What matches can you win with small pox that you can't win without it?
None.
Its a swingy card that hits big and misses just as big without deck space devoted to break symmetry. 8rack does not naturally break the symmetry with any kind of reliability. If you play it here you are just gambling with it, and the odds that the card fails are much higher than the odds it succeeds.
What matches can you win with small pox that you can't win without it?
None.
Its a swingy card that hits big and misses just as big without deck space devoted to break symmetry. 8rack does not naturally break the symmetry with any kind of reliability. If you play it here you are just gambling with it, and the odds that the card fails are much higher than the odds it succeeds.
Its really not a gamble if you augment the deck to work with it. Sure 8Rack doesn't break the symmetry but it does give you a small advantage. At worst its a glorified edict that stalls out the game, you never really "lose big". I disagree with you saying it doesn't help against any matchups. It really helps against decks with high mana costs like tron.
After finding that Orzhov control deck the other day it stimulated the deck builder inside me to try a white splash for 8rack. I came up with this list, what do you guys think? What other cards are good for the white splash?
This next list was meant to be a joke but after seeing it I kinda want to try it out lol. My main 8rack deck is BR so I thought I would try applying the white treatment here too.
"Smallpox is just a removal with synergy in a bridgeless build." So you are saying you are running a BB sorcery speed spell for removal? This is what your entire argument is based on? I hate to break it to you, but no matter how much supposed synergy it has with the rest of the deck, which as we will see below is not that much to begin with, basing your removal on a sorery speed edict effect that can't even selectively kill the creatures you want it to kill is... not the best idea.
Smallpox build is aimed to keep opponents board clean, it has 14 removals, 14 discards (some of them are discard and removal depending your choise), so edict effects are quite effective. Oblivion Stone is a 8 mana wrath and Maelstrom Pulse is a 3 mana sorcery removal.. Speed and mana cost dont matter if card is good in a deck.
Btw the fact that bridgeless build is aimed at keeping opponents board clean eliminates meaning of Bridge in the deck. If I already keep board clean (atleast I kill my opponent faster) why would I need Bridge?
Perhaps it transforms useless cards into discard. But so does the other half of any 8Rack deck? Raven's Crime, Liliana of the Veil, Pack-mothertrucking-Rat, they all do a better job of that. It's true that it hinders their mana base, but I already gave you numerous examples of how most decks just don't care that much about losing one land. It hurts them, but not as much as you think. So... instead of vague statements like "it hinders their manabase", try telling me how exactly that matters. I'm not saying it doesn't but I'd like concrete examples. And lastly - yes, it does trade resources. They can lose as many cards as they want, I don't want to live in a world where I lose 3 cards and am not winning the game on the spot.
First there are no Pack Rats in this build. Second if anybody played Tom Ross's list extensively he would have known that sometimes it floods, even with all Lilianas, RavensCrimes and Smallpoxes. So cutting Smallpoxes would make this deck a lot less consistent. I even cut one Swamp for one Funeral Charm. And I try to never side out RavensCrime because it handles flooding best.
As to how Smallpox hinders manabase I think concrete examples would be superfluous and trivial. I would just mention that people tend to discard lands, play multiple colors and dont take into account land destruction when they design their deck's manacurve.
Here I also have to protest. Every single remotely successful Infect list has has the Caryatid main deck, not even close. I don't know what weird versions of the deck you are playing against but it is by no means a sideboard card. It's true, losing Hierarch is a big deal, but not half as big as losing the actual win conditions, especially when it's a Blighted Agents. And... again, no, it's far from "okay" if it doesn't do anything else, because then you are playing sorcery speed removal which can't kill the thing you want on demand.
I opened mtgtop8.com and took a look at succesful ProTour infect decks. I found 6 of them, none of them had Dryad Arbor in main, half of them didn't have it in side. Not to mention these players didn't know Eldrazi is going to be huge. With Eldrazi taking GBx share of metagame there would be even less Dryad Arbors. Aside from killing Glistener Elf and Blighted Agent, Smallpox hurts Inkmoth Nexus a lot. Lets say Infect has green land and Inkmoth Nexus in play, I cast Smallpox, what should they sac, green source or infect land? Either is bad. Or lets say I cast Smallpox, they start their turn wih Forest and Inkmoth, they add another Forest and activate Inkmoth. Now they can't pump it, because they dont have mana for protection. Sometimes Infect starts a game with one land and Glistener Elf or Noble Hierarch in hand, Smallpox is a disaster here.
The only true part here is that playing Smallpoxes destroys a creature, which technically brings you closer to clearing their board. However: they are unlikely to have cards in hand by Turn 2 and later, their explosive turns come down on the board ages before you have the mana to cast a Smallpox and losing an Arcbound Ravager is part of their gameplan, so you are playing right into that.
I feel Smallpox is good vs Affinity but im not an expert in this deck. Maybe some good affinity player can say is he feeling comfortable to play against 4 Smallpox, 4 Dismember, 2 Funeral Charm (I play 3) and 7 Inquisition accompanied by 8 Racks
Wait... it's not good against Tron (which it is, at least better than most other cards in the deck) and then... how exactly is it better? That's the very definition of a "non-argument".
It's better to have Smallpox than Bridge because Bridge is almost useless. Smallpox doesnt put us in winning position but atleast it slows Tron down.
How on earth is AEther Vial card disadvantage? Please, I need somebody to explain to me how cheating creatures into play without paying mana and on instand speed is card disadvantage. Please, anybody, break it down for me. Also, no, paying 1 extra mana is in fact impossible when it's turn 2 and you are casting Smallpox. Remember, I am primarily basing this analysis on casting it in the early game (not necessaril on Turn 2 but that's when it's supposed to hut the most, right?) and it's reprecussions on the game state. Also I feel if Smallpox is a 1-for-1 trade then you are doing somewhing wrong, but admittedly I'm not a Smallpox expert.
