So, I've been tossing around the idea of a deck that is all about Madness. Alright, not all about madness, but enough about it that I would like to try and come up with some way of making it work. Long since past are the days of U/G Madness with Basking Rootwalla, but modern has a few decent critters and tools.
Two creatures that I feel would be fairly obvious are Reckless Wurm (which is of course homage to Arrogant Wurm) and Gorgon Recluse. Both are strong creatures for their madness cost, but are fairly expensive otherwise. Non-Creatures give us Fiery Temper and Dark Withering for some cheap and decent removal. Big Game Hunter I feel should also get a mention.
Ways of activating madness should not be ignored, either. In fact, that's probably more important that the madness itself. Lightning Axe seems like a decent thought if we want to discard cards, Oona's Prowler and Trespasser il-Vec give us free and immediate sources of discard with naturally high attack power, while Mad Prophet and Rummaging Goblin ultimately give us card advantage.
There are also non-instant discards like Liliana of the Veil and Cunning Lethemancer that serve a dual purpose of hitting your opponent as well. Chandra Ablaze, while expensive certainly isn't terrible either.
We could include things like Small Pox or Wild Guess, but the point of Madness is it's cheaper and potentially instant speed.
While it's not madness, I will also give a special shout out to Demigod of Revenge for obvious reasons. It also makes Chandra better, though she still is probably too expensive.
Could a deck like this be viable even if it's just at FNM? How would you build it?
The deck is far from perfect but its been fish bowling pretty decently.
Blood Scrivener, Gathan raiders capitalize on the many times this deck has no hand.
I feel there needs to be a 2nd discard outlet other than Oona's Prowler at the 2CMC range, but there is nothing that efficient in modern right now.
Zombie Infestation is the the only one without a mana cost attributed to it unless you want to use Augur of Skulls. I think both could work, honestly, though the former might work out better, especially if you wind up using something like Call to the Netherworld, though to be honest it should be fine anyway. Discarding something like Fiery Temper and Gorgon Recluse seems pretty good. 3 damage, 2/2 Zombie, and a 2/4 Psuedo-Deathtouch ain't bad for 3 mana.
I really like Gathan Raiders, too. That's a wonderful card I hadn't thought about. I really think Demigod of Revenge needs to be in this deck now, especially with that.
I hate to say it but the madness card's just aren't worth building a deck around... The wurm is the best and it isn't even always better than Tarmo when you play it. Plus a 6 mana removal spell that becomes playable with needed discard.
I hate to say it but the madness card's just aren't worth building a deck around... The wurm is the best and it isn't even always better than Tarmo when you play it. Plus a 6 mana removal spell that becomes playable with needed discard.
It just doesn't work.
You kidding right? Madness is powerful. You just got to build it right. What about global discard? So both players are affected?
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
What about global discard? So both players are affected?
I think this is the way to go, gaining advantage while crippling your opponent's hand seems pretty good. Some cards to consider:
Rix maadi, dungeon palace (it only takes a land slot so including x1 is almost free) rotting rats (i really like that you get value for discarding them as well) necrogen mists (this could be a problem for control decks, also doesn't die from conventional removal so it is better than lethemancer)
The problem with things like Rotting Rats is that instead of having a cheaper play, you have to pay for the other ability. Necrogen Mists I think is perfectly fine, though the deck in theory is bloated with 3 drops.
I like nightshade assassin, but my own experience with her suggested that she's not really great in a madness deck. Madness decks, by their very notion, really like the idea of having no cards in hand, or pretty soon won't. Nightshade assassin, to be really effective, actually prefers that you in fact, have several cards in hand. To be blunt, you're going to need at least two to kill off the format's relevant one mana planeswalker (ok, so it's deathrite shaman, but I think you get the idea).
Liliana of the veil is definitely a 3 or 4 of in here. A. It's a consistent discard outlet that requires no mana, and B. it also helps rip your opponents hand apart while still being good on its own.
I wouldn't play gorgon recluse myself. for 2 mana, you can just as easily play a keldon marauders which is a 3/3 and while it only lasts two turns, will probably last about as long in this environment. The grave scrabbler idea does have merit.
Honestly, you'll want to take a look at it as a deck that generates advantage from the graveyard and lack of cards in hand rather than a quick aggro deck, as this format does not have the cheap enablers legacy has. However, red and black both share a number of mechanics that could be good in such a strategy. Unearth has been touched on, but there is also flashback, hellbent, and retrace and each has some good cards in it that would be synergistic with such a strategy. As an example, I know it doesn't have hellbent exactly keyworded (though it should) blood scrivener is one such guy that would do well in this sort of strategy and it was touched on by another person further above. Maybe look at it as a sort of board control deck that also empties their hands in a hurry?
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Umm, 2 cards I don't see being mentioned here are Delirium Skeins and Drekavac. That said, they are both horrible plays if you don't have a card w/ Madness in hand. I've thought about trying this deck for extended once, but there just wasn't enough effective engines out there to make it work.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
On the works: Leyline Deck Wins
:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
The thing about building around a mechanic is you often get cluttered with bad cards. General rule of thumb: Good decks play good cards.
That said, let's take a look at some madness cards.
Reckless Wurm -- Awesome. Legacy used to play Arrogant Wurm, and we're sure as hell gonna play the colorshifted version.
Big Game Hunter -- Pretty good. The biggest thing is that by filling our graveyard we're gonna be pumping up their goyfs, and big game hunter beats out goyf. I would run at least 2, but probably not more than that mainboard.
Fiery Temper -- When cast it for its madness cost, assuming it was a global discard effect à la Liliana of the Veil, it's pure value. The question is, "Is it better than bolt?" and the answer is "Are you seriously asking that question? Of course not." I would run some number of Fiery Temper in addition to 4 bolts, but not as a replacement.
Nightshade Assassin -- Cute, but we aren't gonna be holding cards in our hand.
Gibbering Descent -- It's just... it's too expensive. The effect is awesome but to hardcast it you would be paying 6 and even the madness cost is 4 so I just can't see this being useful.
Grave Scribbler -- Could be good. Best case scenario it's a 2/2 body that grabs our Raiders or whatever back. I might run two.
Call of the Netherworld -- I don't like it. Seems like a dead card a lot.
Brain Gorgers -- I hate it for the same reason I hate Vexing Devil. If it gives your opponent the choice, it's bad. Especially since a 4/2 isn't all that strong.
Dark Withering -- I don't like it. We're often restricted as to when we can actually discard cards since all our best enablers are either at upkeep or sorcery speed, so we're probably better off running terminate and just holding on to it.
Here's some enablers:
Gathan Raiders -- Hell yeah, raiders are awesome. Run 4.
Liliana of the Veil -- Again, amazing card. I would run four, but I'm super greedy. Three is probably the better choice.
Faithless Looting -- I'm actually kind of iffy on looting. It costs a mana, and it's a bad turn one play since we're trying to cast cards as we discard them, not after we discard them. Still, very powerful filtering card.
Zombie Infestation -- I love this card. I'm not sure how powerful it is, but I love it so much just from a thematic standpoint. I would test a few, but a full playset is probably wrong.
Lava Axe -- I hadn't even considered this card, but when I saw Tittliewinks22 mention it I realized it could be really strong. Worth considering.
Oona's Prowler -- Remember when I said good decks run good cards? Don't run Oona's prowler.
Necrogen Mists -- I think this is actually a great card for this, since it affects our opponent so much more than it affects us. It's like Liliana 5-8. (Not that I would run 8 of them, but it's definitely an option.)
Cunning Lethemancer -- I would say it's worse than Necrogen Mists because it doesn't make your opponent discard a card until your upkeep. It also dies to removal.
Trespasser il-Vec -- A damn sight better than Oona's Prowler, but we've got better options.
Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded -- Could... could it be? A deck that could actually run Tibalt? Probably not, lol. But worth keeping in mind.
Some other cards for consideration:
Rakdos Pit Dragon -- Super strong finisher.
Terminate -- One of the best removal spells in the game.
Dreadbore -- Not as strong as terminate, but much more versatile.
Blood Scrivener -- Good decks play good cards. Blood Scrivener is not a good card.
Any creature with unearth, but mainly Hellspark Elemental, Rotting Rats, and Scourge devil. Maybe Grixis Slavedriver since that card gives some pretty serious value, but it's 4 mana and in all likelihood we have better options.
Tombstalker -- Definitely worth running at least two.
On the color Green.
I think it's worth considering a green splash. We could get Fauna Shaman (but that's kinda bad) and Vengevine (also kinda bad), but most importantly, we get a massive Tarmagoyf and we potentially get Varolz, the Scar-Striped. We also get Ancient Grudge and Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard. It's worth considering. Of course, without green we can run Blood Moon in the board. Worth considering, though.
Lava Axe -- I hadn't even considered this card, but when I saw Tittliewinks22 mention it I realized it could be really strong. Worth considering.
I think you mean Lightning Axe, which is very strong because it usually kills goyf and could very well put a creature out.
Also, I would like to defend Gorgon Recluse because it trades with anything, survives bolt, and only costs 2 mana with madness, which also means it has psuedo flash.
As for switching to green, I honestly think our biggest benefit would be Lotleth Troll because it fill the 2 drop that we desperately need as a free discard effect, not to mention that it permanently pumps itself, too. I would consider even a splash of green for it to be perfectly honest.
Question - so when Madness says discard, it actually means exile correct? Doesn't make sense to say "discard this card instead of putting it into your graveyard".
I also read that madness is at instant speed, does that mean madness creatures get flash or that you can only discard them at instant speed but have to cast them and sorceries as normal?
Example of how Madness works: I cast Raven's Crime on myself, discarding Reckless Wurm. I can then choose to pay 2R to cast Reckless Wurm, instead of putting it into the graveyard.
Net result: I spend 2BR and a Raven's Crime to get the Wurm into play.
Example of how Madness works: I cast Raven's Crime on myself, discarding Reckless Wurm. I can then choose to pay 2R to cast Reckless Wurm, instead of putting it into the graveyard.
Net result: I spend 2BR and a Raven's Crime to get the Wurm into play.
Ah ok, but can you cast creatures and sorceries at instant speed too with madness? IE - someone +1s Liliana of the Veil then you discard Reckless Wurm and get to cast it on their turn?
So a card like Lotleth Troll would work well with Madness as you would not have to worry about graveyard hate and the creatures still hit the field in addition to your +1 counters on the troll?
Here are cards with Madness specifically:
http://magiccards.info/query?q=f%3Amodern+o%3Amadness&v=card&s=cname
Two creatures that I feel would be fairly obvious are Reckless Wurm (which is of course homage to Arrogant Wurm) and Gorgon Recluse. Both are strong creatures for their madness cost, but are fairly expensive otherwise. Non-Creatures give us Fiery Temper and Dark Withering for some cheap and decent removal. Big Game Hunter I feel should also get a mention.
Ways of activating madness should not be ignored, either. In fact, that's probably more important that the madness itself. Lightning Axe seems like a decent thought if we want to discard cards, Oona's Prowler and Trespasser il-Vec give us free and immediate sources of discard with naturally high attack power, while Mad Prophet and Rummaging Goblin ultimately give us card advantage.
There are also non-instant discards like Liliana of the Veil and Cunning Lethemancer that serve a dual purpose of hitting your opponent as well. Chandra Ablaze, while expensive certainly isn't terrible either.
We could include things like Small Pox or Wild Guess, but the point of Madness is it's cheaper and potentially instant speed.
While it's not madness, I will also give a special shout out to Demigod of Revenge for obvious reasons. It also makes Chandra better, though she still is probably too expensive.
Could a deck like this be viable even if it's just at FNM? How would you build it?
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
1 Ghitu Encampment
2 Lavaclaw Reaches
3 Marsh Flats
2 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Blood Scrivener
3 Brain Gorgers
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Reckless Wurm
3 Stormblood Berserker
3 Tombstalker
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lightning Axe
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Reforge the Soul
2 Terminate
The deck is far from perfect but its been fish bowling pretty decently.
Blood Scrivener, Gathan raiders capitalize on the many times this deck has no hand.
I feel there needs to be a 2nd discard outlet other than Oona's Prowler at the 2CMC range, but there is nothing that efficient in modern right now.
I really like Gathan Raiders, too. That's a wonderful card I hadn't thought about. I really think Demigod of Revenge needs to be in this deck now, especially with that.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
It just doesn't work.
You kidding right? Madness is powerful. You just got to build it right. What about global discard? So both players are affected?
Posted from MTGsalvation.com App for Android
U Merfolk | GR Tron | WUR Jeskai Control | WBG Abzan Company
EDH:
G Ezuri, Renegade Leader, Fighting for Rivendell
WU Brago, King Eternal, Long Live the King
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon, Worship the Dragon
I think this is the way to go, gaining advantage while crippling your opponent's hand seems pretty good. Some cards to consider:
Rix maadi, dungeon palace (it only takes a land slot so including x1 is almost free)
rotting rats (i really like that you get value for discarding them as well)
necrogen mists (this could be a problem for control decks, also doesn't die from conventional removal so it is better than lethemancer)
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Liliana of the veil is definitely a 3 or 4 of in here. A. It's a consistent discard outlet that requires no mana, and B. it also helps rip your opponents hand apart while still being good on its own.
I wouldn't play gorgon recluse myself. for 2 mana, you can just as easily play a keldon marauders which is a 3/3 and while it only lasts two turns, will probably last about as long in this environment. The grave scrabbler idea does have merit.
Honestly, you'll want to take a look at it as a deck that generates advantage from the graveyard and lack of cards in hand rather than a quick aggro deck, as this format does not have the cheap enablers legacy has. However, red and black both share a number of mechanics that could be good in such a strategy. Unearth has been touched on, but there is also flashback, hellbent, and retrace and each has some good cards in it that would be synergistic with such a strategy. As an example, I know it doesn't have hellbent exactly keyworded (though it should) blood scrivener is one such guy that would do well in this sort of strategy and it was touched on by another person further above. Maybe look at it as a sort of board control deck that also empties their hands in a hurry?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
On the works:
Leyline Deck Wins:symbu:Null 'n Void:symbu:
Decks built:
:symg::symb::symr::symw::symu:ChangelingsUWRBG
:symru:16 land Ignite Memories Combo:symru:
:symbu:Hunted Singularity:symbu:
That said, let's take a look at some madness cards.
Here's some enablers:
Some other cards for consideration:
On the color Green.
I think it's worth considering a green splash. We could get Fauna Shaman (but that's kinda bad) and Vengevine (also kinda bad), but most importantly, we get a massive Tarmagoyf and we potentially get Varolz, the Scar-Striped. We also get Ancient Grudge and Maelstrom Pulse in the sideboard. It's worth considering. Of course, without green we can run Blood Moon in the board. Worth considering, though.
Also, I would like to defend Gorgon Recluse because it trades with anything, survives bolt, and only costs 2 mana with madness, which also means it has psuedo flash.
As for switching to green, I honestly think our biggest benefit would be Lotleth Troll because it fill the 2 drop that we desperately need as a free discard effect, not to mention that it permanently pumps itself, too. I would consider even a splash of green for it to be perfectly honest.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
I also read that madness is at instant speed, does that mean madness creatures get flash or that you can only discard them at instant speed but have to cast them and sorceries as normal?
Example of how Madness works: I cast Raven's Crime on myself, discarding Reckless Wurm. I can then choose to pay 2R to cast Reckless Wurm, instead of putting it into the graveyard.
Net result: I spend 2BR and a Raven's Crime to get the Wurm into play.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Ah ok, but can you cast creatures and sorceries at instant speed too with madness? IE - someone +1s Liliana of the Veil then you discard Reckless Wurm and get to cast it on their turn?
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.