MTG Salvation

Quote from CavalryWolfPack »

They aren't there to stop Burn. They stop the genocidal red sweeper: Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods , and the less played but still relevant Volcanic Fallout . Yes, Forge-Tenders do stop Burn, but that's not their primary job.

Thanks for the evaluation of the forge tenders, I totally overlooked its power on pyroclasms. I don't see them that often in my meta but I know how goddamn devastating they can be. You've convinced me on them - going to slide some back into the 75.

Quote from Thumbs »

Anchorls's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Godless Shrine 4 Marsh Flats 3 Isolated Chapel 3 Caves of Koilos 2 Bloodstained Mire 2 Windswept Heath 2 Snow-Covered Plains 1 Snow-Covered Swamp 1 Shambling Vent 2 Ghost Quarter 4 Thoughtseize 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 Path to Exile 1 Dismember	4 Bitterblossom 3 Raise the Alarm 4 Lingering Souls 3 Spectral Procession 3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor 1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar 1 Timely Reinforcements 4 Intangible Virtue	Sideboard 3 Wrath of God 2 Timely Reinforcements 1 Kor Firewalker 2 Ghost Quarter 3 Surgical Extraction 1 Torpor Orb 1 Grafdigger's Cage 2 Disenchant

My conclusions are:
- Shambling Vent was not very good. I will be putting some Windbrisk Heights back in, as well as a Vault of the Archangel.
- Gideon was really awesome in non-combo matchups,
- Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction actually gives us a nice chance to beat Tron. I see that combo working in other matchups like Scapeshift and Amulet Bloom,
- Wrath didn't work out as I thought. I guess Zealous Persecution taking out Elves and Birds and Hierarchs will have to do.

Thanks for your quality post, seems like you did alright! 3-0 must've felt nice. My first suggestion was going to be to get those Windbrisk's back in there. Seems like you've also already made that conclusion. I don't think we need to run as many fetches as you have, and I believe we certainly don't need to play Caves with isolated chapels, shrines and flats.
In regards to the Wraths, I've come to the same evaluation in my testing as well; zealous persecution is our best out, there just aren't any effective sweepers in our curve. I like to have 1 or 2 ZP's to bring in for game 2 sneakily and often side them out in game 3.
I'm interested in your Ghost Quarter / Surgical "combo". I've certainly tested with both those cards but not looked at having them together to beat tron and others, I'll test it out when I can.
Also I think you might want to go up one Gideon if possible, like you said, he is so powerful in the non combo matchups to establish a boardstate.
I like your 4/3 BB/Raise split, and even though I'm really against cutting any processions, I think this route may be slightly better in certain metas, and I'll probably do some testing on more 2 slot token producers.
Also did you run into any problems with personal life loss and no Aurioks?

Quote from TrappedUnderIce »

A rather strange list from an RPTQ that I hadn't seen mentioned in this thread.

Anchorls's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
2 Spellskite 3 Liliana of the Veil 2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 Intangible Virtue 4 Lingering Souls 2 Murderous Cut 3 Path to Exile 3 Secure the Wastes 3 Thoughtseize 4 Timely Reinforcements 2 Zealous Persecution	2 Ghost Quarter 4 Godless Shrine 2 Isolated Chapel 4 Marsh Flats 2 Plains 2 Polluted Delta 4 Swamp 2 Vault of the Archangel 2 Windswept Heath	Sideboard 3 Bitterblossom 1 Duress 1 Engineered Explosives 1 Hour of Reckoning 2 Leyline of Sanctity 1 Path to Exile 1 Relic of Progenitus 2 Rest in Peace 1 Secure the Wastes 2 Stony Silence

I can't really get behind a lot of those decisions, but it interesting. More Lilis than Sorin. Not sure what Spellskite is doing that Auriok Champion couldn't do. Cut over the fourth Path. Secure the Wastes and Timely Reinforcements over Spectral Procession, which does allow for the two maindeck Ghost Quarter in addition to the Vault. I'm unimpressed by Leyline, but he's running it. Bitterblossom presumably comes in against grindy decks and possibly Affinity. I don't know what to make of this list.

