Edit: Shadow of Doubt is the most elegant answer to Slaughter Games so far. That said, do we really need to devote sideboard slots it?
That depends, how is the Scapeshift (one-sided cantrip armageddon unless countered), Pod (cantrip edict), and SG-user matchups (cantrip semi-counter)? If it's already really easy, then don't worry about it. If it's a real problem, then devote a few slots.
In the case of Scapeshift though, I thought since the land sacrifice was part of the spell's resolution, and Shadow of Doubt needs to resolve first to stop them from fetching lands (also part of Scapeshift's resolution), they could simply opt to not sacrifice lands when Scapeshift resolves. It still stops them from winning, it just doesn't have the blow out effect of taking out their lands for no benefit.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
It has basically the same cost as Boomerang and has an even greater effect. Definitely worth the SB slot.
What do you guys think about that 5th place TimeWarp deck? "Only" playsets of remand, Giga, and cryptic for disruption. His other slots were diggers and he actually just ignored Howling Mines all together. Would anybody care to take that build for a whirl?! It looks like the original decklist in the primer.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Has anyone tried mystical teachings? You might have to add some black if you want to flash it back but it fetches Dictate as well as most the creatures and spells this deck play. The instant speed lets you leave up counter mana and I've found it hard to add anything outside of timewalks and howling mine that's not instant speed. It does let you run 8 Dictates but you might have to wait until turn 5 to drop it.
Mystical Teachings was discussed earlier in the thread. General consensus was that it doesn't make the cut.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Hey so it turns out that with a playset of Telling Time, you can start to do some nifty things.
1. If you didn't use up counters or a Dictate at opponents EOT, you can dig.
2. You can set up Temporal Mastery
3. You can find another walk by adding 2cmc to its cost but instead of getting a 2/1 body you get different restrictions (grave -> top 3)
4. It just digs, man.
Also, I'm still running Swan Song because it can deal with 2cmc threats like Spirit of the Labyrinth and Eidolon and Pyromancer Ascension. Remand may be great, but it comes out a turn late when you're on the draw. That, and its capacity to late game counter (as opposed to Spell Snare) is really useful. Oh and it can turn an extra Giga or Dictate copy into a 2/2 giving you another out in the event that Jace gets extracted.
I'm thinking of making a budget primer since I don't intend to spend the dough on Cryptics anytime soon. My decklist is probably < $150 which is basically RDW or Infect range.
Telling Time and Serum Visions make perfect sense for the Mill-Combo versions of the deck. Digging for the cards you need to lock in your combo ASAP is the right play.
The Aggro version of the deck isn't looking for specific pieces, it's trying to draw as many cards as possible and make it to turn five. This is why neither Telling Time nor Serum Visions are played in this version of the deck. It also usually only needs 2-3 Time Warp effects, so Temporal Mastery isn't necessary.
While both decks share an engine, it's important to understand differences in play style and strategy to account for that in your card choices. If your goal is to get Jace on the board ASAP and mill your opponent to death, choose the card pool that helps you do that; if your goal is to lock the game and beat your opponent to death, you need to make card choices that work towards that goal.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Telling Time and Serum Visions make perfect sense for the Mill-Combo versions of the deck. Digging for the cards you need to lock in your combo ASAP is the right play.
The Aggro version of the deck isn't looking for specific pieces, it's trying to draw as many cards as possible and make it to turn five. This is why neither Telling Time nor Serum Visions are played in this version of the deck. It also usually only needs 2-3 Time Warp effects, so Temporal Mastery isn't necessary.
While both decks share an engine, it's important to understand differences in play style and strategy to account for that in your card choices. If your goal is to get Jace on the board ASAP and mill your opponent to death, choose the card pool that helps you do that; if your goal is to lock the game and beat your opponent to death, you need to make card choices that work towards that goal.
Knowing that, are they still the same deck? I feel that if we both have card draw engines and time walks then it's the same deck. The difference really is just that the aggro version uses creatures as it's disruption and goes for lethal while mill goes for noncreature disruption. Have you guys seen any creature-based day 1 entries?
I have yet to see anyone else play this deck this way.
I consider them to be different branches off the same deck, if not the same deck. Remember that the Combo-Mill version is a highly evolved and refined development from the days of Extraplanar Lens, Snow-Covered Islands, and Emrakul, not to mention the deviations in the land of Laboratory Maniac. It's a very well-trimmed deck. The Aggro version just goes a different route along that evolution, focusing on efficiency over redundancy.
I think conceptually they do the same thing: survive long enough to Time Walk while exploiting Mine effects.
The devilry is in the details.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
I played in a local tournament yesterday and ended up going 2-1. I got to the tournament after they started but still wanted to play so that was my 1 loss of the night.
First round was vs mono black game one I won pretty easy.
Sided out: 1 Howling Mine
Sided in: 1 Exhaustion
This was a much tougher game as he was able to surgical extract both Time warp and Walk the Aeons so without those I couldn't really chain extra turns. I went to a backup plan of playing every mine effect I had which was 4 dictate of Kruphix and 2 howling Mines and then try and draw into Exhaustion or Gigadrowse in order to prevent him from attaching of landing a grey merchant. I ended up winning with that strategy and took the round 2-0
The next round my opponent was playing american control and before we even started playing he scooped up his cards and gave me the win because he didn't want to deal with it. That put me at 2-1 for the night in a small 8 man tournament. Its not much but I think that mono black matchup I had really showed me that if you can't combo into chaining extra turned you can still win the game.
I have yet to see anyone else play this deck this way.
I consider them to be different branches off the same deck, if not the same deck. Remember that the Combo-Mill version is a highly evolved and refined development from the days of Extraplanar Lens, Snow-Covered Islands, and Emrakul, not to mention the deviations in the land of Laboratory Maniac. It's a very well-trimmed deck. The Aggro version just goes a different route along that evolution, focusing on efficiency over redundancy.
I think conceptually they do the same thing: survive long enough to Time Walk while exploiting Mine effects.
The devilry is in the details.
Yup, they are just different ways to win with the same general strategy.
How do you think suspend spells go with this deck? Infiltrator il-Kor sideboard for if they have tons of fliers that you couldn't get past with clique (and it doesn't share a cost with our main mine effect EDIT: or a for a budget aggro version), Delay seems amazing, almost a hard counter later on the couple of turns before you combo out for 1U, Deep-Sea Kraken/Reality Strobe seem OK but a little costly, Dichotomancy seems beautiful against more aggresive decks that are swinging out and they think they are having an extra turn when it comes down on your time walked turn 6.
