This list is following my discontent with Varolz/Death's Shadow, which I didn't get online enough anymore. Thanks to the 6 freed up slots I could add more interaction such as Kolaghan's Command and Scavenging Ooze, which are simply good cards and also work well with this deck. Without Varolz, I have slightly less blowouts, but the chance that I myself become blown out is less as well. I need to have a closer look at my sideboard, but so far I think this list runs smoothly. Despite the lack of dredge I have absolutely no problems getting Vengevine online.
Interesting. I like the Lavamancer idea a lot, and I also like decreasing reliance on an easily-answered two-card combo. I don't like losing Death's Shadow, as there are matchups where it's the best card in the deck, and if I'm keeping them, I do want the option to have Varolz too. Varolz is also useful with other creatures as a strict value engine, and this deck gains a lot of resiliency by having a sac outlet. I'm playing in a PPTQ tomorrow, and I'm going to lean gently in your direction by cutting one Varolz for a one-of Lavamancer. I can see a case for a second in the board too, though I don't think I'm going to try it yet. The thing I don't like about Lavamancer in the main is that one of the G1 strengths of our deck is that every creature besides Birds blanks most common removal outside Path, and giving them another target loses some of that meta advantage. However there are times when it is going to be terrific too. If bad, can always side out.
Our decks differ a lot in the sideboard. Not sure I like Spellskite (we're already strong vs. removal,) or Fulminator (although Tron is a biiiiish...), and I definitely don't think Blood Moon fits in a 20-card deck. I like Duress and Electrickery though (1 Golgari Charm 1 Eleck seems like good options vs. Lingering Souls and Sisters), and although I prefer Gnaw to the Bone to the Warden, maybe it's decent to sub one in over a weirder card in my board like Big Game Hunter.
Overall I like the direction you're taking with the deck a lot, and will continue to tinker with your suggestions.
Quote from FuneralofGod » »
What is the consensus on count for Wayfinder? I've seen lists run 2 to 4 to none.
FOUR.
Someday we'll get a black 1-drop that mills too, and that will be a good day.
Ack, I brought our deck great shame today, going 1-3 at a PPTQ. I say great shame because it should have been 3-1 - the guidance in this thread is producing a good deck, but my piloting skills are still my own to improve. (I had a terrible G3 loss to burn where I whiffed on a T1 Duress, allowing them to resolve a T2 Eidolon, and I had an IoK I could have used instead. - brainfart / And I somehow managed to lose to UWr Control, which has been as free a win as they come in the past. Other loss was Affinity, god hands are god hands, and win was against one of the better players in my area on Grixis Control, which he was admittedly new to.)
I got to cast Lavamancer twice, and it felt wonderful both times, putting my opponent under immediate pressure and forcing them to use the bolt that was otherwise stuck in their hand with only bad targets. It would be meta-dependent, but I think it might be more of a sideboard card, as part of our strength comes from blanking their removal. Looks awesome in G2 once the Dismembers and Abrupt Decays come out, but then you barely get the upside, and the sideboard is already bursting at the seams. Not sure what direction to go with this.
Quote from pizzap » »
The Duress is on purpose over Thoughtseize. If I want to discard something, it will always be spells, Splinter Twin in particular. Duress is painless, so you will survive Twin's tempo game. Life total actually often matters.
I agree with this in principle, and I wound up going with a 1-1-1 package of Duress-IoK-Thoughtseize, to give me a nice mix with 2 good for burn, 2 good for tron, and 2 good for midrange. (And 3 good vs. combo.) Inquisition is the best of the 3 if you have any confidence that Tron isn't in the room.
Quote from pizzap » »
Currently I also like four, but Satyr is competing with Grisly Salvage. In the Treasure Cruise meta I liked Salvage more, because you can play it around counterspells (Salvage end of turn while opponent cracks a fetch). Also Salvage can pick up a Tasigur, so actually you can Salvage the Tas, and the rest of the Salvage (Salvage + the other 4 cards) delves for 5. So, it would depend on the deck. That said, now I like Satyr more, because in this fast meta I like my chump blockers more than before.
I find that no one seems to know that they should be countering Satyr Wayfinder. If the deck ever really makes it, I think a new challenge that will arise is resolving Wayfinders, because they are by far the most reliable way to get a vine out on 3. It's not rare for its mill to generate a BG or VV, and lead to either the 3rd land or second creature spell required for either of them. It's like the Summer Bloom to Amulet of Vigor. Right now I love it over Salvage, but you're right, if people start realizing they should counter it, its speed becomes a huge liability.
New jace seems super interesting in dredgevine. Flashing back decay/salvage/cut, Jace acts as a creature to trigger vines, he will be super easy to activate.
The deck needed a marginally better Merfolk Looter as another discard outlet. Also, it was really looking for a way to get value out of milled instants/sorceries - the main problem with Snapcaster Mage in the deck was that it required additional mana on the same turn, but you'd often want to tap out to play it as your second creature for Vengevine.
Somehow Jace fills both of those roles. Having 0 power, not having flash, and not being able to 'flashback' a spell on the same turn are pretty huge cons, but they're less relevant for this deck than for other blue decks. It's too bad his +1 and ult are probably totally useless in any deck though.
But I hate to find multiple dredgecards in my openinghand without finding a discard outlet or vice versa. Also this deck is really, really vulnerable to gy hate. Now I'm think of going back to the Varolz/Death's Shadow combo but adding Vexing Devils as an additional scavenge target and also a nice 1 mana creature to trigger the vengevines. Has anyone tried this out yet?
Many pages back there was some interest in Vexing Devil. I believe it was found to generally be a bust, but I can see a build for it. I'm starting to think crazy thoughts about getting rid of Gravecrawlers and maybe going down to 3 Lotleths. Devil seems like a decent test subject in there.
I played Dredgevine at the GP this weekend and narrowly missed day 2 by going 6-2-1. I had a few misplays as well, so I'm entirely confident that if I'd played differently in a few situations I could have made it.
I'll post a list and report later, but for those wondering I've been playing the Jund version of the deck and found it vastly superior to the BUG version I tested initially.
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Modern: Dredgevine UBRG . Affinity 0 . Grixis Control UBR
Thanks for this thread guys, I've been playing Standard for about a year and this deck was my buy in to modern after gold fishing with it a bunch on tappedout and really liking the different lines of play that are available. Playing the Jund version with no GGT, and full sets of bloodghasts, grave crawlers, lotleth trolls, bops, and the Varolz death shadow combo. Have a quick question about dark blast though, what is it about this card that is good exactly? Is it just that it's a dredge enabler that can kill a one toughness creature or is there some trick with dredge that makes it a more versatile card than it seems?
Ah I didn't realize that about the upkeep dredge trick. There's a lot of pod less pod in my local meta so 2 mana kill a 2/2 put 6 in your graveyard is definitely better than I initially gave it credit for.
I played Dredgevine at the GP this weekend and narrowly missed day 2 by going 6-2-1. I had a few misplays as well, so I'm entirely confident that if I'd played differently in a few situations I could have made it.
I'll post a list and report later, but for those wondering I've been playing the Jund version of the deck and found it vastly superior to the BUG version I tested initially.
Congrats - very interested in hearing about it! Misplays are backbreaking in this deck :/
I've tried Legion Loyalist which is similar-ish and ended up cutting it because it was underwhelming. The thing that has kept me from trying Goblin Bushwhacker is its essential RR cost. If your manabase can support him, he can end games quickly if you manage to get a lot of your Bloodghast and Gravecrawler into play. He's explosive but becomes a lot worse in matchups where your opponents have lots of removal.
G1: I crushed him with an early T3 Vengevine activation and he really didn't get anything going in time to stop the clock
G2: We both played obnoxiously slow, he was able to tempo it out until I misplayed when we went to turns and instead of flashing back faithless looting to just draw two cards, I dredged 10 and ended up decking myself in turn 4. He was at 3 life for the longest time and I couldn't get past a snapcaster mage with Splinter twin attached that he would use to flashback electrolyze or cryptic command to kill or tap the bloodghasts I was recurring.
G3: We never got to play G3 and we entered the draw bracket immediately...yay!
Round 2: GW Modern Death and Taxes Brew 2-0; 1-0-1
G1: He gets out a Leonin Arbiter on turn two, but luckily I had all the land I needed after a T1 Faithless, I was able to recur Vengevine T3 with a Tarmogoyf and Gravecrawler. Beatdown from there.
G2: He manages to get out a few Noble Hierarch and a Rancor, but I get a T2 vine activation with Lotleth and Memnite and deplete his board presence before his deck can respond.
Round 3: Grixis Twin 1-2; 1-1-1
G1: I take the game with an early vine activation, I never actually saw what he was playing because he never dropped a pestermite or Deceiver exarch, so I had no idea if he was on delver, twin, or control--I just knew it was grixis
G2: It's definitely twin, but he manages to beat me down with fliers. Initially its a Vendilion clique and pestermite doing the work, so I cast a stinkweed imp to chump block and buy time, but he gets out a thundermaw hellkite and shuts me down quickly.
G3: A seriously grindy match like the second game in my first round--it seems like this may be the common gametype for this matchup...very long and exhausting. I manage to deal steady damage throughout the game, but as he builds up a manabase I just can't get through the snapcaster cryptics and other 2-for-1's. I have him on one life for at least 4 turns, but he just tempos it out every turn until he goes off with twin and exarch in turns.
Round 4: Blue White Control 2-0; 2-1-1
G1: I destroyed him, with a Lotleth-Memnite on T2 for a vine activation. He casts one path to exile but it was too little to late, the Lotleth was too big after subsequent discards.
G2: He gets out a rest in peace on T2, but I have the abrupt decay and respond on his turn. I almost feel bad about turn three because I was able to cast faithless, wayfinder, and then a memnite to activate 3 vines.
Round 5: RG Tron 2-1; 3-1-1
G1: I get out a quick win with an early activation before he get tron online.
G2: He gets tron and a relic of progenitus online and I just can't get it done. I struggle with what looks like a Wurmcoil Engine beatdown, cast gnaw to recover, but he gets Eye of Ugin up and running for Emrakul, The Aeons Torn and the game gets closed out in typical fashion.
G3: Probably my most proud moment of the whole tournament. At one point he had 3 relics on the board all sniping away at my graveyard, but it turns out he kept a hand with too much hate and not enough actual strategy so I have time to clock him. I play around the relics by putting on pressure with hardcast creatures until he taps them to snipe, and when the first one was tapped I grisly salvage at his end step to drop an Angler, then I proceed to beatdown while casting faithless to dig for abrupt decays and ancient grudges. I was eventually able to pressure him into cracking all three at some point or another and I finish the game with a large Lotleth troll.
Round 6: RUG Twin 1-2; 3-2-1
G1: I get out an early Angler and he just can't deal with the clock.
G2: He gets through with a double tarmogoyf beatdown after I focus too much on stopping the twin combo.
G3: Probably my biggest misplay of the tournament. I miscount his lands on my T3 and play a lotleth troll--I had an abrupt decay in hand and thought I had an extra turn before he potentially went off. He cracks a fetch I didn't notice and plays exarch on my endstep, then plays twin on the next turn and I lose. I shake his hand but I'm so salty that I forgot my playmat.
Round 7: RUG Twin 2-1; 4-2-1
G1: I go off quickly and snag the match with a wayfinder and memnite into vine. He's super excited because he also plays dredgevine and hadn't thought about memnite--He was a great guy to play against and we had a nice time chatting throughout the match.
G2: I can't keep blocking against Tarmogoyf and just get beat down before I can go off.
G3: He mulligans to 5, and I mulligan to 4 and keep with no lands--super sucky way to finish a match. It was a terrible game, but eventually I'm able to beatdown with with a single gravecrawler and finish with two bloodghasts triggered from a dakmor salvage when he gets flooded.
Round 8: Mono Blue Tron 2-1; 5-2-1
G1: I get a lotleth troll down unchallenged and I'm able to discard and pump enough to finish it quickly.
G2: I get Mindslaver locked and concede.
G3: He gets tron online, drops a wurmcoil but I'm able to go wide and deal more damage every turn than he can recover from the wurmcoil lifelink.
Round 9: UWR Control disguised as Twin 2-0; 6-2-1
G1: He mana leaks an angler, but I have just enough in the graveyard to immediately cast another and he can't stop the zombie fish.
G2: Gravecrawler on T1 puts on early pressure while he serum visions for answers, but by the time he can counter anything I'm able to trigger vines and beatdown.
All in all I felt pretty good about my first GP, and I'm going to continue to play Jund Vengevine because I feel like it certainly has enough power behind it to be competitive with the tier 1 decks. I just need practice and I'll get to day 2 next time. Some notes:
-I bought 2 cavern of souls and plan on running them instead of one of the basic forests and swamps. Naming zombie will significantly help with the amount of Twin running around in the meta, and prevent Gurmag angler from decimating the graveyard only to get remanded. It also assists with a manafix for a T2 troll.
-I'm thinking about cutting a memnite and playing a fourth blooghast, he's such a efficient clock and way of closing out the game that I'm seriously considering it. I found myself relying on him for every Twin matchup, and I think one more may have made it possible to turn the near misses against Grixis into wins. In relevance to this case, I've also swapped in another dakmor salvage by moving ghost quarter to the sideboard and removing duress.
-You may wonder about the gnaw to the bone in the mainboard, but it does wonders to keep other aggro decks and burn from running away with the first game unchallenged.
Thanks for reading! Sorry if I missed any details, the GP was such a blur that remembering everything was a little difficult.
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Modern: Dredgevine UBRG . Affinity 0 . Grixis Control UBR
All in all I felt pretty good about my first GP, and I'm going to continue to play Jund Vengevine because I feel like it certainly has enough power behind it to be competitive with the tier 1 decks. I just need practice and I'll get to day 2 next time. Some notes:
-I bought 2 cavern of souls and plan on running them instead of one of the basic forests and swamps. Naming zombie will significantly help with the amount of Twin running around in the meta, and prevent Gurmag angler from decimating the graveyard only to get remanded. It also assists with a manafix for a T2 troll.
-I'm thinking about cutting a memnite and playing a fourth blooghast, he's such a efficient clock and way of closing out the game that I'm seriously considering it. I found myself relying on him for every Twin matchup, and I think one more may have made it possible to turn the near misses against Grixis into wins. In relevance to this case, I've also swapped in another dakmor salvage by moving ghost quarter to the sideboard and removing duress.
-You may wonder about the gnaw to the bone in the mainboard, but it does wonders to keep other aggro decks and burn from running away with the first game unchallenged.
Thanks for reading! Sorry if I missed any details, the GP was such a blur that remembering everything was a little difficult.
All I can say is congratulations. That's an excellent result for this deck at a PTQ. Thank you for playing this deck as it is my personal favorite! Thanks for the insight on the latest meta too. It will help with tweaking for this coming season!
Thanks Creamy! You've actually been a huge force in the creation of this deck, especially in generating the current core--I've probably relied on your posts here more than anything else I've learned except personal testing over the last months.
Vengeful Pharaoh was more or less a non-issue for the day, it only knocked out one Wurmcoil against one of the Tron decks (I forget which one), but its certainly been helpful in my overall testing--especially against aggro decks that put out a lot of attackers. Most of the time he ended up being sided out against the Twin matches since I knew they consistently keep the combo live post-sideboard against dredgevine, so I don't think my list of matchups really let him shine through.
I'm really just beginning to stabalize the manabase--the faults of being a new player more excited with creatures than mana. I know its not how I should have built the deck, but financially I was tapped out before the GP, so I couldn't make any changes like upping the fetch count, although I'd definitely like to at some point.
I used a 2-2 split on thug and stinkweed instead of the grave troll because I felt they were more synergistic with the deck overall. I know troll has the advantage of filling the yard faster, but if I can't discard or cast him he's a dead card. Thug and imp are much more castable for vengvine's sake, and they also present a cheap "Wall" effect because they serve as deterrents to attack--if an opponent attacks I can trade with any creature (or manland) if there's an imp out, and if thug is out I can recur any creature (think Lotleth or Wayfinder usually, but Fulminator conditionally). Plus, the argument can also be made that I can darkblast my own thug in order to dredge up a creature if I already have a creature in my hand and I need the second to cast for a vine activation.
The surgical extractions in the sideboard should have come in for many more matches. Against Twin I'm going to start bringing them in to rip out all the snapcasters I can find because the first one they cast usually ends up being a 2-for-1 chump blocker who dies immediately. He seems to be my stumbling block for that matchup. I also put them in the board to deal with the Coco decks that I heard were going to be everywhere. I wanted to be able to remove a chord, key elf, or halt the infinite persist combo in its tracks but I never got the chance because I never played either matchup.
Thanks Creamy! You've actually been a huge force in the creation of this deck, especially in generating the current core--I've probably relied on your posts here more than anything else I've learned except personal testing over the last months.
Vengeful Pharaoh was more or less a non-issue for the day, it only knocked out one Wurmcoil against one of the Tron decks (I forget which one), but its certainly been helpful in my overall testing--especially against aggro decks that put out a lot of attackers. Most of the time he ended up being sided out against the Twin matches since I knew they consistently keep the combo live post-sideboard against dredgevine, so I don't think my list of matchups really let him shine through.
I'm really just beginning to stabalize the manabase--the faults of being a new player more excited with creatures than mana. I know its not how I should have built the deck, but financially I was tapped out before the GP, so I couldn't make any changes like upping the fetch count, although I'd definitely like to at some point.
I used a 2-2 split on thug and stinkweed instead of the grave troll because I felt they were more synergistic with the deck overall. I know troll has the advantage of filling the yard faster, but if I can't discard or cast him he's a dead card. Thug and imp are much more castable for vengvine's sake, and they also present a cheap "Wall" effect because they serve as deterrents to attack--if an opponent attacks I can trade with any creature (or manland) if there's an imp out, and if thug is out I can recur any creature (think Lotleth or Wayfinder usually, but Fulminator conditionally). Plus, the argument can also be made that I can darkblast my own thug in order to dredge up a creature if I already have a creature in my hand and I need the second to cast for a vine activation.
The surgical extractions in the sideboard should have come in for many more matches. Against Twin I'm going to start bringing them in to rip out all the snapcasters I can find because the first one they cast usually ends up being a 2-for-1 chump blocker who dies immediately. He seems to be my stumbling block for that matchup. I also put them in the board to deal with the Coco decks that I heard were going to be everywhere. I wanted to be able to remove a chord, key elf, or halt the infinite persist combo in its tracks but I never got the chance because I never played either matchup.
