Yeah, by the time I'm at 4 mana I'm swinging my whole board and using my mana on my second main phase to recur whatever died in combat, or I'm swinging for lethal, or I'm losing super badly and the game is out of reach anyway. I don't think that card does much for us
I can only agree with what's posted above. If you want a 4 mana spell, I've always liked the thought of the red God from theros. I believe it deals 3 damage every time a creature dies. I'm recalling this, but the effect is something similar. Minus dredge or delve cards, all of my other spells are 1 or 2 cmc
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Hey Creamy, I had a lot of fun with the deck list you gave me, but I am guessing that it is old at this point. What direction is popular now with the deck?
rotting rats is a fine 2 mana on color synergistic enabler guys. use it. rats ditch vine into one drop is a quite common t3 for bug. gives ca potentially and lets you restart gc chains
I'm reading a lot of this and just don't understand. My build is preforming awesome right now and I run 4 colors. If you could tell me thoughts on card choices I've made maybe I can explain my choices and help.
One card I'd like to add is Kolaghan's Command as it would be nice to have as a 1 or 2 of but I think it is just too high at 3cmc to run main so it might find a home in the board in place of a swan song.
I don't really get snap caster mage as our best cards are playable from the graveyard anyway and two mana to get something out of the yard and a 2/1 is a lot weaker than 2 mana for 2 2/1s and 2 4/3s with haste for instance. What are you flashing back that would be worth taking off a turn you could be filling your yard or flooding the board with crawlers and vengevines?
well firstly I prefer to choose what I put in the yard so snappy counts as a cast creature so really you are still only 3cmc to get your vines back. But if I'm flashing looting back for 3cmc why not get a body out of it? And for me after boarding he can be even more powerful with swan song/charm being the most relevant against some match ups. I've never felt I didn't have a useful target and a 2/1 that can actually block is nice sometimes as most my small guys can't.
So as far as value the fact you are almost surely 2 for 1 on your card advantage is amazing (that shouldn't need to be explained) so if I get a 2/1 and loot to put another vine into play and then cast a 1 drop I used 4cmc to net at least 3 creatures and dig 2 cards deep to set up next turn rather than looting for 3 and having a possible mana left that won't get me my second creature drop. Another scenario would be dropping him at opponents eot to cast salvage/thought scour both netting you card advantage and you were able to leave up abrupt decay/swan song/charm.
There can be arguments made either way but I feel he is too strong to not be in.
Thanks for that. I did realize faithless looting is the only other way to discard cards from your hand besides lotleth troll.
I've noticed everyone seems to have a slightly different take on the deck. Some recent lists here don't even have any dredgers. Seen some discussions on the inclusion of Flamewake Phoenix. I personally didn't include Bloodghasts in my initial builds as I felt like he was too low impact being a 2/1 and his landfall ability doesn't help Vengevine. How many cheap creatures is the minimum to make Vengevine a worthwhile card. How many removal spells to include.
Just some of my questions and thoughts on the deck thus far, feel free to share any opinions.
What they said about Faithless Looting. It is your best T1 play. This deck treats your graveyard like a bag of tricks, and there are certain cards that you want just in there and not in your hand. Therefore, there are many cases where Faithless Looting is like drawing 4 cards, two of which you get to soon cast for free. Words cannot express this power.
I hear what you are saying about Bloodghast, as I felt the exact same way for a long time. However the reality is that while this deck does a lot of explosive damage, its incremental damage adds up quickly too. It is just a 2/1, and it doesn't trigger VV, but it is great for both card advantage and tempo (playing from graveyard is like a 1-for-0, and it costs nothing to "cast"). And if you can get your opponent down to 10, land drops become terrifying. I cut them at one point and the deck suffered immensely as a result. I am reluctantly now playing only 3.
I also tried Flamewake Phoenix as a 2-of at one point, and didn't like it. You can trigger its Ferocious about 60% of the time, which is okay, but even then it's no more impactful than a Bloodghast, and you had to pay 1 and meet a condition to "cast" it. (And it still doesn't count for VV.) If I were to make a singleton version of the deck, it would 100% make the cut, but it's sub-competitive in modern.
Last, if you want cheap creatures for triggering Vengevine, look no further than Memnite. The deck posted at the top of this page is very good, Memnite being the best innovation. Consider this T1 hand: 2x Vengevine 1x Faithless Looting 2x Memnite with access to R. Yep, that's an 8-damage T1. While this sort of T1 is rare, Memnite does very often speed the deck up by a full turn.