That is certainly an odd list, I can't see his reasoning on a lot of choices. The Secures and Timely path is interesting, but I have often run into situations where I can't cast timely effectively when I need to. Going down to 3 Path seems like a mistake to me. Also I'm with you on the Leylines, they don't do THAT much in modern. Spellskites I can get behind any day though, in the right matchups that thing would truck, especially in game 1. He has no turn 2 token producers in his mainboard which, to me, seems like a great way to lose. Although I suppose his reasoning is to set up the timely... I don't even know what to take from this list - seems like there are blatantly wrong choices, but that's just me.

Did it do well?

I don't think anyone disagrees that the effect does. The question is which is better. I have used both in many matches and my point is that sundering growth, while strictly better, isn't better in all of the matches that we need it. Others have given their data on previous pages. I just gave one example. I can give you others if you like.

Quote from michaelvogler »

I don't think anyone disagrees that the effect does. The question is which is better. I have used both in many matches and my point is that sundering growth, while strictly better, isn't better in all of the matches that we need it. Others have given their data on previous pages. I just gave one example. I can give you others if you like.

Sure, I`d like that. If the question is "which is better?" then the answer has to be "what does the meta look like?"

With Blood Moon on the decline, and affinity sitting at the #1 most played deck right now (http://modernnexus.com/), hitting artifacts is important. We don't generally run a lot of basics, but we have the capacity to play around Blood moon. It's not something that is exactly surprising, and its arrival is almost always telegraphed. Those are the only two situations (that truly matter) in the discussion of whether you're running, Sundering Growth, Disenchant, or Demystify.

Again, no one is disagreeing with the fact that hitting artifacts is important. I also agree we can play around blood moon. I have seen this come up in matches where my opponent ran land destruction (ghost quarter or tectonic edge) or where I had white and one colorless available. Likewise, I couldn't afford to hold up the double white to address an enchantment because I needed the white for something like Lingering Souls or Spectral procession. I could have one white and one colorless/black, but not both. We are talking about percentage points. A vast majority of the matches you can afford Sundering Growth. There are a few where you can't. In most of those, if I could have destroyed and enchantment or artifact, I would have won the game. Disenchant, while more conservative, can be used under more extreme circumstances than can Sundering Growth. There isn't a lot of debate on that.

Okay, that's a fair point. I was thinking you were still talking about Demystify, which is something I've seen people talking about. Yeah, I agree that Disenchant works better against land destruction, and Blood Moon. I'm not sure I'm even trying to destroy Blood Moon, though so I wasn't considering that. Like, other than Spectral, we don't have many cards that have double coloured costs, and even then we can drop Spectral for 6, which isn't pretty, but will work. I guess we just have different experiences? I'm not seeing a ton of LD or blood moon lately.

What matchups are you talking about?

On a different topic. Who's running the primer page right now? It's great, but getting rather old. None of the lists look like what's actually being played right now. I'm also starting a spreadsheet that would compile all of the T1/2/3 decks in modern, what their gameplan is, what they fold to, what they're board plan would be against us, and what we need to do to beat them. I know they've got this somewhere for modern, but nothing specific to BW Tokens.

Here's the link so far, it would be good to get comments/advice so we can have a serious, informative place where anyone can come see sideboarding advice that they could tailor to their specific meta.

Meta Spreadsheet

@Phone - This is a fantastic idea and I support it fully! I would also like to know who is currently running the page, while your work is awesome and appreciated - the primer could use a sincere update considering our new powerhouses and how there is somewhat of a divide amongst the community on how to build the deck. I would be willing to contribute whatever is needed to assist in making our thread the best it can be for new players and anyone who wants to share ideas. Even the banner image should have Intangible Virtue on it instead of Honor of the Pure, it's kind of misleading - that vigilance wins.

In regards to your spreadsheat I absolutely love it, it would be an awesome addition to the primer that could be continually updated. I have a buddy who has Grixis / UR Twin and I'll try to do more testing with him to get a better idea of that matchup. Lurking other threads is definitely a useful thing to do, I don't do it myself but it really is a good idea to get an understanding of what other people are doing, and I really like how you're compiling it. One suggestion I have, not sure if it's possible, is if you could set it up in en excel document or something it would be much easier to read and edit. We really need a place, like you said, for people to go and get specific meta advice, because our deck relies SO heavily on meta-tuning and sideboarding. A simple spreadsheet would make it so much easier for people to jump into the conversation and understand what the general consensus is without having to read through many pages. Again, really great idea here and I'm glad you took the initiative.

Quote from Anchorls »

@Phone - This is a fantastic idea and I support it fully! I would also like to know who is currently running the page, while your work is awesome and appreciated - the primer could use a sincere update considering our new powerhouses and how there is somewhat of a divide amongst the community on how to build the deck. I would be willing to contribute whatever is needed to assist in making our thread the best it can be for new players and anyone who wants to share ideas. Even the banner image should have Intangible Virtue on it instead of Honor of the Pure, it's kind of misleading - that vigilance wins.

In regards to your spreadsheat I absolutely love it, it would be an awesome addition to the primer that could be continually updated. I have a buddy who has Grixis / UR Twin and I'll try to do more testing with him to get a better idea of that matchup. Lurking other threads is definitely a useful thing to do, I don't do it myself but it really is a good idea to get an understanding of what other people are doing, and I really like how you're compiling it. One suggestion I have, not sure if it's possible, is if you could set it up in en excel document or something it would be much easier to read and edit. We really need a place, like you said, for people to go and get specific meta advice, because our deck relies SO heavily on meta-tuning and sideboarding. Again, really great idea here and I'm glad you took the initiative.

Thanks. Yeah, it's already in an Excel, but Google brings it up in some weird previewer. You can either bring it up in PDF format, or in a spreadsheet view, or download it (I think). I'd be pumped to hear what you find. I've just been compiling all of the decks together on Cockatrice and playing them randomly. Maybe a little ego, but I generally find I can pilot whatever deck I'm given (and generally figure out where I did misplay), so I've got a good idea about what deck is looking to do. I'd always enjoy some advice on decks, though.

I guess someone could message the OP and ask them what's up, or possibly message a mod about starting a new primer if the OP has left. I think there's a lot of good info there, but the idea I got of the deck from the primer is completely different from what I got from reading the last few pages of discussion. Like Tidehollow Sculler...? Also, if anyone's willing to play me in some cockatrice games so we can get a better idea on some of these matchups, I would appreciate it. Like if anyone was interested in running the Tokens deck into a specific deck and we could figure out what the best SB considerations are.

I also want to figure out some sort of point system, so cards that come in against T1, T2, and T3 decks would get something like 3 points, 2 points, and 1 point respectively. That way I could easily set up a graph/chart that shows which SB cards are giving us the most versatility, but still give some respect to tiers. I don't want new players thinking that One with Nothing is great SB tech, because the graph could show that it's got game against like 12 *****-tier decks, or something. Also, having more advice on playing out matchups is huge, something I think every single deck discussion needs.

Okay, yea I just had to click one more button and it showed it to me in the excel document. Good *****. Man that is some dedication, I pretty much only playtest when I get the chance at FNM's and with friends, I've only been to one GP.. That's awesome that there are people like you out there who enjoy just testing multiple decks, and really I support what you're doing. I don't really have the time to do that much myself but promote it.

I'll message the OP of the thread and see what's up with him and see if he wants to edit it, or edit it myself with the collaboration of the thread. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of the B/W version of the deck, as it's the only Magic I play right now and I like lurking this thread and theorycrafting how I can win at my own FNM. There needs to be a more thorough section for the splashes to, as I know people play weird versions of this deck and swear by it. I'm still bent on the B/W build but anyone who lurks here and plays a non budget interesting version of tokens, please post your list and your exact reasoning for the non-typical changes and maybe we can get it added to an updated primer. It would be so nice to be able to direct new players to the primer again and get them up to speed.

Also your points system seems like a totally good idea as well, because ultimately everyone's build of a a certain deck is slightly different so perhaps higher points could be better tech against the more stereotypical decks we are seeing in other MTGsalvation threads/rankings. If you have the prerogative to set that up man I support you fully as I love this frickin' deck and it's keeping me playing this game.

Quote from Phone »

That's a sweet report. Thanks! I was hoping you could walk us through your sideboard options and if you remember how you boarded for each matchup?

For Burn, Kor Firewalker, Timely Reinforcements, and a Ghost Quarter came in, while 1-2 Thoughtseize, 1 Intangible Virtue, and 1 Gideon came out. If I can take a creature off Thoughtseize, I think it's worth paying 2 life.
For Abzan and Elves, Wraths came in, and Gideon and a couple Paths came out. I thought the Wraths alone would tip the matches in my favor, but I was wrong.
For Tron, Surgical Extraction, Ghost Quarter, and Disenchant came in, while Inquisition (doesn't hit as much), Dismember, Gideon, Timely, and Sorin come out. More on this below...
For Affinity, Ghost Quarter, Disenchant and Wraths came in, while Gideon, a Intangible Virtue, and Timely came out.
I didn't see enough of the Jeskai deck to sideboard.

Quote from ayehmsee »

Mark of Asylum is a no
I could see it being good in a more aggressive token deck, but ive found we dont really have problems with that in the standard control variant since we have Bitterblossom
The issue, as people always point out, is that Tokens isnt fast enough. I guess my point before was to get people to stop playing this deck like its Elves

If I want a defensive card, I'd rather have a creature like Burrenton Forge-Tender or Kor Firewalker.

Quote from Anchorls »

In regards to the Wraths, I've come to the same evaluation in my testing as well; zealous persecution is our best out, there just aren't any effective sweepers in our curve. I like to have 1 or 2 ZP's to bring in for game 2 sneakily and often side them out in game 3.
I'm interested in your Ghost Quarter / Surgical "combo". I've certainly tested with both those cards but not looked at having them together to beat tron and others, I'll test it out when I can.
Also I think you might want to go up one Gideon if possible, like you said, he is so powerful in the non combo matchups to establish a boardstate.
I like your 4/3 BB/Raise split, and even though I'm really against cutting any processions, I think this route may be slightly better in certain metas, and I'll probably do some testing on more 2 slot token producers.
Also did you run into any problems with personal life loss and no Aurioks?

When I sequence my spells correctly and take the correct card when I cast my discard spells, I end up not having many issues with personal life loss. I'm not a fan of Auriok Champion right now because the fast creature aggro decks feature Wild Nacatl and Atarka's Command. I feel that Raise the Alarm is good enough versus them, and excellent versus everyone else. Without 7 token makers at the 2-drop spot, the deck feels very slow to turn the corner, which is also why I don't run 4 Spectral Procession.
Zealous Persecution would've been awesome to have, so there's 2 in my main deck now to test.
Having access to 4 Ghost Quarter & 3 Surgical Extraction versus Tron, Amulet Bloom, and Scapeshift makes these matchups winnable in my opinion; I wasn't able to make this deck fast enough to beat them via creatures and discard alone.

That RPTQ list has some interesting things going for it. Cutting all the Spectral Processions allows the mana base to not need triple W, or even double W (except when casting 2 spells in a turn). There were at least 3 games in my last tournament where I did not have WWW available right away, and needed to wait for the 4th land to cast it, which isn't optimal. While I don't think we need Lilianas, I am willing to try Secure the Wastes instead of Spectral Procession or a 2nd Gideon when I test the deck tomorrow and Friday night. That is by far the best card to top deck after we've played lots of lands, right? :^)

Thanks. Yeah, I don't have a ton of time either with school and that, but writing is more of a stress-relief thing for me, so I enjoy it. I agree that a section on splashes would be good. As far as Grixis testing goes, I'd really appreciate that. I'm very familiar with UR Twin, and Tarmo-twin, but I'm not sure about Grixis Twin. Mainly, do we keep discard in G2/3 if they're already there discarding our cards? Do we win that topdeck war when they have a potential combo? What are we valuing with our discard? Things like that.

As far as points go, I really just want some way to accurately rate "versatility" of sideboard cards, and need some way to see what's helping most against what.

Quote from Phone »

Quote from michaelvogler »

I don't think anyone disagrees that the effect does. The question is which is better. I have used both in many matches and my point is that sundering growth, while strictly better, isn't better in all of the matches that we need it. Others have given their data on previous pages. I just gave one example. I can give you others if you like.

Sure, I`d like that. If the question is "which is better?" then the answer has to be "what does the meta look like?"

With Blood Moon on the decline, and affinity sitting at the #1 most played deck right now (http://modernnexus.com/), hitting artifacts is important. We don't generally run a lot of basics, but we have the capacity to play around Blood moon. It's not something that is exactly surprising, and its arrival is almost always telegraphed. Those are the only two situations (that truly matter) in the discussion of whether you're running, Sundering Growth, Disenchant, or Demystify.

Demystify? Really? I think it's safe to say that Erase is strictly better. Do I even need to provide reasoning here?

Well jeez, which ever disenchant of war, Lana!

I don't think this conversation is useful anymore, unless we want to talk about the metas in which they should be used.

So...how much affinity hate is everyone running? I'm currently on

• 2 Kataki, war's wage
  
• 2 Sundering growth
  
• 2 Zealous Perscution
  
• 1 Hour of Reckoning

I honestly, just don't find it to be that problematic of a matchup, and so I'm considering cutting down to 1 kataki. I've know it's "the card" against affinity, but I haven't had it do much good for me overall. Take into consideration that I've won a lot of g2/3 where I just don't see it, and that I recognize how strong the effect can be.

Zealous Persecution is great in affinity, I generally board out some thought seize to get in disenchant (2) and 2 stony silence. Hero of Bladehold is also good here.

Beware Ensnaring Bridge

Quote from Thumbs »

Quote from Phone »

That's a sweet report. Thanks! I was hoping you could walk us through your sideboard options and if you remember how you boarded for each matchup?

For Burn, Kor Firewalker, Timely Reinforcements, and a Ghost Quarter came in, while 1-2 Thoughtseize, 1 Intangible Virtue, and 1 Gideon came out. If I can take a creature off Thoughtseize, I think it's worth paying 2 life.

What list are you playing that makes sense to take out Gideon and Intangible Virtue against burn?

Gideon presents a very fast clock, which is very important against burn. Intangible Virtue's vigilance is very important, too, and allows you to race while defending against their creatures.

My SB strategy for burn is:
-4 Bitterblossom
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Dismember

+3 Duress
+2 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Hero of Bladehold

Here's my deck list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/24-07-15-wb-tokens/


edit: I see: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/562369-bw-tokens?comment=3809

I think this is incorrect sideboarding. For this list, I'd do something like:
-1 Thoughtseize
-4 Bitterblossom
+1 Firewalker
+2 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Ghost Quarter

You just have a lot of bad cards in your mainboard (4 Thoughtseize is a lot). I think Bitterblossom is a lot worse than Thoughtseize.

Been lurking for a while, but I put together a basic BW Tokens deck back mid September. For a while I ran a basic BW deck, but with Craig Wescoe's recent comments concerning splashing R for Crumble to Dust, I decided to try throwing together something. Anyway, here's the deck and after the list, I'll explain my choices:



First off, in regards to the lands, I'm running Bloodstained Mire over Arid Mesa because I already own 4 Mires for Standard. If I find I prefer this version of Tokens over standard BW, I'll invest in the Mesas, but for now, this will do since I can fetch up Godless Shrines with either.

Also, as for why 1 Blood Crypt and 1 Sacred Foundry instead of 2 Foundries, while generally we want to aim for having access to WWW on turn 3 to try to cast Spectral Procession, if I don't have that spell in hand, have a single Fetch, and I want to be able to cast both Thoughtsieze and a R based spell, I'd rather be sure I can cast the spells in my hand. (Side note: This based on an experience I've had)

Onto the cards themselves:
Terminate: For this card, I cut some Murderous Cuts. I wanted a guaranteed cheaper removal spell, and this topped the list of additional spells that Red opened up. Instant speed, unconditional removal, plus ignores regeneration. Only other card of similar value would be Dreadbore, but I opted away from this since it's Sorcery speed, despite it's other upside. If your meta has more planeswalker-heavy decks, this is probably a better option.

Hide // Seek: Some people might be surprised on this one since it does kinda reek of Sideboard tech, but between the flexibility of being both enchantment and artifact removal and giving at least moderate lifegain, both sides being cheap and even the combined price being not too bad, makes this card good enough to main deck. Plus(!) it can all be done at Instant speed!

Crumble to Dust: This was the card that made me consider the Red splash. I'm running 3, but I'm not sure that's right. Maybe 2 is the better number, but there's enough reasons to want to do land destruction that if I'm siding this in, it'll do work. Any deck that runs creature-lands, Urzatron, Scapeshift, the list can go on and on.

Slaughter Games: Powerful combo hate, but also just powerful removal against non-aggro decks. BGx? Take out their 'goyfs! Urzatron? Goodbye Ugin, Karn, or Wurmcoil Engine.

First, I'll say, I'm not married to any of these inclusions and am perfectly willing to take other suggestions. Also, I'll add that if anyone is curious about my choices of non-red spells (such as my sideboard), please ask.

Finally, going to be doing a bit more testing tomorrow and Saturday, and then there's a GPT on Sunday. Currently considering running this or a similar list. Whatever I run, I'll post a report after the fact on how things went.

Thanks - I can get behind taking out the Bitterblossoms instead. I was so worried about having a fast clock versus every other deck that I thought Gideon was too slow to be effective versus burn.

I went 3-1 at a new LGS last night with some changes based on the RPTQ list. More info after tonight's session, but I took out the Spectral Processions for Secure the Wastes, and they were awesome :^)

I'm currently aiming to bring in about 5 cards from my sideboard for Affinity. Right now for me, those cards would be 2 Ghost Quarter, 2 Stony Silence, and either a Surgical Extraction (hopefully getting Etched Champion) or a Timely Reinforcements. With 2 Zealous Persecution in my main deck, I feel pretty good about my chances.

Quote from Thumbs »

I'm currently aiming to bring in about 5 cards from my sideboard for Affinity. Right now for me, those cards would be 2 Ghost Quarter, 2 Stony Silence, and either a Surgical Extraction (hopefully getting Etched Champion) or a Timely Reinforcements. With 2 Zealous Persecution in my main deck, I feel pretty good about my chances.

Sweet, congrats on the finish at FNM. And yeah, I feel like I'm only worried about Etched Champion. Like we can chump/discard/kill almost any other threat, but Champion just keeps getting through. It sounds really dumb, but i'm considering bringing in 1 of 2 cards in the SB and dropping Kataki all together.

• Sludge Crawler
  
• Smothering Abomination

Given as they're both colourless, they can wall up Champion. Smothering is stronger, but Crawler more specific. If I had 1 in the Side, it would let me drop 2 affinity-specific hate cards, and put another card into a less good matchup. Or at the very least, add a Zealous Persecution and have a more versatile card in that slot.