You don't have to run Liliana. I ran her before the list that went to Worlds or whatever. Why? Because if you choke their hand and choke their field they can't counter and they can't block. You don't have to run her though. Run the basic. No BB, no Liliana. You'll still have a good deck.
Played tonight and went 2-2. Stomped Jund and Burn. Lost to Loam Pox and 5c Humans... Poor draws against Loam and not being prepared for Molten Vortex. And 5c Humans kinda just beat me down similar to Merfolk. I stabilized at 1 life and got blown out by a Mystic Snake of all things...
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The tron matchup is miserable, and UW control. They seem so impossible reason I hate this deck.
What UW control matchup are you commonly facing that is impossible to beat? Something generic with Snaps and Colonnades or the more recent Sun Titan midrange version? I am fifty fifty against what I've come across online. I also love boarding into planeswalkers, which can be hard for them to interact with. Gideon Jura can be impossible to get off the board when behind, and I guess the same with Jace, Architect, but their combination of sweepers and counters isn't all that bad.]]
Edit: Listened to EFro's most recent episode of Constructed Resources, summarizing his World Champs decks and tournaments and what not. Said nothing super insightful about Tokens beyond it having a good matchup against fair decks. He lucked out into 3 RiP against a field of Living End, due to expecting Griselbrand.
Cincy Open. Same list as the New Jersey 5K, but with Sundering Growth over Disenchant.
Round 1, Bye (1-0).
Round 2, Naya Company (1-2, 1-1).
Game 1, he plays some dudes, I make some tokens. I get a Sorin under a Windbrisk Heights and want to get him into play. I don't block some in order to keep three dudes. I flip the Sorin over and get him into play, but leaving behind only a blocking Soldier token for his Goyf. He casts Company grabbing Nacatl and ScOoze. I block the Scooze and trade, but he eats Sorin. From there, he gets Knight, which fetches up Kessig Wolf Run and I can't win. For the second game, my early tokens are boosted when I find an Intangible Virtue and my clock is too much for him when I am able to attack and chump block simultaneously. The third game, he finds an Auriok Champion, his one-of from the sideboard, messing up my ability to clock him. I have tons of tokens, but no way to go on the offensive and I have removal spells for creatures that he targets with Wolf Run, but eventually he comes over with trample damage.
Round 3, 4c Midrange (2-0, 2-1)
Dude added Goyfs and Abrupt Decay to Grixis Control. Bad deck, can't beat Tokens.
Round 4, Big Naya (2-1, 3-1)
His game one keep was double Loxodon Smiter, Stormbreath Dragon, Wilt-Leaf Liege, and three lands hoping to hit an early removal spell. Instead, I Inquisition him and he gets the ol' turn one Smiter. I promptly lose to it, the second one, and the Stormbreath. The second game enabled me to get him back with the ol' planeswalker hard lock. Bitterblossom into Liliana into Sorin got there. Too much value. Our third game is basically decided by his mulligan, as I have removal for his Nacatl and am able to control the board rather easily while beating down.
Round 5, Grixis Twin (2-0, 4-1)
In game 1, I keep Deciever Exarchs off the table and Liliana put him in a stranglehold as I was able to discard all the Lingering Souls. The second game starts off rough as he casts Grim Lavamancer into Izzet Staticaster. Had to Murderous Cut the Staticaster in order to be able to play the game. A discard spell shows me Exarch, Anger of the Gods, and some Bolts. I have no removal for Exarch so I take it. I find an Auriok Champion, opponent reads it, and is like whatever. He effectively counters my Spectral Procession with the Anger of the Gods, which opens the door for me to tap out and jam a Sorin, which gets double Bolted. Luckily, my hand was congested with Sorins so cast another one and get a 4/3 vampire swinging in. The guy currently has an Exarch in play that he can't attack me with and is gonna lose to the Sorin Vampire or to the Sorin itself if he doesn't find a way to deal with it. He rips Splinter Twin off the top, casts it on his Deceiver Exarch, looks at me, and proceeds to scoop up his lands with his cards in hand, which I think was a Dispel and two lands. I look at him and am like, "are you scooping because..." He looks at me, realizes what he done, and just concedes because he can't beat Sorin.
Round 6, Jund (2-0, 5-1)
In game 1, he can't beat my number of tokens with Bolt and Abrupt Decay. Actually, got to crack a Hangarback Walker in order to trade with a Bob. When he is at 10, I put into play two Virtues and he loses. Our second game was awesome for me as I was able to out Jund my Jund opponent. An early Inquisition takes his Bob, showing me a Tasigur, a Hangarback, and two Goyfs. He misses a green mana on his second turn so he leads with a Hangarback that I have to Path, finding him his forest. His turn three is Goyf, which I have him sac with Liliana, who is in turn hit with a Bolt. He casts a Goyf, I cast a Lingering Souls. He removes my graveyard with Nihil Spellbomb, dwarfing his Goyf one toughness but still large enough due to the four cards in his graveyard, being creature, instant, and artifact. He attacks with a 3/4, I block, and in his second main phase, he casts Tasigur, which unbeknownst to him, killed his Goyf. I have Go for the Throat for his Tasigur and commence the beatdown.
Round 7, Evolutionary Combo Elves (0-2, 5-2)
I cast Bitterblossom on turn 2, he comboed me out on turn 3. Game 2, I mulligan to five cards finding Zealous Persecution and sundering Growth. I tap out on turn three to cast an Auriok Champion. The guy proceeds to combo off on turn three. I gain 320 life in the process due to his creating a hundred Elf warrior tokens with Dwynen's Elite. Which he then turns into 50/50s with Joraga Warcaller as I hold a Zealous Persecution. He later tells me that if I had kept mana open he wouldn't have attempted to combo so I had more time than I thought, but still a mulligan to five I can't wait around to hit my fourth land drop and curve perfectly.
Round 8, Merfolk (0-2, 5-3)
Bad matchup, I make 1/1s. He makes unblockable 3/3s.
Round 9, Tron (0-2, 5-4)
Game one was actually enjoyably close. I don't have many tokens, but I keep a hand with Anthem, Lili, Sorin, plus Inquisiton and Path. I snipe his Expedition Map with IoK. The Path hits his turn four Wurmcoil, and I'm firing off Liliana. She ticks up to six and I ultimate her because he has Tron live and I don't have a way of dealing with a Wurmcoil or Karn if he gets them into play and will find them with his Eye of Ugin. He has one Tron piece in hand. I give him that piece plus a Mine and he sacs a Forest, Eye of Ugin, and a Power Plant. I finally hit my fourth land drop and get a Sorin into play, making 3/3s, but he now has his Wurmcoil into play. I get a Hangarback into play and between chump blocking his Wurm with either the Vampire or the Walker, I chose to chump block with the Hangarback in order to make 2/2 Thopters, which I'm gonna pump with Sorin and swing for lethal with. Instead, he activates an Ostone. I wrestle with his 3/3s for a while with a Bitterblossom that I was able to get into play, but this entire time he had been building his mana and grabs an Emrakul. Game two, I mulligan bad hands and find a Stony Silence, Anthem, and Path in my five. Silence slows him down, I find no clock and proceed to lose.
Wheels fell off due to bad matchups, but that's modern. Twenty three lands still forces way too many mulligans, but otherwise the deck ran fine. I think as Blood Moon has been on the decline that Sundering Growth seems a viable option.
Edit: That day two metagame breakdown, barring Merfolk and Amulet, looks pretty solid for tokens
Leyline of Punishment is pretty annoying out of burn. After board I probably have 4 cards that can remove it, but if I keep an Auriok + Firewalker hand I've got a good chance of just losing to it. Makes Leyline of Sanctity more appealing, I guess.
now that we know that battle for zendikar have enemy color manlands, u guys think there is enough space in the deck to put a pair of those?(assuming that the bw manland is good or decent, maybe something like 2/2 deathtouch lifelink ),instead of isolated chapels for example
now that we know that battle for zendikar have enemy color manlands, u guys think there is enough space in the deck to put a pair of those?(assuming that the bw manland is good or decent, maybe something like 2/2 deathtouch lifelink ),instead of isolated chapels for example
I was just thinking this. We'll have to wait and see till they're spoiled but I have high hopes.
Also does anyone see any potential in the Gideon as a 1 of?
Leyline of Punishment is pretty annoying out of burn. After board I probably have 4 cards that can remove it, but if I keep an Auriok + Firewalker hand I've got a good chance of just losing to it. Makes Leyline of Sanctity more appealing, I guess.
I have never seen a burn list run that. And Leyline of Sanctity still gets blown out by Destructive Revelry, which they are already bringing in against us. I'm pretty sure there is no way of beating that card barring a draw that lines up well with blocking. And bringing in your one or two Disenchant effects.
The BW manland, if good, will probably replace some number of Windbrisk Heights, the eighth fetch, and maybe the second Chapel. A 2/2 with deathtouch and lifelink, however, I doubt would be worth it unless your list was running Honor of the Pure that could pump it.
Edit: New Gideon is competing with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I think he is better than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, but that has long been cut from lists. Gideon is also probably better in our deck than Elspeth, Knight Errant. Where Gideon becomes an auto-include is lists that are still running Ajani Goldmane. Gideon is just strictly better than that card.
The real question is does Gideon replace lists running Liliana?
One is a four mana token generator. The other is a three mana way of stripping combo of cards, controlling the board, and potential win condition. I think Liliana makes the deck competitive in a way that was really lacking before I tested her in the main.
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2BB
Creature - Eldrazi
Devoid (This card has no color.)
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature.
Whenever you sacrifice a creature, draw a card.
4/3
Might be playable, 3 toughness are more on the bad side though. I will at least try it.
Would you run that over Hero of Bladehold at four mana? It basically turns Bitterblossom into a Phyrexian Arena. I'd rather run Phyrexian Arena since it doesn't have three toughness.
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Problems:
It's a creature which turns on their removal spells
It's a 4 drop that dies to bolt without impacting the board
It's too slow in matchups where you need to go fast
I like Ob. Do I think he is the right planeswalker to throw in our deck? No. When we cast something we have to look at to things: 1. What can this card do immediately for me? And 2: What is the most I can get out of this card logically.
Okay hopping to point 1. Turn 5 at best is when Ob will come out Unless you cheat him in with Windbrisk. Immediately he can net you a card that most likely you wont be able to do anything with and he will cost you a life as well. So, adding up 7-8 Fetches, 4 Shocklands, 4 Thoughtseize and whatever damage your opponent can swing through, you now have Ob. His second ability is fairly costed and can kill off a creature immediately (It still can regenerate though.)
And revolving to point 2. Logically for me when I cast a planeswalker I like to look at all the abilities. It's kind of like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad Did you ever REALLY want to ULT him...? Really? No. Our deck has no way of utilizing his ULT to it's full potential. Yes, it's a cool thought, but I'd much rather use his +1 Phyrexian Arena and his -3 Murder. So for 5 Mana I don't believe it's worth it.
The real question is does Gideon replace lists running Liliana?
No. I've been running Liliana for a WHILE. Well before the list came out and she adds a second time clock to our opponents. I firmly believe in 3 Sorin 3.0, 2 Liliana of the Veil, and 1 Gideon 3.0 I love Gideon.
2BB
Creature - Eldrazi
Devoid (This card has no color.)
Flying
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature.
Whenever you sacrifice a creature, draw a card.
4/3
Might be playable, 3 toughness are more on the bad side though. I will at least try it.
I like Ob. Do I think he is the right planeswalker to throw in our deck? No. When we cast something we have to look at to things: 1. What can this card do immediately for me? And 2: What is the most I can get out of this card logically.
Okay hopping to point 1. Turn 5 at best is when Ob will come out Unless you cheat him in with Windbrisk. Immediately he can net you a card that most likely you wont be able to do anything with and he will cost you a life as well. So, adding up 7-8 Fetches, 4 Shocklands, 4 Thoughtseize and whatever damage your opponent can swing through, you now have Ob. His second ability is fairly costed and can kill off a creature immediately (It still can regenerate though.)
And revolving to point 2. Logically for me when I cast a planeswalker I like to look at all the abilities. It's kind of like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad Did you ever REALLY want to ULT him...? Really? No. Our deck has no way of utilizing his ULT to it's full potential. Yes, it's a cool thought, but I'd much rather use his +1 Phyrexian Arena and his -3 Murder. So for 5 Mana I don't believe it's worth it.
The real question is does Gideon replace lists running Liliana?
No. I've been running Liliana for a WHILE. Well before the list came out and she adds a second time clock to our opponents. I firmly believe in 3 Sorin 3.0, 2 Liliana of the Veil, and 1 Gideon 3.0 I love Gideon.
Gideon is to white as Liliana is to black for us.
The new Ob is a terrible card for BW Tokens. Even Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a better card to slot into the deck than that.
I'd much rather use his +1 Phyrexian Arena and his -3 Murder. So for 5 Mana I don't believe it's worth it.
I actually run a couple Phyrexian Arena and am pretty happy with it, though I don't own Lilianas or it'd be a tougher call.
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I've been running Liliana for a WHILE. Well before the list came out and she adds a second time clock to our opponents. I firmly believe in 3 Sorin 3.0, 2 Liliana of the Veil, and 1 Gideon 3.0 I love Gideon.
Gideon 3.0 being flip Gideon? The spoiled upcoming Gideon (which I'd call 4.0, I think) seems close to as good as 4-cmc Elspeth. 2/2 tokens are sweet. But the +1 seems riskier than hopping a token.
There's no way I'd run the Smothering Abomination, but I do think it might enable some sort of new deck that operates differently. I don't think there are many other cards that let you sacrifice token creatures to draw cards and in the right deck it's conceivable that it's more of a pay 4, draw 4 with a sac outlet than something you expect to keep alive.
Edit: Listened to EFro's most recent episode of Constructed Resources, summarizing his World Champs decks and tournaments and what not. Said nothing super insightful about Tokens beyond it having a good matchup against fair decks. He lucked out into 3 RiP against a field of Living End, due to expecting Griselbrand.
Round 1, Bye (1-0).
Round 2, Naya Company (1-2, 1-1).
Game 1, he plays some dudes, I make some tokens. I get a Sorin under a Windbrisk Heights and want to get him into play. I don't block some in order to keep three dudes. I flip the Sorin over and get him into play, but leaving behind only a blocking Soldier token for his Goyf. He casts Company grabbing Nacatl and ScOoze. I block the Scooze and trade, but he eats Sorin. From there, he gets Knight, which fetches up Kessig Wolf Run and I can't win. For the second game, my early tokens are boosted when I find an Intangible Virtue and my clock is too much for him when I am able to attack and chump block simultaneously. The third game, he finds an Auriok Champion, his one-of from the sideboard, messing up my ability to clock him. I have tons of tokens, but no way to go on the offensive and I have removal spells for creatures that he targets with Wolf Run, but eventually he comes over with trample damage.
Round 3, 4c Midrange (2-0, 2-1)
Dude added Goyfs and Abrupt Decay to Grixis Control. Bad deck, can't beat Tokens.
Round 4, Big Naya (2-1, 3-1)
His game one keep was double Loxodon Smiter, Stormbreath Dragon, Wilt-Leaf Liege, and three lands hoping to hit an early removal spell. Instead, I Inquisition him and he gets the ol' turn one Smiter. I promptly lose to it, the second one, and the Stormbreath. The second game enabled me to get him back with the ol' planeswalker hard lock. Bitterblossom into Liliana into Sorin got there. Too much value. Our third game is basically decided by his mulligan, as I have removal for his Nacatl and am able to control the board rather easily while beating down.
Round 5, Grixis Twin (2-0, 4-1)
In game 1, I keep Deciever Exarchs off the table and Liliana put him in a stranglehold as I was able to discard all the Lingering Souls. The second game starts off rough as he casts Grim Lavamancer into Izzet Staticaster. Had to Murderous Cut the Staticaster in order to be able to play the game. A discard spell shows me Exarch, Anger of the Gods, and some Bolts. I have no removal for Exarch so I take it. I find an Auriok Champion, opponent reads it, and is like whatever. He effectively counters my Spectral Procession with the Anger of the Gods, which opens the door for me to tap out and jam a Sorin, which gets double Bolted. Luckily, my hand was congested with Sorins so cast another one and get a 4/3 vampire swinging in. The guy currently has an Exarch in play that he can't attack me with and is gonna lose to the Sorin Vampire or to the Sorin itself if he doesn't find a way to deal with it. He rips Splinter Twin off the top, casts it on his Deceiver Exarch, looks at me, and proceeds to scoop up his lands with his cards in hand, which I think was a Dispel and two lands. I look at him and am like, "are you scooping because..." He looks at me, realizes what he done, and just concedes because he can't beat Sorin.
Round 6, Jund (2-0, 5-1)
In game 1, he can't beat my number of tokens with Bolt and Abrupt Decay. Actually, got to crack a Hangarback Walker in order to trade with a Bob. When he is at 10, I put into play two Virtues and he loses. Our second game was awesome for me as I was able to out Jund my Jund opponent. An early Inquisition takes his Bob, showing me a Tasigur, a Hangarback, and two Goyfs. He misses a green mana on his second turn so he leads with a Hangarback that I have to Path, finding him his forest. His turn three is Goyf, which I have him sac with Liliana, who is in turn hit with a Bolt. He casts a Goyf, I cast a Lingering Souls. He removes my graveyard with Nihil Spellbomb, dwarfing his Goyf one toughness but still large enough due to the four cards in his graveyard, being creature, instant, and artifact. He attacks with a 3/4, I block, and in his second main phase, he casts Tasigur, which unbeknownst to him, killed his Goyf. I have Go for the Throat for his Tasigur and commence the beatdown.
Round 7, Evolutionary Combo Elves (0-2, 5-2)
I cast Bitterblossom on turn 2, he comboed me out on turn 3. Game 2, I mulligan to five cards finding Zealous Persecution and sundering Growth. I tap out on turn three to cast an Auriok Champion. The guy proceeds to combo off on turn three. I gain 320 life in the process due to his creating a hundred Elf warrior tokens with Dwynen's Elite. Which he then turns into 50/50s with Joraga Warcaller as I hold a Zealous Persecution. He later tells me that if I had kept mana open he wouldn't have attempted to combo so I had more time than I thought, but still a mulligan to five I can't wait around to hit my fourth land drop and curve perfectly.
Round 8, Merfolk (0-2, 5-3)
Bad matchup, I make 1/1s. He makes unblockable 3/3s.
Round 9, Tron (0-2, 5-4)
Game one was actually enjoyably close. I don't have many tokens, but I keep a hand with Anthem, Lili, Sorin, plus Inquisiton and Path. I snipe his Expedition Map with IoK. The Path hits his turn four Wurmcoil, and I'm firing off Liliana. She ticks up to six and I ultimate her because he has Tron live and I don't have a way of dealing with a Wurmcoil or Karn if he gets them into play and will find them with his Eye of Ugin. He has one Tron piece in hand. I give him that piece plus a Mine and he sacs a Forest, Eye of Ugin, and a Power Plant. I finally hit my fourth land drop and get a Sorin into play, making 3/3s, but he now has his Wurmcoil into play. I get a Hangarback into play and between chump blocking his Wurm with either the Vampire or the Walker, I chose to chump block with the Hangarback in order to make 2/2 Thopters, which I'm gonna pump with Sorin and swing for lethal with. Instead, he activates an Ostone. I wrestle with his 3/3s for a while with a Bitterblossom that I was able to get into play, but this entire time he had been building his mana and grabs an Emrakul. Game two, I mulligan bad hands and find a Stony Silence, Anthem, and Path in my five. Silence slows him down, I find no clock and proceed to lose.
Wheels fell off due to bad matchups, but that's modern. Twenty three lands still forces way too many mulligans, but otherwise the deck ran fine. I think as Blood Moon has been on the decline that Sundering Growth seems a viable option.
Edit: That day two metagame breakdown, barring Merfolk and Amulet, looks pretty solid for tokens
Creature Tokens you control get +1/+1. As long as you control 3 or more creature Tokens, they gain indestructible.
An anthem like this would be great but not too overpowerered, especially in most other decks.
What do you mean?
I was just thinking this. We'll have to wait and see till they're spoiled but I have high hopes.
Also does anyone see any potential in the Gideon as a 1 of?
BWB/W TokensBW
The BW manland, if good, will probably replace some number of Windbrisk Heights, the eighth fetch, and maybe the second Chapel. A 2/2 with deathtouch and lifelink, however, I doubt would be worth it unless your list was running Honor of the Pure that could pump it.
Edit: New Gideon is competing with Sorin, Solemn Visitor and Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I think he is better than Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, but that has long been cut from lists. Gideon is also probably better in our deck than Elspeth, Knight Errant. Where Gideon becomes an auto-include is lists that are still running Ajani Goldmane. Gideon is just strictly better than that card.
GU Infect | x Affinity | RWG Naya Burn | W Death and Taxes | U Merfolk | BURG BTL Scapeshift | WUUW Titan | R Goblins | BURGW Suicide Zoo
Would you run that over Hero of Bladehold at four mana? It basically turns Bitterblossom into a Phyrexian Arena. I'd rather run Phyrexian Arena since it doesn't have three toughness.
Problems:
It's a creature which turns on their removal spells
It's a 4 drop that dies to bolt without impacting the board
It's too slow in matchups where you need to go fast
Okay hopping to point 1. Turn 5 at best is when Ob will come out Unless you cheat him in with Windbrisk. Immediately he can net you a card that most likely you wont be able to do anything with and he will cost you a life as well. So, adding up 7-8 Fetches, 4 Shocklands, 4 Thoughtseize and whatever damage your opponent can swing through, you now have Ob. His second ability is fairly costed and can kill off a creature immediately (It still can regenerate though.)
And revolving to point 2. Logically for me when I cast a planeswalker I like to look at all the abilities. It's kind of like Sorin, Lord of Innistrad Did you ever REALLY want to ULT him...? Really? No. Our deck has no way of utilizing his ULT to it's full potential. Yes, it's a cool thought, but I'd much rather use his +1 Phyrexian Arena and his -3 Murder. So for 5 Mana I don't believe it's worth it.
No. I've been running Liliana for a WHILE. Well before the list came out and she adds a second time clock to our opponents. I firmly believe in 3 Sorin 3.0, 2 Liliana of the Veil, and 1 Gideon 3.0 I love Gideon.
Gideon is to white as Liliana is to black for us.
Nope. Terrible card.
The new Ob is a terrible card for BW Tokens. Even Elspeth, Sun's Champion is a better card to slot into the deck than that.
Active thread contributor of Jeskai Prowess Tempo
I actually run a couple Phyrexian Arena and am pretty happy with it, though I don't own Lilianas or it'd be a tougher call.
Gideon 3.0 being flip Gideon? The spoiled upcoming Gideon (which I'd call 4.0, I think) seems close to as good as 4-cmc Elspeth. 2/2 tokens are sweet. But the +1 seems riskier than hopping a token.
There's no way I'd run the Smothering Abomination, but I do think it might enable some sort of new deck that operates differently. I don't think there are many other cards that let you sacrifice token creatures to draw cards and in the right deck it's conceivable that it's more of a pay 4, draw 4 with a sac outlet than something you expect to keep alive.