Hmmm...after a bit of testing, the second swamp and extra isolated chaps don't really work well. Fetid heath is out of my budget right now but I was thinking about it.the nevermore is for this one guy in my playgroup that plays propaganda and that annoying Net where you must exile a card in your gy before you could attack.
Hmmm...after a bit of testing, the second swamp and extra isolated chaps don't really work well. Fetid heath is out of my budget right now but I was thinking about it.the nevermore is for this one guy in my playgroup that plays propaganda and that annoying Net where you must exile a card in your gy before you could attack.
I'll be testing this revised, list. hopefully it does better, moved the nevermores to the SB again.
hmmm...I play 4 BB cause it draws the discards my opponents have away from my other spells. I know, I have a weird playgroup. lol
Pretty sure propaganda is not legal in modern, and even if it was there are better answers than nevermore. Also 3 colorless sources is too many especially when running chapels and heights. Spectral procession is something you want to almost always be able to pay 3 for only, I'd personally drop Elspeth as well and at least 1 dismember to get up to 4 raise the alarm.
Yep,his propaganda deck is a casual brew. His main modern deck is infect. We choose random decks to play with but we're getting a bit bored due to mismatches. So we are gradually upgrading most of our decks to modern format.
I'm thinking of getting a 3rd sorin in there and cutting one more chapel or vault. I'm also thinking of just maindeck 1 dismember for a sac removal (geth's verdict?) not yet sure, have to test with proxies before I get everything.
I think Grixis Control is actually a very good matchup for us, same with Jund.
How about Elves and Merfolk?
It depends, of course, on the sideboard you plan on using. Against Jund, I bring in two Rest in Peace to turn off Goyf and Command, and more removal in the form of Go for the Throat and Lilianas. Against Grixis control, I pretty much do the same thing. Elves and Merfolk are awful matchups and so you have to decide how you want to attack them. I bring in Go for the Throat and an Hour of Reckoning, if I have it in my board although Engineered Explosives might be better, but I haven't tested it. Zealous Persecution is better against Elves than Merfolk, but it can do some work against Merfolk early or if you get the chance to block. I bring in a Disenchant for Spreading Seas against Merfolk in order to be able to block, which is how we can leverage all of our dorks. I'm almost tempted to bring in Surgical Extraction for Ezuri against Elves. I've lost games in which I have killed five Ezuris, two of which got Pathed, and the other one was recurred by Eternal Witness after I had Murderous Cut and Dismembered him.
Grixis Control
+1 Dismember, +1 Go for the Throat, +2 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Rest in Peace, -1 Bitterblossom, -2 Timely Reinforcements, -1 Raise the Alarm, -1 Zealous Persecution, -1 Raise the Alarm
Jund
+1 Dismember, +1 Go for the Throat, +2 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Rest in Peace, -2 Timely Reinforcements, -1 Zealous Persecution, -2 Inquisition of Kozilek, -1 Thoughtseize
Elves
+1 Hour of Reckoning, +1 Dismember, +1 Go for the Throat, -3 Bitterblossom
Merfolk
+1 Hour of Reckoning, +1 Dismember, +1 Go for the Throat, +2 Liliana (on the play), -2 Timely Reinforcements, -1 Bitterblossom, -2 Bitterblossom (on the play)
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I would not maindeck Nevermore, you don't need the second swamp, and Spectral and Raise aren't really interchangeable. I would choose Spectral before Raise, but cutting Nevermore and the 25th land, should give you space for Raise. Four Bitterblossom can also be a bit much, especially when you're running Elspeth over the third Sorin.
I can absolutely see playing a second Swamp if one is running a full set of Bitterblossom. A full set of Isolated Chapel is another thing altogether. That I would never do.
I don't personally play BB, so I use only a single Swamp as I would virtually never want to fetch a second B producer, but I could certainly see the need to fetch a second B producer if I had BB in the mix.
You're totally right about Isolated Chapel. Two of those should probably be just off color white fetches. Why would you need to fetch a second swamp? You only need one to cast BB. By the turn in which you might possibly begin casting two black spells in a single turn, you assuredly should have drawn a second black source. However, the second swamp in a list that runs 4 colorless mana producing lands is basically guaranteeing that you will never cast Spectral for three. This would be different if the person planned on running Fetid Heath and maybe I could hear an argument for the second swamp with Liliana, but even without the second swamp, the list already runs enough black mana sources to be able to consistently have double black by turn 3 for her. And even then you could always just fetch up a Godless Shrine, because you definitely don't want to draw the second Swamp given Spectral.