Hello, new to the discussion, but not the deck. I used to play a UG version of this in standard just after the time spiral block. Good to see it picking up in modern.
Is what I am currently running in my somewhat budget deck. Very low manacurve and versatile play. Try to open with a hand reflecting how you're going to start the game, whether you are going first or second, and if you have previous knowledge or can quickly judge what the opponent might be playing. A turn 1 spell pierce, into a boomerang, into a turn 3 gigadrowse for everything they have on board is a fair play, as long as you don't miss a land drop. Eventually, you're able to land an engine and go from there. After adding Thassa, she seems to be my most reliable win condition. This makes me somewhat nervous although Jace and Mikokoro are fine alternate wincons. I'd add a single laboratory maniac, but it does nothing for the deck beyond being a wincon on its own and is an inefficient creature to boot. I am sure there are better alternatives..
This playstyle and glaring lack of cantrips does put this decklist at risk of running out of steam around turn 4 or 5. Hitting a timewalk with only a single card draw as an engine needlessly puts you in topdeck mode. It is very tempting to get carried away. Im fairly certain it wont have as much trouble once I can get a set of time warps.
I had previously used delay but found it hard to justify more than 2 slots in the decklist if you cannot chain time walks; it does not play well with exhaust and leaves you with 3 turns to find an answer. I had far more success on a previous UG build that used rites of flourishing and other explore effects and savor the moment to ramp hard without allowing the opponent to remove suspend counters.
Deep Sea Kraken is good, but too expensive even to suspend. Assuming you had the mana to suspend it safely, why wouldn't you instead set up your engine for a more reliable win? Assuming you played it after your engine was already underway, again, why wait 9 turns for this win condition to hit the field? The 4/4 flier for 2cc suspend is significantly better because of the shorter clock and reduced cost, but there are better options. Even a hunted phantasms token goblins are irrelevant when it can win the game in less chained walks at the same suspend cost. I am hard pressed to find a superior alternative to Thassa, personally. Vendillion clique looks amazing though outside of my budget and so I have been unable to test it.
Dichotomancy is too circumstantial for my tastes; It is far too dependent on the matchup. That being said, it is definitely a powerhouse for aggro and creature based decks - assuming you live long enough for it to come out of suspend. Reality strobe is somewhat similar and downright brutal once you've combod off. I can definitely see it in the combo mill deck, though not more than as a 1-of. Devoting more slots to it feels like it would be a win-more, since it more or less relies on your opponent already having an unbalanced board.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
As promised, here's my tournament report from Saturday for the Indiana State Modern Championships. This is being written after-the-fact, and a lot was done on-the-fly, so there are some things I just don't remember, sorry.
I can tell you that this is definitely a competitive deck. It has weaknesses, which I will address, but it is tight, vicious, and capable against almost all of the field. It is also deviously disruptive and absolutely oppressive when it goes off, which frequently puts opponents on-tilt by locking them out of matches, which makes it easier to exploit opportunities to stay in or win the game.
Thenarus and I have gone over the main deck card choices thoroughly in this thread already, so I'll skip right to the sideboard.
Chalice of the Void: This is probably the most controversial inclusion in the sideboard. That said, it is quite possibly the strongest card in the sideboard. In the right matchups, this card shuts down the opponent's deck. Chalice set to 1 cripples many of the fast decks that prey upon this deck and makes some of its stronger matchups completely one-sided. This card is an all-star here and deserves a permanent slot in the deck.
Spell Pierce: This is a card that, both going into and coming out of the event, I was not completely sold on. Was it useful? Sometimes. Did it ever mean the difference between a match win and a match loss? No. In losing matches it bought some time. In winning matches it was seldom played. In its defense, it did very well in testing. Still deciding what to do with this slot. As to why it was chosen, the main deck has a plethora of answers for creatures and permanents, but this gave it counter support against decks like Burn and Scapeshift that rely on instants and sorceries.
Echoing Truth: Included for its versatility against token generators and Twin. This card did almost nothing throughout the day. That said, I didn't play any Twin decks, so I probably shouldn't write this off just yet.
Hurkyl's Recall: Makes it possible to win against Affinity. Let's move along.
Spellskite: Do I really need to explain this? It stops direct damage, blocks weenies, and protects other artifacts. The card is amazing! Why wouldn't I have these in my sideboard?
The deck aside, let's look at the matchups. It was a long, exhausting day run on little sleep; and a lot of snap decisions were made so, again, apologies in advance for any missing details.
This is a phenomenal matchup for this deck. This deck's engine cards work as targeted hate for 8Rack's win cons. The fact that he got a game win is a testament to his decklist, his play ability, and the brute force Swiss army knife that is Waste Not.
I played first. He played a Swamp, followed by a discard spell. While Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek are common opening plays for a number of decks, there's only one deck that comfortably leads with a swamp to do so. Banking on that logic, I played Howling Mine on my second turn. His reaction confirmed my suspicions. 8Rack has no inherent means of dealing with artifacts and enchantments that load cards into both players' hands. As the draw engines stacked up, I negated his Racks, Afflictions, and Bridges by loading both of our hands with cards. I took this game pretty easily.
One would think, considering how much I tested against this deck, that I would have written out my sideboard ins and outs ahead of time like I did for most other decks.
Umm...oops?
I sided out all four Exhaustions and three Gigadrowse and brought in four Pierces and three Chalices. I may have also sided out one Boomerang and the last Gigadrowse for the two Echoing Truth, I don't remember (see how much of an impact Echoing Truth had?). I didn't see any Chalices throughout this game. He managed to get two Waste Nots in play and, following a jaw-dropping turn where he managed to empty an entire nine-card hand through Waste Not mana, he proceeded to take the win.
Landing an early-game Chalice followed by a series of draw engine cards locked this game down quickly. We came just short of the end of the round with me winning the game and the match. There was a moment where he played Slaughter Pact that I felt sad that I had sided out my Exhaustions, but a win is still a win and, aside from an unlikely style kill, the deck runs better without them in this match.
As other players finished their matches and ours dragged on, an excited crowd drew around us. Throughout the day, people were fascinated by this deck.
...unless they were playing against it.
Those of you who are veteran competitive players know by the score above that this is a match win for me. Unfortunately, I was instructed by the judge overseeing the game when we went into extra rounds to change the results I recorded on the slip from one win for me, one draw, and no wins for my opponent to one win for me, one win for him, and one draw. This means instead of scoring a win for this match, I scored a draw.
From a points standpoint, that 2 points was the difference between my 12th place finish and a Top 8 finish. Does this mean I would have gotten into the Top 8? Maybe yes, maybe no...it would have changed who I played in my subsequent matches which could've meant a worse finish.
My opponent did get in the Top 8, partially on the back of this match result. He went on to finish 2nd in the event, which means it's possible this call skewed the event. Why did the judge make this call? Read on to find out.
He dropped a first turn Martyr, which netted him fifteen life on turn two. It became a steady climb from there with him gaining life and me nickel and dimeing him for damage. I played the majority of the game defensively, locking him out of attacks with Exhaustion and Cryptic until I had a steady set of card draw permanents and some Time Warps. I then proceeded to walk him from forty-two life to lethal. This game took almost forty minutes to play out, but it taught me that this deck rewards patience. I also noticed that the more calmly and rationally I played, the more frustrated and irrationally my opponents did. I developed two habits that worked well for me while playing throughout the day.
Not resorting the cards in my hand as I drew them so I gave no unconscious information to my opponent.
Scanning my hand for cards that would be relevant during my opponents turn, then putting my hand face-down on the table before passing turn and focusing my undivided attention on my opponent and their actions throughout their turn, only picking my hand up after telling them to pause if I had a card in-hand to address the situation.
By the time this game finished, people had started gathering to watch. We were at the end of a table, which made doing so easier for onlookers to gather. This seemed to be the biggest crowd to gather throughout the day, but I was focused on the game, so I wasn't really certain of how many people were there.
Note to self: Echoing Truth and the Chalices would be a good name for a gothic-themed classic rock band.
Back on topic, I only drew one draw engine this game which he hit with Sundering Growth, but an early-game Chalice of the Void set to 1 and some strategic use of Boomerang kept him out of the game long enough to grind him down even after an early-game Martyr followed up by Serra's Ascendant pushed him up to forty-one life.
When we inevitably went into extra rounds, I took three of them (plus Turn Zero) and Exhaustioned him out of Turn Three. I was able to whittle him down to one point of life in Turn Four. I was at eleven life. On Turn Five, he dropped and popped a Martyr of Sands, bringing him to sixteen life. The judge called the round.
Here's where the mistake was made.
I filled out the slip (correctly) as one win for me, one draw, and zero wins for my opponent. The judge corrected me that it was instead one, one, and one. Being tired after a very thought-intensive match, I did not dispute and changed the slip. When I told Thenarus about it on the car ride back, he got very angry and explained the judge's mistake. I've since looked up the DCI Floor rules and he's right, the judge did cost me a win.
Why is this the case?
Matches are only decided by life totals in certain, extreme cases. They are never used in a case like this. In the case of a match where one player has won the first game and the second game is unresolved after extra turns, the player who won the first game wins the match.
I did call them afterwards to make sure they corrected the judge. I wasn't angry (Thenarus was more bothered about it than I was), but I wanted to make sure the judge was corrected so it didn't happen again to someone else.
Does this mean you can read my performance as actually being a Top 8 finish? Not necessarily, as it would have changed my further matchups and possibly led me to a worse win-loss record overall. You can, however, read this match as a win, not a draw.
This was the first time I've ever played against or even seen this deck. I was learning and making decisions on the fly throughout the entire match, so it was an almost entirely reactive and defensive game for me.
My first impression following my opponent playing Razorverge Thicket into Noble Hierarch was that he was playing Death & Taxes or GWHatebears. By the time the first Birthing Pod (of two) came down, however, I had figured it out.
He had no idea what I was playing and was focused instead on completing his combo. He was so locked in that he ran himself down to seven life via fetches, shocks, and phyrexian mana while I set up my pieces and built my hand, interacting only as much as necessary. When he got Deceiver Exarch and Kiki-Jiki into play, he was certain he had won. In response to his first activation of Kiki, I BoomerangedKiki back to his hand. Since he had tapped out, he couldn't recast it.
The following turn, I played out my combo and beat him down in a few walks. After he made some snide comments about how I was so lucky top-decking into the cards I needed (I had been waiting, cards in hand, for him to tap out or go for his combo), he went to his sideboard and I went to mine.
I pulled two Gigadrowse and added both Echoing Truth for Game Two. I'm not sure what all he changed, but he did add Voice of Resurgence and Reclamation Sage in between games. It didn't impact things too much, I just had to play carefully around the former and deal with the latter. He also was nowhere near as generous with his life total.
I had to work a lot harder, but he was still angry about the previous game and I was able to get him off-kilter and take the win.
This game was a blowout disguised as a match I had a chance to win. Both this matchup and a later match made it clear that Control-Aggro style decks are a glaring weakness for this deck. As I used to play URDelver (albeit the Young Pyromancer version), I have no excuse for not being prepared for this match.
I was scrambling like hell to keep pace and couldn't keep anything on the board or get it in play. The frantic pace of the game and never-ending reactions on my part leave me not remembering things clearly.
I pulled Gigadrowse and...I honestly don't remember for Chalice and...I don't remember. It was my turn to be on-tilt.
I felt bad for this guy.
Thenarus is an amazing GRTron Player with a thoroughly refined deck he has developed through over a year of playing and revision. As a result, I have a lot of experience playing and, to a much greater extent, playing against this deck. I know exactly how to hurt it and what to avoid. This deck isn't necessarily favored in this matchup, but it has all the tools to disrupt it and my familiarity with it makes this one winnable for me.
The poor guy just didn't see this coming.
He had a good draw going in the first game and even got to play first. He played an Urza land and dropped a chromatic on the first turn, and another on the second, followed by a Talisman of Impulse. Going into the third, he had two tron pieces, Talisman in play, and the last tron piece in his hand.
From there I was able to combo off and run him down, completely distracting the next table from their game. My opponent was not amused.
I took out Gigadrowse and sided in Spell Pierce. On the second turn I Boomeranged an Urza land back to his hand. He got angry, said something to the effect of "I'm not doing this again," and picked up his cards, conceding the game.
I'm not sure if I'd have won that game or not, but the psychological impact of the first game was enough to take the second one.
Going into this match, I was in 8th Place in the rankings, but needed to win to hold that spot. As the results above show, that did not happen. So why did this match go the way it did? Before I get into the games themselves, let me begin with this:
I absolutely loved Lorwyn-standard Faerie decks. Mistbind Clique is my favorite card ever printed.
That said, I have never been impressed with UBFaerie decks. Most players opt for swords-based strategies that take a ridiculously versatile draw-go deck and lock it into a slow, easily disrupted strategy. I've won matches against UBFaerie decks without taking a single point of damage. My experience up until this point with this deck had been that most of the decks being played following the unbanning of Bitterblossom not only had none of the flare and versatility of their Lorwyn-era inspiration, but might not be capable of doing so in this environment. I wondered "Has magic evolved past the point where this could be a dominant deck?"
I'm so happy to be proven wrong.
The player, who went on to win the event, did admit that it wasn't a list of his devising, but was a friend's brew. Regardless, he piloted it flawlessly. For the first time since getting stomped into the ground by Faerie decks at GP Niigata, I found myself playing against the same juggernaut that dominated Standard for two years straight. The deck's creator had cracked the code.
...and I wasn't able to answer it.
I've never played Draw-Go across from Draw-Go. I did not do well.
Gigadrowse for Spell Pierce and two Boomerangs for Echoing Truth, but it didn't matter as I just couldn't get a foothold. Ended up being taken out by a resolved Mistbind Clique. I talked to him for a bit afterward (found out he plays primarily control decks in Modern) and asked if he had any suggestions. He recommended Vedalken Shackles, so I'm going to give that a try.
I love this deck!
I still have a way to go to improve the sideboard against more matches. I also need to improve my own ability as a player, so I'm better-equipped skillwise in matches where it isn't clear when my opponent will play.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Awesome report! Love seeing this deck shine against the main beasts of the format.
Interesting choice of Chalice of the Void here. I really love the card but without the Sol lands, it doesn't really have it's place in Modern, but I'll be testing this out as well. Can really help out in the control matchups on 2 as wellif we catch them without any mana up through Exhaustion of Gigadrowse.
I've been playing the one-of Teferi in the sideboard alread and I really like him. Since our deck is reactive and likes to be against creature decks, control decks take more tact and can open the door to being blown out of the game more frequently. Teferi makes the game so much more easier once he resolves and can just spell doom for your opponent.
I personally don't really like Shackles as it gets hit by Abrupt Decay, but I'm willing to test it.
Spell Snares over Spell Pierce is quite interesting. I'd like to hear your thoughts behind it.
Also, did you forget to include Oboro and Minamo in the updated list or did you purposely forgo them for some reason?
Hopefully I can attend the tournaments I have in my area - I may not be able to go for personal reasons. I really love thedeck though, and the mainboard is practically flawless. I personally have 2 Howling Mines and 1 Dakra Mystic as it can chump block, eat a Bolt (I love that feature of this card, it prevents a Bolt from hitting my face) and can be an extra point of damage a turn at the expense of being a creature and being easier to kill.
As for the sideboard, there is definitely more that we can do to make sure our sideboard can be one that wins us games. Chalice looks very good to land on 1 and 2.
Thank you very much for the report! Love reading up on your guys' thoughts about the deck. It's great to have you guys on board for this deck!
Cheers~
IMPORTANT NOTE: I can't exactly be sure, but someone will eventually say that Gigadrowse gets countered by Chalice on 1. I think that if you pay for Replicate, the total cost of the spell itself plus the seperate Replicate activation will become the CMC of Gigadrowse. So lets say that you replicate Gigadrowse 3 times. Then the casting cost of Gigadrowse on the stack will be UUUU instead of U, thus not being countered by Chalice on 1. This also works with Thalia, so in the same situation, Gigadrowse will have a total CMC of 1UUUU instead of 4UUUU like what can be frequently expected. DO NOT quote me on this as I am not 100% sure and I do not remember the exact rules of Replicate. If someone can ask a judge through the IRC or someone that is a judge can give us an answer, then that'll be very much appreciated.
EDIT: For the Faeries matchup, what there anything particularly different that the pilot was playing? How washis playstyle? As an afterthought now, how would you suggest beating this deck? The deck is quite known for being an incredibly skillintensive deck that rewards the pilot for playing very tight and I'm just curious as to what you think about the deck after the tournament.
Awesome report! Love seeing this deck shine against the main beasts of the format.
Thank you! It was incredibly fun taking this up against the giants of Modern. It's now been proven that it can throw down with the big boys, but it can be pretty skill intensive.
Interesting choice of Chalice of the Void here. I really love the card but without the Sol lands, it doesn't really have it's place in Modern, but I'll be testing this out as well. Can really help out in the control matchups on 2 as wellif we catch them without any mana up through Exhaustion of Gigadrowse.
Chalice wins matches. If you can bring one in at 1 and another in at 2 against most Burn players, you've locked out their entire deck. It also decimates Soul Sisters, 8Rack, Zoo, Affinity (drop first turn for zero), Infect, and most fast aggro. I was leery at first, too, but this card has proven itself repeatedly. Trust me, it's worth playing.
I've been playing the one-of Teferi in the sideboard alread and I really like him. Since our deck is reactive and likes to be against creature decks, control decks take more tact and can open the door to being blown out of the game more frequently. Teferi makes the game so much more easier once he resolves and can just spell doom for your opponent.
We've been wanting to try it for a long time. The loss against Faeries just solidified it.
I personally don't really like Shackles as it gets hit by Abrupt Decay, but I'm willing to test it.
You don't need to bring it in against Jund and Junk. It's still great against RDW, Delver, Faeries, Stompy, D&T, Hatebears, Affinity, Merfolk, Kiki-Pod, Twin...
Also, did you forget to include Oboro and Minamo in the updated list or did you purposely forgo them for some reason?
There's nothing accidental about the removal of Oboro and Minamo. They were removed to improve the effectiveness of Vedalken Shackles. Neither card was included to use their abilities, they were just passive safety measures against Choke which is a card that, frankly, this deck has a number of better answers available with which to answer.
Hopefully I can attend the tournaments I have in my area - I may not be able to go for personal reasons. I really love thedeck though, and the mainboard is practically flawless. I personally have 2 Howling Mines and 1 Dakra Mystic as it can chump block, eat a Bolt (I love that feature of this card, it prevents a Bolt from hitting my face) and can be an extra point of damage a turn at the expense of being a creature and being easier to kill.
Dakra Mystic is fantastic. We just found we never had the extra mana to spend on its ability. This deck is incredibly mana-intensive.
As for the sideboard, there is definitely more that we can do to make sure our sideboard can be one that wins us games. Chalice looks very good to land on 1 and 2.
Thank you very much for the report! Love reading up on your guys' thoughts about the deck. It's great to have you guys on board for this deck!
Thank you! We're both really enjoying being a part of the development of this deck. It's ridiculously fun and is my unquestioned favorite deck I play. We couldn't have developed this version without the amazing work others on this thread had already done before we got here.
IMPORTANT NOTE: I can't exactly be sure, but someone will eventually say that Gigadrowse gets countered by Chalice on 1. I think that if you pay for Replicate, the total cost of the spell itself plus the seperate Replicate activation will become the CMC of Gigadrowse. So lets say that you replicate Gigadrowse 3 times. Then the casting cost of Gigadrowse on the stack will be UUUU instead of U, thus not being countered by Chalice on 1. This also works with Thalia, so in the same situation, Gigadrowse will have a total CMC of 1UUUU instead of 4UUUU like what can be frequently expected. DO NOT quote me on this as I am not 100% sure and I do not remember the exact rules of Replicate. If someone can ask a judge through the IRC or someone that is a judge can give us an answer, then that'll be very much appreciated.
I always side out Gigadrowse when I bring in Chalice. The synergy it has with other sideboard cards and Boomerang makes Gigadrowse the best card to pull, followed by either Boomerang or Exhaustion depending on the matchup. Those 12 are your usual flex spots for siding in and out. Only remove other cards in special circumstances.
In answer to your question, Replicate makes additional copies of the spell, much like Storm. Each copy, like the original, would have a converted mana cost of 1, so the original spell and all the copies would be countered by any Chalice set to 1.
EDIT: For the Faeries matchup, what there anything particularly different that the pilot was playing? How washis playstyle? As an afterthought now, how would you suggest beating this deck? The deck is quite known for being an incredibly skillintensive deck that rewards the pilot for playing very tight and I'm just curious as to what you think about the deck after the tournament.
He played very draw-go. There were no swords or other sorcery-speed gimmicks (except the usual discard, which I don't remember seeing in game two), just a pile of instants and flash creatures, as well as Pack Rat, which is a beautiful addition to that deck. He waited and laid traps.
How would I play it now? I'd take advantage of the fact that we can play that way too and try to trap him when he went to make plays. It'd be tricky though. The guy was really good. Having access to Spell Snare, Shackles, and Teferi will go a long way in that match.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
I found gigadrowse to be pretty useful in the faeries/control-aggro match up. Tapping all their lands down before you go off is strong and it's hard for them to counter enough of the copies. I haven't played the match up that many times though.
702.53a Replicate is a keyword that represents two abilities. The first is a static ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. The second is a triggered ability that functions while the spell is on the stack. "Replicate [cost]" means "As an additional cost to cast this spell, you may pay [cost] any number of times" and "When you cast this spell, if a replicate cost was paid for it, copy it for each time its replicate cost was paid. If the spell has any targets, you may choose new targets for any number of the copies." Paying a spell's replicate cost follows the rules for paying additional costs in rules 601.2b and 601.2e-g.
706.9. To copy a spell or activated ability means to put a copy of it onto the stack; a copy of a spell isn't cast and a copy of an activated ability isn't activated. A copy of a spell or ability copies both the characteristics of the spell or ability and all decisions made for it, including modes, targets, the value of X, and additional or alternative costs. (See rule 601, "Casting Spells.") Choices that are normally made on resolution are not copied. If an effect of the copy refers to objects used to pay its costs, it uses the objects used to pay the costs of the original spell or ability. A copy of a spell is owned by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell or ability is controlled by the player under whose control it was put on the stack. A copy of a spell is itself a spell, even though it has no spell card associated with it. A copy of an ability is itself an ability.
Chalice of the Void enters the battlefield with X charge counters on it. Whenever a player casts a spell with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Chalice of the Void, counter that spell.
Edit: That said, be careful how often you exploit that. This is not common rules knowledge and not doing this against an RDW player, for example, may prevent them from bringing in the Shattering Sprees they keep in their sideboard for Affinity and using that loophole to remove your Chalices, Spellskites, Shackles, and Mines when you have a Chalice or two on the board otherwise locking them out.
I would only bust that out if I absolutely needed to do so. I'd much rather have my opponents think Chalice stops their removal options than get a small perceived advantage. Don't forget that things like that spread like wildfire at a tournament and once you've let the cat out of the bag, everyone will know to do that. Also, once you let that slip at your LGS, you'll definitely be seeing Shattering Spree come out of sideboards every week.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
Most RDW I've seen (where the interaction came up) are aware of that interaction, since it does get rid of a problem card. I would be careful relying on them not knowing they can force shatterstorm through. I do agree that overall it would be better to just side out the gigadrowses unless the deck is particularly susceptible to them and you feel the player would know they could Shatter Storm anyway.
In the case of Scapeshift though, I thought since the land sacrifice was part of the spell's resolution, and Shadow of Doubt needs to resolve first to stop them from fetching lands (also part of Scapeshift's resolution), they could simply opt to not sacrifice lands when Scapeshift resolves. It still stops them from winning, it just doesn't have the blow out effect of taking out their lands for no benefit.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
What do you guys think about that 5th place TimeWarp deck? "Only" playsets of remand, Giga, and cryptic for disruption. His other slots were diggers and he actually just ignored Howling Mines all together. Would anybody care to take that build for a whirl?! It looks like the original decklist in the primer.
Mine is the albatross around this deck's neck.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
1. If you didn't use up counters or a Dictate at opponents EOT, you can dig.
2. You can set up Temporal Mastery
3. You can find another walk by adding 2cmc to its cost but instead of getting a 2/1 body you get different restrictions (grave -> top 3)
4. It just digs, man.
Also, I'm still running Swan Song because it can deal with 2cmc threats like Spirit of the Labyrinth and Eidolon and Pyromancer Ascension. Remand may be great, but it comes out a turn late when you're on the draw. That, and its capacity to late game counter (as opposed to Spell Snare) is really useful. Oh and it can turn an extra Giga or Dictate copy into a 2/2 giving you another out in the event that Jace gets extracted.
I'm thinking of making a budget primer since I don't intend to spend the dough on Cryptics anytime soon. My decklist is probably < $150 which is basically RDW or Infect range.
The Aggro version of the deck isn't looking for specific pieces, it's trying to draw as many cards as possible and make it to turn five. This is why neither Telling Time nor Serum Visions are played in this version of the deck. It also usually only needs 2-3 Time Warp effects, so Temporal Mastery isn't necessary.
While both decks share an engine, it's important to understand differences in play style and strategy to account for that in your card choices. If your goal is to get Jace on the board ASAP and mill your opponent to death, choose the card pool that helps you do that; if your goal is to lock the game and beat your opponent to death, you need to make card choices that work towards that goal.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Knowing that, are they still the same deck? I feel that if we both have card draw engines and time walks then it's the same deck. The difference really is just that the aggro version uses creatures as it's disruption and goes for lethal while mill goes for noncreature disruption. Have you guys seen any creature-based day 1 entries?
I consider them to be different branches off the same deck, if not the same deck. Remember that the Combo-Mill version is a highly evolved and refined development from the days of Extraplanar Lens, Snow-Covered Islands, and Emrakul, not to mention the deviations in the land of Laboratory Maniac. It's a very well-trimmed deck. The Aggro version just goes a different route along that evolution, focusing on efficiency over redundancy.
I think conceptually they do the same thing: survive long enough to Time Walk while exploiting Mine effects.
The devilry is in the details.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
First round was vs mono black game one I won pretty easy.
Sided out: 1 Howling Mine
Sided in: 1 Exhaustion
This was a much tougher game as he was able to surgical extract both Time warp and Walk the Aeons so without those I couldn't really chain extra turns. I went to a backup plan of playing every mine effect I had which was 4 dictate of Kruphix and 2 howling Mines and then try and draw into Exhaustion or Gigadrowse in order to prevent him from attaching of landing a grey merchant. I ended up winning with that strategy and took the round 2-0
The next round my opponent was playing american control and before we even started playing he scooped up his cards and gave me the win because he didn't want to deal with it. That put me at 2-1 for the night in a small 8 man tournament. Its not much but I think that mono black matchup I had really showed me that if you can't combo into chaining extra turned you can still win the game.
Yup, they are just different ways to win with the same general strategy.
How do you think suspend spells go with this deck? Infiltrator il-Kor sideboard for if they have tons of fliers that you couldn't get past with clique (and it doesn't share a cost with our main mine effect EDIT: or a for a budget aggro version), Delay seems amazing, almost a hard counter later on the couple of turns before you combo out for 1U, Deep-Sea Kraken/Reality Strobe seem OK but a little costly, Dichotomancy seems beautiful against more aggresive decks that are swinging out and they think they are having an extra turn when it comes down on your time walked turn 6.
4x Gigadrowse
3x Noxious Revival
4x Spell Pierce
3x Telling Time
2x Exhaustion
4x Temporal Mastery
3x Walk the Aeons
2x Jace Beleren
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
18x Island
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Howling Mine
1x Kami of the Crescent Moon
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
Is what I am currently running in my somewhat budget deck. Very low manacurve and versatile play. Try to open with a hand reflecting how you're going to start the game, whether you are going first or second, and if you have previous knowledge or can quickly judge what the opponent might be playing. A turn 1 spell pierce, into a boomerang, into a turn 3 gigadrowse for everything they have on board is a fair play, as long as you don't miss a land drop. Eventually, you're able to land an engine and go from there. After adding Thassa, she seems to be my most reliable win condition. This makes me somewhat nervous although Jace and Mikokoro are fine alternate wincons. I'd add a single laboratory maniac, but it does nothing for the deck beyond being a wincon on its own and is an inefficient creature to boot. I am sure there are better alternatives..
This playstyle and glaring lack of cantrips does put this decklist at risk of running out of steam around turn 4 or 5. Hitting a timewalk with only a single card draw as an engine needlessly puts you in topdeck mode. It is very tempting to get carried away. Im fairly certain it wont have as much trouble once I can get a set of time warps.
I had previously used delay but found it hard to justify more than 2 slots in the decklist if you cannot chain time walks; it does not play well with exhaust and leaves you with 3 turns to find an answer. I had far more success on a previous UG build that used rites of flourishing and other explore effects and savor the moment to ramp hard without allowing the opponent to remove suspend counters.
Deep Sea Kraken is good, but too expensive even to suspend. Assuming you had the mana to suspend it safely, why wouldn't you instead set up your engine for a more reliable win? Assuming you played it after your engine was already underway, again, why wait 9 turns for this win condition to hit the field? The 4/4 flier for 2cc suspend is significantly better because of the shorter clock and reduced cost, but there are better options. Even a hunted phantasms token goblins are irrelevant when it can win the game in less chained walks at the same suspend cost. I am hard pressed to find a superior alternative to Thassa, personally. Vendillion clique looks amazing though outside of my budget and so I have been unable to test it.
Dichotomancy is too circumstantial for my tastes; It is far too dependent on the matchup. That being said, it is definitely a powerhouse for aggro and creature based decks - assuming you live long enough for it to come out of suspend. Reality strobe is somewhat similar and downright brutal once you've combod off. I can definitely see it in the combo mill deck, though not more than as a 1-of. Devoting more slots to it feels like it would be a win-more, since it more or less relies on your opponent already having an unbalanced board.
Thenarus played RG Tron and finished 3rd/4th. Tired/hungry...will post more later.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Excited to hear more! (:
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I can tell you that this is definitely a competitive deck. It has weaknesses, which I will address, but it is tight, vicious, and capable against almost all of the field. It is also deviously disruptive and absolutely oppressive when it goes off, which frequently puts opponents on-tilt by locking them out of matches, which makes it easier to exploit opportunities to stay in or win the game.
Enough of that though, let's get to the report!
2 Faerie Conclave
16 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
3 Mutavault
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
Creatures (7)
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Howling Mine
Enchantments (4)
4 Dictate of Kruphix
Instants (12)
4 Gigadrowse
4 Boomerang
4 Cryptic Command
Sorceries (11)
4 Exhaustion
4 Time Warp
3 Walk the Aeons
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Spell Pierce
2 Echoing Truth
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Spellskite
Umm...oops?
I sided out all four Exhaustions and three Gigadrowse and brought in four Pierces and three Chalices. I may have also sided out one Boomerang and the last Gigadrowse for the two Echoing Truth, I don't remember (see how much of an impact Echoing Truth had?). I didn't see any Chalices throughout this game. He managed to get two Waste Nots in play and, following a jaw-dropping turn where he managed to empty an entire nine-card hand through Waste Not mana, he proceeded to take the win.
...unless they were playing against it.
From a points standpoint, that 2 points was the difference between my 12th place finish and a Top 8 finish. Does this mean I would have gotten into the Top 8? Maybe yes, maybe no...it would have changed who I played in my subsequent matches which could've meant a worse finish.
My opponent did get in the Top 8, partially on the back of this match result. He went on to finish 2nd in the event, which means it's possible this call skewed the event. Why did the judge make this call? Read on to find out.
Note to self: Echoing Truth and the Chalices would be a good name for a gothic-themed classic rock band.
Back on topic, I only drew one draw engine this game which he hit with Sundering Growth, but an early-game Chalice of the Void set to 1 and some strategic use of Boomerang kept him out of the game long enough to grind him down even after an early-game Martyr followed up by Serra's Ascendant pushed him up to forty-one life.
When we inevitably went into extra rounds, I took three of them (plus Turn Zero) and Exhaustioned him out of Turn Three. I was able to whittle him down to one point of life in Turn Four. I was at eleven life. On Turn Five, he dropped and popped a Martyr of Sands, bringing him to sixteen life. The judge called the round.
Here's where the mistake was made.
I filled out the slip (correctly) as one win for me, one draw, and zero wins for my opponent. The judge corrected me that it was instead one, one, and one. Being tired after a very thought-intensive match, I did not dispute and changed the slip. When I told Thenarus about it on the car ride back, he got very angry and explained the judge's mistake. I've since looked up the DCI Floor rules and he's right, the judge did cost me a win.
Why is this the case?
Matches are only decided by life totals in certain, extreme cases. They are never used in a case like this. In the case of a match where one player has won the first game and the second game is unresolved after extra turns, the player who won the first game wins the match.
I did call them afterwards to make sure they corrected the judge. I wasn't angry (Thenarus was more bothered about it than I was), but I wanted to make sure the judge was corrected so it didn't happen again to someone else.
Does this mean you can read my performance as actually being a Top 8 finish? Not necessarily, as it would have changed my further matchups and possibly led me to a worse win-loss record overall. You can, however, read this match as a win, not a draw.
He had no idea what I was playing and was focused instead on completing his combo. He was so locked in that he ran himself down to seven life via fetches, shocks, and phyrexian mana while I set up my pieces and built my hand, interacting only as much as necessary. When he got Deceiver Exarch and Kiki-Jiki into play, he was certain he had won. In response to his first activation of Kiki, I Boomeranged Kiki back to his hand. Since he had tapped out, he couldn't recast it.
The following turn, I played out my combo and beat him down in a few walks. After he made some snide comments about how I was so lucky top-decking into the cards I needed (I had been waiting, cards in hand, for him to tap out or go for his combo), he went to his sideboard and I went to mine.
I had to work a lot harder, but he was still angry about the previous game and I was able to get him off-kilter and take the win.
Thenarus is an amazing GR Tron Player with a thoroughly refined deck he has developed through over a year of playing and revision. As a result, I have a lot of experience playing and, to a much greater extent, playing against this deck. I know exactly how to hurt it and what to avoid. This deck isn't necessarily favored in this matchup, but it has all the tools to disrupt it and my familiarity with it makes this one winnable for me.
The poor guy just didn't see this coming.
I played Gigadrowse on his upkeep to tap down his Urza lands. He dropped the last piece to dig with the chromatic, then played either an Ancient Stirrings or a Sylvan Scrying. I played Exhaustion. He dropped another Urza's Tower. I played two Boomerangs, putting his Urza's Mine and Urza's Power Plant back in his hand. He put his Mine back in play: Snapcaster-Boomerang. He puts it down again the next turn: Snapcaster-Boomerang.
From there I was able to combo off and run him down, completely distracting the next table from their game. My opponent was not amused.
I'm not sure if I'd have won that game or not, but the psychological impact of the first game was enough to take the second one.
I absolutely loved Lorwyn-standard Faerie decks. Mistbind Clique is my favorite card ever printed.
That said, I have never been impressed with UB Faerie decks. Most players opt for swords-based strategies that take a ridiculously versatile draw-go deck and lock it into a slow, easily disrupted strategy. I've won matches against UB Faerie decks without taking a single point of damage. My experience up until this point with this deck had been that most of the decks being played following the unbanning of Bitterblossom not only had none of the flare and versatility of their Lorwyn-era inspiration, but might not be capable of doing so in this environment. I wondered "Has magic evolved past the point where this could be a dominant deck?"
I'm so happy to be proven wrong.
The player, who went on to win the event, did admit that it wasn't a list of his devising, but was a friend's brew. Regardless, he piloted it flawlessly. For the first time since getting stomped into the ground by Faerie decks at GP Niigata, I found myself playing against the same juggernaut that dominated Standard for two years straight. The deck's creator had cracked the code.
...and I wasn't able to answer it.
I still have a way to go to improve the sideboard against more matches. I also need to improve my own ability as a player, so I'm better-equipped skillwise in matches where it isn't clear when my opponent will play.
2 Faerie Conclave
16 Island
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
3 Mutavault
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
Creatures (7)
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Howling Mine
Enchantments (4)
4 Dictate of Kruphix
Instants (12)
4 Gigadrowse
4 Boomerang
4 Cryptic Command
Sorceries (11)
4 Exhaustion
4 Time Warp
3 Walk the Aeons
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Spell Pierce
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Spellskite
2 Vedalken Shackles
This deck is a perfect match for my personality and playstyle. Top 8 for sure next time!
Edit: Did some further testing and revision tonight.
2 Faerie Conclave
18 Island
3 Mutavault
Creatures (7)
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
Artifacts (3)
3 Howling Mine
4 Dictate of Kruphix
Instants (12)
4 Gigadrowse
4 Boomerang
4 Cryptic Command
Sorceries (11)
4 Exhaustion
4 Time Warp
3 Walk the Aeons
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Spell Snare
3 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Spellskite
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Interesting choice of Chalice of the Void here. I really love the card but without the Sol lands, it doesn't really have it's place in Modern, but I'll be testing this out as well. Can really help out in the control matchups on 2 as wellif we catch them without any mana up through Exhaustion of Gigadrowse.
I've been playing the one-of Teferi in the sideboard alread and I really like him. Since our deck is reactive and likes to be against creature decks, control decks take more tact and can open the door to being blown out of the game more frequently. Teferi makes the game so much more easier once he resolves and can just spell doom for your opponent.
I personally don't really like Shackles as it gets hit by Abrupt Decay, but I'm willing to test it.
Spell Snares over Spell Pierce is quite interesting. I'd like to hear your thoughts behind it.
Also, did you forget to include Oboro and Minamo in the updated list or did you purposely forgo them for some reason?
Hopefully I can attend the tournaments I have in my area - I may not be able to go for personal reasons. I really love thedeck though, and the mainboard is practically flawless. I personally have 2 Howling Mines and 1 Dakra Mystic as it can chump block, eat a Bolt (I love that feature of this card, it prevents a Bolt from hitting my face) and can be an extra point of damage a turn at the expense of being a creature and being easier to kill.
As for the sideboard, there is definitely more that we can do to make sure our sideboard can be one that wins us games. Chalice looks very good to land on 1 and 2.
Thank you very much for the report! Love reading up on your guys' thoughts about the deck. It's great to have you guys on board for this deck!
Cheers~
IMPORTANT NOTE: I can't exactly be sure, but someone will eventually say that Gigadrowse gets countered by Chalice on 1. I think that if you pay for Replicate, the total cost of the spell itself plus the seperate Replicate activation will become the CMC of Gigadrowse. So lets say that you replicate Gigadrowse 3 times. Then the casting cost of Gigadrowse on the stack will be UUUU instead of U, thus not being countered by Chalice on 1. This also works with Thalia, so in the same situation, Gigadrowse will have a total CMC of 1UUUU instead of 4UUUU like what can be frequently expected. DO NOT quote me on this as I am not 100% sure and I do not remember the exact rules of Replicate. If someone can ask a judge through the IRC or someone that is a judge can give us an answer, then that'll be very much appreciated.
EDIT: For the Faeries matchup, what there anything particularly different that the pilot was playing? How washis playstyle? As an afterthought now, how would you suggest beating this deck? The deck is quite known for being an incredibly skillintensive deck that rewards the pilot for playing very tight and I'm just curious as to what you think about the deck after the tournament.
Modern: Top Control -- UWx Titan -- Loam Pox -- Footsteps Hulk
Legacy: Doomsday -- Death and Taxes -- UR Stasis -- Sylvan Plug
Pauper: UB Teachings -- UR Nivix Control
Thank you! It was incredibly fun taking this up against the giants of Modern. It's now been proven that it can throw down with the big boys, but it can be pretty skill intensive.
Chalice wins matches. If you can bring one in at 1 and another in at 2 against most Burn players, you've locked out their entire deck. It also decimates Soul Sisters, 8Rack, Zoo, Affinity (drop first turn for zero), Infect, and most fast aggro. I was leery at first, too, but this card has proven itself repeatedly. Trust me, it's worth playing.
We've been wanting to try it for a long time. The loss against Faeries just solidified it.
You don't need to bring it in against Jund and Junk. It's still great against RDW, Delver, Faeries, Stompy, D&T, Hatebears, Affinity, Merfolk, Kiki-Pod, Twin...
Almost all of the cards that are threats to this deck that we have trouble answering; such as Eidolon, Mana Leak, Spellstutter Sprite, Snapcaster Mage, Tarmogoyf, Disenchant/Naturalize/Sundering Growth, Bile Blight, Bitterblossom, Remand, etc.; have a converted mana cost of 2. It also has no spell type restrictions. Spell Pierce is useful occasionally. Swan Song has broader applicability, but interferes with the aggro gameplan. Spell Snare, however, is always useful. The benefits of the change were immediately apparent. That one was Thenarus's call, so he deserves the props.
There's nothing accidental about the removal of Oboro and Minamo. They were removed to improve the effectiveness of Vedalken Shackles. Neither card was included to use their abilities, they were just passive safety measures against Choke which is a card that, frankly, this deck has a number of better answers available with which to answer.
Dakra Mystic is fantastic. We just found we never had the extra mana to spend on its ability. This deck is incredibly mana-intensive.
It is.
Thank you! We're both really enjoying being a part of the development of this deck. It's ridiculously fun and is my unquestioned favorite deck I play. We couldn't have developed this version without the amazing work others on this thread had already done before we got here.
I always side out Gigadrowse when I bring in Chalice. The synergy it has with other sideboard cards and Boomerang makes Gigadrowse the best card to pull, followed by either Boomerang or Exhaustion depending on the matchup. Those 12 are your usual flex spots for siding in and out. Only remove other cards in special circumstances.
In answer to your question, Replicate makes additional copies of the spell, much like Storm. Each copy, like the original, would have a converted mana cost of 1, so the original spell and all the copies would be countered by any Chalice set to 1.
He played very draw-go. There were no swords or other sorcery-speed gimmicks (except the usual discard, which I don't remember seeing in game two), just a pile of instants and flash creatures, as well as Pack Rat, which is a beautiful addition to that deck. He waited and laid traps.
How would I play it now? I'd take advantage of the fact that we can play that way too and try to trap him when he went to make plays. It'd be tricky though. The guy was really good. Having access to Spell Snare, Shackles, and Teferi will go a long way in that match.
Hope that answered your questions!
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Chalice of the Void on one will only counter the original Gigadrowse. Replicate creates copies which are not cast so they will still resolve.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/543624-chalice-of-the-void-and-gigadrowse
That doesn't really give the reasoning behind though.
Great find UkkuhrMakhai!
Above explanation originally found here.
Edit: That said, be careful how often you exploit that. This is not common rules knowledge and not doing this against an RDW player, for example, may prevent them from bringing in the Shattering Sprees they keep in their sideboard for Affinity and using that loophole to remove your Chalices, Spellskites, Shackles, and Mines when you have a Chalice or two on the board otherwise locking them out.
I would only bust that out if I absolutely needed to do so. I'd much rather have my opponents think Chalice stops their removal options than get a small perceived advantage. Don't forget that things like that spread like wildfire at a tournament and once you've let the cat out of the bag, everyone will know to do that. Also, once you let that slip at your LGS, you'll definitely be seeing Shattering Spree come out of sideboards every week.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther