Also, he's a 4cmc needing 6 mana if you want to enjoy his regeneration as soon as you drop him. Don't get me wrong, I like the card, it sure has things it can do, but I'm more inclined to not use him.
Sure, but with Korlash you can choose to let him die and still only pay 4 mana or pay the extra if you have it, an option you do not have with other 4cmc creatures. I get that without additional $$ spent on the mana base that you would not want to run Korlash, and I agree with that, but the fact that you can regenerate him is not a downside.
The warchief I wouldn't consider, since most of the zombies I use don't have a colorless component and, by the time I can play him, it's not really relevant anymore.
I think it really depends on your meta and your playstyle. I like that deathtouch acts as either removal or evasion, even though it gives the decision to the opponent (a situation I generally avoid). I see Lord of the Undead being better in a creature card light, sac heavy and/or discard heavy version of the Zombie deck, and that deck should be built for the longer game. A Death Baron Zombie deck is more aggressive (though I would not call it an aggro deck precisly) and combat heavy, using removal largely to allow beats through.
This is the fun thing about zombies, so many options. You can swap out a leg ... er, I mean, spell or color and still have something viable and fun ( unless you replace the legs with shoulders ... that won't work at all ).
I agree there are a lot of options, but not that the Lords can be switched out willy-nilly. What I think needs to happen is for someone to write up a good [Primer], that has a section for each lord and what the deck built arount it should look like- perhaps even a 20-30 card skeleton or perhaps some must runs for each as well. The [Primer] should also have a section that talks about how many lords to run (I say 4-6) and what lords work together (Reaper and LotU seem the most ideal). Having a toolbox full of Lords means that the rest of your deck is less focused on maximizing their strengths, and the result is a weaker deck. I think the decks should start with a decision of what Lord your deck is going to be built on, and then if you want to add a couple more add them as utility creatures. Additionally the [Primer] should have a section for multi-color choices as well as the usual card evaluations.
I would be willing to put something like this together, but I just got here and do not want to step on anyone's toes who has been testing since way back. Otherwise I could just write up a portion and submit it so that this was an actual [Primer]. Deadneck has not posted in a month, and has not added to this thread since February, so I think if folks are interested in something more comprehenesive we will need to make it ourselves and have the threads merged.
On a side note:
One of the happy side effects of running Death Baron is that it gives me another good sac outlet that is also pumped by my Lord- Reassembling Skeleton (which always makes me think of interrupting cow). It gives me some of the functionality of LotU, plus I get deathtouch, and who knows what other sets will give us in the way of Skeletons.
I tweaked my build and ditched Phyrexian Crusader (well moved it to SB for now, but it may go entirely). It was just not doing anything for me other than being a blocker, and I am having best results being very aggressive. I added in 2x Geralf's Messenger and 2x Cemetery Reaper in their place, with the understanding that Reaper is a util. card, not acting as a lord for purposes of deck balance.
One card that has definitely proved to be great in my build is Fleshbag Marauder, though against aggro it is a lump. All I need now is a good aggro hoser to side in for that match but I have not found the perfect solution.
I have seen some players (admittedly ones miles ahead of their opponents) playing Standard UB Zombies with some minor changes (throw in IoK, maybe Sign in Blood) and do really well locally. Yes, FNM is not a GP, but our local FNM contains some of the best non-pros I know, some of who I expect to go pro sometime soon, and it is a really good format for testing your deck and yourself.
Standard Zombies is resilient and fast. The only major problem is Path to Exile, and the fact that discard being predominant. There's the ability to use IoK, Thoughtseize, and Duress in here to ensure a good game against combo, control, and kill off our weaknesses.
I also like Pod in my Standard buil, and I'n going to check out working it into Modern. There are some ultra degenerate things that I'm sure you're all aware of, and some you may not (Undying Evil on a Perilous Myr into Messenger is a bit unfair).
EDIT: Screw your rules; shoulders replace all the appendages!
EDIT 2: So I just bought 4 promo Maelstrom Pulses. I'll take a look at a Golgari build and find some Lands. What have I done? :'(
In my experience, I've found shoving Geralf's Messenger into Birthing Pod to search for Restoration Angel blinking Geralf's M (so you can search for another Angel the next turn) is pretty oppressive. Phyrexian Metamorph copying Restoration Angel can be used to continue the Angel chain. (Seriously, get a Geralf's M out and churn out 4 Angels and that's 18 life loss (over probably 5 turns) from the Angel chain alone. Hit them with an Angel once and they're done.)
There was also processing Gravecrawler into Pod to get Tidehollow Sculler, recur Gravecrawler. This is a pretty good way to shred hands.
Of course, these options necessitate a white splash. You can't do as many fun things in UB.
My general focus is to make sure they have no creatures while i have big ones, I know with korlash its hard to run white splash because you want to keep searching for swamps, however, i am open to ideas as i don't know a whole lot of cards in the modern format
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My general focus is to make sure they have no creatures while i have big ones, I know with korlash its hard to run white splash because you want to keep searching for swamps, however, i am open to ideas as i don't know a whole lot of cards in the modern format
I've actually played with Festering Goblin and he doesn't play well with fellow zombies that are at 1 toughness. I would try another one drop zombie if you can.
As for the mana base, I'm guessing you're on a bit of a budget, but if you can I would trade out the 2 Plains for 2 Godless Shrines. Nothing like not being able to cast your Messenger on time can be more frustrating. You're also a bit short on lands, as reaching 4 mana on turn 4 is less than 50%.
Also, even in my list, you forgot about the existence of Tidehollow Sculler, which will help shred hands for keeping your pressure from getting wiped. Also since you already have white, why not put in Lingering Souls? Added sword carriers and added pressure and added blockers.
My general focus is to make sure they have no creatures while i have big ones, I know with korlash its hard to run white splash because you want to keep searching for swamps, however, i am open to ideas as i don't know a whole lot of cards in the modern format
If the only reason you need white is for PtE, then just run a mana base that looks like this:
Every land that will stay in play is a swamp, and if you are smart about it you do not always have to fetch Shrine when you need it to come in to play untapped. From there you can add your Cavern of Souls and an Urborg or two if you want, but colorwise you will be perfectly fine. Check out my mana base, which only runs 3 shocks and has never led to color screw on my part.
I will say that I really do not like Stillmoon Cavalier in this deck as keeping it dangerous requires a mana infusion each turn, and I would rather use that mana for dropping more creatures as it applies much more pressure.
I don't think you are using your slots well, though. Festering Goblin is just not going to cut it- Heck, I would rather run Skirk Ridge Exhumer, and I am not sold on that. You really do not need the swords, and you are running much too few lands. I would say 22 is bare minimum, and 23 will be better (24 if you insist on running Cavalier). This deck is surprisingly mana hungry when you are racing to get out a lord or Korlash out fast as well as following it up with pressure.
With your suggestions this is what ive come up with, my only concern is the fact of how much dmg i'm dealing to myself, with 3 thoughtseize, 4 sign in blood, and 4 marsh flats, thats 18 dmg to myself in total. Even though sign in blood can do other nice and fun things i will still use it on myself. Thats why i came up with sword of light and shadow, because it gains me life and brings back my creatures, i guess its always a good side board addition.
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Honestly, 4 Shrines are not needed. The Isolated Chapels are nice in the deck because chances are they will come in untapped whenever you play them. Two max, because like you've noticed, you're hurting yourself quite a bit so the Shrines will shock you turns 1 through 4 and a playset will mean one will always be ready. That's why you run Flats, to make sure you always have what you need when you need it.
With your suggestions this is what ive come up with, my only concern is the fact of how much dmg i'm dealing to myself, with 3 thoughtseize, 4 sign in blood, and 4 marsh flats, thats 18 dmg to myself in total. Even though sign in blood can do other nice and fun things i will still use it on myself. Thats why i came up with sword of light and shadow, because it gains me life and brings back my creatures, i guess its always a good side board addition.
Well, as I said I only run Watery Graves and I have not had a problem. Also, you could switch back to Inquisition of Kozilek, as it really is nearly as good- heck, I don't run either. I think you might want to take a look at whether Mutavault slows down your shrine dropping too much, when you test. You are running a LOT of non-Swamps, and it seems like it will mess things up.
Honestly, 4 Shrines are not needed. The Isolated Chapels are nice in the deck because chances are they will come in untapped whenever you play them. Two max, because like you've noticed, you're hurting yourself quite a bit so the Shrines will shock you turns 1 through 4 and a playset will mean one will always be ready. That's why you run Flats, to make sure you always have what you need when you need it.
When you are running Korlash you want two things: 1) To have 4 lands in play by turn 4, and 2) for all of those to be Swamps. Running Chapel really messes that up. The damage is very little, as you should only need to fetch one Shockland for as small a splash as he is running. After that he can fetch swamps. Also, there are plenty of times that you do not have a one-drop turn one, but you are holding a shockland, or you are about to put your third land down and all you are holding are two-drops. It is not nearly that big an issue in this deck.
I honestly forgot about Korlash in my second post, but he is running 2 Urborg. I feel like a full playset of Shrine is a bit much as there are plenty of decks in this format that are faster than what his deck is, so with much of the lifeloss happening, it will hurt him more than help him. He can still fetch that one shock and fetch for basics afterwards as well, but with your method he will, more often than not, draw into a Shrine and have to play it and pay 2. Maybe a 3-1 split Shrine or 2-2.
I, too, am curious if Mutavault is really needed here or not.
Actually you run 7, the 4 Marsh Flats grab Grave for you as well. With that said, Franx can probably just run the 3 Shrines and 4 Marsh Flats. That will give him 11 sources of white with only 4 of them being genereic sources(CoS).
Actually you run 7, the 4 Marsh Flats grab Grave for you as well. With that said, Franx can probably just run the 3 Shrines and 4 Marsh Flats. That will give him 11 sources of white with only 4 of them being genereic sources(CoS).
I run no white cards, so I have zero sources of white mana.
well mutavault works really well with any sort of tribal deck. With zombies, i use mutavault for 3 big reasons, one, if i don't have a zombie in play and i have a gravecrawler in the graveyard i can animate the vault and replay my crawler. Second reason, with death baron, mutavault gets pumped twice, one for being a zombie, and 2 for being a skeleton. With a death baron in play mutavault becomes a 4/4 with deathtouch. The third reason, is just another creature.
So far i have tested this deck on Magic Work Station, and i am 9-1 atm. Its very efficient in terms of clearing the board of creatures, and keeping the opponent down and in check. My only issue i have found is no artifact or enchanment kill mainboard, but to be perfectly honest i don't really need it, thats what sideboard is for
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I know you run no white spells. You did list Marsh Flats in your build on the last page
I run 3 Watery Grave, and 4 Marsh Flats. Thus I run 3 land cards that could tap for blue, and 4 land cards that can fetch any other card in my deck. Thus, I run 3 blue sources. Many of the games I play I take a maximum of 3 damage from lands without slowing me down, as I can play shocks and fetches are the right times and I have a decent curve.
Second reason, with death baron, mutavault gets pumped twice, one for being a zombie, and 2 for being a skeleton. With a death baron in play mutavault becomes a 4/4 with deathtouch. The third reason, is just another creature.
The other reasons seem like grasping to me, but I did not think about this one (and I run 4 Skeletons) and it is more than enough reason to run a few. You should definitely run it, but it would be more reasons not to include many other non-swamps in your deck.
Second reason, with death baron, mutavault gets pumped twice, one for being a zombie, and 2 for being a skeleton. With a death baron in play mutavault becomes a 4/4 with deathtouch.
Not a Zombies player, but just wanted to pop in and say that this is wrong. Death Baron still only pumps creatures with both subtypes +1/+1. If it had two lines of text (something like the SHM/EVE Lieges), then it would get +2/+2, but that's not the case here.
I run 3 Watery Grave, and 4 Marsh Flats. Thus I run 3 land cards that could tap for blue, and 4 land cards that can fetch any other card in my deck. Thus, I run 3 blue sources. Many of the games I play I take a maximum of 3 damage from lands without slowing me down, as I can play shocks and fetches are the right times and I have a decent curve.[/b]
The other reasons seem like grasping to me, but I did not think about this one (and I run 4 Skeletons) and it is more than enough reason to run a few. You should definitely run it, but it would be more reasons not to include many other non-swamps in your deck.
While you only have 3 sources of lands that actually tap for U, you do have 4 more that can actually search for that U, so essentially, you have 7 sources of U.
While you only have 3 sources of lands that actually tap for U, you do have 4 more that can actually search for that U, so essentially, you have 7 sources of U.
no, because if I had a spell that cost UUUUU I could not cast it. I have 3 mana sources that produce blue mana.
Not a Zombies player, but just wanted to pop in and say that this is wrong. Death Baron still only pumps creatures with both subtypes +1/+1. If it had two lines of text (something like the SHM/EVE Lieges), then it would get +2/+2, but that's not the case here.
Can you point to a ruling, because it says on Death Baron that if the creature is both a zombie and a skeleton it gets the bonus twice, and Mutavault is "all" creature types till the end of turn (so it is a Zombie Skeleton Ally Ooze, among other things), not "any" creature type (denoting that you make a choice). That seems to point to the fact that it would get the bonus twice, but if there is an area in the comp. rules that illuminates this I would like to know.
I have really liked Bone Splinters in a deck like this, so far, and I have used Nameless Inversion to great effect in the past.
That is why I cut in as well.
I think it really depends on your meta and your playstyle. I like that deathtouch acts as either removal or evasion, even though it gives the decision to the opponent (a situation I generally avoid). I see Lord of the Undead being better in a creature card light, sac heavy and/or discard heavy version of the Zombie deck, and that deck should be built for the longer game. A Death Baron Zombie deck is more aggressive (though I would not call it an aggro deck precisly) and combat heavy, using removal largely to allow beats through.
I agree there are a lot of options, but not that the Lords can be switched out willy-nilly. What I think needs to happen is for someone to write up a good [Primer], that has a section for each lord and what the deck built arount it should look like- perhaps even a 20-30 card skeleton or perhaps some must runs for each as well. The [Primer] should also have a section that talks about how many lords to run (I say 4-6) and what lords work together (Reaper and LotU seem the most ideal). Having a toolbox full of Lords means that the rest of your deck is less focused on maximizing their strengths, and the result is a weaker deck. I think the decks should start with a decision of what Lord your deck is going to be built on, and then if you want to add a couple more add them as utility creatures. Additionally the [Primer] should have a section for multi-color choices as well as the usual card evaluations.
I would be willing to put something like this together, but I just got here and do not want to step on anyone's toes who has been testing since way back. Otherwise I could just write up a portion and submit it so that this was an actual [Primer]. Deadneck has not posted in a month, and has not added to this thread since February, so I think if folks are interested in something more comprehenesive we will need to make it ourselves and have the threads merged.
On a side note:
One of the happy side effects of running Death Baron is that it gives me another good sac outlet that is also pumped by my Lord- Reassembling Skeleton (which always makes me think of interrupting cow). It gives me some of the functionality of LotU, plus I get deathtouch, and who knows what other sets will give us in the way of Skeletons.
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One card that has definitely proved to be great in my build is Fleshbag Marauder, though against aggro it is a lump. All I need now is a good aggro hoser to side in for that match but I have not found the perfect solution.
4 Gravecrawler
4 Reassembling Skeleton
4 Death Baron
2 Cemetery Reaper
2 Geralf's Messenger
4 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
3 Fleshbag Marauder
4 Mask of Memory
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Countersquall
4 Bone Splinters
Land 23
14 Swamp
3 Watery Grave
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flats
3 Go for the Throats
4 Withered Wretch
4 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
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In my experience, I've found shoving Geralf's Messenger into Birthing Pod to search for Restoration Angel blinking Geralf's M (so you can search for another Angel the next turn) is pretty oppressive. Phyrexian Metamorph copying Restoration Angel can be used to continue the Angel chain. (Seriously, get a Geralf's M out and churn out 4 Angels and that's 18 life loss (over probably 5 turns) from the Angel chain alone. Hit them with an Angel once and they're done.)
There was also processing Gravecrawler into Pod to get Tidehollow Sculler, recur Gravecrawler. This is a pretty good way to shred hands.
Of course, these options necessitate a white splash. You can't do as many fun things in UB.
4x Gravecrawler
2x Cemetery Reaper
2x Geralf's Messenger
4x Festering Goblin
2x Stillmoon Cavalier
3x Fleshbag Marauder
2x Death Baron
4x Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Sword of Light and Shadow
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
2x Go for the Throat
3x Thoughtseize
4x Sign in Blood
2x Plains
3x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Isolated Chapel
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Marsh Flats
2x Mutavault
My general focus is to make sure they have no creatures while i have big ones, I know with korlash its hard to run white splash because you want to keep searching for swamps, however, i am open to ideas as i don't know a whole lot of cards in the modern format
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
I've actually played with Festering Goblin and he doesn't play well with fellow zombies that are at 1 toughness. I would try another one drop zombie if you can.
As for the mana base, I'm guessing you're on a bit of a budget, but if you can I would trade out the 2 Plains for 2 Godless Shrines. Nothing like not being able to cast your Messenger on time can be more frustrating. You're also a bit short on lands, as reaching 4 mana on turn 4 is less than 50%.
Also, even in my list, you forgot about the existence of Tidehollow Sculler, which will help shred hands for keeping your pressure from getting wiped. Also since you already have white, why not put in Lingering Souls? Added sword carriers and added pressure and added blockers.
If the only reason you need white is for PtE, then just run a mana base that looks like this:
4 Marsh Flats
16 Swamp
Every land that will stay in play is a swamp, and if you are smart about it you do not always have to fetch Shrine when you need it to come in to play untapped. From there you can add your Cavern of Souls and an Urborg or two if you want, but colorwise you will be perfectly fine. Check out my mana base, which only runs 3 shocks and has never led to color screw on my part.
I will say that I really do not like Stillmoon Cavalier in this deck as keeping it dangerous requires a mana infusion each turn, and I would rather use that mana for dropping more creatures as it applies much more pressure.
I don't think you are using your slots well, though. Festering Goblin is just not going to cut it- Heck, I would rather run Skirk Ridge Exhumer, and I am not sold on that. You really do not need the swords, and you are running much too few lands. I would say 22 is bare minimum, and 23 will be better (24 if you insist on running Cavalier). This deck is surprisingly mana hungry when you are racing to get out a lord or Korlash out fast as well as following it up with pressure.
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4x Gravecrawler
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Cemetery Reaper
2x Geralf's Messenger
2x Stillmoon Cavalier
3x Fleshbag Marauder
2x Death Baron
4x Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
2x Liliana of the Veil
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
2x Go for the Throat
3x Thoughtseize
4x Sign in Blood
Lands:
4x Godless Shrine
8x Swamp
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Marsh Flats
2x Mutavault
With your suggestions this is what ive come up with, my only concern is the fact of how much dmg i'm dealing to myself, with 3 thoughtseize, 4 sign in blood, and 4 marsh flats, thats 18 dmg to myself in total. Even though sign in blood can do other nice and fun things i will still use it on myself. Thats why i came up with sword of light and shadow, because it gains me life and brings back my creatures, i guess its always a good side board addition.
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
When you are running Korlash you want two things: 1) To have 4 lands in play by turn 4, and 2) for all of those to be Swamps. Running Chapel really messes that up. The damage is very little, as you should only need to fetch one Shockland for as small a splash as he is running. After that he can fetch swamps. Also, there are plenty of times that you do not have a one-drop turn one, but you are holding a shockland, or you are about to put your third land down and all you are holding are two-drops. It is not nearly that big an issue in this deck.
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I, too, am curious if Mutavault is really needed here or not.
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I know you run no white spells. You did list Marsh Flats in your build on the last page
So far i have tested this deck on Magic Work Station, and i am 9-1 atm. Its very efficient in terms of clearing the board of creatures, and keeping the opponent down and in check. My only issue i have found is no artifact or enchanment kill mainboard, but to be perfectly honest i don't really need it, thats what sideboard is for
Modern:
B 8Rack
RX Goblins
BG Elves (Attempting)
UBW Mill
G Stompy
UB Tezzerator
Legacy:
W Stax
The other reasons seem like grasping to me, but I did not think about this one (and I run 4 Skeletons) and it is more than enough reason to run a few. You should definitely run it, but it would be more reasons not to include many other non-swamps in your deck.
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Not a Zombies player, but just wanted to pop in and say that this is wrong. Death Baron still only pumps creatures with both subtypes +1/+1. If it had two lines of text (something like the SHM/EVE Lieges), then it would get +2/+2, but that's not the case here.
While you only have 3 sources of lands that actually tap for U, you do have 4 more that can actually search for that U, so essentially, you have 7 sources of U.
Can you point to a ruling, because it says on Death Baron that if the creature is both a zombie and a skeleton it gets the bonus twice, and Mutavault is "all" creature types till the end of turn (so it is a Zombie Skeleton Ally Ooze, among other things), not "any" creature type (denoting that you make a choice). That seems to point to the fact that it would get the bonus twice, but if there is an area in the comp. rules that illuminates this I would like to know.
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