How often is dropping Gravecrawler turn 1 the right call? How often do you hold it up to help trigger Vengevine that could theoretically enter the graveyard over the next several turns?
In Game 1, very seldom is it the right call, although it depends on the rest of your hand. I usually wait until T3 to "go off", so I can drop a Wayfinder, then a second creature, and see what happens. However since adding Memnite, I'm now often able to speed this up to T2.
However in G2, if I've discovered that I'm against some sort of control deck, I will drop a T1 Gravecrawler, as I'm happy for them to spend removal on it, and if they don't it will probably get in for at least 6. It's just really bad against decks that can consistently block on T2. I played against a Scapeshift opponent yesterday and early Crawlers were very powerful.
I'm reading a lot of this and just don't understand. My build is preforming awesome right now and I run 4 colors. If you could tell me thoughts on card choices I've made maybe I can explain my choices and help.
One card I'd like to add is Kolaghan's Command as it would be nice to have as a 1 or 2 of but I think it is just too high at 3cmc to run main so it might find a home in the board in place of a swan song.
I played with Snapcaster and didn't like it, but I'm glad you're having success with it. It certainly can be good in some cases (Snap-Looting is way better than 2R Looting Flashback for sure), I just found that it didn't have enough targets. That being said, you are running 15 I/S, which is nearly double the norm.
The one thing I think you are really missing out on is Skaab Ruinator. That card is just a huge beating. Other than SB counter support, it is the best reason to be in blue, IMO. I played BUG for a month or two and it's the only card I miss. (Well, I miss Hedron Crab too, but it was just a fragile faithless looting.)
The other thing I would suggest is to consider switching your Swan Songs to Stubborn Denial. Most of your opponents' grave-hate is going to come out aggressively, so it doesn't even need Ferocious as Force Spiking them is often enough. But then of course beyond that, you have 11 relible Ferocious enablers. Swan Song basically gains them 4 life, and it doesn't get you out of a jam very well if you're behind. Stubborn Denial is miserable late game with a weak board, but there's not much that saves this deck at that point anyways.
I've thought about 1 skaab over an angler for quite awhile just haven't pulled the trigger. Usually I bring in legions with the swan songs but you might be right I should test the denials and maybe free up spots in the board for other things.
Hedron crab I've always just hated because you don't net anything really out of it. That's the same reason I had cut dredge long ago.
hedron crab is insanely good. they can often mill 20 cards a game for one mana. ive had games where i milled myself out almost. pretty hard to do that otherwise.
if you play blue its for crab. and yes play one skaab ruinator md. card is nuts in board stalls or to restart gc chains
Crab is super fragile though. Ultimately my BUG vs Jund decision came down to Faithless Looting vs. Hedron Crab, and even though the Crab's ceiling is higher, Looting is just waaaaaaaaay more consistent, and having the cards go through your hand first is obviously a far superior effect.
KTROJAN - Dredge is worth a light nod too. GGTs are terrible, but a small Imp/Thug infusion has served me well after months spend in the F-Dredge camp.
Well in the last 3 matches I've hated Skaab as I feared. It does to more removal than angler (mainly abrupt decay), harder on mana, and there aren't always great options for creatures to exile where as angler can just hit my lands/spells. I just feel like with my spells I already am a little more random than I'd like in my hand so that's why I want to stay away from any more self mill. I could maybe try 1 dredge guy in Skaabs spot (likely thug to work with Snapcaster/troll)
The combination of Hedron Crabs/Fetch Lands and Magus of the Bazaar/Dredge cards gives me a good shot of getting 30+ cards in my graveyard by turn 4 in my BUGVine list. It's not nearly as consistent as Jundvine but if you're willing to just let it all hang out you can do some really crazy things with BUGVine.
I'm preferring the little slower controlish route. I've switched to the 3 denials main and trying to get in my damage about 2 turns later and it's been working very nicely. It plays a bit like the grixis control (obviously not to the extent on the control side but better on the beat down side).
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While it seems fun, it's definitely too slow and win-more. This card does nothing when you're behind.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
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for a bug build check my de deck. upgraded version switches trackers for another cut or http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-bug-dredgevine#online
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Bloodghast
4 Gravecrawler
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Lotleth Troll
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vengevine
Instant (11)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Thought Scour
Sorcery (4)
4 Faithless Looting
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Mutavault
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Golgari Charm
2 Jund Charm
2 Legion Loyalist
3 Swan Song
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
One card I'd like to add is Kolaghan's Command as it would be nice to have as a 1 or 2 of but I think it is just too high at 3cmc to run main so it might find a home in the board in place of a swan song.
So as far as value the fact you are almost surely 2 for 1 on your card advantage is amazing (that shouldn't need to be explained) so if I get a 2/1 and loot to put another vine into play and then cast a 1 drop I used 4cmc to net at least 3 creatures and dig 2 cards deep to set up next turn rather than looting for 3 and having a possible mana left that won't get me my second creature drop. Another scenario would be dropping him at opponents eot to cast salvage/thought scour both netting you card advantage and you were able to leave up abrupt decay/swan song/charm.
There can be arguments made either way but I feel he is too strong to not be in.
What they said about Faithless Looting. It is your best T1 play. This deck treats your graveyard like a bag of tricks, and there are certain cards that you want just in there and not in your hand. Therefore, there are many cases where Faithless Looting is like drawing 4 cards, two of which you get to soon cast for free. Words cannot express this power.
I hear what you are saying about Bloodghast, as I felt the exact same way for a long time. However the reality is that while this deck does a lot of explosive damage, its incremental damage adds up quickly too. It is just a 2/1, and it doesn't trigger VV, but it is great for both card advantage and tempo (playing from graveyard is like a 1-for-0, and it costs nothing to "cast"). And if you can get your opponent down to 10, land drops become terrifying. I cut them at one point and the deck suffered immensely as a result. I am reluctantly now playing only 3.
I also tried Flamewake Phoenix as a 2-of at one point, and didn't like it. You can trigger its Ferocious about 60% of the time, which is okay, but even then it's no more impactful than a Bloodghast, and you had to pay 1 and meet a condition to "cast" it. (And it still doesn't count for VV.) If I were to make a singleton version of the deck, it would 100% make the cut, but it's sub-competitive in modern.
Last, if you want cheap creatures for triggering Vengevine, look no further than Memnite. The deck posted at the top of this page is very good, Memnite being the best innovation. Consider this T1 hand: 2x Vengevine 1x Faithless Looting 2x Memnite with access to R. Yep, that's an 8-damage T1. While this sort of T1 is rare, Memnite does very often speed the deck up by a full turn.
In Game 1, very seldom is it the right call, although it depends on the rest of your hand. I usually wait until T3 to "go off", so I can drop a Wayfinder, then a second creature, and see what happens. However since adding Memnite, I'm now often able to speed this up to T2.
However in G2, if I've discovered that I'm against some sort of control deck, I will drop a T1 Gravecrawler, as I'm happy for them to spend removal on it, and if they don't it will probably get in for at least 6. It's just really bad against decks that can consistently block on T2. I played against a Scapeshift opponent yesterday and early Crawlers were very powerful.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
I played with Snapcaster and didn't like it, but I'm glad you're having success with it. It certainly can be good in some cases (Snap-Looting is way better than 2R Looting Flashback for sure), I just found that it didn't have enough targets. That being said, you are running 15 I/S, which is nearly double the norm.
The one thing I think you are really missing out on is Skaab Ruinator. That card is just a huge beating. Other than SB counter support, it is the best reason to be in blue, IMO. I played BUG for a month or two and it's the only card I miss. (Well, I miss Hedron Crab too, but it was just a fragile faithless looting.)
The other thing I would suggest is to consider switching your Swan Songs to Stubborn Denial. Most of your opponents' grave-hate is going to come out aggressively, so it doesn't even need Ferocious as Force Spiking them is often enough. But then of course beyond that, you have 11 relible Ferocious enablers. Swan Song basically gains them 4 life, and it doesn't get you out of a jam very well if you're behind. Stubborn Denial is miserable late game with a weak board, but there's not much that saves this deck at that point anyways.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Hedron crab I've always just hated because you don't net anything really out of it. That's the same reason I had cut dredge long ago.
Thanks for the feedback I'll try it out!
if you play blue its for crab. and yes play one skaab ruinator md. card is nuts in board stalls or to restart gc chains
KTROJAN - Dredge is worth a light nod too. GGTs are terrible, but a small Imp/Thug infusion has served me well after months spend in the F-Dredge camp.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Also has anyone tried rise // fall or maybe the new day's undying
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Anyone still using magus of the bazaar?
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