I've actually thought of using Angel's Grace. It would stop those decks on the turn they try to do it, and I can't see them recovering very easily. Unlike Splinter Twin - they could just do it again next turn.
RE: BW being competitive:
I have always believed that it has the capability to be competitive but can be hard to play sometimes/fall on its face when things don't work out properly. That being said, it will take the right kind of list, and the proper pilot to play the deck to success. Can it be done though? I think so. Will it? I don't think so. I don't think enough people give it enough credit to make people want to play/try it. The proof is that a few people have randomly posted on this thread saying things like "tried it. thought it'd be fun. it sucks" or "yea, BW tokens will never be good enough, but I heard a noob say it was fun so there's that" and crap like that. As long as people view the deck like that, no one will think it is good enough.
This is absolutely a rogue deck. No one creates a sideboard with our deck in mind. The truth is that we are a sort of midrange deck that requires a specific synergy before any cards are particularly strong.
First off, this game is black hole. It looks like I'm not quiting anytime soon. While I'm still pretty sad with the state of Modern, my main reason for stepping back was a lack of a decent playgroup. My MTG friends really weren't into it, until last week. A good friend of mine is a pro-tour hopeful, and has decided it's time to learn modern, so looks like I'll stick around for awhile. Anyway, my current deck:
Discussion: what do you think about BW tokens place in current meta?
It looks better then ever, top40 at pro tour (Juza 36th, 6 BW Tokens decks in day2, ), 38th place at GP Vancouver and Top8 at SCG Baltimore (over 700 players).
Tokens - playable at competitive level or better stay at FNM with this deck? Does it have chances to won bigger tournament?
The deck has been performing very well, and I do think tokens is viable competitively. The issue comes from the deck's fairness. We are not a unique/difficult to fight strategy (like infect or living end), we don't draw, we don't combo, we don't over abuse card synergy (Tron, Unburial Gifts). We are cheap though. If you roll without Bitterblossom or Liliana, you can build the deck for under $500. Thoughtseize, Sorin, and fetch lands are in standard and easy to get traded. Everything else is in the event deck. For an enthusiast like me, the deck is GREAT. From the view point of a very competitive player with a $1000+ dollar budget, why not just run twin, with more draw effects, an instant win combo, and a bolt+snap+bolt backup plan?
TL:DR - Tokens can beat anything out there, but not as consistently as the tier one crowd. If you like the playstyle, and don't want a $1000+ deck, it's a great option.
Side note: If we got something silly, like 1W "draw a card, get a 1/1 flying spirit", or a white BB that doesn't hurt you, this deck might push to tier one.
I've read in an article somewhere, that BW tokens is a very fair deck and in order to get it over the top, it has to have an unfair sideboard.
That being said, what do you think of my sideboard list?
I'm pretty sure I said that in the primer "Run the hattiest hate possible", lol. Anyway, my side, and explanations Rest in Peace Storm, Living End (which I think could see more play) Stony Silence Affinity, Tron Aven Mindcensor Amulet Bloom, Scapeshift (I like this one, because it's very rarely used) Torpor Orb Twin, random jank like Elves and Soul Sisters Disenchant Affinity, Boggles (I chose this over sundering growth because of blood moon) Leyline of Sanctity Burn
Keep in mind that sideboards are also mildly tempered by the main. I main 6 discard, and 8 removal, so I don't have thoughtseize effects in my sideboard.
I think angels grace is a cute trick. It's at least worth a shot, although I think you'd be better off with Runed Halo naming valakut, splinter twin, lightning bolt, grapeshot, etc. The split second trick is definitely something Runed Halo lacks.
I think Liliana of the Veil may edge her way in over the Torpor Orb. I currently have little to no game against boggles, and control shells have had good results recently, too. Liliana really shines in the control match.
This is what I have been running on MTGO lately in the competitive practice room, getting a feel for it before I start doing Dailys and stuff. This is what I am currently running with a fair amount of success.
I chose Brimaz because he can generate a lot of tokens quickly and has a big butt. I was running Auriok champion there initially but I haven't seen as many delver decks. Mirran Crusader is also a viable option I feel for ABzan match ups and stuff, so Brimaz does get sided out a lot after Game 1. Curious to see what anyone else things.
My sideboard, I feel, is pretty cut and Dry.
Auriok Champion-Burn/Delver/Red based aggro decks
Dismember-Abzan/Midrange Decks
Duress-Twin/Storm
Crusader-Abzan Green based decks
Rootborn Defense-Cause there is always that one control deck with a ton of board wipes plus populate!
Stony Silence-Tron/Affinity
Sundering Growth-Tron/Affinity/Populate!
Wrath of God- For aggro decks, I feel we have an easier time recovering since we get multiple creatures off one card and it doesn't hit our Anthems
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Decks
Modern BGR Jund RGB BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB BWGAbzan CompanyGWB
After testing the heck out of angel's grace i think it has to be cut from my board. Aside from the hilarity of using it after facing a bloom deck with hive mind all it usually does is maybe buy a turn which usually isn't enough. Replaced them with 2 disenchant and 1 more stony
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Standard: Gave it up
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
I was wondering if this deck could go more All in on Windbrisk Heights? Play a set of Congregation at Dawn and Explorer's Map to find Windbrisk Heights and ensure you put something awesome under the Windbrisk. My first thought was Craterhoof Behemoth because you can put him into play while you still haven't done damage and give your tokens +4/+4 or better that may often be enough to win. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite might be better from time to time. Iona might lock up some games and of course Emrakul is an option.
Congregation at Dawn requires two green and one White to work, that's fairly heavy green. Hard to splash it. So I'm not sure you could run black. One of the best things about tokens is Thoughtseize.
I was wondering if this deck could go more All in on Windbrisk Heights? Play a set of Congregation at Dawn and Explorer's Map to find Windbrisk Heights and ensure you put something awesome under the Windbrisk. My first thought was Craterhoof Behemoth because you can put him into play while you still haven't done damage and give your tokens +4/+4 or better that may often be enough to win. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite might be better from time to time. Iona might lock up some games and of course Emrakul is an option.
Congregation at Dawn requires two green and one White to work, that's fairly heavy green. Hard to splash it. So I'm not sure you could run black. One of the best things about tokens is Thoughtseize.
The deck you are looking for is called Smurfs I believe, it's a UW Polymorph based deck that uses the tokens spells to cheat in emrakul while also being able to do it off windbrisk heights while using the tokens aggro strategy as a back up. BW Tokens is a midrange deck, not a combo deck.
I was wondering if this deck could go more All in on Windbrisk Heights? Play a set of Congregation at Dawn and Explorer's Map to find Windbrisk Heights and ensure you put something awesome under the Windbrisk. My first thought was Craterhoof Behemoth because you can put him into play while you still haven't done damage and give your tokens +4/+4 or better that may often be enough to win. Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite might be better from time to time. Iona might lock up some games and of course Emrakul is an option.
Congregation at Dawn requires two green and one White to work, that's fairly heavy green. Hard to splash it. So I'm not sure you could run black. One of the best things about tokens is Thoughtseize.
The deck you are looking for is called Smurfs I believe, it's a UW Polymorph based deck that uses the tokens spells to cheat in emrakul while also being able to do it off windbrisk heights while using the tokens aggro strategy as a back up. BW Tokens is a midrange deck, not a combo deck.
I was sorta thinking that Ctaterhoof is stronger than Emrakul because it could end the game when it comes into play as it has an activated ability so even removing it doesn't really change the effect much. Also was thinking Congregation at Dawn ensures you put exactly what you want in the Windbrisk Heights.
That being said adding blue to the deck could be interesting...
I've actually cast an Emrakul from under a Windbrisk before in this deck. There used to be a UB Mill deck in my locale and I threw Emrakul in the side just to beat him. Then I brought him in against Affinity because at the time I thought Affinity was a bad matchup. He did end up winning me the game I had no business winning so that was cool.
I'm pretty sure I said that in the primer "Run the hattiest hate possible", lol. Anyway, my side, and explanations Rest in Peace Storm, Living End (which I think could see more play) Stony Silence Affinity, Tron Aven Mindcensor Amulet Bloom, Scapeshift (I like this one, because it's very rarely used) Torpor Orb Twin, random jank like Elves and Soul Sisters Disenchant Affinity, Boggles (I chose this over sundering growth because of blood moon) Leyline of Sanctity Burn
Keep in mind that sideboards are also mildly tempered by the main. I main 6 discard, and 8 removal, so I don't have thoughtseize effects in my sideboard.
I think angels grace is a cute trick. It's at least worth a shot, although I think you'd be better off with Runed Halo naming valakut, splinter twin, lightning bolt, grapeshot, etc. The split second trick is definitely something Runed Halo lacks.
I think Liliana of the Veil may edge her way in over the Torpor Orb. I currently have little to no game against boggles, and control shells have had good results recently, too. Liliana really shines in the control match.
Now that I have thought about it, I may have gotten that thing about sideboards from you.
Anyway, Angel's Grace shines against UR storm and Ad Nauseam decks because they usually use all their gas on the turn that they try to kill you, an angel's grace on that turn when they try to do lethal damage on you will usually means that they won't have gas on their next turn, also both decks sides in echoing truth, in case of leyline of sanctity, so runed halo usually won't save you from lethal.
although, I only side-in Angel's Grace against those two decks plus Amulet of Bloom, Against any other deck, not so much.
But hey, that's 3 decks that it can screw, that is good enough for me to get it included on my SB.
I'm pretty sure I said that in the primer "Run the hattiest hate possible", lol. Anyway, my side, and explanations Rest in Peace Storm, Living End (which I think could see more play) Stony Silence Affinity, Tron Aven Mindcensor Amulet Bloom, Scapeshift (I like this one, because it's very rarely used) Torpor Orb Twin, random jank like Elves and Soul Sisters Disenchant Affinity, Boggles (I chose this over sundering growth because of blood moon) Leyline of Sanctity Burn
Keep in mind that sideboards are also mildly tempered by the main. I main 6 discard, and 8 removal, so I don't have thoughtseize effects in my sideboard.
I think angels grace is a cute trick. It's at least worth a shot, although I think you'd be better off with Runed Halo naming valakut, splinter twin, lightning bolt, grapeshot, etc. The split second trick is definitely something Runed Halo lacks.
I think Liliana of the Veil may edge her way in over the Torpor Orb. I currently have little to no game against boggles, and control shells have had good results recently, too. Liliana really shines in the control match.
Now that I have thought about it, I may have gotten that thing about sideboards from you.
Anyway, Angel's Grace shines against UR storm and Ad Nauseam decks because they usually use all their gas on the turn that they try to kill you, an angel's grace on that turn when they try to do lethal damage on you will usually means that they won't have gas on their next turn, also both decks sides in echoing truth, in case of leyline of sanctity, so runed halo usually won't save you from lethal.
although, I only side-in Angel's Grace against those two decks plus Amulet of Bloom, Against any other deck, not so much.
But hey, that's 3 decks that it can screw, that is good enough for me to get it included on my SB.
Angel's grace isn't going to be very good against Storm. They generally board in Empty the Warrens against any white deck, and overall it's just a poor way to interact with them. They won't have a hard time finding a way to deal you 1 damage before you kill them. Sundering Growth, Removal, RIP, Relic, Surgical Extraction are all more profitable ways to interact.
Vs Ad Nauseam it's perfect. Fairly rare deck to run into though, there are 2 in my local meta but they rarely show up.
vs Bloom Titan it makes sense, as long as they leave Hive Mind in. Sometimes they board out the Hive Mind stuff, I think they would leave it vs tokens though.
Empty the Warrens? I would be so happy if that would be their kill card of choice on Game 2 onwards so that Zealous Persecution can do a one-sided wrath on them.
Granted some UR Storm has lightning bolt, but still usually when they go off, they spend all their resources, so after an angel's grace stops their 20 copies of grapeshot, they will usually need a top decked lightning bolt to kill you.
Sundering Growth? They can just go off without the pyromancer ascension
Rest in peace? they can echoing truth it at end of turn before they try to go off. Same with Leyline of Sanctity.
Surgical Extraction? which card? grapeshot? they generally board empty the warrens, right?
granted it costs zero mana so it shouldn't mess with your mana curve, same with leyline of sanctity most of the time.
also, these 3 cards are counterable, angel's grace isn't.
It's a build-around-me card. I could see it doing very well. But i feel like the shell needs to be different instead of just straight token spells. A RW or RWb tokens deck might work well with it. Hard to say, without having done any testing or brewing with it.
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RE: BW being competitive:
I have always believed that it has the capability to be competitive but can be hard to play sometimes/fall on its face when things don't work out properly. That being said, it will take the right kind of list, and the proper pilot to play the deck to success. Can it be done though? I think so. Will it? I don't think so. I don't think enough people give it enough credit to make people want to play/try it. The proof is that a few people have randomly posted on this thread saying things like "tried it. thought it'd be fun. it sucks" or "yea, BW tokens will never be good enough, but I heard a noob say it was fun so there's that" and crap like that. As long as people view the deck like that, no one will think it is good enough.
2 Hero of Bladehold
Spells:34
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Path to Exile
2 Thoughtseize
2 Bitterblossom
2 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Dismember
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Lingering Souls
2 Timely Reinforcements
4 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Spectral Procession
4 Flooded Strand
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
4 Marsh Flats
4 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Angel's Grace
2 Spellskite
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Zealous Persecution
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Digging Leyline right now. So good in so many match ups.
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
GB Midrange HomebrewBG
Modern
Affinity X
EDH
Jarad, Golgari Lich LordBG
WBTokensWB
Also I never expected someone to refer to the Modern pre-constructed event deck as a rogue deck. That's quite a stretch
2 Hero of Bladehold
Spells
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
4 Spectral Procession
3 Timely Reinforcements
4 Lingering Souls
Buffs
2 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Elspeth Tirel
1 Sorin Solemn Visitor
Lands
3 Windbrisk Heights
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Torpor Orb
2 Disenchant (blood moon)
3 Leyline of Sanctity
The deck has been performing very well, and I do think tokens is viable competitively. The issue comes from the deck's fairness. We are not a unique/difficult to fight strategy (like infect or living end), we don't draw, we don't combo, we don't over abuse card synergy (Tron, Unburial Gifts). We are cheap though. If you roll without Bitterblossom or Liliana, you can build the deck for under $500. Thoughtseize, Sorin, and fetch lands are in standard and easy to get traded. Everything else is in the event deck. For an enthusiast like me, the deck is GREAT. From the view point of a very competitive player with a $1000+ dollar budget, why not just run twin, with more draw effects, an instant win combo, and a bolt+snap+bolt backup plan?
TL:DR - Tokens can beat anything out there, but not as consistently as the tier one crowd. If you like the playstyle, and don't want a $1000+ deck, it's a great option.
Side note: If we got something silly, like 1W "draw a card, get a 1/1 flying spirit", or a white BB that doesn't hurt you, this deck might push to tier one.
I'm pretty sure I said that in the primer "Run the hattiest hate possible", lol. Anyway, my side, and explanations
Rest in Peace Storm, Living End (which I think could see more play)
Stony Silence Affinity, Tron
Aven Mindcensor Amulet Bloom, Scapeshift (I like this one, because it's very rarely used)
Torpor Orb Twin, random jank like Elves and Soul Sisters
Disenchant Affinity, Boggles (I chose this over sundering growth because of blood moon)
Leyline of Sanctity Burn
Keep in mind that sideboards are also mildly tempered by the main. I main 6 discard, and 8 removal, so I don't have thoughtseize effects in my sideboard.
I think angels grace is a cute trick. It's at least worth a shot, although I think you'd be better off with Runed Halo naming valakut, splinter twin, lightning bolt, grapeshot, etc. The split second trick is definitely something Runed Halo lacks.
I think Liliana of the Veil may edge her way in over the Torpor Orb. I currently have little to no game against boggles, and control shells have had good results recently, too. Liliana really shines in the control match.
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Marsh Flats
5x Plains
3x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windswept Heath
2x Honor of the Pure
4x Intangible Virtue
1x Dismember
4x Path to Exile
4x Raise the Alarm
3x Zealous Persecution
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Thoughtseize
2x Hero of Bladehold
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Dismember
2x Duress
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Rootborn Defenses
2x Stony Silence
2x Sundering Growth
2x Wrath of God
I chose Brimaz because he can generate a lot of tokens quickly and has a big butt. I was running Auriok champion there initially but I haven't seen as many delver decks. Mirran Crusader is also a viable option I feel for ABzan match ups and stuff, so Brimaz does get sided out a lot after Game 1. Curious to see what anyone else things.
My sideboard, I feel, is pretty cut and Dry.
Auriok Champion-Burn/Delver/Red based aggro decks
Dismember-Abzan/Midrange Decks
Duress-Twin/Storm
Crusader-Abzan Green based decks
Rootborn Defense-Cause there is always that one control deck with a ton of board wipes plus populate!
Stony Silence-Tron/Affinity
Sundering Growth-Tron/Affinity/Populate!
Wrath of God- For aggro decks, I feel we have an easier time recovering since we get multiple creatures off one card and it doesn't hit our Anthems
Decks
Modern
BGR Jund RGB
BW Eldrazi and Taxes WB
BWGAbzan Company GWB
Mtgo Modern
G Company Elves G
Modern: Eldrazi Tron, UW Tron, GR Tron, BW Tokens, WU Death and Taxes
Congregation at Dawn requires two green and one White to work, that's fairly heavy green. Hard to splash it. So I'm not sure you could run black. One of the best things about tokens is Thoughtseize.
The deck you are looking for is called Smurfs I believe, it's a UW Polymorph based deck that uses the tokens spells to cheat in emrakul while also being able to do it off windbrisk heights while using the tokens aggro strategy as a back up. BW Tokens is a midrange deck, not a combo deck.
I was sorta thinking that Ctaterhoof is stronger than Emrakul because it could end the game when it comes into play as it has an activated ability so even removing it doesn't really change the effect much. Also was thinking Congregation at Dawn ensures you put exactly what you want in the Windbrisk Heights.
That being said adding blue to the deck could be interesting...
Now that I have thought about it, I may have gotten that thing about sideboards from you.
Anyway, Angel's Grace shines against UR storm and Ad Nauseam decks because they usually use all their gas on the turn that they try to kill you, an angel's grace on that turn when they try to do lethal damage on you will usually means that they won't have gas on their next turn, also both decks sides in echoing truth, in case of leyline of sanctity, so runed halo usually won't save you from lethal.
although, I only side-in Angel's Grace against those two decks plus Amulet of Bloom, Against any other deck, not so much.
But hey, that's 3 decks that it can screw, that is good enough for me to get it included on my SB.
Angel's grace isn't going to be very good against Storm. They generally board in Empty the Warrens against any white deck, and overall it's just a poor way to interact with them. They won't have a hard time finding a way to deal you 1 damage before you kill them. Sundering Growth, Removal, RIP, Relic, Surgical Extraction are all more profitable ways to interact.
Vs Ad Nauseam it's perfect. Fairly rare deck to run into though, there are 2 in my local meta but they rarely show up.
vs Bloom Titan it makes sense, as long as they leave Hive Mind in. Sometimes they board out the Hive Mind stuff, I think they would leave it vs tokens though.
Granted some UR Storm has lightning bolt, but still usually when they go off, they spend all their resources, so after an angel's grace stops their 20 copies of grapeshot, they will usually need a top decked lightning bolt to kill you.
Sundering Growth? They can just go off without the pyromancer ascension
Rest in peace? they can echoing truth it at end of turn before they try to go off. Same with Leyline of Sanctity.
Surgical Extraction? which card? grapeshot? they generally board empty the warrens, right?
granted it costs zero mana so it shouldn't mess with your mana curve, same with leyline of sanctity most of the time.
also, these 3 cards are counterable, angel's grace isn't.
The 3 drop spot is filled up, its hard to add another or justifying taking any of the other 3 drops out.