I'm not saying that she's not worth it. But with we're working with right now, that's how she would probably be have to get played. I love the idea of having that second ability online. I do agree that nothing will be "final" until all the cards are spoiled and even then, we'll need some time to start play testing with it. Which, we could technically start doing right away.
In other news, I've been mulling over some more cards to playtest:
Infernal Tutor - I think that some more consistency would help this deck a lot. Getting to double up on Token generators or anthems we already have in hand could be good. Some obvious downsides, but I think we could use some help when we're in topdeck mode. Not sure how it would perform, but i think it would be interesting to see how it does.
Boseiju, who shelters all - this ends up effectively being Cavern of souls for all our tokens. I'm looking to having it in the sideboard for things like Twin where Remand hurts, and making our removal just say no would be a large boon.
Sun Lance - Doesn't hit everything, but working a W pseudo-bolt in our removal would open up our mana for more spells a turn.
As usual, I'm really interested in what people think, and if anyone's played these cards before.
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I've seen people play Boseiju in a non-BB shell and it works decent as a 1-of. Other than that I wouldn't play it.
I could see a max of a 1-of MB or SB of Infernal Tutor. Idk how it would work. I would like a double anthem though.
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[14:58]  Paramount_Elite: Anyways don't confuse Casual EDH with EDH or the highly compettive format called French Duel Commander.
I recently got into playing the deck, and have been enjoying it tremendously so far. That said, I'm finding combo to be quite problematic. I run 7 discards maindeck (and a total of 9 in the 75) and that's pretty much it to deal with combo. However, discard by itself doesn't win the game on the spot, and many times I find myself losing simply because I took away a key piece or two, but I couldn't provide a fast enough clock to kill them before they drew into another one.
Is this something which is inherent to the deck, or am I not aggressive enough? And are there any suggestions for improving it?
Discard is sort of our bread and butter for sure. What combo decks are you having trouble with specifically? What are you siding out against each deck? And really posting a list would be super helpful, so we can see what you're running already.
A common card to look into would be Surgical Extraction. Paired with discard, it's usually enough to neuter combo decks.
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So SCG has up 2 articles on BW Tokens today including one about BW tokens splashing Red for Blood Moon for those interested.
Personally the only thing that really interested me was Worship as a 1 of in the sideboard. Its 4 mana which is a lot in Modern but it does have its applications.
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My problem with Windbrisk Heights is that more times than not one of two things happen to me. First I don't get to cast the card. Second when I do cast the card it's a win more type thing.
How do you guys feel about his splits on Sorin and Gideon? He said he would rather have Gideon, but every time I have Sorin is just feels amazing.
I'm not saying that she's not worth it. But with we're working with right now, that's how she would probably be have to get played. I love the idea of having that second ability online. I do agree that nothing will be "final" until all the cards are spoiled and even then, we'll need some time to start play testing with it. Which, we could technically start doing right away.
In other news, I've been mulling over some more cards to playtest:
Infernal Tutor - I think that some more consistency would help this deck a lot. Getting to double up on Token generators or anthems we already have in hand could be good. Some obvious downsides, but I think we could use some help when we're in topdeck mode. Not sure how it would perform, but i think it would be interesting to see how it does.
Boseiju, who shelters all - this ends up effectively being Cavern of souls for all our tokens. I'm looking to having it in the sideboard for things like Twin where Remand hurts, and making our removal just say no would be a large boon.
Sun Lance - Doesn't hit everything, but working a W pseudo-bolt in our removal would open up our mana for more spells a turn.
As usual, I'm really interested in what people think, and if anyone's played these cards before.
Infernal Tutor really seems good only in Hellbent mode. You'll feel really silly the first time you have two of them and five lands in your draw. So, one-of seems fine. It's a great thing to have once you've got four or more mana.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All has very large drawbacks, it must be said. I wouldn't carp about one in the board but how much good is it going to do? There's no game-winning combo to power out.