Tom Ross's build is an attrition deck. All of our cards (no exception) trade for their cards. By means of Liliana of the Veil, Smallpox and Raven's Crime we can transform any our card into discard and lands into land destruction. We have some card-advantage cards to improve our attrition-based strategy and to make it not fizzle vs card-advatage strategies. When both players are down to no cards in hand and lets say 4 permanents, 3 lands and The Rack for us and 4 lands for our opponent, he starts to die.
As to Aether Vial, its not exactly a card disadvantage, but it resembles Simian Spirit Guide's effect. It just produces mana. And while lands are necessary evil, Merfolks dont need Vial to get a win in our matchup. Especially playing second or third Vial is a mistake vs us, that just reduces their hand size, meaning we have to devote less resources to activate Rack.
What matches can you win with small pox that you can't win without it?
None.
Its a swingy card that hits big and misses just as big without deck space devoted to break symmetry. 8rack does not naturally break the symmetry with any kind of reliability. If you play it here you are just gambling with it, and the odds that the card fails are much higher than the odds it succeeds.
Thats not an argument.
No competitive deck has a card without which this deck cant win particular matchup.
Burn can win without Goblin Guide, Splinter Twin can win without Splinter Twin
After finding that Orzhov control deck the other day it stimulated the deck builder inside me to try a white splash for 8rack. I came up with this list, what do you guys think? What other cards are good for the white splash?
This list looks a lot like mine. Let met tell you Smallpox is just incredible in a deck with Lingering Souls and Flagstones. It does 'break the symmetry' for those who think you need to in order to have success with smallpox. With Urborg and Fetid Heath, it happens quite often to cast Smallpox T2 while not even loosing a land. I'm currently playing Ensnaring Bridge main due to Eldrazi but after April I could see it go to Sb. I bought some Myth Realized, but haven't tried them yet.
About smallpox, this is something I wrote on another thread before OotG (wasn't 8rack but still relevant)
Infect 5/5
Smallpox is an amazing card for this matchup, they usually run a low number of lands and a low number of creatures, smallpox in opening hand is devastating, plus, they can't appostle's blessing. Downside, feed their grave for become immense.
Bogle 5/5
goes through Leyline of sanctity and totem armor, best card against the deck.
Burn 4.5/5
They usually run a low number of lands and sometimes keep risky 1 land hand. Won several game where they were stock with 0 land for few turns. Also, they often have a creature on T1 which makes smallpox a great T2 spell.
Merfolk 3.5/5
Smallpox is great against most aggro deck but especially against merfolk as you can sacrifice the land enchanted by Spreading seas. Downside, Cursecatcher sometimes makes it impossible to cast early on.
R/G Tron 3.5/5
Often hits a tron land when in opening hand, which is always nice. Downside, they never have a creature on turn 2.
Bx Eldrazi 3.5/5
It's almost always good agaisnt Eldrazi, you can often hit Wasteland Stranger +a land early on and they hate Land destruction, it also hits Ulamog. Downside, Blight Herder's Token.
Affinity 3/5
Good against affinity early on as they often keep 1 land hand and they always have a creature to sac (can also SOMETIMES hit etched) . Downside, less good late game when they have multiple creatures.
Zoo 3/5
Can be tricky against zoo if you can't open up with targeted discard. A free turn two loxodon smiter is just game over. However, if you know it's clear and hits Ramp or nacatl and land, it's really great.
I side it out Against Abzan (lingering Souls and Kitchen Finks), Living End because it's living End and Token.
I just want to add something about Infect. If you cast it on T2 and they decide to fetch Dryad, they end up with 0 lands on T3. Not sute this is where they want to be. On the otherhand, if you have your smallpox late game and they have a fetch open you definitely want to have another removal in hand. Overall, the card is just awesome against infect both on the draw and on the play.
My goal is to be hellbent, have bridge, lotv, and racks on the field, and maybe three lands (probably tossing extras to raven's crime). How grindy of a game are we going for? Wreckage would be nice there, but grindy games tend to be in our favor already.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
@Esperino I tried the BR 8rack list you posted, or very nearly the same. I found myself wanting a Blood Crypt to fetch Red with Marsh Flats. I'm testing 3 Rise/Fall and 3 Blightning now in an attempt to smooth out the curve a bit. I'm not convinced Rakdos' Return and Mogis are worth the slots. I have been pleasantly surprised by Temple of Malice. I'm sure you tested Rix Maadi and found it wanting, but it has been excellent for me so far. Anyway, great list and thanks for posting!
This must have been a mistake when porting the deck online, there is in fact supposed to be a Blood Crypt in there, my bad (added to the linked version to properly reflect the deck I have next to me right now). Also, while I am a huge fan of Rise//Fall, I just want to remind you that it can brick from time to time, making it unreliable (which many people seem to be OK with for some reason, but personally I am not). It's mostly fine, but I don't really feel the need to play more two-drops. One main difference between this version and most others is that you want to play any lands you get (aside from Dakmor, of course). The lack of two-drops is somewhat offset by being able to play two one-drops, which is a common line for 8Rack anyway.
Mogis is fantastic as a late-game card, because he is a 9th Rack with a significant upside, one that ignores the oponent's hand size and most importantly, he can't be removed from the board. The only card that deas with him is a Celestial Purge, rarely seen in white sideboards. Rakdos' Return is also great when you have developed your mana, usually getting in for X=2 or 3 is enough to put the lid on any game. As for Rixa Maadi... he doesn't produce coloured mana and it isn't fetchable. If you ran this exact configuration you would stumble onto hands that have a Rix and another land and can't have BB or BR on turn 2. My only regret towards the land package is not having space for more Urborgs, but Temple is just too good and sifting through bad topdecks, essentially providing additional draws. What I'm really curious about is Abbot of Kheral Keep, but he is super bad on turn 2 and with the large amount of 3-drops he looks more like a turn 5 play, which does not look appealing at all.
Leyline is a possibility, what would you suggest I take out? Maybe the bridges? I don't run PtE because it would negate the land desteuction cause by smallpox. Ramping my opponent is definitely not what I want to do. I'm fairly confident in the creature removal I'm already running.
i dont really know what to take out for leyline if its a creature heavy burn maybe i would take out some lingering souls, or from everything a bit, like 1 bridge, 1 souls, 1 thoughtseize... ok yes i understand that path of exile and smallpox does not work.
i have put a list together, without smallpox, as i like the white splash but have no experience with the pox-road. I would not suggest to take out bridges. Bridges main should be good against eldrazi? but leyline in sideboard against burn may be somehow helpful. But i dont really know if leyline is that good against burn because they often play much creatures also. I like the white splash xkenshin has in the primer, with timely reinforcements for lifegain against burn in sideboard. I found it dangerous to have the legendary land flagstones of trokair 4 times in the main board, which only produces white (havent tryed it though). I have not played it but i would think that you may often have mana problems with a landbase of 7 legendary lands (including urborg). Here the list i try out at the moment in cocatrice(sideboard is open). Its sad i cant take the myth realized because its really good, but i think he does not work well with bridge. 1/1 creatures at the moment seem the way to go for me. I have a bit less discard but i dont liked the funeral charm so i replaced it with timely reinforcements instead. Also i want to try running no creature removal at all, dont know if it works lol. I also thought to take a very damage-intensive mana-base which costs me much life, so the timely reinforcements would aways give me 6 life when i cast it..
Let us know how that list works out for you. As for Flagstones of Trokair being legendary it isn't really that big a deal. If you have to sac one to the legendary rule then you can just replace it with a basic plains or a Godless Shrine.
Hey guys. First time posting here. I've been playing 8 rack for pretty long against my cousins. It's my favourite deck because its niche, different and quite formidable against the top decks.
So when the Eldrazi hype started my 8rack was able to beat my cousin's B\W Eldrazi deck easily. With the usual way it does, discards, bridge, lily and racks.
As you know MTG is an evolving game, so my cousin starts to improve his deck overall to deal with 8rack.
The 2 main things that he brought in to beat me were Endbringer & Oblivion ring.
Endbringer is a card in his main, gave him card advantage and it could kill me over the bridge. Oblivion ring is a card he sideboarded in to make it harder for me, exile my bridge or lily. The card which screws me up the most was Endbringer. If he have an eye of ugin he could search for one more too.
I played 4 games with him and only won 1 with packrats and because he kept a bad hand with no eldrazi lands.
Solutions i can only think of were surgical extraction and pithing needle. Painter's servant is too expensive now and im thinking if there are other alternatives and just sharing with you guys some info. My deck list is very similar to the standard 8rack build you guys use nothing out of the ordinary.
4x liliana
4x Raven's crime
4x thoughtseize
4x inquistition
4x wrench mind
4x the rack
3x shrieking affliction
1x slaughter pact
2x dismember
1x victim of the night
2x pack rat
4x ensnaring bridge
The problem you are experiencing is one that 8Rack is not intended to overcome. It's easy to sideboard against 8Rack and ruin your chances. Your pal knows you are playing 8Rack and thus he knows he is in no danger of getting burned out in 4 turns. Thus worldbringer main and hate cards coming in after game 1.
Haha yeah i guess so. But nevermind.. i had a match with him again. The 8Rack did well. 1st game won by the usual discard bridge lotv rack. Was a long tough 1st game. despite lotv ultimate, he was still fighting back but eventually conceded.
2nd game i decided to sub out bridge to try a different strategy, i guess due to poor side board choices i got overrun by eldrazis.
3rd game went like this. turn 1 Thoughtseize his removal, turn 2 pack rat and next few turns just more pack rats after that. Won with pack rats.
I guess sometimes there are really bad days for 8rack and some good days. One thing i realize is how good pack rats really is. At one point i was deciding smallpox or packrats. But packrats have won me quite a number of games. So yeah.. packrats for the win for me.
I feel smallpox is good in the list because the only creature I run is nyx, it's hard for people to get around the card. Do I believe the card should a 4 of? I think that's silly. People see "discard" in the card and assume it's for 8rack, but it's entirely situational. I run 2 as an extra help towards certain decks, and it helps take out big boys of eldrazi and the lands that make them so OP.
Went 4-0 tonight at local FNM, beat: burn, uw control, junk and deck with sun titan and emeria, all matches 2-0 win (first time in my life with this deck)
I'm thinking about this version with white splash in main only for sb-options and red splash for Terminate and Rix Maadi in main.
24 lands for smallpox, raven's crime options
Lili and Rix Maadi + sb wear/tear for Leyline
And I want to try Fish+Timely Reinforcements against burn and infect instead Bridges
But I'm think that sb is uncomplete, need tests. I played a few times with RG Tron (newer win) and U-Tron (20% wins). It's terrible, even after sb.
Any suggestions?
Went 4-0 tonight at local FNM, beat: burn, uw control, junk and deck with sun titan and emeria, all matches 2-0 win (first time in my life with this deck)
I'm thinking about this version with white splash in main only for sb-options and red splash for Terminate and Rix Maadi in main.
24 lands for smallpox, raven's crime options
Lili and Rix Maadi + sb wear/tear for Leyline
And I want to try Fish+Timely Reinforcements against burn and infect instead Bridges
But I'm think that sb is uncomplete, need tests. I played a few times with RG Tron (newer win) and U-Tron (20% wins). It's terrible, even after sb.
Any suggestions?
After leaving 8 rack during the treasure cruise era, I've come back to this deck and have missed it so much. I have changed a few things from the stock list, and took down a small sanctioned event at the local shop yesterday:
I am running smallpox instead of ensnaring bridge.
25 (!) lands to make sure my 3 drops are cast on time. 3 of these are GQ, which could be greedy.
0 pack rats. With pox in the list and no bridge, Tasigur slotted in as a cheap threat and he can put a quick clock on games.
Gatekeeper of Malakir out of the board overachieved for me. I know I'm loading up on edict effects, but he removes a threat then can block any additional threats left over to buy time to land another removal or a Lily.
I live in the Detroit area, and would take the following list in a heartbeat next week if I was able to go
My sideboard probably needs work, but yesterday I ran:
3x Gatekeeper of malakir
4x sun droplet (open to change, considering pharika's cure)
4x surgical extraction
2x Flaying tendrils
2x nyxathid
I'd be eager to see what those of you with more experience have with the deck think about these changes. I know the most controversial thing is likely the pox vs bridge debate, but a few things to note that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Smallpox vs infect is backbreaking, no other way to say it. Someone countered with dryad arbor off a fetch, but with 3x GQ, I had a play where i poxed on T3, he fetched arbor, I GQ arbor before pox resolves. The threat of become immense may seem imminent with all the cards in the GY, but without and infect creature on board and no mana to cast immense after activating and swinging with inkmoth, letting lily hit and take over the game on T4. I played 7-8 matches against this guy (a friend) and didn't drop a single game. Pox felt like cheating, and I'm betting on the metagame picking up more infect players after a likely eldrazi ban soon.
Dark confidant from jund is a horrible card to sit across from for even a single turn. If we are on the draw and my T1 IOK reveals TWO bobs, its getting played next turn (assuming no extraction shenanigans, which shouldn't be brought in). Pox allowed me to take one, let him play the second on T2, then pox it. I removed the problematic cards and furthered my gameplan in one card. The fear here is goyf, but with lily, pox, VoN, and sb gatekeepers this deck seems to have plenty of removal. Also, against 3 color decks, pox can also lead to them missing color requirements, which shouldn't be overlooked.
Flaying Tendrils is something I haven't seen discussed yet. I really like that against the abzan company list, since it shuts off things like finks recursion or eternal witness getting things back. it also seems good against affinity, thought I don't have the playtest experience in that regard.
I like extraction over something like leyline of the void just to get rid of tron or eldrazi lands (7 sources MD to kill their lands on T2) in addition to hitting something like finks to shut off infinite combos.
25 lands and (7 colorless) seems like a lot, but I'm playing pox and need more lands. I have about the same about of black sources as traditional lists, Urborg stil shows up to let them produces B, and GQ shores up bad matchups and kills problematic cards (Tron, eldrazi lands, inkmoth, dryad arbor, etc). As we all know, Raven's crime can help if we end up flooding.
You people seriously need to stop cutting those Thoughtseizes. If you want to free up some room for more bad things, the second-best card in your deck is not where to start from.
Also, @MystDragoon21, you will never use the draw ability on Tasigur and he doesn't trade with Reality Smasher. If winning Legacy decks (with blue in them!) choose run Gurmag Angler instead, I think you can find a way to make him work in your Modern deck.
game 1 he plays a land and bird of paradise. I play out an inquisition and he shows no lands, 1 birds of paradise, resto, bolt, 2 chord of calling. I take a bird.
and turn 2 he misses the land drop passes back, I small pox and he eventually gets a land a number of turns later after its too late.
side- +2 lifebane zombie +2 deathmark, - 4 wrench mind (too worried about wilt leaf, smiter, baloth)
game 2 not really a lot to say. he does land pass and I play a thoughtseize and he reveals a painfully slow hand which included a path to exile that he kept in. Basically just a normal 8 rack attrition game and I play lifebane after he discards the path and that seals it with a Liliana on board.
round 2 vs flash
game 1 I win the roll and choose to draw and he gives me the weirdest look ive experienced. he plays out a colonnade on t1 and I thoughtseize to see mana leak, 2 cryptic, 2 land and sphinx rev. I take the mana leak and wrench mind on the next back to back turns. and he never recovers.
game 2 I have an awkward hand of rack, shrieking affliction, 2 urborg, mutavault small pox, lifebane zombie. he does another t1 colonnade, I just play a urborg and rack and pass. he plays a land and I play mutavault and a topdecked inquisition showing a spellsnare, and no other counters and a resto angel. take the spell snare and pass. then it was pretty easy going into lifebane taking the resto (putting me down to 2 lands having to play the other urborg). into small pox. and affliction
round 3 vs titan shift.
game 1 This was a pretty satisfying match considering between rounds I seemed to be the talk of the tournament that an 8rack player was present, with him making it well known to people he had never lost a match to 8 rack.... I'm not really sure how unless he has never played against it before seems like an extremely good match up for us? I win the die roll and choose to draw, he plays the GR tango land and passes. a thought seize showed explore, search for tomorrow, 2 primeval titan, valakut, mountain. I take the explore. he plays mountain and suspends search for tomorrow. I funeral charm and inquisition leaving him with 2 titans and valakut. he plays the valakut then I funeral charm and wrench mind. the game goes on for some time but mutavault beats and small pox attrition gets there.
game 2 I keep and hand with rack, affliction, lifebane, wrench mind, Liliana, 2 swamp.
he plays another GR tango land t1 and passes, I draw a land and play a rack. he plays khalini heart expedition and land to pass. I draw another wrench mind and really think about casting one but i choose to wait for lifebane zombie to see if the random discard spells are clear or not. so i play the affliction and pass. He plays a land and hard casts search for tomorrow and passes. I play my 3rd land and lifebane and he reveals a baloth, and titan and land. next turn he plays a land and sacs the expedition, I play out Liliana and he discards a land and i ravens crime to make him discard the last card in his hand which was the titan. the 2 rack effects make quick work of him before he can top deck a scapeshift.
round 4- I want to play it out but the other 3 X-0 want to draw in rather than play for position so i agree.
round 5 ID
Top 8 paired against merfolk and i know he is on it.
game 1 he plays a mutavault and athervial and passes. I play a rack and pass. he plays a land and vials in a curse catch. I play a topdecked targeted discard spell and he reveals a hand full of lords.... I try to stabilize but he ends up having 4 lands (2 mutavaults) and a lord out to beat me.
game 2 I choose to be on the draw. he plays a mutavault and passes. I thoughtseize to show a chalice of the void, 2 lords, island, spreading seas, merrow. obviously take chalice,
he plays the island and spreading seas my swamp. i play an urborg and wrench mind... He plays his lords one at a time and I disfigure them but I cant ever find a rack effect. mutavault beats get him down eventually. I had a Liliana out so he had to keep swinging at her so I wouldn't ultimate, and he went a few turns between threats letting me keep her ticking up.
side- after seeing chalice -3 disfigure, +3 dismember
game 3. I ask if he will play or draw and mulls it over for at least 5 minutes. he decides to be on the play (sweet!).
I keep an all in hand of 2 urborg, mutavault, 2 smallpox, inquisition, Liliana. he plays a island and passes, I play out a top decked swamp and inqusuiton, he shows me island, silvergill, chalice, 2 spreading sea, I take the chalice hoping to bait out the seas knowing i have double urborg. He plays his island and spreading seas the swamp, I play an urborg and smallpox, discarding my Liliana, he plays a island and spreading seas me again, I play out the 2nd urborg and small pox again. he is stuck on 1 land and passes. I also start missing land drops and get rack on consecutive plays but he has enough cards in ahnd to not take damage, he eventually hits land drops and plays out running silver gills making threats but keeping his hand full. I never find more lands and he gets me...... maybe that hand was too all in? This is my th tournament with the deck and ive won 2 fnms with it and top 8'd this super IQ so its showing some promises and I think its pretty fun to play.
end notes?
The lifebane zombies were questionable at the start of the tournament but I don't think id leave home without them again they seem pretty great in any G or W match up and are on par with our synergy, its basically a 2 for 1 (threat and exile). The languish is supposed to be damanation, I just haven't got mine yet. Siphon life was just for burn nothing else so it will probably be on the cut list if I find something i like better. Considering cutting languish for a 2nd surgical extraction, but not sure ill do that until aftet the april ban.. A lot of people asked me why I don't play ensnaring bridge ( i seen its been discussed in detail extensively in this forum) and I just cant find cards I want to cut and I'm afraid of dead cards in the main against some match ups ( yeah dismember can be dead but it has more use than bridge in this spot i feel.)on the day, only losing 2 games total felt pretty good. Didn't win but I very much had the chance to. Also Do the majority of you prefer to be on the draw with the pox build?
kind of a rough write up and pretty vague I know, Just wanted to share my success...
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None.
Its a swingy card that hits big and misses just as big without deck space devoted to break symmetry. 8rack does not naturally break the symmetry with any kind of reliability. If you play it here you are just gambling with it, and the odds that the card fails are much higher than the odds it succeeds.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
4 Fetid Heath
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Godless Shrine
2 Plains
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Swamp
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
Instants (4)
4 Dismember
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
4 Wrench Mind
4 Lingering Souls
Enchantments (5)
2 Myth Realized
3 Shrieking Affliction
Artifacts (3)
3 The Rack
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Flaying Tendrils
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Sundering Growth
3 Stony Silence
This next list was meant to be a joke but after seeing it I kinda want to try it out lol. My main 8rack deck is BR so I thought I would try applying the white treatment here too.
4 Arid Mesa
2 Blood Crypt
4 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Sacred Foundry
3 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Instants (5)
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
4 Thoughtseize
4 Smallpox
4 Wrench Mind
3 Lingering Souls
Enchantments (5)
2 Myth Realized
3 Shrieking Affliction
Artifacts (3)
3 The Rack
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Wear // Tear
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Stony Silence
3 Boom // Bust
3 Anger of the Gods
What do you guys think?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Btw the fact that bridgeless build is aimed at keeping opponents board clean eliminates meaning of Bridge in the deck. If I already keep board clean (atleast I kill my opponent faster) why would I need Bridge?
First there are no Pack Rats in this build. Second if anybody played Tom Ross's list extensively he would have known that sometimes it floods, even with all Lilianas, RavensCrimes and Smallpoxes. So cutting Smallpoxes would make this deck a lot less consistent. I even cut one Swamp for one Funeral Charm. And I try to never side out RavensCrime because it handles flooding best.
As to how Smallpox hinders manabase I think concrete examples would be superfluous and trivial. I would just mention that people tend to discard lands, play multiple colors and dont take into account land destruction when they design their deck's manacurve.
I opened mtgtop8.com and took a look at succesful ProTour infect decks. I found 6 of them, none of them had Dryad Arbor in main, half of them didn't have it in side. Not to mention these players didn't know Eldrazi is going to be huge. With Eldrazi taking GBx share of metagame there would be even less Dryad Arbors. Aside from killing Glistener Elf and Blighted Agent, Smallpox hurts Inkmoth Nexus a lot. Lets say Infect has green land and Inkmoth Nexus in play, I cast Smallpox, what should they sac, green source or infect land? Either is bad. Or lets say I cast Smallpox, they start their turn wih Forest and Inkmoth, they add another Forest and activate Inkmoth. Now they can't pump it, because they dont have mana for protection. Sometimes Infect starts a game with one land and Glistener Elf or Noble Hierarch in hand, Smallpox is a disaster here.
I feel Smallpox is good vs Affinity but im not an expert in this deck. Maybe some good affinity player can say is he feeling comfortable to play against 4 Smallpox, 4 Dismember, 2 Funeral Charm (I play 3) and 7 Inquisition accompanied by 8 Racks
It's better to have Smallpox than Bridge because Bridge is almost useless. Smallpox doesnt put us in winning position but atleast it slows Tron down.
Tom Ross's build is an attrition deck. All of our cards (no exception) trade for their cards. By means of Liliana of the Veil, Smallpox and Raven's Crime we can transform any our card into discard and lands into land destruction. We have some card-advantage cards to improve our attrition-based strategy and to make it not fizzle vs card-advatage strategies. When both players are down to no cards in hand and lets say 4 permanents, 3 lands and The Rack for us and 4 lands for our opponent, he starts to die.
As to Aether Vial, its not exactly a card disadvantage, but it resembles Simian Spirit Guide's effect. It just produces mana. And while lands are necessary evil, Merfolks dont need Vial to get a win in our matchup. Especially playing second or third Vial is a mistake vs us, that just reduces their hand size, meaning we have to devote less resources to activate Rack.
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
No competitive deck has a card without which this deck cant win particular matchup.
Burn can win without Goblin Guide, Splinter Twin can win without Splinter Twin
G Green Stompy
RG Shamans
UB Mill
UG Infect
WUBRG Slivers!
This list looks a lot like mine. Let met tell you Smallpox is just incredible in a deck with Lingering Souls and Flagstones. It does 'break the symmetry' for those who think you need to in order to have success with smallpox. With Urborg and Fetid Heath, it happens quite often to cast Smallpox T2 while not even loosing a land. I'm currently playing Ensnaring Bridge main due to Eldrazi but after April I could see it go to Sb. I bought some Myth Realized, but haven't tried them yet.
About smallpox, this is something I wrote on another thread before OotG (wasn't 8rack but still relevant)
Infect 5/5
Smallpox is an amazing card for this matchup, they usually run a low number of lands and a low number of creatures, smallpox in opening hand is devastating, plus, they can't appostle's blessing. Downside, feed their grave for become immense.
Bogle 5/5
goes through Leyline of sanctity and totem armor, best card against the deck.
Burn 4.5/5
They usually run a low number of lands and sometimes keep risky 1 land hand. Won several game where they were stock with 0 land for few turns. Also, they often have a creature on T1 which makes smallpox a great T2 spell.
Merfolk 3.5/5
Smallpox is great against most aggro deck but especially against merfolk as you can sacrifice the land enchanted by Spreading seas. Downside, Cursecatcher sometimes makes it impossible to cast early on.
R/G Tron 3.5/5
Often hits a tron land when in opening hand, which is always nice. Downside, they never have a creature on turn 2.
Bx Eldrazi 3.5/5
It's almost always good agaisnt Eldrazi, you can often hit Wasteland Stranger +a land early on and they hate Land destruction, it also hits Ulamog. Downside, Blight Herder's Token.
Affinity 3/5
Good against affinity early on as they often keep 1 land hand and they always have a creature to sac (can also SOMETIMES hit etched) . Downside, less good late game when they have multiple creatures.
Zoo 3/5
Can be tricky against zoo if you can't open up with targeted discard. A free turn two loxodon smiter is just game over. However, if you know it's clear and hits Ramp or nacatl and land, it's really great.
I side it out Against Abzan (lingering Souls and Kitchen Finks), Living End because it's living End and Token.
I just want to add something about Infect. If you cast it on T2 and they decide to fetch Dryad, they end up with 0 lands on T3. Not sute this is where they want to be. On the otherhand, if you have your smallpox late game and they have a fetch open you definitely want to have another removal in hand. Overall, the card is just awesome against infect both on the draw and on the play.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Mogis is fantastic as a late-game card, because he is a 9th Rack with a significant upside, one that ignores the oponent's hand size and most importantly, he can't be removed from the board. The only card that deas with him is a Celestial Purge, rarely seen in white sideboards. Rakdos' Return is also great when you have developed your mana, usually getting in for X=2 or 3 is enough to put the lid on any game. As for Rixa Maadi... he doesn't produce coloured mana and it isn't fetchable. If you ran this exact configuration you would stumble onto hands that have a Rix and another land and can't have BB or BR on turn 2. My only regret towards the land package is not having space for more Urborgs, but Temple is just too good and sifting through bad topdecks, essentially providing additional draws. What I'm really curious about is Abbot of Kheral Keep, but he is super bad on turn 2 and with the large amount of 3-drops he looks more like a turn 5 play, which does not look appealing at all.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
Haha yeah i guess so. But nevermind.. i had a match with him again. The 8Rack did well. 1st game won by the usual discard bridge lotv rack. Was a long tough 1st game. despite lotv ultimate, he was still fighting back but eventually conceded.
2nd game i decided to sub out bridge to try a different strategy, i guess due to poor side board choices i got overrun by eldrazis.
3rd game went like this. turn 1 Thoughtseize his removal, turn 2 pack rat and next few turns just more pack rats after that. Won with pack rats.
