Hazard, you talked about late gam top decking a bad discard and would rather have Sculler. After seeing your list and you wanting a Hero in there, I have to say, I'd rather top deck a Hero... I would take out 2 Sculler for 2 Hero.
Just returned from a 3-round tournament with my abzan list (posted on page 58).
The rounds where:
2-0 against White weenies. His list with Thalia and Dryad Militant was annoying, but Zealous Persecution was just the gamebreaker. I noticed that the manabase fights a LOT against a turn 3 spectral procession, but that was delayed by thalia already. Zealous conscriptions managed to get a LOT on game 2: 2 dryad, 2 thalia, one Kitchen Finks and one Aven Mindcensor. While my count right now is 3, I will search for the 4th one
0-2 against WUR / jeskai control. First game, opening hand with Honor of the pure, Voice of Resurgence, Siege Rhino and lands. On turn 2 I tapped out for anthem and he snatched my voice with a vendillon clique. Never saw other creature. On match 2, both thoughtseize, inquisition of kozilek and duress where put to work, snatching wrath of god, snapcasters, bolts, but he got his way with burn and restoangel.
2-0 against abzan. Turn 3 sword of light and shadow was game. Got back rhino and voice with flying spirits. So powerful! Game 2 saw almost all Lingering Souls on the deck, 2-for-1'ning almost everything. Again, the Zealous conscriptions proved beying powerful.
Some comments:
The manabase suffers a lot. Turn one IoK into turn 2 voice hits hard. Turn 3 spectral procession was impossible, for me.
Agree on the Turn 2/3 problem. If the hand has anthem into lingering souls, it's awesome. Almost anything else is harder.
The Gavony townships where nice, but not awesome. It doesn't help that they showed up only against Abzan. Still think they need more test.
Still, never saw brimaz, so can't decide if he stays or not. Ill test a bit more with him...
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My main issue with bitterblossom is that it is a clock on you without any life gain. Basically, I have to combo two cards to get an advantage. On the other hand, it is another threat on the board.
What I mean by a hole is that we don't really have good threats at one and two mana. Young pyromancer, if it was white, would be an auto include. We have anthems and other stuff, but nothing that gives an immediate board advantage like Tarmogoyf. Even the blossom incurs a cost and sets us back. Basically, if you play tokens, you give your opponent two free turns before snything really threatening resolves.
Have you thought of going to 23 lands and cutting a sculler for two hero of bladehold?
Our ideal turn 1 is discard, I play many strong two drops, Tidehallow, auriok, BB. My first 2 turns I am normally doing something. And from turn 3 onwars everyone knows whatt they're doing. My list plays a lot of two drops to give it more presence in the early game. I don't want to drop to below 24 lands becasue then I won't be able to have the 3 ghost quarter. I really like having them because they give us something for man lands, tron and I was able to shut twin off red and win a game at 1 life because of them. I would consider giving up sculler for a hero. I'll wait till I feel like I'm lacking enough late game or feel that sculler is starting to lack, but for now the lsit is running well so I think I'll keep it as in.
Hazard, you talked about late gam top decking a bad discard and would rather have Sculler. After seeing your list and you wanting a Hero in there, I have to say, I'd rather top deck a Hero... I would take out 2 Sculler for 2 Hero.
I feel the early game advantage of sculler is better than hero. Sculler is going to have an effect on the opponent the turn its on the field, while hero will have to wait til turn 4 and then if vsing a combo deck I'd still rather sculler. We have a strong game vsing creature strategies already. If I have to cut my safety cards I think I can go without for the time being.
I find that the scullers are very good against combo and control; keeping some of the decks off of their plan. In a fast meta, they seem to hurt. There is one store that I visit where I will always use scullers and my walkers. The other one I leave the scullers at home and seriously consider not using walkers. Sculler is definitely a meta decision, IMO. They are cheap too so it is easy to try them out for a test run.
The MOMENT that something other than a token hits the board we are going to lose it to removal. In that regard, sculler is clearly superior to the Hero. If you can play to ensure a clear hand and then play you creatures, that is ideal. That is why I find any of the creature choices given here problematic. I don't know how often people check to see if the coast is clear before they play their creatures. Again, an advantage of sculler is that you can see the removal and take it before you play your big threat.
On the other hand, if you play against a lot of threats, then more removal makes sense because at least your opponent has to tap in resources to put it down before you kill it. That argues for a lower mana curve and token creatures like Raise the Alarm.
That is good to know about Abzan. I always worry about the mana base of three colors. I also have thought about splashing green just for Gavony Township alone.
I find that the scullers are very good against combo and control; keeping some of the decks off of their plan. In a fast meta, they seem to hurt. There is one store that I visit where I will always use scullers and my walkers. The other one I leave the scullers at home and seriously consider not using walkers. Sculler is definitely a meta decision, IMO. They are cheap too so it is easy to try them out for a test run.
The MOMENT that something other than a token hits the board we are going to lose it to removal. In that regard, sculler is clearly superior to the Hero. If you can play to ensure a clear hand and then play you creatures, that is ideal. That is why I find any of the creature choices given here problematic. I don't know how often people check to see if the coast is clear before they play their creatures. Again, an advantage of sculler is that you can see the removal and take it before you play your big threat.
On the other hand, if you play against a lot of threats, then more removal makes sense because at least your opponent has to tap in resources to put it down before you kill it. That argues for a lower mana curve and token creatures like Raise the Alarm.
IfI were playing in a fast meta I would play 3-4 Timely Reinforcements over sculler.
Serra avenger isnt as great as we need it, you need to aethervial it in like with D&T otherwise its a bit of a waste
Auriok champ gainst more like than finks, and redcap is just bad.
As for Auriok champ being a winmore card, it depends on the meta and the build its in. I find it indispensable, not win more at all, its more like win more games because its in the mainboard. Because tokens is aggro/control/combo there are a significant amount of lists that you will just end up racing and the champ has won me more than i can count by gaining my 6+ life a game and incidentally being able to block or attack through relevant creatures. And with burn being our theoretically worst matchup outside maybe tron while being 8% of the meta it feels essential.
I could see myself swapping some (or all) Voice of Resurgences for auriok champion. This may ease things on the manabase. Kitchen Finks is not THAT good on this deck, IMO. We already have lots of 2-for-1, and the lifegain is marginal, compared to auriok champ.
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If you are playing against Hatebears, Zoo, Meerfolk or almost every Aggro Deck Kitchen Finks is the card I want to have. Often it is a 4/3 Persist creature giving you life and trades creatures/removel of your opponent 1:2. Finks are awesome against any type of control, too. In my opinion Timely Reinforcement is the worst card you could play. In my experience I didn`t got any Tokens froms this spell quite often which were needed for counter attack and to play a 3 mana spell to gain 6 Life isn`t the thing. TR is a better card for control players like UWR for example. All in all both Cards ar SB-Options and not suitable for your mainboard.
The beauty of Timely Reinforcements is that it is the perfect come from behind card. Sure it is a dead card when you are ahead, or won't produce tokens when you are ahead on the board, but you are ahead so what's the worry? Timely Reinforcements it is the best top deck when you are behind bar none. Against any deck that I can typically get behind against I bring in 3 TR to complement Lingering Souls and Midnight Haunting that I run at 3 CMC. I have rarely been disappointed.
yes but you never want to sit with a 3 mana card that potentially does nothing. It doesnt make your bad matchups better, or at least not significantly better to warrant the exclusion of a better card. Timely reinforcements are good for more pure control decks that will always be playing from behind or alternatively, rarely lose when they are ahead. And it makes their worst matchups way better, but is basically never a dead card for them. You cant compare BW tokens to a UWx control deck for example since we are not pure control.
If you are playing against Hatebears, Zoo, Meerfolk or almost every Aggro Deck Kitchen Finks is the card I want to have. Often it is a 4/3 Persist creature giving you life and trades creatures/removel of your opponent 1:2. Finks are awesome against any type of control, too. In my opinion Timely Reinforcement is the worst card you could play. In my experience I didn`t got any Tokens froms this spell quite often which were needed for counter attack and to play a 3 mana spell to gain 6 Life isn`t the thing. TR is a better card for control players like UWR for example. All in all both Cards ar SB-Options and not suitable for your mainboard.
The beauty of Timely Reinforcements is that it is the perfect come from behind card. Sure it is a dead card when you are ahead, or won't produce tokens when you are ahead on the board, but you are ahead so what's the worry? Timely Reinforcements it is the best top deck when you are behind bar none. Against any deck that I can typically get behind against I bring in 3 TR to complement Lingering Souls and Midnight Haunting that I run at 3 CMC. I have rarely been disappointed.
In my opinion you should avoid playing cards which "could" be awesome in your SB. I played TR for myself for a short time and it was not that awesome the point I could play it for its value. TR force you to play it on a certain point of the game. Sometimes you can not chose to wait because the boardstate can change every turn making TR a dead card again. I experienced to many situations in which TR was completly useless cause I had to wait until this scenario occured:
1. Situations where both players are below 10 Life but he has not more life than me. I died to Etched Champion, Rampager discard on Loam Lion, new casted Rhino with followed attack of his creatures, Burn or Islandwalk due spreading seas. If I were able to stock up my life more early in the game (Finks or "more" Champions) I would probably survived some of this situations besides I would be able to do more preassure on my opponent. Instead I had to wait until I could cast TR.
2. The tokenaspect of this card is useless in really 50% of all games. So many times i have more or at least the same count of creatures like my opponent but far not the better boardstate. I could give so many examples like Tarmogoyf, Rhino, Nacatle on his side an me having 3 1/1 Spirits.
3. There are some situations where I had a good state but died the following turn due a sweeper like Pyroclasm (Zoo), Whipflare (Affinity) or Persecution (Tokens) giving the opponent the possibility to deal a great amount of dmg in just one swing and you were not able to cast TR before.
Besides it is not a good idea to say TR is the best top deck against the relevant decks because against them I dont want topdecks like this too late. I want to play`and have it as soon as possible (opening hand).
I think you are completely overstating the problems with the card. Sure it is situational, so it is relegated to the sideboard. At the end of the day, it is a card that can give me both 6 life AND 3 tokens if I am in the need of either. Maybe I wouldn't pay 3 mana for either mode on its own, but the flexibility makes it worth the include.
Also, playing it out of your opening hand isn't that far-fetched. Fetch a couple times with a shockland or a thoughtseize in there and you are behind on life turn 3. It is also reasonable to not have any creatures out turn 3 either to cash in on the tokens. Having it in your opening hand requires you to change your play style to maximize its use. With an opening hand of Raise the Alarm or Voice and Timely Reinforcements maybe it is not appropriate to jam Raise or Voice turn 2. Maybe it is more important to wait and throw them down turn 4 after a resolved Timely Reinforcements.
Yea, there's nothing wrong with one or two Timely Reinforcements in the side. They do well against burn and other creature based/aggressive decks. Definitely won me the game a few times. As stewuselss pointed out, you kind of have to play your hand/game a bit differently to make the most of it.
Went 2-0-1 at my modern 3 rounder. (First place for this month's Star City pin!)
R1: 2-1 vs. BGw. Opponent almost never plays anything but various versions of BGx. Hate the matchup because he sides something like 3 golgari charms, 2 engineered explosives and some number of maelstrom pulses on top of the abrupt decays and has loads of man-lands on top of Goyfs, Rhinos, and a couple Doran.
R2: 1-1 vs. RW. Weird deck. Not devotion based, but included Stormbreath dragon, Boros Reckoner, Kor Firewalker, Boros Charm, Lightning Bolt, outpost seige, and some pyroclasm effects. Won G1. G2 I sideboarded completely wrong as I put him on a very different deck, had no way to get rid of outpost seige, which was back breaking over the course of the game, and lost with a minute left in the round. No game 3.
R3: 2-1 vs. Wg Hatebears. Lots of copies of Thalia, stuff to prevent library searching, flickerwhisp, etc. Hate playing against this deck but barely eked out a win possibly should have lost.
Other random note, I was using 7 fetches instead of the 8 I'd been on for a while and for some reason I was a lot happier with my mana. Did not sweat the library searching hate or blood moon at all. Also, I'm thinking of putting a creature board wipe in my sideboard.
Did you get to play the Mentor? My limited experience thus far is about what I have to come to expect from my creatures except Hero of Bladehold.
I play modern death and taxes as well. Tokens is vastly superior unless they get thalia and arbiter online, in which case you are hosed just about no matter what.
Did you get to play the Mentor? My limited experience thus far is about what I have to come to expect from my creatures except Hero of Bladehold.
I play modern death and taxes as well. Tokens is vastly superior unless they get thalia and arbiter online, in which case you are hosed just about no matter what.
I played mentor several times. It puts up a lot of pressure and forces removal. I'm going to keep running it and I think two is a pretty solid number. At least one game I won because the other guy could remove either the mentor tokens or the spirit tokens, but not both. The fact that mentor becomes 4 toughness off of a Zealous Persecution is a pretty big deal. I will say that adding Brimaz and Mentor make spell sequencing much more important.
As far as Hatebears/D&T (I guess his deck was probably a hybrid of the archtypes), I hate Thalia, I hate Resto angel, and I hate Flickerwisp. In the past I've been annoyed with arbiter, but today he got played a lot and just didn't matter. I think the mentioned change from 8 to 7 fetch lands might have helped. I think I played through Thalia in every game vs that deck today, and at least once multiple Thalias. Super grind, though.
How does the mentor work so far for you guys? Any good reports regarding its performance?
I guess my opinion in summary might be (with respect to our deck only) "better than Pack Rat, word than Hero of Bladehold." Because we don't really want 4 heroes and run anywhere from 0 to 12 creatures there can be a slot for it. I also think there's likely a version of the deck built around it with drastically different card choices.
I have used it once and had it killed (not unlike a Hero). I was lucky though since I had a handful of other choices, including the Hero. I had it in my hand another time, but didn't play it because I was building a token army and didn't have time. It was coming, but I also had the choice about casting an anthem or a spectral procession.
The rounds where:
2-0 against White weenies. His list with Thalia and Dryad Militant was annoying, but Zealous Persecution was just the gamebreaker. I noticed that the manabase fights a LOT against a turn 3 spectral procession, but that was delayed by thalia already. Zealous conscriptions managed to get a LOT on game 2: 2 dryad, 2 thalia, one Kitchen Finks and one Aven Mindcensor. While my count right now is 3, I will search for the 4th one
0-2 against WUR / jeskai control. First game, opening hand with Honor of the pure, Voice of Resurgence, Siege Rhino and lands. On turn 2 I tapped out for anthem and he snatched my voice with a vendillon clique. Never saw other creature. On match 2, both thoughtseize, inquisition of kozilek and duress where put to work, snatching wrath of god, snapcasters, bolts, but he got his way with burn and restoangel.
2-0 against abzan. Turn 3 sword of light and shadow was game. Got back rhino and voice with flying spirits. So powerful! Game 2 saw almost all Lingering Souls on the deck, 2-for-1'ning almost everything. Again, the Zealous conscriptions proved beying powerful.
Some comments:
The manabase suffers a lot. Turn one IoK into turn 2 voice hits hard. Turn 3 spectral procession was impossible, for me.
Agree on the Turn 2/3 problem. If the hand has anthem into lingering souls, it's awesome. Almost anything else is harder.
The Gavony townships where nice, but not awesome. It doesn't help that they showed up only against Abzan. Still think they need more test.
Still, never saw brimaz, so can't decide if he stays or not. Ill test a bit more with him...
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Our ideal turn 1 is discard, I play many strong two drops, Tidehallow, auriok, BB. My first 2 turns I am normally doing something. And from turn 3 onwars everyone knows whatt they're doing. My list plays a lot of two drops to give it more presence in the early game. I don't want to drop to below 24 lands becasue then I won't be able to have the 3 ghost quarter. I really like having them because they give us something for man lands, tron and I was able to shut twin off red and win a game at 1 life because of them. I would consider giving up sculler for a hero. I'll wait till I feel like I'm lacking enough late game or feel that sculler is starting to lack, but for now the lsit is running well so I think I'll keep it as in.
I feel the early game advantage of sculler is better than hero. Sculler is going to have an effect on the opponent the turn its on the field, while hero will have to wait til turn 4 and then if vsing a combo deck I'd still rather sculler. We have a strong game vsing creature strategies already. If I have to cut my safety cards I think I can go without for the time being.
The MOMENT that something other than a token hits the board we are going to lose it to removal. In that regard, sculler is clearly superior to the Hero. If you can play to ensure a clear hand and then play you creatures, that is ideal. That is why I find any of the creature choices given here problematic. I don't know how often people check to see if the coast is clear before they play their creatures. Again, an advantage of sculler is that you can see the removal and take it before you play your big threat.
On the other hand, if you play against a lot of threats, then more removal makes sense because at least your opponent has to tap in resources to put it down before you kill it. That argues for a lower mana curve and token creatures like Raise the Alarm.
Anybody ever try Kitchen Finks? Murderous Redcap? Serra Avenger?
IfI were playing in a fast meta I would play 3-4 Timely Reinforcements over sculler.
Auriok champ gainst more like than finks, and redcap is just bad.
As for Auriok champ being a winmore card, it depends on the meta and the build its in. I find it indispensable, not win more at all, its more like win more games because its in the mainboard. Because tokens is aggro/control/combo there are a significant amount of lists that you will just end up racing and the champ has won me more than i can count by gaining my 6+ life a game and incidentally being able to block or attack through relevant creatures. And with burn being our theoretically worst matchup outside maybe tron while being 8% of the meta it feels essential.
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The beauty of Timely Reinforcements is that it is the perfect come from behind card. Sure it is a dead card when you are ahead, or won't produce tokens when you are ahead on the board, but you are ahead so what's the worry? Timely Reinforcements it is the best top deck when you are behind bar none. Against any deck that I can typically get behind against I bring in 3 TR to complement Lingering Souls and Midnight Haunting that I run at 3 CMC. I have rarely been disappointed.
I think you are completely overstating the problems with the card. Sure it is situational, so it is relegated to the sideboard. At the end of the day, it is a card that can give me both 6 life AND 3 tokens if I am in the need of either. Maybe I wouldn't pay 3 mana for either mode on its own, but the flexibility makes it worth the include.
Also, playing it out of your opening hand isn't that far-fetched. Fetch a couple times with a shockland or a thoughtseize in there and you are behind on life turn 3. It is also reasonable to not have any creatures out turn 3 either to cash in on the tokens. Having it in your opening hand requires you to change your play style to maximize its use. With an opening hand of Raise the Alarm or Voice and Timely Reinforcements maybe it is not appropriate to jam Raise or Voice turn 2. Maybe it is more important to wait and throw them down turn 4 after a resolved Timely Reinforcements.
R1: 2-1 vs. BGw. Opponent almost never plays anything but various versions of BGx. Hate the matchup because he sides something like 3 golgari charms, 2 engineered explosives and some number of maelstrom pulses on top of the abrupt decays and has loads of man-lands on top of Goyfs, Rhinos, and a couple Doran.
R2: 1-1 vs. RW. Weird deck. Not devotion based, but included Stormbreath dragon, Boros Reckoner, Kor Firewalker, Boros Charm, Lightning Bolt, outpost seige, and some pyroclasm effects. Won G1. G2 I sideboarded completely wrong as I put him on a very different deck, had no way to get rid of outpost seige, which was back breaking over the course of the game, and lost with a minute left in the round. No game 3.
R3: 2-1 vs. Wg Hatebears. Lots of copies of Thalia, stuff to prevent library searching, flickerwhisp, etc. Hate playing against this deck but barely eked out a win possibly should have lost.
As far as my deck, I was on:
3 Path to Exile
2 Murderous Cut
3 Zealous Persecution
Anthems
2 Honor of the Pure
3 Intangible Virtue
Tokens
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
Discard
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Creatures
2 Hero of Bladehold
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Auriok Champion
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Brave the Elements
Land
4 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
2 Swamp
5 Plains
2 Windbrisk Heights
2 Isolated Chapel
3 Godless Shrine
2 Vault of the Archangel
2x Sundering Growth
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Thoughtseize
3x Extirpate
3x Kor Firewalker
Other random note, I was using 7 fetches instead of the 8 I'd been on for a while and for some reason I was a lot happier with my mana. Did not sweat the library searching hate or blood moon at all. Also, I'm thinking of putting a creature board wipe in my sideboard.
I play modern death and taxes as well. Tokens is vastly superior unless they get thalia and arbiter online, in which case you are hosed just about no matter what.
I played mentor several times. It puts up a lot of pressure and forces removal. I'm going to keep running it and I think two is a pretty solid number. At least one game I won because the other guy could remove either the mentor tokens or the spirit tokens, but not both. The fact that mentor becomes 4 toughness off of a Zealous Persecution is a pretty big deal. I will say that adding Brimaz and Mentor make spell sequencing much more important.
As far as Hatebears/D&T (I guess his deck was probably a hybrid of the archtypes), I hate Thalia, I hate Resto angel, and I hate Flickerwisp. In the past I've been annoyed with arbiter, but today he got played a lot and just didn't matter. I think the mentioned change from 8 to 7 fetch lands might have helped. I think I played through Thalia in every game vs that deck today, and at least once multiple Thalias. Super grind, though.
I guess my opinion in summary might be (with respect to our deck only) "better than Pack Rat, word than Hero of Bladehold." Because we don't really want 4 heroes and run anywhere from 0 to 12 creatures there can be a slot for it. I also think there's likely a version of the deck built around it with drastically different card choices.
Land (22)
4x Godless Shrine
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Marsh Flats
4x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
2x Windbrisk Heights
Planeswalker (3)
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Sorcery (16)
4x Duress (Inquisition)
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
4x Thoughtseize
Instant (12)
4x Path to Exile
4x Raise the Alarm
4x Zealous Persecution
Enchantment (7)
3x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
OR
Land (22)
4x Godless Shrine
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Windbrisk Heights
Sorcery (15)
3x Duress (Inquisition)
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
4x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (4)
4x Intangible Virtue
Creature (4)
4x Monastery Mentor
Instant (12)
4x Path to Exile
4x Raise the Alarm
4x Zealous Persecution
Planeswalker (3)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
?