Wind Zendikon isn't necessary because I have 12 mana dorks. I play it as tech, since it lets you go off if you have a Breeding Pool, and you don't have to wait one turn for summoning sickness to clear. Mid-combo, you can stick it on a land (again, hopefully a Breeding Pool) and get more mana and loot once.
On the subject of Zendikons, I think they're worse than mana dorks, because they don't do anything outside the combo. Mana dorks ramp, so you can cycle through your deck for Ascendancy faster. Between 12 dorks and 8 dorks/4 Zendikons I'd pick 12 dorks.
You're right about Dryad Arbor, it's too slow against Liliana and it doesn't tap for green. Should change it to a fetch/Pool/basic Forest.
I think Grapeshot is necessary, it kills for just 2 mana. If you play something like a multicolored X spell as your wincon, you still have to generate enough mana for it. That's not really possible unless you're playing sub-par cards like haste granters (for mana dorks) or Zendikons. Think about it this way, if you play Grapeshot it takes up just 1 slot in your deck, while if you play Zendikons they take up 3-4. Grapeshot is less wasteful.
I play Bolt because there are some things that I want to get rid of permanently, not just bounce (e.g. opposing mana dorks, red Eidolon, assorted hatebears). It might actually be better to go up to 4 Bolts.
Silence, Swan Song, Autumn's Veil are interchangeable as anti-counterspell cards. Silence and Veil beat Counterflux, and Veil is on-color.
I'm not sure how much of each type of counter-hate I should play, so the SB is just a bunch of 1s for now. I think a level-headed (no cute stuff) SB might be:
Eidolon of the Great Revel can be seen in G1, before you've sided in your single-ton bolt.
The deck also does a lot of pain to itself; wishing into a wear//tear for Eidolon costs 4 life (and maybe more for Mana Confluence). Helix only costs you 1 life (+pain).
Good point on Helix, but if I play Helix it would be over Assault//Battery.
I think the plan in G1 against Burn is to just hope that they don't draw Eidolon. It's almost unbeatable, even if you have Helix to wish for. Suppose they drop Eidolon on T2, then you Wish for Helix on T2 and cast it T3. All while they're throwing burn spells at your head, and Eidolon has gotten one hit in. Furthermore, you spent Wish on Helix, so you need to get Ascendancy some other way. Such a situation doesn't look winnable.
Also, if your saying that having 4 Wind Zendikon makes you run into the problem of running out of gas/cantrips and just have too much mana. Is it worth putting in a single Sphinx's Revelation in the board to wish for when you run out of cantrips and have over 8+ mana but not enough to fireball them for lethal? Is it too specific of a situation to be worth it, or is it worth considering?
I've found 1 Past in Flames and 3 Commune with the Gods is enough to prevent running out of cantrips. Commune finds dorks, zendikons, ascendancy, and fuels Treasure Cruise. Between commune and looting its easy enough to dig down to find PiF, you can even discard it when you loot so it doesn't waste space in your hand. The PiF/Delve nonbo is mitigated by all the lands and extra creatures you loot away and the sheer volume of cards going into your GY, each spell adding 2+ cards when going off. Your first cruise tends to eat a good number of spells but by your second cruise, should you need it, you should have a good number of creatures and lands to fuel it. PiF also lets you discard wishes instead of having to hold onto them when looting making it eaiser to put all your wincons in a wishboard.
The crossover point for Sphinx's Rev is 7 mana (at 6 mana, Urban Evolution beats it). Plus 2 mana for Wish, that's 9 mana total. I don't think you can get that high even with Zendikons, unless you resolved a Treasure Cruise or second Ascendancy, in which case you should be fine without having to Wish for Rev.
If you want to play draw spells in the SB, play Scarscale Ritual.
The more I play this deck, the more I find it struggles if it doesn't draw Treasure Cruise during the combo. I should point out that double or even triple Ascendancy IS a legitimate thing, which I overlooked before. Double Ascendancy gets you to Cruise faster - even if you have to throw away a few cantrips, resolving Cruise makes up for that. Adding to that, I'm trying out 4 Cruise now (-1 Zendikon for the 4th Cruise).
The crossover point for Sphinx's Rev is 7 mana (at 6 mana, Urban Evolution beats it). Plus 2 mana for Wish, that's 9 mana total. I don't think you can get that high even with Zendikons, unless you resolved a Treasure Cruise or second Ascendancy, in which case you should be fine without having to Wish for Rev.
If you want to play draw spells in the SB, play Scarscale Ritual.
The more I play this deck, the more I find it struggles if it doesn't draw Treasure Cruise during the combo. I should point out that double or even triple Ascendancy IS a legitimate thing, which I overlooked before. Double Ascendancy gets you to Cruise faster - even if you have to throw away a few cantrips, resolving Cruise makes up for that. Adding to that, I'm trying out 4 Cruise now (-1 Zendikon for the 4th Cruise).
I second scarscale ritual; it's genius. And makes your redundant copies of Glittering Wish pretty amazing during your Combo turn. I almost want to find room for 2x Scarscale in the SB to make Wish relevant during the combo.
I also think Cruise is the strongest card you can draw into during combo. 4 might be right.
I don't approve of Scarscale Ritual, just pointing out that it exists. I don't play Zendikons now, so most of the time I'm at 1 mana (4 if I cast Ascendancy and wait one turn). That's not enough for Wish+Ritual, and I usually end up pitching Wish to Ascendancy once I'm out of lands/mana dorks.
I think Cerulean Wisps and Manamorphose are necessary when playing without Zendikons. They give you a boost of +1 mana; rack up enough of those and you can cast the second Ascendancy, for 2 mana per untap. With Zendikons you can just stick them on a land for the same effect.
izzetmage, how has the low land count and high dork count been treating you? I'm on a 4 Wind Zendikon build for more secure Turn 2-3 kills, more secure one dork kills (often, only Caryatid survives, and I've gone off through multiple dead Zendikons), better board presence post-fizzle, and making decks not tap out when I have 4-5 lands in fear of Ascendancy + Zendikon (+ Probe), but sometimes I wonder whether 20 lands are correct. I'm prone to replacing the 20th land with a 1-cmc cantrip (or at least a noncreature spell)--I don't want to swap it with a dork because I loot dorks during the combo turn, and I fizzle the most often to too little draw. But 20 lands allow for busted starts like Turn 3 Ascendancy through Mana Leak and give me more secure Zendikons...
Also, how good has Cerulean Wisps been against removal-heavy and/or creature-light decks?
How many times have you Turn 2 killed so far? I don't know whether the high dork and cantrip density raises the chance or the low land count lowers it. I've killed on Turn 2 twice so far and passed it by a 3rd time in favour of a more secure Turn 3 kill.
How has no cantrip and no dedicated win con in the Wishboard been treating you? Do you tend to find Grapeshot on time when comboing off? What has the most common mid-combo Wish target been (and your second most common, in case Ascendancy #2 is the most common)?
How has no Wishable kill spell for Linvala been treating you? If you want to boot her, would you use Terminate, Simic Charm, Orzhov Charm, Far // Away, a 3-cmc spell, or some 2--cmc spell I haven't thought of?
For whatever it's worth, Supply // Demand may be a worthile card in here as a 1-2 of maindeck. It serves as an extra tutor, which is never a bad thing, and can also be used to poop out a ton of tokens as a last minute stall tactic or win condition.
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Lectrys:
16 lands and 12 dorks is OK. For comparison purposes, Storm plays 16 lands, Eggs played 17, Elves in Extended played 16-17. All were combo decks that wanted to draw a substantial portion of their library, just like this one. In such a deck, the more lands you play, the higher your chances of fizzling. This deck has the best of both worlds; you have the full 8 cantrips (Sleight/Serum) and 8/12 mana dorks.
I think Wisps is necessary for the mana boost, since I'm not playing Zendikons. I know it fizzles if your opponent removes your mana dork, but if they remove your mana dork you've got bigger problems than that - you can't combo off now unless you draw another one. If you don't play Wisps then you have to play some other cantrip, and spend an even longer period during your combo stuck at 1-2 mana. If you're stuck at 1 mana, Manamorphose is dead in hand. The alternative is waiting a turn instead of trying to combo off with 1 mana floating.
Turn 2 requires a god draw: 2 lands, mana dork, Ascendancy and Probe. There isn't enough redundancy to increase the T2 kill rate, unless you start playing things like Gut Shot or Noxious Revival. T2 kill rate doesn't make or break this deck, though.
No cantrips in the board is fine, I'm playing Wisps over Zendikon so I have more cantrips main. Glittering Wish is discard fodder when I'm comboing off; I can't pay for Wish anyway because I'm not playing Zendikons (= hasty mana dorks mid-combo).
Didn't think about Linvala, thanks for the reminder. I'd use Far//Away; Terminate and Orzhov Charm need black, which is harder to get (especially if your mana dork is Hierarch). Between Simic Charm and Far//Away, there's almost no difference in their costs since every land/mana dork in this deck taps for green. I think being able to get rid of two guys is better than hexproof (Wishing for hexproof is way too slow), so Far//Away wins on its secondary mode.
This deck is less consistent that any of the other combo decks now. Even with the untouchable Caryatid, it's still a combo that requires 2 cards and has a chance of fizzling. Twin, Scapeshift and Ad Nauseam don't fizzle, and UR Storm only needs one engine card (PA/Mancer).
I don't have SCG premium, so I only have Sam Black's decklist (which someone posted) and not the full article. I think he might have gone through some of the points that I've mentioned in my preious posts in his article.
This is probably more for Lectyrs version than izzetmages, as it generates more mana in a turn however...
Has anyone considered remand. I know it's probably more of a "throw it in there" type of card, but here's my thinking... Twin is strong because it can defend itself pre and mid combo. This can't. Although it doesn't answer Abrupt Decay, it does stop a few other bits (t2 discard springs to mind). It can also allow a keep-able non-dork hand with remand, as we can just go t2 remand, t3 jeskai, t4 combo. The main reason I chose remand over mana leak etc, was simply because, on the combo turn, it can cantrip, specifically if you have 2 dorks / 1 dork + 1 manland.
It's probably not what this decks wants to do, but it hasn't been mentioned and it's not a totally bonkers idea. I certainly don't think 4 is the right number, but perhaps a few that you can "bluff" the opponent with would work (if they see it g1, they may try play around it in g2+g3).
Edit - Far/Away or Fiery Justice? Justice kills linvala, but also wrecks weenie strats a bit easier. But, it costs 5 on the back of a wish...
Edit 2 - how are you guys playing games 2 & 3? So for example, you have 3 wish targets to hate a particular deck (e.g. fiery justice/abrupt decay/assault battery against agro). Do you sideboard in 2, leave a wish target in the side? How many cards are you willing to side in/out each game?
I'd never maindeck Remand. It's nearly garbage on the combo turn, as it adds 2 mana to any spell I cast. This means that it rots in hand mid-combo unless I get at least 2 (Probe) to 3 (usual) mana. Sometimes, I have to combo off on only Caryatid, then they kill my Zendikons in response to untap triggers, so I'm stuck on 1 dork and 1 mana for too long.
I like Fiery Justice because it nukes Linvala and multiple hate bears; izzetmage prefers Far // Away because he's likely more confident with his chances of bouncing Linvala at EOT. Playtest them (and maybe black kill spells) and see what you think. I will warn you, however, that izzetmage is right--being cheap is paramount in this deck. I've had better results with Lightning Helix than Ajani Vengeant as a Wish target because being cheaper makes it faster to use and harder to play around.
I haven't tested much of Games 2-3, but in match-ups where I need removal, I'd probably board all but one Wish removal in. I might leave the most expensive one in the Wishboard (the cheaper ones save my butt faster and are easier to cast mid-combo). I'm comfortable with boarding in 0-4 cards per match-up.
Should leave the most expensive one in and a cheap one like helix or something in also. This way you can still wish for it in situations where you can use the life or need to 3 damage something.
edit: can you still Wish for a Wish (that was played before), or did they change the rules for that? Otherwise you can have infi loot-ability with 2 mana dorks... I'm currently missing a "go infinite" way. If you get unlucky, you draw 7 lands/ creates in a row and the combo stops. However, the 'infinite' part should not be too "forced" (like in standard).
You can't, unfortunately. Now the exile zone counts as "inside the game".
View from Above is a way to go infinite, but I think it's unnecessary. It's only relevant when you have 2 mana dorks or Ascendancies, and at that point you're already winning - each cantrip you cast nets 1 mana and loots 2 cards.
You still play Ad Nauseam? It's a decent tier 2 deck now.
Good to hear. Treasure Cruise is really important in this deck; it's your only way of restocking if you combo off with only 1-3 cards in hand. Without, it you fizzle a lot more often. Before the combo, in some cases you can hardcast it for 3 or 4 if you get a bunch of mana dorks down early.
On Treasure Cruise, I've found that it's good pre-combo mid- to late-game as a cheap source of CA and counterspell bait. I've cast two 4-mana ones on Turn 3 so far (one tried to punish Faeries for tapping out for Bitterblossom), and they get very cheap against Jund. It's one way to out-attrition Liliana.
I'd never maindeck Remand. It's nearly garbage on the combo turn, as it adds 2 mana to any spell I cast. This means that it rots in hand mid-combo unless I get at least 2 (Probe) to 3 (usual) mana. Sometimes, I have to combo off on only Caryatid, then they kill my Zendikons in response to untap triggers, so I'm stuck on 1 dork and 1 mana for too long.
That's not actually how you should play remand.. With ascendancy out you can just play a spell, get the untap and loot triggers, resolve those, play remand, get both triggers again and draw a card after while returning the other spell to you hand again. This gives you 3 triggers with only 2 cards and if you have one dork will cost you only 1 mana (not three). If you have two dorks and the other card was a can't rip or zending you actually gain a mana. I'm not saying we should include it immediately because the list is kind of tight but I think it's a valid option.
You're correct--I actually worked out that untapping before I Remand is the way to go. Sadly, I'm still shoved back 1 turn too often by having only 2-cmc cantrips in hand, so I still don't like Remand.
I'm not a fan of Forbidden Orchard--against grindy decks that may/will disrupt the first attempt to combo off, the tokens WILL kick you in the butt. I'd say that's a bigger disadvantage than always making Cerulean Wisps live is an advantage.
@Blaat Kwadraat, I'd also replace all the City of Brass with Mana Confluence--Confluence swings better when Wind Zendikoned up and doesn't try to kill you if Exarchs tap it.
Please continue the discussion and development in the new primer here. Big thanks to izzetmage for working that primer up, and for all you combo players out there for diving into this awesome deck.
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Lightning Helix over Lightning Bolt?
Eidolon of the Great Revel can be seen in G1, before you've sided in your single-ton bolt.
The deck also does a lot of pain to itself; wishing into a wear//tear for Eidolon costs 4 life (and maybe more for Mana Confluence). Helix only costs you 1 life (+pain).
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I think the plan in G1 against Burn is to just hope that they don't draw Eidolon. It's almost unbeatable, even if you have Helix to wish for. Suppose they drop Eidolon on T2, then you Wish for Helix on T2 and cast it T3. All while they're throwing burn spells at your head, and Eidolon has gotten one hit in. Furthermore, you spent Wish on Helix, so you need to get Ascendancy some other way. Such a situation doesn't look winnable.
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Big Johnny.
If you want to play draw spells in the SB, play Scarscale Ritual.
The more I play this deck, the more I find it struggles if it doesn't draw Treasure Cruise during the combo. I should point out that double or even triple Ascendancy IS a legitimate thing, which I overlooked before. Double Ascendancy gets you to Cruise faster - even if you have to throw away a few cantrips, resolving Cruise makes up for that. Adding to that, I'm trying out 4 Cruise now (-1 Zendikon for the 4th Cruise).
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Big Johnny.
I second scarscale ritual; it's genius. And makes your redundant copies of Glittering Wish pretty amazing during your Combo turn. I almost want to find room for 2x Scarscale in the SB to make Wish relevant during the combo.
I also think Cruise is the strongest card you can draw into during combo. 4 might be right.
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I think Cerulean Wisps and Manamorphose are necessary when playing without Zendikons. They give you a boost of +1 mana; rack up enough of those and you can cast the second Ascendancy, for 2 mana per untap. With Zendikons you can just stick them on a land for the same effect.
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Big Johnny.
Also, how good has Cerulean Wisps been against removal-heavy and/or creature-light decks?
How many times have you Turn 2 killed so far? I don't know whether the high dork and cantrip density raises the chance or the low land count lowers it. I've killed on Turn 2 twice so far and passed it by a 3rd time in favour of a more secure Turn 3 kill.
How has no cantrip and no dedicated win con in the Wishboard been treating you? Do you tend to find Grapeshot on time when comboing off? What has the most common mid-combo Wish target been (and your second most common, in case Ascendancy #2 is the most common)?
How has no Wishable kill spell for Linvala been treating you? If you want to boot her, would you use Terminate, Simic Charm, Orzhov Charm, Far // Away, a 3-cmc spell, or some 2--cmc spell I haven't thought of?
16 lands and 12 dorks is OK. For comparison purposes, Storm plays 16 lands, Eggs played 17, Elves in Extended played 16-17. All were combo decks that wanted to draw a substantial portion of their library, just like this one. In such a deck, the more lands you play, the higher your chances of fizzling. This deck has the best of both worlds; you have the full 8 cantrips (Sleight/Serum) and 8/12 mana dorks.
I think Wisps is necessary for the mana boost, since I'm not playing Zendikons. I know it fizzles if your opponent removes your mana dork, but if they remove your mana dork you've got bigger problems than that - you can't combo off now unless you draw another one. If you don't play Wisps then you have to play some other cantrip, and spend an even longer period during your combo stuck at 1-2 mana. If you're stuck at 1 mana, Manamorphose is dead in hand. The alternative is waiting a turn instead of trying to combo off with 1 mana floating.
Turn 2 requires a god draw: 2 lands, mana dork, Ascendancy and Probe. There isn't enough redundancy to increase the T2 kill rate, unless you start playing things like Gut Shot or Noxious Revival. T2 kill rate doesn't make or break this deck, though.
No cantrips in the board is fine, I'm playing Wisps over Zendikon so I have more cantrips main. Glittering Wish is discard fodder when I'm comboing off; I can't pay for Wish anyway because I'm not playing Zendikons (= hasty mana dorks mid-combo).
Didn't think about Linvala, thanks for the reminder. I'd use Far//Away; Terminate and Orzhov Charm need black, which is harder to get (especially if your mana dork is Hierarch). Between Simic Charm and Far//Away, there's almost no difference in their costs since every land/mana dork in this deck taps for green. I think being able to get rid of two guys is better than hexproof (Wishing for hexproof is way too slow), so Far//Away wins on its secondary mode.
This deck is less consistent that any of the other combo decks now. Even with the untouchable Caryatid, it's still a combo that requires 2 cards and has a chance of fizzling. Twin, Scapeshift and Ad Nauseam don't fizzle, and UR Storm only needs one engine card (PA/Mancer).
I don't have SCG premium, so I only have Sam Black's decklist (which someone posted) and not the full article. I think he might have gone through some of the points that I've mentioned in my preious posts in his article.
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Big Johnny.
I'd never maindeck Remand. It's nearly garbage on the combo turn, as it adds 2 mana to any spell I cast. This means that it rots in hand mid-combo unless I get at least 2 (Probe) to 3 (usual) mana. Sometimes, I have to combo off on only Caryatid, then they kill my Zendikons in response to untap triggers, so I'm stuck on 1 dork and 1 mana for too long.
I like Fiery Justice because it nukes Linvala and multiple hate bears; izzetmage prefers Far // Away because he's likely more confident with his chances of bouncing Linvala at EOT. Playtest them (and maybe black kill spells) and see what you think. I will warn you, however, that izzetmage is right--being cheap is paramount in this deck. I've had better results with Lightning Helix than Ajani Vengeant as a Wish target because being cheaper makes it faster to use and harder to play around.
I haven't tested much of Games 2-3, but in match-ups where I need removal, I'd probably board all but one Wish removal in. I might leave the most expensive one in the Wishboard (the cheaper ones save my butt faster and are easier to cast mid-combo). I'm comfortable with boarding in 0-4 cards per match-up.
You can't, unfortunately. Now the exile zone counts as "inside the game".
View from Above is a way to go infinite, but I think it's unnecessary. It's only relevant when you have 2 mana dorks or Ascendancies, and at that point you're already winning - each cantrip you cast nets 1 mana and loots 2 cards.
You still play Ad Nauseam? It's a decent tier 2 deck now.
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Big Johnny.
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Big Johnny.
You're correct--I actually worked out that untapping before I Remand is the way to go. Sadly, I'm still shoved back 1 turn too often by having only 2-cmc cantrips in hand, so I still don't like Remand.
@Blaat Kwadraat, I'd also replace all the City of Brass with Mana Confluence--Confluence swings better when Wind Zendikoned up and doesn't try to kill you if Exarchs tap it.
Please continue the discussion and development in the new primer here. Big thanks to izzetmage for working that primer up, and for all you combo players out there for diving into this awesome deck.