I guess sometimes there are really bad days for 8rack and some good days. One thing i realize is how good pack rats really is. At one point i was deciding smallpox or packrats. But packrats have won me quite a number of games. So yeah.. packrats for the win for me.
Core:
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Raven's Crime
3x Wrench Mind
4x The Rack
4x Shrieking Affliction
4x Liliana of the Veil
Flex:
1x Blackmail
2x Funeral Charm
3x Dismember
3x Nyxathid
2x Smallpox
13x Swamp
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Mutavault
2x Dakmor Salvage
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Deathmark
2x Disfigure
2x Waste Not
1x Bile Blight
1x Damnation
1x Leyline of the Void
2x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1x Murderous Cut
1x Nihil Spellbomb
Very similar to the stock list.
I feel smallpox is good in the list because the only creature I run is nyx, it's hard for people to get around the card. Do I believe the card should a 4 of? I think that's silly. People see "discard" in the card and assume it's for 8rack, but it's entirely situational. I run 2 as an extra help towards certain decks, and it helps take out big boys of eldrazi and the lands that make them so OP.
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Godless Shrine
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
2 Mutavault
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Wrench Mind
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
4 Terminate
4 Shrieking Affliction
4 The Rack
4 Ensnaring Bridge
sb
1 Darkblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Wear/Tear
1 Nyxathid
1 Stony Silence
I'm thinking about this version with white splash in main only for sb-options and red splash for Terminate and Rix Maadi in main.
24 lands for smallpox, raven's crime options
Lili and Rix Maadi + sb wear/tear for Leyline
And I want to try Fish+Timely Reinforcements against burn and infect instead Bridges
But I'm think that sb is uncomplete, need tests. I played a few times with RG Tron (newer win) and U-Tron (20% wins). It's terrible, even after sb.
Any suggestions?
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
I am running smallpox instead of ensnaring bridge.
25 (!) lands to make sure my 3 drops are cast on time. 3 of these are GQ, which could be greedy.
0 pack rats. With pox in the list and no bridge, Tasigur slotted in as a cheap threat and he can put a quick clock on games.
Gatekeeper of Malakir out of the board overachieved for me. I know I'm loading up on edict effects, but he removes a threat then can block any additional threats left over to buy time to land another removal or a Lily.
I live in the Detroit area, and would take the following list in a heartbeat next week if I was able to go
4x IOK
3x TS
4x Raven's crime
3x Wrench mind
4x smallpox
3x Victim of night
4x LoTV
2x Tasigur
4x Rack
4x Shrieking Affliciton
4x Mutavault
4x Urborg
3x GQ
1x Dakmor Salvage
13x Swamp
My sideboard probably needs work, but yesterday I ran:
3x Gatekeeper of malakir
4x sun droplet (open to change, considering pharika's cure)
4x surgical extraction
2x Flaying tendrils
2x nyxathid
I'd be eager to see what those of you with more experience have with the deck think about these changes. I know the most controversial thing is likely the pox vs bridge debate, but a few things to note that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Smallpox vs infect is backbreaking, no other way to say it. Someone countered with dryad arbor off a fetch, but with 3x GQ, I had a play where i poxed on T3, he fetched arbor, I GQ arbor before pox resolves. The threat of become immense may seem imminent with all the cards in the GY, but without and infect creature on board and no mana to cast immense after activating and swinging with inkmoth, letting lily hit and take over the game on T4. I played 7-8 matches against this guy (a friend) and didn't drop a single game. Pox felt like cheating, and I'm betting on the metagame picking up more infect players after a likely eldrazi ban soon.
Dark confidant from jund is a horrible card to sit across from for even a single turn. If we are on the draw and my T1 IOK reveals TWO bobs, its getting played next turn (assuming no extraction shenanigans, which shouldn't be brought in). Pox allowed me to take one, let him play the second on T2, then pox it. I removed the problematic cards and furthered my gameplan in one card. The fear here is goyf, but with lily, pox, VoN, and sb gatekeepers this deck seems to have plenty of removal. Also, against 3 color decks, pox can also lead to them missing color requirements, which shouldn't be overlooked.
Flaying Tendrils is something I haven't seen discussed yet. I really like that against the abzan company list, since it shuts off things like finks recursion or eternal witness getting things back. it also seems good against affinity, thought I don't have the playtest experience in that regard.
I like extraction over something like leyline of the void just to get rid of tron or eldrazi lands (7 sources MD to kill their lands on T2) in addition to hitting something like finks to shut off infinite combos.
25 lands and (7 colorless) seems like a lot, but I'm playing pox and need more lands. I have about the same about of black sources as traditional lists, Urborg stil shows up to let them produces B, and GQ shores up bad matchups and kills problematic cards (Tron, eldrazi lands, inkmoth, dryad arbor, etc). As we all know, Raven's crime can help if we end up flooding.
Thoughts?
Also, @MystDragoon21, you will never use the draw ability on Tasigur and he doesn't trade with Reality Smasher. If winning Legacy decks (with blue in them!) choose run Gurmag Angler instead, I think you can find a way to make him work in your Modern deck.
4 mutavault
4 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 the rack
4 shrieking affliction
3 dismember
1 languish
2 funeral charm
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 raven's crime
4 smallpox
3 thoughtseize
4 wrench mind
1 languish
3 disfigure
2 lifebane zombie
1 surgical extraction
2 deathmark
2 nyxathid
1 dismember
3 siphon life
round 1 vs kikki chord
game 1 he plays a land and bird of paradise. I play out an inquisition and he shows no lands, 1 birds of paradise, resto, bolt, 2 chord of calling. I take a bird.
and turn 2 he misses the land drop passes back, I small pox and he eventually gets a land a number of turns later after its too late.
side- +2 lifebane zombie +2 deathmark, - 4 wrench mind (too worried about wilt leaf, smiter, baloth)
game 2 not really a lot to say. he does land pass and I play a thoughtseize and he reveals a painfully slow hand which included a path to exile that he kept in. Basically just a normal 8 rack attrition game and I play lifebane after he discards the path and that seals it with a Liliana on board.
round 2 vs flash
game 1 I win the roll and choose to draw and he gives me the weirdest look ive experienced. he plays out a colonnade on t1 and I thoughtseize to see mana leak, 2 cryptic, 2 land and sphinx rev. I take the mana leak and wrench mind on the next back to back turns. and he never recovers.
side- +2 lifebane zombie, +2 nyxathid -3 dismember, -1 languish.
game 2 I have an awkward hand of rack, shrieking affliction, 2 urborg, mutavault small pox, lifebane zombie. he does another t1 colonnade, I just play a urborg and rack and pass. he plays a land and I play mutavault and a topdecked inquisition showing a spellsnare, and no other counters and a resto angel. take the spell snare and pass. then it was pretty easy going into lifebane taking the resto (putting me down to 2 lands having to play the other urborg). into small pox. and affliction
round 3 vs titan shift.
game 1 This was a pretty satisfying match considering between rounds I seemed to be the talk of the tournament that an 8rack player was present, with him making it well known to people he had never lost a match to 8 rack.... I'm not really sure how unless he has never played against it before seems like an extremely good match up for us? I win the die roll and choose to draw, he plays the GR tango land and passes. a thought seize showed explore, search for tomorrow, 2 primeval titan, valakut, mountain. I take the explore. he plays mountain and suspends search for tomorrow. I funeral charm and inquisition leaving him with 2 titans and valakut. he plays the valakut then I funeral charm and wrench mind. the game goes on for some time but mutavault beats and small pox attrition gets there.
side -3 dismember, -1 languish. + 2 lifebane zombie, 2 deathmark.
game 2 I keep and hand with rack, affliction, lifebane, wrench mind, Liliana, 2 swamp.
he plays another GR tango land t1 and passes, I draw a land and play a rack. he plays khalini heart expedition and land to pass. I draw another wrench mind and really think about casting one but i choose to wait for lifebane zombie to see if the random discard spells are clear or not. so i play the affliction and pass. He plays a land and hard casts search for tomorrow and passes. I play my 3rd land and lifebane and he reveals a baloth, and titan and land. next turn he plays a land and sacs the expedition, I play out Liliana and he discards a land and i ravens crime to make him discard the last card in his hand which was the titan. the 2 rack effects make quick work of him before he can top deck a scapeshift.
round 4- I want to play it out but the other 3 X-0 want to draw in rather than play for position so i agree.
round 5 ID
Top 8 paired against merfolk and i know he is on it.
game 1 he plays a mutavault and athervial and passes. I play a rack and pass. he plays a land and vials in a curse catch. I play a topdecked targeted discard spell and he reveals a hand full of lords.... I try to stabilize but he ends up having 4 lands (2 mutavaults) and a lord out to beat me.
side- -3 dismember, -1 funeral charm, +3 disfigure, +1 languish
game 2 I choose to be on the draw. he plays a mutavault and passes. I thoughtseize to show a chalice of the void, 2 lords, island, spreading seas, merrow. obviously take chalice,
he plays the island and spreading seas my swamp. i play an urborg and wrench mind... He plays his lords one at a time and I disfigure them but I cant ever find a rack effect. mutavault beats get him down eventually. I had a Liliana out so he had to keep swinging at her so I wouldn't ultimate, and he went a few turns between threats letting me keep her ticking up.
side- after seeing chalice -3 disfigure, +3 dismember
game 3. I ask if he will play or draw and mulls it over for at least 5 minutes. he decides to be on the play (sweet!).
I keep an all in hand of 2 urborg, mutavault, 2 smallpox, inquisition, Liliana. he plays a island and passes, I play out a top decked swamp and inqusuiton, he shows me island, silvergill, chalice, 2 spreading sea, I take the chalice hoping to bait out the seas knowing i have double urborg. He plays his island and spreading seas the swamp, I play an urborg and smallpox, discarding my Liliana, he plays a island and spreading seas me again, I play out the 2nd urborg and small pox again. he is stuck on 1 land and passes. I also start missing land drops and get rack on consecutive plays but he has enough cards in ahnd to not take damage, he eventually hits land drops and plays out running silver gills making threats but keeping his hand full. I never find more lands and he gets me...... maybe that hand was too all in? This is my th tournament with the deck and ive won 2 fnms with it and top 8'd this super IQ so its showing some promises and I think its pretty fun to play.
end notes?
The lifebane zombies were questionable at the start of the tournament but I don't think id leave home without them again they seem pretty great in any G or W match up and are on par with our synergy, its basically a 2 for 1 (threat and exile). The languish is supposed to be damanation, I just haven't got mine yet. Siphon life was just for burn nothing else so it will probably be on the cut list if I find something i like better. Considering cutting languish for a 2nd surgical extraction, but not sure ill do that until aftet the april ban.. A lot of people asked me why I don't play ensnaring bridge ( i seen its been discussed in detail extensively in this forum) and I just cant find cards I want to cut and I'm afraid of dead cards in the main against some match ups ( yeah dismember can be dead but it has more use than bridge in this spot i feel.)on the day, only losing 2 games total felt pretty good. Didn't win but I very much had the chance to. Also Do the majority of you prefer to be on the draw with the pox build?
kind of a rough write up and pretty vague I know, Just wanted to share my success...