Sunlance is a respectable card. Probably not a main-deck card, but it's a perfectly suitable sideboard card. Sorcery speed is a big drawback, but it's the right price. It's worth a thought for the board in any primarily W deck.
So SCG has up 2 articles on BW Tokens today including one about BW tokens splashing Red for Blood Moon for those interested.
Personally the only thing that really interested me was Worship as a 1 of in the sideboard. Its 4 mana which is a lot in Modern but it does have its applications.
Ha, thats funny about the Blood Moon list, I was actually brewing this in my head not that long ago... just need one sacred foundry, 8 fetches and another basic or two and you should have the mana for a red splash surprise lolBlood Moon. At this point, I would cut spectral procession entirely and play midnight haunting. I don't think its necessary but it would be interesting to see if the deck really even runs with 3 maindeck Blood Moons.
Discard is not the bread and butter of tokens, the tokens generators are. We are so heavily reliant on discard at the moment because the field is just not appropriate for tokens unless there is a major shake up in the field, the deck design, or the cards available to us. Aside from Craig Wescoes statements about tokens and its viability, I submit two other pieces of evidence: tokens hasn't won a major tournament or top eighted in about two years AND you don't see Jund or Abzan in the top 8 lists often despite being tier 1.
Discard isn't the solution, it's part of the problem. Tokens relies heavily on advancing the board. Discard holds the opponent back and at least gives us parity for a few turns (maybe). During that time we have to advance the board state to such a degree that the game closes out within one to two turns. Tokens is certainly capable of the powerful finish, but it lacks the raw card power of tron and the ability to combo out. The latter dominate, so our top end spells pale in comparison. Every time we put in another discard spell, we buy one turn of parity, but are unable to advance the board state until late game. There again is the problem. By turn four I could cast a discard spell and a token generator, but frequently this is too late: your opponents position is established and you have to close the game within the next two turns or lose. Discard costs us in the long run, but we are forced to use it. Reid Duke says the same thing in thoughtseize You. Having more and more discard main deck just tells me a deck isn't a very viable strategy in the meta fr these reasons (it's like running more card draw to get your threats in hand. Sure, you have seven cards turn 8 but are getting your ass kicked).
Why do I mention Jund? Simple. Jund is one of our best matchups. If I sit down across from a Jund player we might as well sign the paper and get a beer. Yet Jund struggles in the current meta too. They have some of the best cards in the format and some of the worst matchups in recent memory. Remember Abzan was all the rage before cruise was banned. Tokens was totally viable. Tokens didn't need 8 discard main to survive then, no one did. (And I submit the Jund is popular today because magic players are notoriously averse to parting with their cards for anything less than they paid and because the deck is so damned expensive)
We need solutions that advance the board state and cost our opponents at the same time. Tide hollow sculler was one of those earlier. Aven mind censor does that. Drawing two cards late game while pressuring the opponent would be op in this deck: mull drifter does that (but it is expensive). Discard effects that buy us a card or tokens would be nice. He current meta likes two for one effects. Tutoring effects and protecting our spells do the opposite of this.
[quote from="michaelvogler »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/562369-bw-tokens?comment=3964"]Discard is not the bread and butter of tokens, the tokens generators are. We are so heavily reliant on discard at the moment because the field is just not appropriate for tokens unless there is a major shake up in the field, the deck design, or the cards available to us. Aside from Craig Wescoes statements about tokens and its viability, I submit two other pieces of evidence: tokens hasn't won a major tournament or top eighted in about two years AND you don't see Jund or Abzan in the top 8 lists often despite being tier 1.
I didn't mean that discard was the best part of the deck, just that discard was our main tool for dealing with fast combo. I'm talking about the likes of grishoalbrand, and others. I'm not sure where Tron fits into the combo spectrum, but I recognize that Tron and Amulet Bloom are major problems that discard doesn't seem to be working well against. I was under the assumption that the op was dealing with the faster goryo's vengeance style combo decks (that just seem to fold against disruption) and not the more resilient Tron/Bloom decks.
Discard isn't the solution, it's part of the problem. Tokens relies heavily on advancing the board. Discard holds the opponent back and at least gives us parity for a few turns (maybe). During that time we have to advance the board state to such a degree that the game closes out within one to two turns. Tokens is certainly capable of the powerful finish, but it lacks the raw card power of tron and the ability to combo out. The latter dominate, so our top end spells pale in comparison. Every time we put in another discard spell, we buy one turn of parity, but are unable to advance the board state until late game. There again is the problem. By turn four I could cast a discard spell and a token generator, but frequently this is too late: your opponents position is established and you have to close the game within the next two turns or lose. Discard costs us in the long run, but we are forced to use it. Reid Duke says the same thing in thoughtseize You. Having more and more discard main deck just tells me a deck isn't a very viable strategy in the meta fr these reasons (it's like running more card draw to get your threats in hand. Sure, you have seven cards turn 8 but are getting your ass kicked).
Why do I mention Jund? Simple. Jund is one of our best matchups. If I sit down across from a Jund player we might as well sign the paper and get a beer. Yet Jund struggles in the current meta too. They have some of the best cards in the format and some of the worst matchups in recent memory. Remember Abzan was all the rage before cruise was banned. Tokens was totally viable. Tokens didn't need 8 discard main to survive then, no one did. (And I submit the Jund is popular today because magic players are notoriously averse to parting with their cards for anything less than they paid and because the deck is so damned expensive)
I agree with you here, but I don't think that discard and building a board presence are entirely separate though. There's a reason we've seen a shift towards cards like bitterblossom and walkers. We need cards that will provide continual advantage will allowing us to continue to use our mana in other ways. Maybe we have different play styles, but I've always played this deck like a control deck early, and then close the game out with tokens + anthem late.
We need solutions that advance the board state and cost our opponents at the same time. Tide hollow sculler was one of those earlier. Aven mind censor does that. Drawing two cards late game while pressuring the opponent would be op in this deck: mull drifter does that (but it is expensive). Discard effects that buy us a card or tokens would be nice. He current meta likes two for one effects. Tutoring effects and protecting our spells do the opposite of this.
Yeah, I've always shied away from Sculler, but it's still in the realm of things we want to be doing. I agree with the tutoring effects. I'm not really happy with it in initial testing and I think it pulls the deck away from what it wants to do.
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We need solutions that advance the board state and cost our opponents at the same time. Tide hollow sculler was one of those earlier. Aven mind censor does that. Drawing two cards late game while pressuring the opponent would be op in this deck: mull drifter does that (but it is expensive). Discard effects that buy us a card or tokens would be nice. He current meta likes two for one effects. Tutoring effects and protecting our spells do the opposite of this.
Agreed We need a useful card in Orzhov colors with some modality... Something like
Orzhov Command BW
instant
Choose two.
Destroy target artifact or enchantment
Creatures you Control get +1/+1 until end of turn
Creatures your opponent controls get -1/-1 until end of turn
Scry 1, Draw a card, lose two life.
There are a lot of other cool options of course and 2 mana might be OP, but we can dream... either way, something even remotely like this would be an auto-include.
Sunlance is a terrible card. The fact that it is sorcery kills any of its combat trick potential, aside from all its other drawbacks. You are better off splashing for red to get bolt if you really wanted more efficient removal. Of course, that is not the only reason to splash red.
Here is what frustrates me about bw tokens.
Very often you draw into only one or two token generators over the course of 7 turns. The few that you have access to is very perceptible to discard or counters. Lingering souls flashback has some value but we want to full cast it almost all the time for 4 tokens.
The other scenario is you are flooded with token hands. That is generally nice against (some) creature decks but against many other match-up, we will lose with this hand.
We play like a bad control deck half the times. Like michaelvogler said, discards work best under decks that have really good early pressure (jund with tarmogoyf or ooze). Our clock is a bit slow and that is only acceptable if the deck has inevitability. But our inevitability can never match the likes of control or combo and only works well against (some) creature decks. Which again is why i dont think bitterblossom adds much to the deck except in already favorable match-ups.
I added bolt for (removal) disruption and faster clock. But the deck still lacks flexible card selection. Jund and junk can survive drawing the wrong half of their deck because their cards are so flexible. We often stall with discard for 5 turns and still draw nothing appropriate. I added faithless looting but it overcrowded the 1 mana drop...
Sunlance is a terrible card. The fact that it is sorcery kills any of its combat trick potential, aside from all its other drawbacks. You are better off splashing for red to get bolt if you really wanted more efficient removal. Of course, that is not the only reason to splash red.
Here is what frustrates me about bw tokens.
Very often you draw into only one or two token generators over the course of 7 turns. The few that you have access to is very perceptible to discard or counters. Lingering souls flashback has some value but we want to full cast it almost all the time for 4 tokens.
The other scenario is you are flooded with token hands. That is generally nice against (some) creature decks but against many other match-up, we will lose with this hand.
We play like a bad control deck half the times. Like michaelvogler said, discards work best under decks that have really good early pressure (jund with tarmogoyf or ooze). Our clock is a bit slow and that is only acceptable if the deck has inevitability. But our inevitability can never match the likes of control or combo and only works well against (some) creature decks. Which again is why i dont think bitterblossom adds much to the deck except in already favorable match-ups.
I added bolt for (removal) disruption and faster clock. But the deck still lacks flexible card selection. Jund and junk can survive drawing the wrong half of their deck because their cards are so flexible. We often stall with discard for 5 turns and still draw nothing appropriate. I added faithless looting but it overcrowded the 1 mana drop...
Sunlance is terrible in comparison to Bolt, yes, but I think it's an interesting card that warrants discussion as to it's possible inclusion. If we, as a group of players, want to make BW Tokens more competitive, we shouldn't dismiss untested cards. I've actually considered sleeving up Sunlance as 1-2 of just for added removal because I was expecting an aggro-heavy field. On a side note, all but one deck had two Hero of Bladeholds in the sideboard. I guess I'll have to drop the cash for them and test them, or put my two Brimaz in there.
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I usually play between 23-25 lands (depending on the meta).
So I have 9-11 flexi spots that I can dedicate to my meta. Futhermore I don't like Liliana, because it only improves our bad MUs slightly, while making us weaker against our stronger MUs. I tested the light R splash and if I expect Tron and/or Bloom, I think that this is much more effective than Liliana, but if you expect Bogles Liliana is the card you want.
Against aggro deck. In my case vs Zoo, Boggle (because i tested against these deck), but generally i think also all other aggro (Merfolk, affinity? ecc..)
Okay, that's fair. I do think that most lists are running more removal than the list you posted, so I don't find those decks to be so problematic. If I was playing any of those, I would side her out in favour of some pro red creatures on the ground. I haven't found a reason to cut her though.
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Only 2 spectral in the core deck?
Imho 4 is necessary.
Supposing so, the problem it's the same, we chase our opponent in early game, without consistency
The 2 spectral processions are because I lately jam 4 Ghost Quarters into my deck and spectrals are pretty inconsistant with so many colorless mana sources. This is because Tron is currently big in our meta and playing 4 Ghost Quarters (and Crumble to Dust SB) is necessary against this abomination. I've tested Ensnaring Bridge in the past and it isn't good against the current meta decks, because they either don't care, have enough ways to deal with it or other SB cards improve the MU more.
The problem with Liliana is, that while being always usefull, other cards are most of the time more usefull than her. She is basicly a compromise between removal, hand disruption and thread, while not excelling at anything. In some MUs having such a versatile card is pretty strong (especially if they have difficulties to play around the -2), but when your oponent can jam the board with tokens/disposable creatures (Abzan, Affinity, Burn) or spending 3 mana for something that doesn't preassure enough is too much of a tempo loss (Tron), you are glad that you dropped her for more focused cards.
I understand what you are getting at, I was just wondering specifically which matchups you thought she was best/worst in.
I guess you did answer that too. That's a fair point.
On a different note, I just got a second look at Drana, Liberator of Malakir. I'm thinking of testing 2x Drana, with 2x Hero of Bladehold in the sideboard. For matchups where we will need to close the game out faster. I like them for the fact that they're less synergy reliant, but still have a very high upside with a few other tokens.
In terms of other tests:
Sunlance: I think this card is good removal, but will be meta dependent. Against decks where we want to "bolt" things (Zoo, Elves, Burn, Affinity, small creature aggro) I think the card is great. If we're moving into an Amulet Bloom/Tron heavy meta, it doesn't have as much value. So, it'll be a meta call for right now. I'll keep them around with my deck for when I think they're meta-appropriate. The card seems like it has a very high ceiling in aggro meta's, and a very low floor in non-aggro meta's. Infernal Tutor: I don't think this card pans out. The more I thought about it, even before testing, the less it seemed likely to work as intended. I didn't play too many games with it. The card seems like it has a low floor, and a fairly low ceiling. We lack the toolbox that really makes tutors shine. And while it would be great to get a planeswalker on demand, the effect is pretty sketchy and will end up as a dead card in a number of games. Boseiju, who shelter's all: I had this card in as a 2-of in the side board for Remand/counter heavy matchups that seem to grind us out (or me out at least). I got to play it in the exact deck I wanted it against, and it severely under performed. The deck has such high coloured mana requirements that 1 production hurts the deck a lot. Secondly, some of our most important cards at Planeswalkers and Bitterblossom. Obviously, neither are instants/sorceries. Um, honestly, low floor and low ceiling. All bad. If I could uncounterable PW's or BB I'd be set.
I did however grow to love BB in control matchups. They really need to remove it, and I always feel great about having a continual source of tokens, that allows me to keep some pressure on regardless of what my opponent is doing.
Edit: I also want to do a quick analysis of Drana before testing, and again see what people think.
*Just so everyone's on the same page: The fact that she has first strike means that her ability will trigger within the first strike combat damage step. All attacking creatures get +1/+1 counters, then move to the regular damage step as 2/2's (or higher or whatever).*
Pros:
Flying, first strike
Relatively cheap
Works well on her own
Works well with a group
Cons:
Cost; 1BB stretches mana base
Fails the Bolt test
Turns on opposing removal
Needs to live for a turn
Obviously, there are some downsides - namely she dies to bolt. For this reason, I'm adding it to the sideboard. By having very few creature MB we dodge opponent's removal in G1. this helps us continue to dodge their removal and we can play games G3, forcing them to sideboard incorrectly. Many decks will be removal their removal post-board for sweeper and the like. For this reason, I think she's worth looking at for G2/3 against certain decks. Siding her and HB in give us more a better chance against Pyroclasm affects, and increase the impact of overall topdecks. Some decks like Bloom/Tron play little removal. Bloom plays Slaughter pact (only hits nonblack creatures), and Tron will be running Pyroclasm effects which Drana typically dodges and gives us more help in buffing out tokens past that point. I understand that there are much greater worries against Tron than Pryoclasm, but it's one more card that can prevent us from closing the game out after disrupting them.
Aside from a sweepers, an unchecked Drana, quickly gets herself out of bolt range and acts as an anthem each turn for our tokens. the fact that they are +1/+1 counters on each individual token has it's upsides and downsides. Largely, our tokens are less susceptible to Disenchant effects when taking out an anthem. I think a little more diversity in anthem affects (at this point we'd have enchantments, emblems, PW's, counters, and Battle Cry triggers) would give the deck more resiliency.
Hero of Bladehold is taking up 2 slots in the SB for the same reasons. I don't think I need to give an explanation for her inclusion. Obviously, she plays well Drana, and the rest of our tokens.
In other news, I've been mulling over some more cards to playtest:
As usual, I'm really interested in what people think, and if anyone's played these cards before.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I could see a max of a 1-of MB or SB of Infernal Tutor. Idk how it would work. I would like a double anthem though.
Cockatrice username- Chrismp19.
Formats played: Modern
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[14:58]  Paramount_Elite: Anyways don't confuse Casual EDH with EDH or the highly compettive format called French Duel Commander.
Discard is sort of our bread and butter for sure. What combo decks are you having trouble with specifically? What are you siding out against each deck? And really posting a list would be super helpful, so we can see what you're running already.
A common card to look into would be Surgical Extraction. Paired with discard, it's usually enough to neuter combo decks.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Personally the only thing that really interested me was Worship as a 1 of in the sideboard. Its 4 mana which is a lot in Modern but it does have its applications.
-Anonymous
How do you guys feel about his splits on Sorin and Gideon? He said he would rather have Gideon, but every time I have Sorin is just feels amazing.
Infernal Tutor really seems good only in Hellbent mode. You'll feel really silly the first time you have two of them and five lands in your draw. So, one-of seems fine. It's a great thing to have once you've got four or more mana.
Boseiju, Who Shelters All has very large drawbacks, it must be said. I wouldn't carp about one in the board but how much good is it going to do? There's no game-winning combo to power out.
Sunlance is a respectable card. Probably not a main-deck card, but it's a perfectly suitable sideboard card. Sorcery speed is a big drawback, but it's the right price. It's worth a thought for the board in any primarily W deck.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Ha, thats funny about the Blood Moon list, I was actually brewing this in my head not that long ago... just need one sacred foundry, 8 fetches and another basic or two and you should have the mana for a red splash surprise lolBlood Moon. At this point, I would cut spectral procession entirely and play midnight haunting. I don't think its necessary but it would be interesting to see if the deck really even runs with 3 maindeck Blood Moons.
BW Eldrazi - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-eldrazi-proc/
U Merfolk - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/fishmode/
Discard isn't the solution, it's part of the problem. Tokens relies heavily on advancing the board. Discard holds the opponent back and at least gives us parity for a few turns (maybe). During that time we have to advance the board state to such a degree that the game closes out within one to two turns. Tokens is certainly capable of the powerful finish, but it lacks the raw card power of tron and the ability to combo out. The latter dominate, so our top end spells pale in comparison. Every time we put in another discard spell, we buy one turn of parity, but are unable to advance the board state until late game. There again is the problem. By turn four I could cast a discard spell and a token generator, but frequently this is too late: your opponents position is established and you have to close the game within the next two turns or lose. Discard costs us in the long run, but we are forced to use it. Reid Duke says the same thing in thoughtseize You. Having more and more discard main deck just tells me a deck isn't a very viable strategy in the meta fr these reasons (it's like running more card draw to get your threats in hand. Sure, you have seven cards turn 8 but are getting your ass kicked).
Why do I mention Jund? Simple. Jund is one of our best matchups. If I sit down across from a Jund player we might as well sign the paper and get a beer. Yet Jund struggles in the current meta too. They have some of the best cards in the format and some of the worst matchups in recent memory. Remember Abzan was all the rage before cruise was banned. Tokens was totally viable. Tokens didn't need 8 discard main to survive then, no one did. (And I submit the Jund is popular today because magic players are notoriously averse to parting with their cards for anything less than they paid and because the deck is so damned expensive)
We need solutions that advance the board state and cost our opponents at the same time. Tide hollow sculler was one of those earlier. Aven mind censor does that. Drawing two cards late game while pressuring the opponent would be op in this deck: mull drifter does that (but it is expensive). Discard effects that buy us a card or tokens would be nice. He current meta likes two for one effects. Tutoring effects and protecting our spells do the opposite of this.
I didn't mean that discard was the best part of the deck, just that discard was our main tool for dealing with fast combo. I'm talking about the likes of grishoalbrand, and others. I'm not sure where Tron fits into the combo spectrum, but I recognize that Tron and Amulet Bloom are major problems that discard doesn't seem to be working well against. I was under the assumption that the op was dealing with the faster goryo's vengeance style combo decks (that just seem to fold against disruption) and not the more resilient Tron/Bloom decks.
I agree with you here, but I don't think that discard and building a board presence are entirely separate though. There's a reason we've seen a shift towards cards like bitterblossom and walkers. We need cards that will provide continual advantage will allowing us to continue to use our mana in other ways. Maybe we have different play styles, but I've always played this deck like a control deck early, and then close the game out with tokens + anthem late.
Yeah, I've always shied away from Sculler, but it's still in the realm of things we want to be doing. I agree with the tutoring effects. I'm not really happy with it in initial testing and I think it pulls the deck away from what it wants to do.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Agreed We need a useful card in Orzhov colors with some modality... Something like
Orzhov Command BW
instant
Choose two.
There are a lot of other cool options of course and 2 mana might be OP, but we can dream... either way, something even remotely like this would be an auto-include.
BW Eldrazi - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bw-eldrazi-proc/
U Merfolk - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/fishmode/
1 Swamp
2 Fetid Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
2 Windswept Heath
2 Auriok Champion
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Bitterblossom
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Auriok Champion
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Duress
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Auriok Champion
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Thoughtseize
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Windswept Heath
2 Disenchant
1 Dismember
2 Duress
2 Hero of Bladehold
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Vault of the Archangel
4 Windbrisk Heights
4 Windswept Heath
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Duress
2 Hero of Bladehold
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Fetid Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Shambling Vent
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
3 Windswept Heath
1 Dismember
1 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Disenchant
1 Dismember
3 Duress
5th Place
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Fetid Heath
2 Flooded Strand
4 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
2 Shambling Vent
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
1 Secure the Wastes
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Bitterblossom
2 Hero of Bladehold
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Stony Silence
2 Celestial Purge
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Utter End
1 Thoughtseize
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Here is what frustrates me about bw tokens.
Very often you draw into only one or two token generators over the course of 7 turns. The few that you have access to is very perceptible to discard or counters. Lingering souls flashback has some value but we want to full cast it almost all the time for 4 tokens.
The other scenario is you are flooded with token hands. That is generally nice against (some) creature decks but against many other match-up, we will lose with this hand.
We play like a bad control deck half the times. Like michaelvogler said, discards work best under decks that have really good early pressure (jund with tarmogoyf or ooze). Our clock is a bit slow and that is only acceptable if the deck has inevitability. But our inevitability can never match the likes of control or combo and only works well against (some) creature decks. Which again is why i dont think bitterblossom adds much to the deck except in already favorable match-ups.
I added bolt for (removal) disruption and faster clock. But the deck still lacks flexible card selection. Jund and junk can survive drawing the wrong half of their deck because their cards are so flexible. We often stall with discard for 5 turns and still draw nothing appropriate. I added faithless looting but it overcrowded the 1 mana drop...
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Path of Exile
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
4 Bitterblossom
2 Spectral Procession
3 4cmc Planeswalker
I usually play between 23-25 lands (depending on the meta).
So I have 9-11 flexi spots that I can dedicate to my meta. Futhermore I don't like Liliana, because it only improves our bad MUs slightly, while making us weaker against our stronger MUs. I tested the light R splash and if I expect Tron and/or Bloom, I think that this is much more effective than Liliana, but if you expect Bogles Liliana is the card you want.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Okay, that's fair. I do think that most lists are running more removal than the list you posted, so I don't find those decks to be so problematic. If I was playing any of those, I would side her out in favour of some pro red creatures on the ground. I haven't found a reason to cut her though.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
The 2 spectral processions are because I lately jam 4 Ghost Quarters into my deck and spectrals are pretty inconsistant with so many colorless mana sources. This is because Tron is currently big in our meta and playing 4 Ghost Quarters (and Crumble to Dust SB) is necessary against this abomination. I've tested Ensnaring Bridge in the past and it isn't good against the current meta decks, because they either don't care, have enough ways to deal with it or other SB cards improve the MU more.
The problem with Liliana is, that while being always usefull, other cards are most of the time more usefull than her. She is basicly a compromise between removal, hand disruption and thread, while not excelling at anything. In some MUs having such a versatile card is pretty strong (especially if they have difficulties to play around the -2), but when your oponent can jam the board with tokens/disposable creatures (Abzan, Affinity, Burn) or spending 3 mana for something that doesn't preassure enough is too much of a tempo loss (Tron), you are glad that you dropped her for more focused cards.
I guess you did answer that too. That's a fair point.
On a different note, I just got a second look at Drana, Liberator of Malakir. I'm thinking of testing 2x Drana, with 2x Hero of Bladehold in the sideboard. For matchups where we will need to close the game out faster. I like them for the fact that they're less synergy reliant, but still have a very high upside with a few other tokens.
In terms of other tests:
Sunlance: I think this card is good removal, but will be meta dependent. Against decks where we want to "bolt" things (Zoo, Elves, Burn, Affinity, small creature aggro) I think the card is great. If we're moving into an Amulet Bloom/Tron heavy meta, it doesn't have as much value. So, it'll be a meta call for right now. I'll keep them around with my deck for when I think they're meta-appropriate. The card seems like it has a very high ceiling in aggro meta's, and a very low floor in non-aggro meta's.
Infernal Tutor: I don't think this card pans out. The more I thought about it, even before testing, the less it seemed likely to work as intended. I didn't play too many games with it. The card seems like it has a low floor, and a fairly low ceiling. We lack the toolbox that really makes tutors shine. And while it would be great to get a planeswalker on demand, the effect is pretty sketchy and will end up as a dead card in a number of games.
Boseiju, who shelter's all: I had this card in as a 2-of in the side board for Remand/counter heavy matchups that seem to grind us out (or me out at least). I got to play it in the exact deck I wanted it against, and it severely under performed. The deck has such high coloured mana requirements that 1 production hurts the deck a lot. Secondly, some of our most important cards at Planeswalkers and Bitterblossom. Obviously, neither are instants/sorceries. Um, honestly, low floor and low ceiling. All bad. If I could uncounterable PW's or BB I'd be set.
I did however grow to love BB in control matchups. They really need to remove it, and I always feel great about having a continual source of tokens, that allows me to keep some pressure on regardless of what my opponent is doing.
Edit: I also want to do a quick analysis of Drana before testing, and again see what people think.
*Just so everyone's on the same page: The fact that she has first strike means that her ability will trigger within the first strike combat damage step. All attacking creatures get +1/+1 counters, then move to the regular damage step as 2/2's (or higher or whatever).*
Pros:
- Flying, first strike
- Relatively cheap
- Works well on her own
- Works well with a group
Cons:Obviously, there are some downsides - namely she dies to bolt. For this reason, I'm adding it to the sideboard. By having very few creature MB we dodge opponent's removal in G1. this helps us continue to dodge their removal and we can play games G3, forcing them to sideboard incorrectly. Many decks will be removal their removal post-board for sweeper and the like. For this reason, I think she's worth looking at for G2/3 against certain decks. Siding her and HB in give us more a better chance against Pyroclasm affects, and increase the impact of overall topdecks. Some decks like Bloom/Tron play little removal. Bloom plays Slaughter pact (only hits nonblack creatures), and Tron will be running Pyroclasm effects which Drana typically dodges and gives us more help in buffing out tokens past that point. I understand that there are much greater worries against Tron than Pryoclasm, but it's one more card that can prevent us from closing the game out after disrupting them.
Aside from a sweepers, an unchecked Drana, quickly gets herself out of bolt range and acts as an anthem each turn for our tokens. the fact that they are +1/+1 counters on each individual token has it's upsides and downsides. Largely, our tokens are less susceptible to Disenchant effects when taking out an anthem. I think a little more diversity in anthem affects (at this point we'd have enchantments, emblems, PW's, counters, and Battle Cry triggers) would give the deck more resiliency.
Hero of Bladehold is taking up 2 slots in the SB for the same reasons. I don't think I need to give an explanation for her inclusion. Obviously, she plays well Drana, and the rest of our tokens.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG