Hi, just looking around. Seems like every archetype is afraid of hallowed moonlight lol.
CoCo elves (which i play) seems to smoke this deck every time. You guys might want to do something about that. This deck feels kinda slow.
Hi, just looking around. Seems like every archetype is afraid of hallowed moonlight lol.
CoCo elves (which i play) seems to smoke this deck every time. You guys might want to do something about that. This deck feels kinda slow.
From what I've noticed BW Tokens in general is a slow deck. If you aren't casting creatures (i.e., token-producing spells) until Turn 3, that means you aren't even attacking until Turn 4. And this is a format that has multiple decks that can win consistently on Turn 3/4/5. The "pro" to playing BW Tokens is the ability to have quasi-card advantage in a format that doesn't have CA. Example: Lingering Souls producing up to 4 creatures for 1 card; Spectral Procession producing 3 creatures for the price of 1 card. The problem I've encountered is that the creatures themselves are not particularly impactful while your opponent is laying down bombs/major threats.
CoCo just seems like a bad MU, which is unfortunate given that it is a rapidly ascending deck in the format atm. I playtested against my friend's CoCo deck and got steamrolled pretty hard. One of the games was especially brutal when he played Chord of Calling into a Orzhov Pontiff and wiped my board on back to back turns.
In order to be successful, I feel like the deck needs to take 1 of 2 paths: (1) get out in front of your opponent via mass discard (7-8 mainboard discard, not 5-6 like older iterations of BW Tokens) and completely strip their hand for a solid 2 turns before winning the CA war, or (2) play a reactionary version of Tokens loaded up with instants for EOT shenanigans (Raise the Alarm, Midnight Haunting) into utility (Windbrisk Heights, Sorin, Solemn Visitor) the following main phase. While this doesn't sound particularly revolutionary in thinking, I do think there are some nuances that aren't currently being touted mainstream: using Midnight Haunting over Spectral Procession or Zealous Persecution over Intangible Virtue (or just less copies of anthems). Playing mainphase threats in Modern just doesn't have the same impact that it used to in my eyes. /shrug
Yeah, the problem though is that building a deck around card advantage requires that you get rid of your opponent's cards, like 1-for-1ing them, but currently the deck doesn't have enough of that. You can have all the card advantage you want but if you get aggrod out by turn 4 it's not gonna help much. I feel like a lot of games all this deck does is play a discard spell, then an anthem and then get a few 2/2 or so tokens by T3 which can't attack until T4.
Yeah, the problem though is that building a deck around card advantage requires that you get rid of your opponent's cards, like 1-for-1ing them, but currently the deck doesn't have enough of that. You can have all the card advantage you want but if you get aggrod out by turn 4 it's not gonna help much. I feel like a lot of games all this deck does is play a discard spell, then an anthem and then get a few 2/2 or so tokens by T3 which can't attack until T4.
Agreed. That's why I want to playtest a more reactive Esper version that has discard and counters and then a bunch of Instant-speed token generators so you can pick and choose your battles accordingly. Mainphase token generators make me sad (Lingering Souls notwithstanding as that card is essential to any build given its utility/flexibility/quasi-CA).
Currently I'm playing a set of thoughtseize, a set of inquisition, and 2 tidehollow sculler, so I've definitely taken that path, and I have to say, it's been treating me well. The disruption helps the unfair matchups a LOT. When I was packing 4 IoK and 2 TS and 0 Scullers, I just lost to Amulet every time, but I can for sure say the MU is 50/50 now. This is also due to me despising all versions of tron so I run 2 maindeck ghost quarters to deal with them, which conveniently helps the amulet MU quite a bit, especially when they have their singleton forest on the battlefield. Double strip mine seems pretty good. Even with all of this, I've upped my anthem count recently, 2 Sorin, 1 ZP, 4 virtues, and 2 honors. This also helps the matchups where you have to try to race, like amulet, GR valakut trap, any version of griselbrand, zoo, and merfolk. Any of y'all have critiques on my list:
4 Intangible virtue
2 honor of the pure
2 Sorin, solemn visitor
1 Zealous persecution
4 spectral procession
4 lingering souls
1 secure the wastes
2 hero of bladehold
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 tidehollow sculler
Sideboard (I play mostly in a known meta, so I have a few unconventional choices):
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 timely reinforcements
3 stony silence (Like I said, I hate tron)
1 disfigure
1 relic of progenitus
2 rule of law
2 kor firewalker
1 celestial purge
1 deathmark
Why not play myth realized as the 1-drop in B/W tokens. With all the non-creature spells we are playing, the counters can add up quickly.
Plus it dodges mass removal, as these are mostly sorceries played on opponents turn. We have 6 T1 spells (discard), but wouldn't it be nice to have another 1 drop that synergies with the deck.
The best part is you don't even have to do anything once it's in play. Just cast it T1 and play the normal B/W token game (don't forget to add the counters).
By turn 5/6 you can have a couple of tokens attacking alongside a 7/7 beast. How you like them apples!!
Having tested it, it never won me games that I wasn't already winning against and often the deck strands removal in opponents' hands, forcing them to Path a spirit token or Terminate a Faerie token. When playing a Myth on turn one, your opponent just never ends up casting those removal spells and so you have an enchantment that you can't activate without losing it. I've lost games where I have had a 26/26 or a 24/23 lifelink myth.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
Interesting. 4 Windbrisk Heights with only 21 lands? I play 23 lands and I am going to go down to 3.
I am still not keen on Bitterblossom; 1 life a turn just adds up too fast if you aren't the aggressor. I personally prefer some number of Honor of the Pure since our token makers are all white tokens (with the exception of Sorin tokens).
Interesting. 4 Windbrisk Heights with only 21 lands? I play 23 lands and I am going to go down to 3.
I am still not keen on Bitterblossom; 1 life a turn just adds up too fast if you aren't the aggressor. I personally prefer some number of Honor of the Pure since our token makers are all white tokens (with the exception of Sorin tokens).
That's why you have Sorin, Timely, and Vault to gain life back. I don't know about that list. I have no idea how it can run on that few of land, unless it is content with being on two lands for a good part of most games.
Interesting. 4 Windbrisk Heights with only 21 lands? I play 23 lands and I am going to go down to 3.
I am still not keen on Bitterblossom; 1 life a turn just adds up too fast if you aren't the aggressor. I personally prefer some number of Honor of the Pure since our token makers are all white tokens (with the exception of Sorin tokens).
I've been having success with 2 Bitterblossom and 2 Honor. And yes, Sorin gives you back all spent life the turn he comes into play.
Anybody have experience with Ghostly Prison in the board? Thinking about it against Twin and other aggro decks. Bringing it in against burn seems bad, but otherwise stuff like Abzan aggro or merfolk it might be solid against. Seems bad against Elves and any deck with Abrupt Decay.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
I have been splashing green now for a while , toggling between 3-4 abrupt decays and 1 gavony township, and all I can say is that it has been very positive and something I think people should consider.
Yes, BB is slow. And at most I usually put 3 on the field.... But if you get it opening hand... Man. The board presence is stupid. One card sets you up +1 every turn for the rest of the time it's out. No other card in our deck can do that. NONE. Yes it's not groundbreaking or game shattering. What it does though, is make your opponent either A: Destroy the BB, or B: Continuously pound his creatures in as fast and as hard as he can so we can't get anything else going. If all I can do is chump block 4-5 turns with my tokens from BB I'll take it. Why? Because it's better than the creatures dmg hitting me.
But Bitterblossom will always be in my decks. When people think about Lingering Souls, what do they think about? "How many uses can I get out of this..."
8/10 times I'd rather an Abrupt Decay be aimed at my BB than my Intangible Virtue. Scapegoats.
I have been playing 3 x BB, have you tried 4 or is 3 a good number to stick with?
I prefer 3. The fourth resulted in me killing myself several times in just a few games. Certain metas might warrant it, but it really narrows your decision trees to have two in your opening hands. Three guarantees that you see one each game and often have it, but not always, in your opening hand.
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One of these day I have to get myself organizized.
You'll find at least two of those in a match almost guaranteed. And if you don't, then most likely you won't need them. I run 3 Sorin 3.0, 2 Timely Reinforcement, and 1 Vault. I always see them in my games.
Just went 2-2 in a modern tourney, not my best work but I'll give a run down anyways. I was playing BW tokens.
Round 1: UW Control
This guy seems as though he played standard in RTR THS or RTR INN and was playing UW control from that era except with colonnades.
The thing to note here is that his deck ran multiple Jace architect of thoughts, Detention Spheres, and Supreme Verdicts. These cards are pretty solid against tokens as it turns out.
Game 1:
I stumbled a bit early but got some damage in and had him down to 6 or so and he end steps a rev for 6. He untaps with a wrath and an Aetherling with 2 mana open. I didn't have 3 removal spells in my hand so I just scooped to the Aetherling.
Game 2:
I went Intangible Virtue into Spectral Procession and he just didn't have a verdict. Gg dude, Gg
Game 3: he had a pretty solid opener with a few lands and some Detention Spheres, a rev and verdict. I did manage to draw an Intangible Virtue but when i dropped my spirits he was ready with a Detention Sphere. And anther for the next batch. And another. That was mildly annoying, but hey what can you do. He ended up revving for 8 on my end step and I just conceded to that.
1-2 0-1
Round 2: BW tokens.
I've only played the mirror once before, so I didn't have a whole lot of practice on my side.
Game 1: he Thoughtseizes me and starts cracking up, tells me this game is about to be dumb. I Thoughtseize him and see why. If you've never played the tokens mirror, it is either really one sided or board stalls all day long. This game was over pretty quick because he drew 3 anthems and no token generators.
Game 2: this one took a solid twenty minutes. We both had like 8 tokens with anthems out so we wouldn't get blown out by Zealous Persecution. He had Bitterblossom, which is entirely absent in my 75 because I don't like it that much, also I can't afford them lol. He ended up grinning me out, granted he was at like 3 life, so my plan was to stall until Bitterblossom killed him, I did manage to draw Timely Reinforcements but he drew Intangible Virtue and hit me exactly dead.
Game 3: he was pretty low on lands and I ended up getting blown out my Zealous Persecution but Lingering Souls off the top saved my ass and I stalled until Bitterblossom killed him. Gg
2-1 1-1
Round 3: Jund
Game 1: he kept a hand of 2 bolts, olivia, and lands. I killed olivia and he realized bolt is one of the worst cards in his deck pretty quickly. I had a virtue and he just didn't have the Abrupt Decay. For it and I just kept killing his stuff and doing damage in increments of 4-6 until he was dead.
Game 2: I had virtue into procession and I kinda checked out.. Woops. Turns out Jund can come back from that, especially if the tokens pilot is being retarded. He landed Tasigur and tarmo and managed to beat me down with those two and a Raging Ravine
Game 3: I went virtue into procession into sorin and actually focused on the game state this time and Jund just couldn't beat that. Gg
2-1 2-1
Round 4: Grixis delver.
Warning: this match was retarded.
Game 1 he went delver blind flip attack for 3, delver, Serum Visions so it flips next turn and wreck you really fast. Gg I guess?
Game 2 he mulliganed to 5 and I wrecked him.
Game 3 he went delver, pyro, angler and I was overwhelmed by elementals and a zombie fish.
1-2 2-2.
Overall not bad, my first time at the shop and everyone was really nice. I'll be going back there when I can and hopefully I'll have a better record. I'll post these the day after I go whenever I do.
Beat Affinity 2-0, Zoo 2-0 and Junk 2-0.
Lost to Jund 2-1 and Grixis Twin 2-0.
Tidehollow underperformed all night and is getting relaced by 2 Bitterblossom and a Brimaz, King of Oreskos. May also lose a Plains for one more Zealous Persecution.
May also lose the Honor of the Pure for 2 more mainboard removal (1 Murderous Cut and 1 Dismember maybe).
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Latina, Oedipus, loquituri id?
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CoCo elves (which i play) seems to smoke this deck every time. You guys might want to do something about that. This deck feels kinda slow.
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
From what I've noticed BW Tokens in general is a slow deck. If you aren't casting creatures (i.e., token-producing spells) until Turn 3, that means you aren't even attacking until Turn 4. And this is a format that has multiple decks that can win consistently on Turn 3/4/5. The "pro" to playing BW Tokens is the ability to have quasi-card advantage in a format that doesn't have CA. Example: Lingering Souls producing up to 4 creatures for 1 card; Spectral Procession producing 3 creatures for the price of 1 card. The problem I've encountered is that the creatures themselves are not particularly impactful while your opponent is laying down bombs/major threats.
CoCo just seems like a bad MU, which is unfortunate given that it is a rapidly ascending deck in the format atm. I playtested against my friend's CoCo deck and got steamrolled pretty hard. One of the games was especially brutal when he played Chord of Calling into a Orzhov Pontiff and wiped my board on back to back turns.
In order to be successful, I feel like the deck needs to take 1 of 2 paths: (1) get out in front of your opponent via mass discard (7-8 mainboard discard, not 5-6 like older iterations of BW Tokens) and completely strip their hand for a solid 2 turns before winning the CA war, or (2) play a reactionary version of Tokens loaded up with instants for EOT shenanigans (Raise the Alarm, Midnight Haunting) into utility (Windbrisk Heights, Sorin, Solemn Visitor) the following main phase. While this doesn't sound particularly revolutionary in thinking, I do think there are some nuances that aren't currently being touted mainstream: using Midnight Haunting over Spectral Procession or Zealous Persecution over Intangible Virtue (or just less copies of anthems). Playing mainphase threats in Modern just doesn't have the same impact that it used to in my eyes. /shrug
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
Agreed. That's why I want to playtest a more reactive Esper version that has discard and counters and then a bunch of Instant-speed token generators so you can pick and choose your battles accordingly. Mainphase token generators make me sad (Lingering Souls notwithstanding as that card is essential to any build given its utility/flexibility/quasi-CA).
4 Intangible virtue
2 honor of the pure
2 Sorin, solemn visitor
1 Zealous persecution
4 spectral procession
4 lingering souls
1 secure the wastes
2 hero of bladehold
4 thoughtseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 tidehollow sculler
4 path to exile
2 murderous cut
4 marsh flats
4 windswept heath
4 godless shrine
3 isolated chapel
2 windbrisk heights
3 plains
1 swamp
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 ghost quarter
Sideboard (I play mostly in a known meta, so I have a few unconventional choices):
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 timely reinforcements
3 stony silence (Like I said, I hate tron)
1 disfigure
1 relic of progenitus
2 rule of law
2 kor firewalker
1 celestial purge
1 deathmark
Having tested it, it never won me games that I wasn't already winning against and often the deck strands removal in opponents' hands, forcing them to Path a spirit token or Terminate a Faerie token. When playing a Myth on turn one, your opponent just never ends up casting those removal spells and so you have an enchantment that you can't activate without losing it. I've lost games where I have had a 26/26 or a 24/23 lifelink myth.
I feel in certain situations it'd be really good. Others it doesn't change how our matchups go.
Interesting. 4 Windbrisk Heights with only 21 lands? I play 23 lands and I am going to go down to 3.
I am still not keen on Bitterblossom; 1 life a turn just adds up too fast if you aren't the aggressor. I personally prefer some number of Honor of the Pure since our token makers are all white tokens (with the exception of Sorin tokens).
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
That's why you have Sorin, Timely, and Vault to gain life back. I don't know about that list. I have no idea how it can run on that few of land, unless it is content with being on two lands for a good part of most games.
I've been having success with 2 Bitterblossom and 2 Honor. And yes, Sorin gives you back all spent life the turn he comes into play.
The options I AM considering is: switching out Sorcery Speed for Instant. Spectral Procession taken out for Midnight Haunting and finding room for a playset of Raise the Alarm.
But Bitterblossom will always be in my decks. When people think about Lingering Souls, what do they think about? "How many uses can I get out of this..."
8/10 times I'd rather an Abrupt Decay be aimed at my BB than my Intangible Virtue. Scapegoats.
I prefer 3. The fourth resulted in me killing myself several times in just a few games. Certain metas might warrant it, but it really narrows your decision trees to have two in your opening hands. Three guarantees that you see one each game and often have it, but not always, in your opening hand.
Round 1: UW Control
This guy seems as though he played standard in RTR THS or RTR INN and was playing UW control from that era except with colonnades.
The thing to note here is that his deck ran multiple Jace architect of thoughts, Detention Spheres, and Supreme Verdicts. These cards are pretty solid against tokens as it turns out.
Game 1:
I stumbled a bit early but got some damage in and had him down to 6 or so and he end steps a rev for 6. He untaps with a wrath and an Aetherling with 2 mana open. I didn't have 3 removal spells in my hand so I just scooped to the Aetherling.
Game 2:
I went Intangible Virtue into Spectral Procession and he just didn't have a verdict. Gg dude, Gg
Game 3: he had a pretty solid opener with a few lands and some Detention Spheres, a rev and verdict. I did manage to draw an Intangible Virtue but when i dropped my spirits he was ready with a Detention Sphere. And anther for the next batch. And another. That was mildly annoying, but hey what can you do. He ended up revving for 8 on my end step and I just conceded to that.
1-2 0-1
Round 2: BW tokens.
I've only played the mirror once before, so I didn't have a whole lot of practice on my side.
Game 1: he Thoughtseizes me and starts cracking up, tells me this game is about to be dumb. I Thoughtseize him and see why. If you've never played the tokens mirror, it is either really one sided or board stalls all day long. This game was over pretty quick because he drew 3 anthems and no token generators.
Game 2: this one took a solid twenty minutes. We both had like 8 tokens with anthems out so we wouldn't get blown out by Zealous Persecution. He had Bitterblossom, which is entirely absent in my 75 because I don't like it that much, also I can't afford them lol. He ended up grinning me out, granted he was at like 3 life, so my plan was to stall until Bitterblossom killed him, I did manage to draw Timely Reinforcements but he drew Intangible Virtue and hit me exactly dead.
Game 3: he was pretty low on lands and I ended up getting blown out my Zealous Persecution but Lingering Souls off the top saved my ass and I stalled until Bitterblossom killed him. Gg
2-1 1-1
Round 3: Jund
Game 1: he kept a hand of 2 bolts, olivia, and lands. I killed olivia and he realized bolt is one of the worst cards in his deck pretty quickly. I had a virtue and he just didn't have the Abrupt Decay. For it and I just kept killing his stuff and doing damage in increments of 4-6 until he was dead.
Game 2: I had virtue into procession and I kinda checked out.. Woops. Turns out Jund can come back from that, especially if the tokens pilot is being retarded. He landed Tasigur and tarmo and managed to beat me down with those two and a Raging Ravine
Game 3: I went virtue into procession into sorin and actually focused on the game state this time and Jund just couldn't beat that. Gg
2-1 2-1
Round 4: Grixis delver.
Warning: this match was retarded.
Game 1 he went delver blind flip attack for 3, delver, Serum Visions so it flips next turn and wreck you really fast. Gg I guess?
Game 2 he mulliganed to 5 and I wrecked him.
Game 3 he went delver, pyro, angler and I was overwhelmed by elementals and a zombie fish.
1-2 2-2.
Overall not bad, my first time at the shop and everyone was really nice. I'll be going back there when I can and hopefully I'll have a better record. I'll post these the day after I go whenever I do.
Do you have a list?? I would be interested to know if you run bitterblossom/ extra lifegain to account for fetching/shocking yourself.
Seems like a worse version of Abzan. Cut Virtue for Goyfs, Spectral for Lili, and Timely for Scavenging Ooze.
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
5 Plains
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Path to Exile
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Honor of the Pure
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Disenchant
3 Kor Firewalker
3 Rest in Peace
4 Go for the Throat
2 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
Beat Affinity 2-0, Zoo 2-0 and Junk 2-0.
Lost to Jund 2-1 and Grixis Twin 2-0.
Tidehollow underperformed all night and is getting relaced by 2 Bitterblossom and a Brimaz, King of Oreskos. May also lose a Plains for one more Zealous Persecution.
May also lose the Honor of the Pure for 2 more mainboard removal (1 Murderous Cut and 1 Dismember maybe).