You're right. I just imagined Bitterblossom was BB - it clearly isn't. Perhaps I had a old thought in mind about Liliana of the Veil - which occasionally gets play in tokens. There's no reason to run two Swamps unless you've got BB casting costs. It's not essential then but it's worth considering. Sometimes one just wants to fetch basics.
It seems like this archetype is mostly solved and is quite powerful. I've been working on a departure from the 'best' version of the deck and am looking for feedback. I realize that at this point it may be sub-optimal but I'd like to see where it could go. Please indulge me...
The core interaction that spawned this idea was Sun Titan and Promise of Bunrei. Bunrei gives you 4 colourless flyers for 3 mana. Token decks are likely loosing guys all the time so triggering it is not difficult. It helps solves the sweeper problem and is also a card that taxes the opponent's decisions, making previous simple lines of play more complex and less rewarding. Sun Titan helps in the long-game and gives a diversity of threat to the deck as well as providing insane utility. Titan may be hard to cast so I've upped the Windbrisk Heights to 4.
I've increased the discard density as Tidehollow Sculler looks better when he's able to come back via Sun Titan. I've also included 2 Sword of Feast and Famine main-deck as a way to both pump, increase discard pressure and try and keep Vault of the Archangel activations a thing that's possible.
Plagued Rusalka could be any number of cards including Mortarpod or Fumespitter or even Kami of False Hope. The idea is to have a sac outlet with utlity. Rusalka helps to kill mana dork, Snapcasters, X/1 elves, Affinity dorks, etc.
The deck is begging for Liliana of the Veil. I don't own any so I haven't built with it.
So...that's the rough concept. There's lots of room to work with here and I wonder what unique and interesting possibilities are available inside this concept of Tokens + Sun Titan.
Oops. I can't tell you how many cards I've gotten excited over because I didn't read their text properly...
Well...not as strong but still a possibility. Without flying does Bunrei have a chance?
no it doesn't too much work to set up and the possibility of no pay- off, unlike Timley which takes much less effort to work with a better pay off in a lot of match-ups, also Promise is vulnerable to AD which makes it even worse.
I'm just starting out in Modern, and after testing tons of different decks on Cockatrice over the past few months, I've finally decided to buy into B/W Tokens. It's not too expensive, but more importantly, it's quite fun to play! Here's the list I'm planning to run:
Seems pretty standard, but a little bit of elaboration on my card choices:
Most lists seem to run 6 removal spells in the main, but I cut the 6th in favor of the 24th land. Perhaps I should cut the 2nd Zealous Persecution instead, and run a Dismember or Go For Threat as the 6th removal spell? What are your experiences with ZP - is it worth running the 2nd?
In my testing so far I've found that Sorin is the best Walker, followed by 4-mana Elspeth. I'm running the split mainly to avoid situations where I'm stuck with a Sorin in hand and one on the battlefield, but they both also have their strengths and weaknesses. Sorin can really swing a game with his lifelink, but he's a little redundant with Vault and his Vampires don't synergize with my 1 Honor of the Pure. Meanwhile, Elspeth (who seems to have fallen in popularity, at least from what I see in the lists posted in this thread) synergizes better with my other cards and is better on a empty board. Thoughts on the split?
Most lists seem to run 23 lands, but Cifka and Juza actually ran 25 at PTFRF! I'm right in the middle at 24, which I like because I run a few cards to combat flood, mainly the 4 Windbrisk Heights and 2 Secure the Wastes. The 24th land is currently the 3rd plains - what's the consensus on how many colorless lands the deck can afford to run? I'm thinking I could run a 2nd Vault or even a Foundry of the Consuls here instead.
Still on the subject of lands, I don't see many people running Fetid Heath, but it's a 2-of in most of the old lists by DeTora and Wescoe. Is there any particular reason for that? It seems great for casting a t3 Spectral.
I'm not too sure about the local meta yet so I've just copied Juza's PT sideboard, but I like the idea of boarding in Hero after my opponents board out spot removal. Are there any other cards I should consider for decks that have gained prominence since PTFRF? Maybe something to deal with the Company decks, but I'm not sure.
I don't love the second ZP and would run Dismember instead, if those are the choices.
The pw split seems fine, but I think you'll find Sorins sitting in your hand less often than you expect. Essentially, you can cash him in quicker to make vampires if you have a second one. Or be more aggressive and not block to protect him if you have the second. Games in which I lose with two Sorins in hand are not because of the two Sorins, but because of mana issues. Elspeth, KE plays out more often like a slower BB without Heros or Brimaz to jump. I would almost be more partial to Elspeth Tirel for her ultimate, which happens the second turn she comes down, or you could even maybe test Sun's Champion if you have those laying around before KE. I originally ran both Elspeths, Liliana, and both Sorins before cutting down to just Sorin, but Knight Errant was the second walker I cut after Sorin Lord of Innistrad.
I ran 24 lands for quite a long time. I think you can easily run two Vaults and honestly would probably cut the third Isolated Chapel. The card can be awkward in opening hands. And Fetid Heath is great. It is often just a little unnecessary for most folks' budget. I appreciate how Fetid Heath enables me to grab turn 1 Swamp for Thoughtseize more often and still be able to cast Spectral down the road.
Sideboard looks fine. There aren't great options for the bad matchups to be honest. All too often bad matchups require aggressive sideboarding and so it will help to know the meta you are entering into.
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Good points all, thanks. I'm not sure if you run Honor of the Pure - if so, what are your thoughts on it? Is it worth running as a 5th Intangible Virtue, or no? It seems awkward with Vampire tokens if you go the 3 Sorin route, but at the same time it's only a one-of and it synergizes with all of your other dudes, so it's not that big of a deal I guess.
As for lands, I'm thinking Foundry might be better than a 2nd Vault, especially if I decide to go with 3 Sorins... The lifelink will probably be really redundant at that point, while being able to get a couple of tokens in a grindy game might actually win it for me. I haven't actually tried it yet, however. Good point about the Isolated Chapel.
Which fetches do you run? I don't have Marsh Flats, and looks like they're not coming out in BFZ so it's allied fetches for me. Not sure if I should go Heath/Strand or Strand/Delta... It seems that the swamp is there to fetch in case you suspect blood moon and to save life vs. Burn, so I think I'd like a couple fetches that can grab Swamp, but you definitely want to fetch for Plains more often. Currently going 4 Strand/3 Delta.
Also, thoughts on Murderous Cut? I like to have at least 1 Delve spell in the 75, especially with discard and most of our threats being tokens, but it seems that most people prefer Dismember.
I cut Honor of the Pure for Bitterblossom. Since you're not running BB, Honor is fine. Since these vampires will be 2/2s from the start, just imagine that when you have an Honor in play, Sorin makes 1/1 flying tokens. I'd still play that card. Since you only have one Honor, the vampires will keep pace with your other 1/1s. Not sure if that makes sense, but that is how I think about running them together.
I like double Vault. The deathtouch comes up in creature matches and the lifelink is great against burn, but maybe you want two 1/1s more. Isolated Chapel looks great on paper, but between Vault, Heath, and Windbrisk, they get awkward.
I don't have Marsh Flats online and I always play with white fetches, Flooded Strand and Windswept Heath. The amount of times, which you fetch up basic swamp are incredibly rare.
I love Murderous Cut. When I started playing the deck, a lot of lists ran 2 Dismember and I immediately split the difference with a Cut and a Dismember.
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The amount of times, which you fetch up basic swamp are incredibly rare.
are they? as i see most of the decklists here run 7 discard spells. that means 15 life on T1 quite often... i run just 4 of them with 5th in the sideboard, and still, i've added second Heath in order to fetch T1 for basic swamp if i have a discard spell and a filterland in my opening hand.
Yeah, you don't fetch turn 1 swamp unless you have boarded out some number of Spectral or you have a Fetid Heath in hand. It's too important to cast Spectral on three unless you have other plays. I actually played Gerry Thompson online a few weeks ago and just so happened that he was recording the match. After the fact, I looked it up and watched the archived video. He actually criticized my turn one Swamp, but he was playing Affinity, and I had a turn two Virtue, into turn three Souls, and turn four flashback and another Virtue. Like, even if I had Spectral, I wasn't gonna cast it on turn three for reasons of curving out. It really depends, but also I often don't turn one discard unless I'm trying to jam a turn two Bitterblossom and want to protect it from a Spell Snare and that usually only requires taking two or three with IOK. More often, I'll fetch a Shrine tapped, and turn two play Windbrisk Heights and a discard spell. Most fetches later in the game are for Plains, unless you're playing against a deck with Paths, just to make Spectral its most efficient.
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In the mainboard my main creatures are Mirran Crusader and Hero of Bladhold.
I like Mirran crusader because it dodges black removal and blocks green stuff but he needs to come out for firewalkers against burn. I like the concept of having one solid creature that has relavant protection, but I don't really have a game plan against path to exile except to hope I have a discard spell. I have been considering taking out the 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender from the side board to add 2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa who can replace hero of bladehold if I come against any r/w control decks. My understanding is that Burrenton Forge-Tender is an anti burn card along with a way to cancel an anger of the gods so I'm just curious to see if anyone has tried Blood Baron or has anything to say about how important Burrenton Forge-Tender actually is.
Thanks for your thoughts, Trapped and Corwin. Do you really think Foundry is that bad? It seems like it would really shine in the grindier matchups. Have either of you tried Secure the Wastes? It's been kind of meh for me so far, but I don't have that many reps in with the deck yet. I'm thinking that 2x Reinforcements in the main might be better, which frees up some sideboard space. Without Wastes I could likely go back down to 23 land as well and run a 2nd ZP as well as a 6th removal spell.
Corwin, you say that you only run 4 hand disruption spells. Mind sharing your list? The least I've seen is 6, I'm curious to see what you're running in their place.
Vault is much better than foundry, and you don't want to run very many colorless lands due to how important it is to get WWW for spectral procession in this deck. And yeah most lists run 6 - 8 discard effects between IOK and Seize. I also have found Secure the Wastes underwhelming for the most part, though from time to time it has been a blow out. I like Timley's main much more with Bitterblossom version, but have run it main without, but yeah it should always be in the 75 somewhere.
The amount of times, which you fetch up basic swamp are incredibly rare.
are they? as i see most of the decklists here run 7 discard spells. that means 15 life on T1 quite often... i run just 4 of them with 5th in the sideboard, and still, i've added second Heath in order to fetch T1 for basic swamp if i have a discard spell and a filterland in my opening hand.
I fetch the Swamp fairly often, probably most of the occasions when I fetch B. If I can get away with fetching on my opponent's turn for a tapped Godless Shrine, I'll do that, but I rarely fetch a Shrine and put it into play untapped. It's fine in some match-ups. It's even fine to play Thoughtseize off of it turn one in some match-ups, but it's not generally a good play.
I don't sweat not having WWW on turn three as long as I have something to play.
4 marsh flats
4 godless shrine
2 fetid heath
2 isolated chapel
4 windbrisk heights
2 vault of the archangel
1 Tectonic Edge
4 plains
1 swamp
4 bitterblossom
4 intangible virtue
3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
3 path to exile
2 dismember
1 murderous cut
4 lingering souls
4 spectral procession
2 timely reinforcements
2 raise the alarm
1 zealous persecution
2 sorin, solemn visitor
1 elspeth, knight errant
I'll be testing this revised, list. hopefully it does better, moved the nevermores to the SB again.
hmmm...I play 4 BB cause it draws the discards my opponents have away from my other spells. I know, I have a weird playgroup. lol
Looking for updates from Martin Juza's excellent guide from PT FRF.
Mostly for approaching these matchups:
I think Grixis Control is actually a very good matchup for us, same with Jund.
How about Elves and Merfolk?
Pretty sure propaganda is not legal in modern, and even if it was there are better answers than nevermore. Also 3 colorless sources is too many especially when running chapels and heights. Spectral procession is something you want to almost always be able to pay 3 for only, I'd personally drop Elspeth as well and at least 1 dismember to get up to 4 raise the alarm.
I'm thinking of getting a 3rd sorin in there and cutting one more chapel or vault. I'm also thinking of just maindeck 1 dismember for a sac removal (geth's verdict?) not yet sure, have to test with proxies before I get everything.
It depends, of course, on the sideboard you plan on using. Against Jund, I bring in two Rest in Peace to turn off Goyf and Command, and more removal in the form of Go for the Throat and Lilianas. Against Grixis control, I pretty much do the same thing. Elves and Merfolk are awful matchups and so you have to decide how you want to attack them. I bring in Go for the Throat and an Hour of Reckoning, if I have it in my board although Engineered Explosives might be better, but I haven't tested it. Zealous Persecution is better against Elves than Merfolk, but it can do some work against Merfolk early or if you get the chance to block. I bring in a Disenchant for Spreading Seas against Merfolk in order to be able to block, which is how we can leverage all of our dorks. I'm almost tempted to bring in Surgical Extraction for Ezuri against Elves. I've lost games in which I have killed five Ezuris, two of which got Pathed, and the other one was recurred by Eternal Witness after I had Murderous Cut and Dismembered him.
3 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Fetid Heath
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Path to Exile
4 Raise the Alarm
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
3 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements
3 Bitterblossom
1 Murderous Cut
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Auriok Champion
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Hour of Reckoning
1 Disenchant
1 Go for the Throat
1 Duress
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Dismember
Grixis Control
+1 Dismember, +1 Go for the Throat, +2 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Rest in Peace, -1 Bitterblossom, -2 Timely Reinforcements, -1 Raise the Alarm, -1 Zealous Persecution, -1 Raise the Alarm
Jund
+1 Dismember, +1 Go for the Throat, +2 Liliana of the Veil, +2 Rest in Peace, -2 Timely Reinforcements, -1 Zealous Persecution, -2 Inquisition of Kozilek, -1 Thoughtseize
Elves
+1 Hour of Reckoning, +1 Dismember, +1 Go for the Throat, -3 Bitterblossom
Merfolk
+1 Hour of Reckoning, +1 Dismember, +1 Go for the Throat, +2 Liliana (on the play), -2 Timely Reinforcements, -1 Bitterblossom, -2 Bitterblossom (on the play)
You're right. I just imagined Bitterblossom was BB - it clearly isn't. Perhaps I had a old thought in mind about Liliana of the Veil - which occasionally gets play in tokens. There's no reason to run two Swamps unless you've got BB casting costs. It's not essential then but it's worth considering. Sometimes one just wants to fetch basics.
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Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
The core interaction that spawned this idea was Sun Titan and Promise of Bunrei. Bunrei gives you 4 colourless flyers for 3 mana. Token decks are likely loosing guys all the time so triggering it is not difficult. It helps solves the sweeper problem and is also a card that taxes the opponent's decisions, making previous simple lines of play more complex and less rewarding. Sun Titan helps in the long-game and gives a diversity of threat to the deck as well as providing insane utility. Titan may be hard to cast so I've upped the Windbrisk Heights to 4.
I've increased the discard density as Tidehollow Sculler looks better when he's able to come back via Sun Titan. I've also included 2 Sword of Feast and Famine main-deck as a way to both pump, increase discard pressure and try and keep Vault of the Archangel activations a thing that's possible.
Plagued Rusalka could be any number of cards including Mortarpod or Fumespitter or even Kami of False Hope. The idea is to have a sac outlet with utlity. Rusalka helps to kill mana dork, Snapcasters, X/1 elves, Affinity dorks, etc.
The deck is begging for Liliana of the Veil. I don't own any so I haven't built with it.
So...that's the rough concept. There's lots of room to work with here and I wonder what unique and interesting possibilities are available inside this concept of Tokens + Sun Titan.
4 Spectral Procession
3 Lingering Souls
4 Promise of Bunrei
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Auriok Champion
3 Plagued Rusalka
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
2 Vault of the Archangel
4 Marsh Flats
4 Windbrisk Heights
2 Windswept Heath
4 Godless Shrine
2 Isolated Chapel
3 Plains
1 Swamp
I do like the creativity in your choices and trying to change things up though!
Well...not as strong but still a possibility. Without flying does Bunrei have a chance?
no it doesn't too much work to set up and the possibility of no pay- off, unlike Timley which takes much less effort to work with a better pay off in a lot of match-ups, also Promise is vulnerable to AD which makes it even worse.
I'm just starting out in Modern, and after testing tons of different decks on Cockatrice over the past few months, I've finally decided to buy into B/W Tokens. It's not too expensive, but more importantly, it's quite fun to play! Here's the list I'm planning to run:
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Spectral Procession
4 Lingering Souls
2 Secure the Wastes
Disruption
4 Path to Exile
3 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Murderous Cut
Anthems
4 Intangible Virtue
1 Honor of the Pure
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lands
4 Windbrisk Heights
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Godless Shrine
3 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
3 Isolated Chapel
1 Fetid Heath
3 Polluted Delta
3 Duress
3 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Hero of Bladehold
1 Dismember
Seems pretty standard, but a little bit of elaboration on my card choices:
Thanks in advance for any comments/criticism!
The pw split seems fine, but I think you'll find Sorins sitting in your hand less often than you expect. Essentially, you can cash him in quicker to make vampires if you have a second one. Or be more aggressive and not block to protect him if you have the second. Games in which I lose with two Sorins in hand are not because of the two Sorins, but because of mana issues. Elspeth, KE plays out more often like a slower BB without Heros or Brimaz to jump. I would almost be more partial to Elspeth Tirel for her ultimate, which happens the second turn she comes down, or you could even maybe test Sun's Champion if you have those laying around before KE. I originally ran both Elspeths, Liliana, and both Sorins before cutting down to just Sorin, but Knight Errant was the second walker I cut after Sorin Lord of Innistrad.
I ran 24 lands for quite a long time. I think you can easily run two Vaults and honestly would probably cut the third Isolated Chapel. The card can be awkward in opening hands. And Fetid Heath is great. It is often just a little unnecessary for most folks' budget. I appreciate how Fetid Heath enables me to grab turn 1 Swamp for Thoughtseize more often and still be able to cast Spectral down the road.
Sideboard looks fine. There aren't great options for the bad matchups to be honest. All too often bad matchups require aggressive sideboarding and so it will help to know the meta you are entering into.
As for lands, I'm thinking Foundry might be better than a 2nd Vault, especially if I decide to go with 3 Sorins... The lifelink will probably be really redundant at that point, while being able to get a couple of tokens in a grindy game might actually win it for me. I haven't actually tried it yet, however. Good point about the Isolated Chapel.
Which fetches do you run? I don't have Marsh Flats, and looks like they're not coming out in BFZ so it's allied fetches for me. Not sure if I should go Heath/Strand or Strand/Delta... It seems that the swamp is there to fetch in case you suspect blood moon and to save life vs. Burn, so I think I'd like a couple fetches that can grab Swamp, but you definitely want to fetch for Plains more often. Currently going 4 Strand/3 Delta.
Also, thoughts on Murderous Cut? I like to have at least 1 Delve spell in the 75, especially with discard and most of our threats being tokens, but it seems that most people prefer Dismember.
I like double Vault. The deathtouch comes up in creature matches and the lifelink is great against burn, but maybe you want two 1/1s more. Isolated Chapel looks great on paper, but between Vault, Heath, and Windbrisk, they get awkward.
I don't have Marsh Flats online and I always play with white fetches, Flooded Strand and Windswept Heath. The amount of times, which you fetch up basic swamp are incredibly rare.
I love Murderous Cut. When I started playing the deck, a lot of lists ran 2 Dismember and I immediately split the difference with a Cut and a Dismember.
Yeah, you don't fetch turn 1 swamp unless you have boarded out some number of Spectral or you have a Fetid Heath in hand. It's too important to cast Spectral on three unless you have other plays. I actually played Gerry Thompson online a few weeks ago and just so happened that he was recording the match. After the fact, I looked it up and watched the archived video. He actually criticized my turn one Swamp, but he was playing Affinity, and I had a turn two Virtue, into turn three Souls, and turn four flashback and another Virtue. Like, even if I had Spectral, I wasn't gonna cast it on turn three for reasons of curving out. It really depends, but also I often don't turn one discard unless I'm trying to jam a turn two Bitterblossom and want to protect it from a Spell Snare and that usually only requires taking two or three with IOK. More often, I'll fetch a Shrine tapped, and turn two play Windbrisk Heights and a discard spell. Most fetches later in the game are for Plains, unless you're playing against a deck with Paths, just to make Spectral its most efficient.
In the mainboard my main creatures are Mirran Crusader and Hero of Bladhold.
I like Mirran crusader because it dodges black removal and blocks green stuff but he needs to come out for firewalkers against burn. I like the concept of having one solid creature that has relavant protection, but I don't really have a game plan against path to exile except to hope I have a discard spell. I have been considering taking out the 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender from the side board to add 2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa who can replace hero of bladehold if I come against any r/w control decks. My understanding is that Burrenton Forge-Tender is an anti burn card along with a way to cancel an anger of the gods so I'm just curious to see if anyone has tried Blood Baron or has anything to say about how important Burrenton Forge-Tender actually is.
Corwin, you say that you only run 4 hand disruption spells. Mind sharing your list? The least I've seen is 6, I'm curious to see what you're running in their place.
I fetch the Swamp fairly often, probably most of the occasions when I fetch B. If I can get away with fetching on my opponent's turn for a tapped Godless Shrine, I'll do that, but I rarely fetch a Shrine and put it into play untapped. It's fine in some match-ups. It's even fine to play Thoughtseize off of it turn one in some match-ups, but it's not generally a good play.
I don't sweat not having WWW on turn three as long as I have something to play.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn