Blind Obedience doesn't stop twin as they can active twin during your end step and untap with the kill next turn. So against Jund if you were using this deck :
Playing with Khans White fetches and Godless Shrine is fine. You don't need Marsh Flats because you almost always search for plains or godless shrine. Marsh flats only helps in that 1/100 games anyway so you should be fine. I run a one of Caves of Koilos in my list and i like it in there. There wasn't anything I've added to my deck since Origins.
One should almost certainly play more than four fetches, so some non-Marsh Flats are definitely in order. Marsh Flats is clearly better, but any of the other three is as good as any of the others provided one is playing only BW.
A single Caves of Koilos is fine, as is a single Isolated Chapel. One shouldn't run too many of either of those two. One might get away two or three Chapels as long as one isn't running much else in the non-Swamp, non-Plains category. Too many Caves just hurt.
Fortunately, one needn't run more than two of these two combined as there are plenty of other good options. The simpliest is just more white fetches. A Fetid Heath or two is also in order.
Against Twin, you are trying to play a slow grind, holding up removal when you know they got it and often jamming your dudes when you need to establish an early board presence.
but this, this isn't the way i wanna play against Twin. i want to kill them as soon as possible. the longer game, the better chance for a Twin player to draw anything they want. blue has much better ways to draw all the cards they need.
And so that is what most Twin players are going to be expecting out of this deck. I'm one of the few people that play this deck in my local two city metagame it seems and so people are surprised by how well this deck can actually grind. If you have access to seven discard spells and six removal spells then I think you can easily risk slowing down against them. When the Twin player isn't expecting you to grind, they are expecting to wait for a window in which you tap out and they are simply hovering over it. In the same way that we don't want to tap out against them, this forces them to not be able to jam it against us. When you can take out two Twin targets like it's nothing, their ears perk up. I just remember last weekend at the PPTQ, I left up a single Godless Shrine, representing Path, my opponent goes to tap it, I float black and Murderous Cut him. My opponent was blown away, thinking I was just floating just to float. Something like Liliana and BB, make up for the card selection that they are going to be gaining. They aren't going to have card advantage per se, given cantrips in modern. Instant speed action like Raise the Alarm also helps in terms of keeping pressure on them.
Against Jund, I would cut a Timely, an Inquisition and a Zealous Persecution, adding two Rest in Peace, one Dismember, and cut two Inquisition for Auriok Champion. Champion might be worse than Timely, but I have never had great experience with Timely against Jund. Against Abzan, it is totally different and I like Timely there.
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Blind Obedience doesn't stop twin as they can active twin during your end step and untap with the kill next turn.
Definitely it's a line of play you need to watch out for. But it still allows you to bait the combo and avoid having to leave mana open by letting you tap out without risking immediate death. Anyway, it's just one of ~12 cards that help to some degree post board. More particularly I dislike torpor orb because it screws with my own Aurioks. Could maybe just play more spellskites, I guess, but I'd miss the incremental lifegain.
I do agree with everyone that trying to aggro twin is a terrible idea. Rather, IMO, you want to disrupt and tax their gameplan and then grind them out. And you have maybe 2 turns to initiate the grind, so you can't spend them on aggro.
Blind Obedience doesn't stop twin as they can active twin during your end step and untap with the kill next turn.
Definitely it's a line of play you need to watch out for. But it still allows you to bait the combo and avoid having to leave mana open by letting you tap out without risking immediate death. Anyway, it's just one of ~12 cards that help to some degree post board. More particularly I dislike torpor orb because it screws with my own Aurioks. Could maybe just play more spellskites, I guess, but I'd miss the incremental lifegain.
I do agree with everyone that trying to aggro twin is a terrible idea. Rather, IMO, you want to disrupt and tax their gameplan and then grind them out. And you have maybe 2 turns to initiate the grind, so you can't spend them on aggro.
In my descriptions of how I play against Twin, I had forgotten to mention Auriok Champion, which really forces their hand on Cryptic bouncing it or relying on Pestermite, which can be a blowout if you keep ZP in against them.
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Has anyone tested out Hangarback Walker? It theoretically provides a resilient, proactive early play and the ability to go tall if necessary (granted it will take a while to get there but this deck goes long anyway...). While it technically turn on removal, it's nearly always going to be a 2+ for 1 in a meta with very few Paths around.
Has anyone tested out Hangarback Walker? It theoretically provides a resilient, proactive early play and the ability to go tall if necessary (granted it will take a while to get there but this deck goes long anyway...). While it technically turn on removal, it's nearly always going to be a 2+ for 1 in a meta with very few Paths around.
The problem I have with it is that our game plan is severely hurt by holding up one mana until after turn 4 in most games.
well... let's say you play it T2 with 1 counter, then you spend each turn 1 mana to put a counter on. then it needs to die. than you have some tokens. Bitterblossom does the very same each turn for 0 mana and you can use the tokens right in the moment
Bitterblossom is 0 mana but 1 life per turn which some people have been complaining about. Obviously each have pros/cons which is why I am wondering if it's been tested.
Edit: the reason I brought it up is that there was a discussion about a Jund list running it, and it seems to fit the Tokens plan much better than Jund.
Is entreat the angels a possible card choice or is it just not good enough in this deck? I wanted to try b/w tokens and thought of running at least one. I just like the shock factor this card can give
I had Entreat as a one of/two of at times, including Grand Prix Omaha, and it's never gone off right. Usually a dead card or win more for non-miracle cost. 90% of the time I could cast it for miracle cost earlier, I needed to do something else that turn. I think it needs a mana ramp to support, and Windbrisk doesn't help it. We have more game changing cards.
Playing with Khans White fetches and Godless Shrine is fine. You don't need Marsh Flats because you almost always search for plains or godless shrine. Marsh flats only helps in that 1/100 games anyway so you should be fine. I run a one of Caves of Koilos in my list and i like it in there. There wasn't anything I've added to my deck since Origins.
So far as Origins goes, the B2 regenerate your creatures draw a card with spell mastery is plausible as a sideboard card in much the same way rootborn defenses might be. Archangel of Tithes might also be plausible in the right build. The most recently printed card I'm running is Secure the Wastes (I think).
Yes Dark Dabbling is quite good. I know the regenerate tapped vs. indestructible/populate is a debate ... but the times that one card bails you out, more so than one extra token. People have talked about having Relic of Progenitus or Horizon Canopy for that one card, neither saving your tokens, so card draw is to be taken seriously. However, it's really a toss up. Usually you play either fairly mid/late-game after you've chump blocked or they've tried some sort of board wipe pre-combat. If the latter, then Rootborn Defenses is the better choice, but that's usually not until post sideboard and more rare than chump blocking and having your vigilance creatures live to finish the game next turn ... with an extra card.
In the end, I'm testing with one Dark Dabbling MB and one each of Dark Dabbling and a Rootborn Defenses sideboard. I have Auriok Champions sideboard, so Rootborn Defenses with her is okay, an extra life to boot if vs. burn (expecting Anger of the Gods or Pyroclasm post-sideboard). Any other times, when they will sideboard more creature control, I pull in the second Dark Dabbling. Dark Dabbling has so far never failed to change the game except against control where they often counter. Grixis is still a problem deck for me. Pyroclasm - Dark Dabbling - Snapcaster Mage - Pyroclasm (or Anger of the Gods) is one reason you pull in Rootborn Defenses.
Against Grixis they can just wait til rootborn defenses' buff goes away then snapcaster mage back the Pyroclasm so not much of pro there. I don't see too much of a need for either though, If I felt i needed an answer to boardwipes i'd just bring in more discard becasue that has other uses if they don't have the board wipe in your hand. Being proactive is better than reactive in this format, that's the main reason Grixis is such a strong deck because it can change to be proactive when the situations requires it to.
It's... okay. I spent a long time refining it, but it's pretty firmly tier 2 or 3. I've been thinking about shoving some Hangarback Walkers in there, since we lack good two-drops. Has anyone tried him in a shell like this? Sometimes he'll be a more expensive Doomed Traveler, but given that he's not a late-game brick, I think he's better for us. It's also not as great given that Kolaghan's Command is seeing so much play, but we do very well against those decks. Once I have a playset, I'll be testing out this list:
I want to quickly touch on my exclusion of Tidehollow Scullers in the main deck: it's so bad to play them when our opponent has any sort of spot removal (he's the only good target!), so I feel he's much better out of the sideboard.
I also want to ask if anyone has tried out a blue splash for the new Jace. Playing three colors creates quite the tensions on our manabase, between Lili and procession, so it might be best to drop Lili and treat procession as somewhere between a three- and four-drop; still, Jace is a good two-drop, which is what the deck sorely lacks. He doesn't seem insane, but he's nice with Lingering Souls and if we're just treading water trying to refine a tier three deck then I think any sort of new idea is worth exploring.
Looking to not lose to Amulet or Tron, while being able to hang with Burn and Delver. Most likely some GBx and Affinity as well. Really hoping to lock some Zoo, Merfolk, or Affinity folks out of the game with Prison. We'll see.
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Im trying to run Smurfs again. I already got 2nd on a PPTQ with the traditional build, but I think this combo can, alongside with the straight strategy, win several games. On the SB, we can exchange the combo with some creatures and to deal with burn.
Lost to Jund and Infect. Beat Elves, Tron, and Soorani's most recent Esper list. A weird day. Infect opponent played Dryad Arbor and a land on turn 1 both games and it totally didn't dawn on me until an hour later that that would be a good reason as to why he always had mana when I went to remove his creatures. I feel like a huge idiot.
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Lost to Jund and Infect. Beat Elves, Tron, and Soorani's most recent Esper list. A weird day. Infect opponent played Dryad Arbor and a land on turn 1 both games and it totally didn't dawn on me until an hour later that that would be a good reason as to why he always had mana when I went to remove his creatures. I feel like a huge idiot.
That's awesome Any big problems with Jund or they just got the better draw scenario?
Lost to Jund and Infect. Beat Elves, Tron, and Soorani's most recent Esper list. A weird day. Infect opponent played Dryad Arbor and a land on turn 1 both games and it totally didn't dawn on me until an hour later that that would be a good reason as to why he always had mana when I went to remove his creatures. I feel like a huge idiot.
That's awesome Any big problems with Jund or they just got the better draw scenario?
Game 1, I perhaps misused my tokens. I was trading three tokens for a Scavenging Ooze and three tokens for a Treetop Village and eventually lost to my own BB. Unsure if I'm supposed to be just chump blocking and trying to race Treetop Village or if trading resources is better in the long run. I assumed the latter, but failed on the race part and so BB caught up to me. Game 2, I roll him with Raise, Spectral, into Intangible. Game 3, I probably should have boarded out a land on the draw, but he slowly widdles away at my board and I'm trying to race him and only ripped lands. I think I drew three lands in a row when I already at five in play. But on the draw, I was running 24 lands today and wanted to be more aggressive about sideboarding out a land and it just slipped my mind. Obviously, I just wasn't sharp today.
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When you came to the conclusion to block the scavenging ooze and the treetop village did he have many cards in hand, it's definitely the correct play then I feel, but otherwise if you have a bitterblossom online with any kind of pump I think racing is the best option.
What are the bad match up for wb token? For me I seems to be losing to merfolk and twin
Tron is terrible. Merfolk is pretty bad because Tokens is susceptible to blue tempo in general, and unblockability invalidates the defensiveness of tokens. Twin is not that bad, it's a matter of being patient but realizing you have to get a clock going since you are equally grindy but they have inevitability.
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4 Godless Shrine
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Swamp
3 Windbrisk Heights
3 Isolated Chapel
4 Path to Exile
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Raise the Alarm
1 Dismember
4 Spectral Procession
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Timely Reinforcements
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Bitterblossom
3 Duress
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Auriok Champion
3 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Dismember
1 Sundering Growth
Would your sideboard plan look like:
-4 IoK
-3 Thoughtseize
+2 RIP
+1 Relic
+1 Timely
+1 Dismember
+2 Auriok Champion
One should almost certainly play more than four fetches, so some non-Marsh Flats are definitely in order. Marsh Flats is clearly better, but any of the other three is as good as any of the others provided one is playing only BW.
A single Caves of Koilos is fine, as is a single Isolated Chapel. One shouldn't run too many of either of those two. One might get away two or three Chapels as long as one isn't running much else in the non-Swamp, non-Plains category. Too many Caves just hurt.
Fortunately, one needn't run more than two of these two combined as there are plenty of other good options. The simpliest is just more white fetches. A Fetid Heath or two is also in order.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Against Jund, I would cut a Timely, an Inquisition and a Zealous Persecution, adding two Rest in Peace, one Dismember, and cut two Inquisition for Auriok Champion. Champion might be worse than Timely, but I have never had great experience with Timely against Jund. Against Abzan, it is totally different and I like Timely there.
Definitely it's a line of play you need to watch out for. But it still allows you to bait the combo and avoid having to leave mana open by letting you tap out without risking immediate death. Anyway, it's just one of ~12 cards that help to some degree post board. More particularly I dislike torpor orb because it screws with my own Aurioks. Could maybe just play more spellskites, I guess, but I'd miss the incremental lifegain.
I do agree with everyone that trying to aggro twin is a terrible idea. Rather, IMO, you want to disrupt and tax their gameplan and then grind them out. And you have maybe 2 turns to initiate the grind, so you can't spend them on aggro.
In my descriptions of how I play against Twin, I had forgotten to mention Auriok Champion, which really forces their hand on Cryptic bouncing it or relying on Pestermite, which can be a blowout if you keep ZP in against them.
The problem I have with it is that our game plan is severely hurt by holding up one mana until after turn 4 in most games.
Bitterblossom is 0 mana but 1 life per turn which some people have been complaining about. Obviously each have pros/cons which is why I am wondering if it's been tested.
Edit: the reason I brought it up is that there was a discussion about a Jund list running it, and it seems to fit the Tokens plan much better than Jund.
I had Entreat as a one of/two of at times, including Grand Prix Omaha, and it's never gone off right. Usually a dead card or win more for non-miracle cost. 90% of the time I could cast it for miracle cost earlier, I needed to do something else that turn. I think it needs a mana ramp to support, and Windbrisk doesn't help it. We have more game changing cards.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
Yes Dark Dabbling is quite good. I know the regenerate tapped vs. indestructible/populate is a debate ... but the times that one card bails you out, more so than one extra token. People have talked about having Relic of Progenitus or Horizon Canopy for that one card, neither saving your tokens, so card draw is to be taken seriously. However, it's really a toss up. Usually you play either fairly mid/late-game after you've chump blocked or they've tried some sort of board wipe pre-combat. If the latter, then Rootborn Defenses is the better choice, but that's usually not until post sideboard and more rare than chump blocking and having your vigilance creatures live to finish the game next turn ... with an extra card.
In the end, I'm testing with one Dark Dabbling MB and one each of Dark Dabbling and a Rootborn Defenses sideboard. I have Auriok Champions sideboard, so Rootborn Defenses with her is okay, an extra life to boot if vs. burn (expecting Anger of the Gods or Pyroclasm post-sideboard). Any other times, when they will sideboard more creature control, I pull in the second Dark Dabbling. Dark Dabbling has so far never failed to change the game except against control where they often counter. Grixis is still a problem deck for me. Pyroclasm - Dark Dabbling - Snapcaster Mage - Pyroclasm (or Anger of the Gods) is one reason you pull in Rootborn Defenses.
Kind of up to your meta I guess.
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc
1 Caves of Koilos
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Vault of the Archangel
4 Windbrisk Heights
4 Windswept Heath
Token Generators (15)
4 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
2 Secure the Wastes
1 Timely Reinforcements
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Hand Disruption (6)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Removal (7)
4 Path to Exile
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Duress
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Wrath of God
1 Fulminator Mage
It's... okay. I spent a long time refining it, but it's pretty firmly tier 2 or 3. I've been thinking about shoving some Hangarback Walkers in there, since we lack good two-drops. Has anyone tried him in a shell like this? Sometimes he'll be a more expensive Doomed Traveler, but given that he's not a late-game brick, I think he's better for us. It's also not as great given that Kolaghan's Command is seeing so much play, but we do very well against those decks. Once I have a playset, I'll be testing out this list:
1 Caves of Koilos
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Windswept Heath
Token Generators (15)
3 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Hand Disruption (6)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Removal (7)
4 Path to Exile
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ghostly Prison
2 Stony Silence
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Hero of Bladehold
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Wrath of God
1 Fulminator Mage
I want to quickly touch on my exclusion of Tidehollow Scullers in the main deck: it's so bad to play them when our opponent has any sort of spot removal (he's the only good target!), so I feel he's much better out of the sideboard.
I also want to ask if anyone has tried out a blue splash for the new Jace. Playing three colors creates quite the tensions on our manabase, between Lili and procession, so it might be best to drop Lili and treat procession as somewhere between a three- and four-drop; still, Jace is a good two-drop, which is what the deck sorely lacks. He doesn't seem insane, but he's nice with Lingering Souls and if we're just treading water trying to refine a tier three deck then I think any sort of new idea is worth exploring.
2 Fetid Heath
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Vault of the Archangel
2 Windbrisk Heights
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Snapcaster Mage
Token Generators (12)
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Raise the Alarm
Anthems (7)
3 Intangible Virtue
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
1 Mana Leak
2 Auriok Champion
2 Stony Silence
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Disenchant
1 Duress
1 Rest in Peace
1 Go for the Throat
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Kor Firewalker
Looking to not lose to Amulet or Tron, while being able to hang with Burn and Delver. Most likely some GBx and Affinity as well. Really hoping to lock some Zoo, Merfolk, or Affinity folks out of the game with Prison. We'll see.
4x Flooded Strand
4x Godless Shrine
2x Hallowed Fountain
4x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Watery Grave
4x Windbrisk Heights
Enchantment (6)
2x Honor of the Pure
4x Intangible Virtue
Artifact (1)
1x Proteus Staff
2x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Instant (10)
1x Go for the Throat
1x Murderous Cut
4x Path to Exile
3x Raise the Alarm
1x Slaughter Pact
Sorcery (17)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Polymorph
4x Spectral Procession
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Auriok Champion
2x Disenchant
2x Hero of Bladehold
1x Hour of Reckoning
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
Im trying to run Smurfs again. I already got 2nd on a PPTQ with the traditional build, but I think this combo can, alongside with the straight strategy, win several games. On the SB, we can exchange the combo with some creatures and to deal with burn.
That's awesome Any big problems with Jund or they just got the better draw scenario?
Tron is terrible. Merfolk is pretty bad because Tokens is susceptible to blue tempo in general, and unblockability invalidates the defensiveness of tokens. Twin is not that bad, it's a matter of being patient but realizing you have to get a clock going since you are equally grindy but they have inevitability.