Appreciate the shoutout! I get the money thing. I usually build a deck first, and then put the mana together. I found that to be the most reliable. Plus, the longer you play, the more lands you have that don't need to purchase! I used to not run Catacombs because of the budget thing, but now that they're in there, I would never run less than four for a Jund build, specifically because black and green are the primary colors.
Regarding Pharaoh, would you at least keep him in or move him to the SB? Keep in mind the meta always changes and each PTQ will have a different meta. If you expect a lot of aggro decks, I'd keep him in for obvious reasons.
I like your sideboard. I pretty much used the standard sideboard I'd been seeing post results from past dailies, but I'm starting to think a little customization might be in order. Mind posting your Twin SB plan?
My list uses one more dig spell than yours, so I can see running 3 Imps over your two. The argument has always been on the fence for Thug for me, but I always want more attack power, and he is simply underwhelming for me, especially alongside 4 Wayfinders and Bloodghasts that can't block. I like the motto "If you're blocking, you're losing" and that's how I usually build my decks.
Memnite. That is brilliant. I like that list a lot - great job piloting it to a solid record. Hope you don't mind if I take some inspiration from your list
I think for the twin matchup, our best friend is the clock. I've spoken with a few friendly twin players and from what I understand, landing an early and resilient threat is their worst nightmare while they try to assemble the combo--and they almost always keep the entire combo in against us. Dropping an early Lotleth is my first priority, and looting for abrupt decay or a key hate piece becomes my greatest concern after that (If I didn't get one in the opening 7). My sideboard is definitely going to change as a result of Kolaghan's Command--I think spellskite loses a lot of power since Grixis has become such a prominent deck. I'm still working on solidifying my plan, but typically it I think it will go like this:
-1 Pharaoh
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
-2 Grisly Salvage
-Memnites as I feel necessary
+1 Abrupt Decay (Our best friend)
+1 Illness in the ranks
+2 Surgical Extraction (I'm expecting this to help when they start trying to grind me out)
+1 Rakdos Charm
+Possibility for Thoughtseize or Spellskite (Rending Volley if I get rid of Spellskite?)
I understand your choice in the Thug, but I think that he can definitely help get us back in the game occasionally, especially in a removal heavy meta.
Thanks TapTwo! Still a work in progress but I'm happy with the results. I was thinking about ornithopters over memnites, but I think the power can be useful against slow opponents.
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Modern: Dredgevine UBRG . Affinity 0 . Grixis Control UBR
I was thinking about ornithopters over memnites, but I think the power can be useful against slow opponents.
Since both cost 0, 1 vs 2 toughness doesn't matter when comparing vs the Bolt test. But, the extra 1 power will mean a few extra points in the course of a game, which makes the difference to me a lot of games where I can get them down to 2-3 life and hitting with one more creature would have made the difference.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Been testing ShmackAttack's list today. I like it a lot. Mainboard Gnaw is a great idea to help G1 vs. burn, as is main deck Ghost Quarter vs Tron and Bloom. I might want to have a land in the board for matches where the Quarter doesn't matter. I also might want to cut Urborg as it is terrible usually. Dakmor Salvage is also a maybe-cut for another fast land. Otherwise I love this list. Very tight, and respects the meta while still being balls-to-the-wall aggro. If RIP or Grafdigger's Cage become common again, I'm not sure if this deck has an answer or if it's best to just retire it when hate is rampant.
I didn't test it, because I can probably not realiably have the RR. Seems cool though, but I can also imagine it isn't always great. How about Signal Pest? It is about the same idea, but very easy on the mana. In my deck I often have 6 or more creatures in play, so I imagine it can do some good work. However, I don't know what to cut for it.
Yeah I know RR is a little sketchy. Signal Pest is the next best thing, but I don't think I'd run it because of the delay. Bushwhackers would usually be a lethal Violent Outburst effect, waiting a turn for the Pest instead is probably too slow. Bushwhackers effect can also be stacked to go onto recurred Vines too. I find myself going wide more often than tall (esp. since ditching Varolz), so effects like this are desirable. I'm going to try to keep my eyes open for opportunities where having it in my deck/hand might have been helpful.
Interesting. I like the Lavamancer idea a lot, and I also like decreasing reliance on an easily-answered two-card combo. I don't like losing Death's Shadow, as there are matchups where it's the best card in the deck, and if I'm keeping them, I do want the option to have Varolz too. Varolz is also useful with other creatures as a strict value engine, and this deck gains a lot of resiliency by having a sac outlet. I'm playing in a PPTQ tomorrow, and I'm going to lean gently in your direction by cutting one Varolz for a one-of Lavamancer. I can see a case for a second in the board too, though I don't think I'm going to try it yet. The thing I don't like about Lavamancer in the main is that one of the G1 strengths of our deck is that every creature besides Birds blanks most common removal outside Path, and giving them another target loses some of that meta advantage. However there are times when it is going to be terrific too. If bad, can always side out.
Our decks differ a lot in the sideboard. Not sure I like Spellskite (we're already strong vs. removal,) or Fulminator (although Tron is a biiiiish...), and I definitely don't think Blood Moon fits in a 20-card deck. I like Duress and Electrickery though (1 Golgari Charm 1 Eleck seems like good options vs. Lingering Souls and Sisters), and although I prefer Gnaw to the Bone to the Warden, maybe it's decent to sub one in over a weirder card in my board like Big Game Hunter.
Overall I like the direction you're taking with the deck a lot, and will continue to tinker with your suggestions.
FOUR.
Someday we'll get a black 1-drop that mills too, and that will be a good day.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
I got to cast Lavamancer twice, and it felt wonderful both times, putting my opponent under immediate pressure and forcing them to use the bolt that was otherwise stuck in their hand with only bad targets. It would be meta-dependent, but I think it might be more of a sideboard card, as part of our strength comes from blanking their removal. Looks awesome in G2 once the Dismembers and Abrupt Decays come out, but then you barely get the upside, and the sideboard is already bursting at the seams. Not sure what direction to go with this.
I agree with this in principle, and I wound up going with a 1-1-1 package of Duress-IoK-Thoughtseize, to give me a nice mix with 2 good for burn, 2 good for tron, and 2 good for midrange. (And 3 good vs. combo.) Inquisition is the best of the 3 if you have any confidence that Tron isn't in the room.
I find that no one seems to know that they should be countering Satyr Wayfinder. If the deck ever really makes it, I think a new challenge that will arise is resolving Wayfinders, because they are by far the most reliable way to get a vine out on 3. It's not rare for its mill to generate a BG or VV, and lead to either the 3rd land or second creature spell required for either of them. It's like the Summer Bloom to Amulet of Vigor. Right now I love it over Salvage, but you're right, if people start realizing they should counter it, its speed becomes a huge liability.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Just not sure if its worth a spot.
The deck needed a marginally better Merfolk Looter as another discard outlet. Also, it was really looking for a way to get value out of milled instants/sorceries - the main problem with Snapcaster Mage in the deck was that it required additional mana on the same turn, but you'd often want to tap out to play it as your second creature for Vengevine.
Somehow Jace fills both of those roles. Having 0 power, not having flash, and not being able to 'flashback' a spell on the same turn are pretty huge cons, but they're less relevant for this deck than for other blue decks. It's too bad his +1 and ult are probably totally useless in any deck though.
Sample list:
4 Vengevine
4 Hedron Crab
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Flamekin Harbinger
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Mulldrifter
3 Faithless Looting
4 Thought Scour
4 Serum Visions
4 Murderous Cut
2 Gitaxian Probe
Lands (19)
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bloodstained Mire
Many pages back there was some interest in Vexing Devil. I believe it was found to generally be a bust, but I can see a build for it. I'm starting to think crazy thoughts about getting rid of Gravecrawlers and maybe going down to 3 Lotleths. Devil seems like a decent test subject in there.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
I'll post a list and report later, but for those wondering I've been playing the Jund version of the deck and found it vastly superior to the BUG version I tested initially.
Congrats - very interested in hearing about it! Misplays are backbreaking in this deck :/
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Seems good, no?
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
4 Vengevine
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Memnite
3 Satyr Wayfinder
3 Gravecrawler
3 Bloodghast
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
Noncreature Spells
4 Faithless Looting
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Grisly Salvage
1 Darkblast
1 Gnaw to the Bone
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Copperline Gorge
2 Bloodcrypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Stomping Ground
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Llanowar Wastes
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Spellskite
1 Illness in the ranks
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Golgari Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Fulminator Mage
Round 1: Grixis Twin 1-1 Draw; 0-0-1
G1: I crushed him with an early T3 Vengevine activation and he really didn't get anything going in time to stop the clock
G2: We both played obnoxiously slow, he was able to tempo it out until I misplayed when we went to turns and instead of flashing back faithless looting to just draw two cards, I dredged 10 and ended up decking myself in turn 4. He was at 3 life for the longest time and I couldn't get past a snapcaster mage with Splinter twin attached that he would use to flashback electrolyze or cryptic command to kill or tap the bloodghasts I was recurring.
G3: We never got to play G3 and we entered the draw bracket immediately...yay!
Round 2: GW Modern Death and Taxes Brew 2-0; 1-0-1
G1: He gets out a Leonin Arbiter on turn two, but luckily I had all the land I needed after a T1 Faithless, I was able to recur Vengevine T3 with a Tarmogoyf and Gravecrawler. Beatdown from there.
G2: He manages to get out a few Noble Hierarch and a Rancor, but I get a T2 vine activation with Lotleth and Memnite and deplete his board presence before his deck can respond.
Round 3: Grixis Twin 1-2; 1-1-1
G1: I take the game with an early vine activation, I never actually saw what he was playing because he never dropped a pestermite or Deceiver exarch, so I had no idea if he was on delver, twin, or control--I just knew it was grixis
G2: It's definitely twin, but he manages to beat me down with fliers. Initially its a Vendilion clique and pestermite doing the work, so I cast a stinkweed imp to chump block and buy time, but he gets out a thundermaw hellkite and shuts me down quickly.
G3: A seriously grindy match like the second game in my first round--it seems like this may be the common gametype for this matchup...very long and exhausting. I manage to deal steady damage throughout the game, but as he builds up a manabase I just can't get through the snapcaster cryptics and other 2-for-1's. I have him on one life for at least 4 turns, but he just tempos it out every turn until he goes off with twin and exarch in turns.
Round 4: Blue White Control 2-0; 2-1-1
G1: I destroyed him, with a Lotleth-Memnite on T2 for a vine activation. He casts one path to exile but it was too little to late, the Lotleth was too big after subsequent discards.
G2: He gets out a rest in peace on T2, but I have the abrupt decay and respond on his turn. I almost feel bad about turn three because I was able to cast faithless, wayfinder, and then a memnite to activate 3 vines.
Round 5: RG Tron 2-1; 3-1-1
G1: I get out a quick win with an early activation before he get tron online.
G2: He gets tron and a relic of progenitus online and I just can't get it done. I struggle with what looks like a Wurmcoil Engine beatdown, cast gnaw to recover, but he gets Eye of Ugin up and running for Emrakul, The Aeons Torn and the game gets closed out in typical fashion.
G3: Probably my most proud moment of the whole tournament. At one point he had 3 relics on the board all sniping away at my graveyard, but it turns out he kept a hand with too much hate and not enough actual strategy so I have time to clock him. I play around the relics by putting on pressure with hardcast creatures until he taps them to snipe, and when the first one was tapped I grisly salvage at his end step to drop an Angler, then I proceed to beatdown while casting faithless to dig for abrupt decays and ancient grudges. I was eventually able to pressure him into cracking all three at some point or another and I finish the game with a large Lotleth troll.
Round 6: RUG Twin 1-2; 3-2-1
G1: I get out an early Angler and he just can't deal with the clock.
G2: He gets through with a double tarmogoyf beatdown after I focus too much on stopping the twin combo.
G3: Probably my biggest misplay of the tournament. I miscount his lands on my T3 and play a lotleth troll--I had an abrupt decay in hand and thought I had an extra turn before he potentially went off. He cracks a fetch I didn't notice and plays exarch on my endstep, then plays twin on the next turn and I lose. I shake his hand but I'm so salty that I forgot my playmat.
Round 7: RUG Twin 2-1; 4-2-1
G1: I go off quickly and snag the match with a wayfinder and memnite into vine. He's super excited because he also plays dredgevine and hadn't thought about memnite--He was a great guy to play against and we had a nice time chatting throughout the match.
G2: I can't keep blocking against Tarmogoyf and just get beat down before I can go off.
G3: He mulligans to 5, and I mulligan to 4 and keep with no lands--super sucky way to finish a match. It was a terrible game, but eventually I'm able to beatdown with with a single gravecrawler and finish with two bloodghasts triggered from a dakmor salvage when he gets flooded.
Round 8: Mono Blue Tron 2-1; 5-2-1
G1: I get a lotleth troll down unchallenged and I'm able to discard and pump enough to finish it quickly.
G2: I get Mindslaver locked and concede.
G3: He gets tron online, drops a wurmcoil but I'm able to go wide and deal more damage every turn than he can recover from the wurmcoil lifelink.
Round 9: UWR Control disguised as Twin 2-0; 6-2-1
G1: He mana leaks an angler, but I have just enough in the graveyard to immediately cast another and he can't stop the zombie fish.
G2: Gravecrawler on T1 puts on early pressure while he serum visions for answers, but by the time he can counter anything I'm able to trigger vines and beatdown.
All in all I felt pretty good about my first GP, and I'm going to continue to play Jund Vengevine because I feel like it certainly has enough power behind it to be competitive with the tier 1 decks. I just need practice and I'll get to day 2 next time. Some notes:
-I bought 2 cavern of souls and plan on running them instead of one of the basic forests and swamps. Naming zombie will significantly help with the amount of Twin running around in the meta, and prevent Gurmag angler from decimating the graveyard only to get remanded. It also assists with a manafix for a T2 troll.
-I'm thinking about cutting a memnite and playing a fourth blooghast, he's such a efficient clock and way of closing out the game that I'm seriously considering it. I found myself relying on him for every Twin matchup, and I think one more may have made it possible to turn the near misses against Grixis into wins. In relevance to this case, I've also swapped in another dakmor salvage by moving ghost quarter to the sideboard and removing duress.
-You may wonder about the gnaw to the bone in the mainboard, but it does wonders to keep other aggro decks and burn from running away with the first game unchallenged.
Thanks for reading! Sorry if I missed any details, the GP was such a blur that remembering everything was a little difficult.
A few questions since you played so well. How did Vengeful Pharaoh perform? Why no Verdant Catacombs? Did Golgari Thug accomplish anything in the current meta? Why the Surgical Extraction as a 2 of in the SB?
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Vengeful Pharaoh was more or less a non-issue for the day, it only knocked out one Wurmcoil against one of the Tron decks (I forget which one), but its certainly been helpful in my overall testing--especially against aggro decks that put out a lot of attackers. Most of the time he ended up being sided out against the Twin matches since I knew they consistently keep the combo live post-sideboard against dredgevine, so I don't think my list of matchups really let him shine through.
I'm really just beginning to stabalize the manabase--the faults of being a new player more excited with creatures than mana. I know its not how I should have built the deck, but financially I was tapped out before the GP, so I couldn't make any changes like upping the fetch count, although I'd definitely like to at some point.
I used a 2-2 split on thug and stinkweed instead of the grave troll because I felt they were more synergistic with the deck overall. I know troll has the advantage of filling the yard faster, but if I can't discard or cast him he's a dead card. Thug and imp are much more castable for vengvine's sake, and they also present a cheap "Wall" effect because they serve as deterrents to attack--if an opponent attacks I can trade with any creature (or manland) if there's an imp out, and if thug is out I can recur any creature (think Lotleth or Wayfinder usually, but Fulminator conditionally). Plus, the argument can also be made that I can darkblast my own thug in order to dredge up a creature if I already have a creature in my hand and I need the second to cast for a vine activation.
The surgical extractions in the sideboard should have come in for many more matches. Against Twin I'm going to start bringing them in to rip out all the snapcasters I can find because the first one they cast usually ends up being a 2-for-1 chump blocker who dies immediately. He seems to be my stumbling block for that matchup. I also put them in the board to deal with the Coco decks that I heard were going to be everywhere. I wanted to be able to remove a chord, key elf, or halt the infinite persist combo in its tracks but I never got the chance because I never played either matchup.
Regarding Pharaoh, would you at least keep him in or move him to the SB? Keep in mind the meta always changes and each PTQ will have a different meta. If you expect a lot of aggro decks, I'd keep him in for obvious reasons.
I like your sideboard. I pretty much used the standard sideboard I'd been seeing post results from past dailies, but I'm starting to think a little customization might be in order. Mind posting your Twin SB plan?
My list uses one more dig spell than yours, so I can see running 3 Imps over your two. The argument has always been on the fence for Thug for me, but I always want more attack power, and he is simply underwhelming for me, especially alongside 4 Wayfinders and Bloodghasts that can't block. I like the motto "If you're blocking, you're losing" and that's how I usually build my decks.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
I think for the twin matchup, our best friend is the clock. I've spoken with a few friendly twin players and from what I understand, landing an early and resilient threat is their worst nightmare while they try to assemble the combo--and they almost always keep the entire combo in against us. Dropping an early Lotleth is my first priority, and looting for abrupt decay or a key hate piece becomes my greatest concern after that (If I didn't get one in the opening 7). My sideboard is definitely going to change as a result of Kolaghan's Command--I think spellskite loses a lot of power since Grixis has become such a prominent deck. I'm still working on solidifying my plan, but typically it I think it will go like this:
-1 Pharaoh
-1 Gnaw to the Bone
-2 Grisly Salvage
-Memnites as I feel necessary
+1 Abrupt Decay (Our best friend)
+1 Illness in the ranks
+2 Surgical Extraction (I'm expecting this to help when they start trying to grind me out)
+1 Rakdos Charm
+Possibility for Thoughtseize or Spellskite (Rending Volley if I get rid of Spellskite?)
I understand your choice in the Thug, but I think that he can definitely help get us back in the game occasionally, especially in a removal heavy meta.
Thanks TapTwo! Still a work in progress but I'm happy with the results. I was thinking about ornithopters over memnites, but I think the power can be useful against slow opponents.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine
Yeah I know RR is a little sketchy. Signal Pest is the next best thing, but I don't think I'd run it because of the delay. Bushwhackers would usually be a lethal Violent Outburst effect, waiting a turn for the Pest instead is probably too slow. Bushwhackers effect can also be stacked to go onto recurred Vines too. I find myself going wide more often than tall (esp. since ditching Varolz), so effects like this are desirable. I'm going to try to keep my eyes open for opportunities where having it in my deck/hand might have been helpful.
WBG Abzan Midrange
BRG Dredgevine