Although it seems to be a natural choice, the problem I see with Ooze is:
1.- You will need a lot of green sources to get value from it.
2.- Once you start feeding the Ooze (usually with dredgers, Vines, Graweclawlers) you are just ruining your dredge plan for the rest of the match.
I'm finding this deck still somewhat lacking. We need more aggresive creature cards that self-recur in the 1-3 CMC range that preferably have haste. It's too bad those cards haven't been made yet
Lothleth Trollish would be Oona's Prowler. 2 mana for 3 power in the air is not bad.
As much as I like Oona's Prowler, it's just a body. Splinterfright mills two cards each upkeep and has trample. It is also generally bigger than most of their creatures. I usually have 4+ creatures in my yard after T3/T4, so I think having the big body on the ground forcing bad blocks is the better option.
I'm going to replace my Demigods with 2 Scooze and 2 Splinterfrights. I'll run games on Cockatrice tonight and post some results. Someone else should do the same.
Side note: While Scavenging Ooze might be mana intensive, it's good vs mirror, Snapcaster Mage shenanigans, and Goyf. I have been running 2-3 matches per day on Cockatrice the past few days. Once a day or so, i run into the deck with 4 Cryptic Command. They keep delaying that and then Snap it back for another turn. While it doesn't kill us, it prevents us from attacking for 2-3 turns, which just ticks me off. If I had an ooze online that could eat their annoying graveyard spells, I'd feel a lot better against facing blue decks.
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So, I played four matches on Cockatrice tonight. I tested both Scavenging Ooze and Splinterfright, but don't know how significant four matches can be.
Let's get the obvious out of the way. Both are big bodies and generally survive Lightning Bolt and other burn. Both die to Path to Exile, can be countered by Mana Leak and Remand, etc. Both don't play well together. Fright gets bigger with more stuff in the graveyard, while Ooze gets bigger by limiting your graveyard.
I played against an aggro deck (Gruul custom of some sort)...the life gain with Ooze definitely came in handy and having other targets in my opponents yard helped keep my life total respectable. It also allowed for a gigantic creature that traded in a 3-1 block for him to survive. I'd probably prefer Ooze vs aggro decks.
Another game vs UWR Control, I was able to get an Ooze online early. I only got it to a 3/3, but I was able to eat all of my opponents targets for Snapcaster Mage. Keeping them off of targets seemed like the better play both games. In G2, I got it to a 6/6 eating my non recurring BoP and Trolls, so the four life was nice. It did get a Path to Exile, but UWR has so many answers, it was bound to happen. It also survived the T4 Anger of the Gods, making it a nice way to avoid being blown out by a prominent sweeper.
I played against a custom midrange deck that countered my Splinterfright in G2, so I couldn't get any info on it. The only time I could get a Fright online was against Twin and it wasn't effective at all. He combo'd me on T4 before I could finish setting myself up to go off.
All in all, having Troll 5 and 6 with Splinterfright is definitely appealing to me, but at three mana, seems kind of useless, especially if it gets countered, making us waste an entire turn. Whereas having Ooze getting countered still generally leaves us with a mana open to cast a 1 CMC creature. Scavenging Ooze is lower cost at the 2 CMC slot. The lifegain is very relevant against burn/aggro, which is nearly half the format. Everyone can argue mana intensiveness, but going past T7 leaves me generally with an empty hand and 5+ mana with nothing to do. I enjoyed eating useless cards and gaining life, while building a wall.
Anyone try Mortal Combat or have any thoughts if it could work? If it comes down and stays down, T5 win guaranteed probably 80% of the time. Out of the sideboard, I don't think anyone has ever brought in Enchantment hate vs me
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
So, I played four matches on Cockatrice tonight. I tested both Scavenging Ooze and Splinterfright, but don't know how significant four matches can be.
Let's get the obvious out of the way. Both are big bodies and generally survive Lightning Bolt and other burn. Both die to Path to Exile, can be countered by Mana Leak and Remand, etc. Both don't play well together. Fright gets bigger with more stuff in the graveyard, while Ooze gets bigger by limiting your graveyard.
I played against an aggro deck (Gruul custom of some sort)...the life gain with Ooze definitely came in handy and having other targets in my opponents yard helped keep my life total respectable. It also allowed for a gigantic creature that traded in a 3-1 block for him to survive. I'd probably prefer Ooze vs aggro decks.
Another game vs UWR Control, I was able to get an Ooze online early. I only got it to a 3/3, but I was able to eat all of my opponents targets for Snapcaster Mage. Keeping them off of targets seemed like the better play both games. In G2, I got it to a 6/6 eating my non recurring BoP and Trolls, so the four life was nice. It did get a Path to Exile, but UWR has so many answers, it was bound to happen. It also survived the T4 Anger of the Gods, making it a nice way to avoid being blown out by a prominent sweeper.
I played against a custom midrange deck that countered my Splinterfright in G2, so I couldn't get any info on it. The only time I could get a Fright online was against Twin and it wasn't effective at all. He combo'd me on T4 before I could finish setting myself up to go off.
All in all, having Troll 5 and 6 with Splinterfright is definitely appealing to me, but at three mana, seems kind of useless, especially if it gets countered, making us waste an entire turn. Whereas having Ooze getting countered still generally leaves us with a mana open to cast a 1 CMC creature. Scavenging Ooze is lower cost at the 2 CMC slot. The lifegain is very relevant against burn/aggro, which is nearly half the format. Everyone can argue mana intensiveness, but going past T7 leaves me generally with an empty hand and 5+ mana with nothing to do. I enjoyed eating useless cards and gaining life, while building a wall.
I don't think Mortal combat can be a good idea... since the opponent is going to side a grave controle anyway. And many of them will make Combat useless...
Another ... bad ? ... idea is Snapcaster mage. Since we will have our grave quite full, he will be able to be played as an enabler (Fashback Grisly salvage) or for control (Dismember / Abrupt Decay). It's mana consuming but it's versatile.
I'm playing 3 Scooze + 1 Shambling Shell, but i didn't get any expressive results. =/
I played two matches this morning before class. I'm testing 3 Scavenging Ooze MB. The times I see it being good are with 2+ green mana when the board is in a stalemate. Established decks can take care of it no problem within a turn or two, but it appears that rogue decks have a hard time dealing with this. I played against some BS deck this morning that it wiped the floor with G2. In my other match against Affinity, their cranial plating just did work. I made a bad play and shouldn't have attacked. On the rebound, the cast Plating, swung for 8-9 on the back of a Vault Skirge and won. I couldn't get it online G2 vs Affinity, so I lost (0-2).
Leaving him back for a turn or two might not be a wrong play vs aggro decks. If you have a big target, aggro decks have no real way to kill but double/triple block a 7/7. If you leave him back, block their biggest creature that won't kill Scavenging Ooze in combat, then eat the creature it killed. Gain a life back and put a counter on it too. Blocking in Modern doesn't usually win, but I'm trying to see this as something that will swing with Vengevines, Bloodghasts, Gravecrawlers and LolTrolls. Might be a wrong play, but input on a scenario like this is definitely appreciated.
I'll run a few more tonight and make my final decision. When Scooze is online, I'm 2-2. I can't say enough overall yet. Note: both losses were to Tier 1 decks (Affinity & UWR Control/UWR midrange?). Getting Scavenging Ooze big vs an Aggro deck is not hard and the lifegain does work. Most decks I run into are aggro/midrange. Ooze is even a threat vs control. I'll eat all your Snapcaster Mage targets in response to a Path to Exile
@Palefang_Dawnfall, Snapcaster Mage is nice giving us access to both Lightning Bolt & Abrupt Decay, even Creeping Corrosion post SB. If you have a bird online and can get the right cards with Faithless Looting, I can pretty consistently get to five mana sources if the game goes past turn 7. Flash is definitely nice.
We could even try the UWR trick. Bolt, Snap, Bolt, end of opponents turn. Deal six damage, have a creature to attack with next turn. Eight potential damage no one would see coming from a Dredgevine deck
I can even see a combat trick with Snapcaster Mage & Ambush Viper at the end of your opponents turn. Return Vengevine, play land, recur Bloodghast, and attack with everything because the other guys came through your upkeep. Definitely worth giving it a shot for our BUG friends that haven't been seeing any success.
Trying Bolt-Snap-Bolt now. So far it seems OK, but I guess you can throw a bolt and a snap in any deck and call it a deck. I am running basically a RUB deck with 4 Vines, but without G. Still needs a TON of testing before I will post a list.
I honestly think that the Death's Shadow/Varolz combo is a really nice alternate finisher, for now. Most other deck's, while being more powerful, have one big disadvantage-they're so popular that people have spent a lot of time thinking of the most efficient ways to counter them. Dredgevine is still relatively under the radar in a lot of respects, so we should use that to our advantage. I think a lot of more experienced players will see Shadow/Varolz probably for the first time and think "ok...what the hell is this guy doing?" And by that time, we're swinging for 23 on T4 and killing them. Its a nice surprise. It'll catch them off guard. And considering that most top tier decks and their sideboards are kind of set in stone, do we really think anyone is going to modify their decks just to deal with us, considering that we aren't too common? Sure they may hit our massive 15/14 Lotleth Troll with Path to Exile, but that's less that will be targeting our Vines. The key seems to be to provide more targets. They can't kill everything, so we have to make the most of what we have.
I honestly think that the Death's Shadow/Varolz combo is a really nice alternate finisher, for now. Most other deck's, while being more powerful, have one big disadvantage-they're so popular that people have spent a lot of time thinking of the most efficient ways to counter them. Dredgevine is still relatively under the radar in a lot of respects, so we should use that to our advantage. I think a lot of more experienced players will see Shadow/Varolz probably for the first time and think "ok...what the hell is this guy doing?" And by that time, we're swinging for 23 on T4 and killing them. Its a nice surprise. It'll catch them off guard. And considering that most top tier decks and their sideboards are kind of set in stone, do we really think anyone is going to modify their decks just to deal with us, considering that we aren't too common? Sure they may hit our massive 15/14 Lotleth Troll with Path to Exile, but that's less that will be targeting our Vines. The key seems to be to provide more targets. They can't kill everything, so we have to make the most of what we have.
Well, when you put it that way, I could see the look on a Zoo player's face when they're being attacked for 15 Trample. They've taken 6-7 from their lands already as normal. They have to quadruple block or die because their Lightning Bolt is useless. Quadruple block and bolt to kill it.
Don't forget that turns a Birds of Paradise into a 13/14 flyer for 5 mana over 2 turns
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
I tested a ton of matches on Cockatrice. I went 4-3 tonight in the last few hours. Ignore one loss. I mulliganed to three G1. G2, I drew 3 Birds of Paradise and six lands. That leaves me at 4-2 vs everyone else.
Match 1: UWR Control: T3 Ooze, T4/T5 exile Birds of Paradise/Lotleth Troll, 3 spells from their graveyard, leaving nothing but two lands. So 4/4 Ooze, outside of burn range. Swing with this +2 Vengevine. He flashes in Snapcaster Mage with no targets, chump block. He scoops after his draw step. (won 2-0)
Match 2: Merfolk: I'm terrible at remembering their card names. He plays a lord T2, I Lightning Bolt. My T3, I play Lotleth Troll, leaving up regen mana. Play Scavenging Ooze T4 and pass. I wanted to test these two guys together, so I went all in discarding my entire hand to the troll. I exiled everything I could possibly over T5/T6 for Ooze. I blocked two of his creatures, killing both. I believe at this point, I had a 6/5 Troll & 6/6 Ooze. I swing T7, he chump blocks, leaving himself with nothing. Then he scooped T8. (won 2-1)
Match 3: Esper Kill Crap: Got my stuff going. Managed to get my opponent below 10 life both games. He told me he ran 10 sweepers MB. He played either Supreme Verdict, Damnation, or Wrath of God every turn. He had a recurring graveyard strategy that he got back a sweeper every turn. I play creatures, he sweeps, I lose everything. Nothing happens. G1 went to T15 with this nonsense every turn. Finally, I scooped. G2, we went to T6 and it was happening every single time again, so I just said screw it and left the match. (0-2 against Esper Sweepers?)
Lost against Jund (1-2). Beat Bogles (2-1) and some other match I'm forgetting
I think this is enough to say: if you're going to run Scavenging Ooze, make the priority getting him to 4/4 to avoid the burn spells. After this, just start putting pressure on it. If anyone wants to see the deck I'm currently playing, let me know.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
-Potentially gives opponent free land
-Can't recur from the graveyard
-Need to splash red if you don't already. If you do, he costs red, which is likely the color you'll be running the least of. Without red, he's a dead draw and really isn't that great late game
-No discard outlet attached
-Can recur from the graveyard whenever a creature you have dies
-Hasty
-For the most part, unblockable thanks to Shadow, which also allows him to block creatures that have Shadow (the latter isn't too applicable but is nice, I guess)
Cons:
-2 black mana for a 1/1 is a little underwhelming
-No discard outlet attached
-He's not free even when a creature you have hits the graveyard, you have to pay 1 black mana for the privilege
-No discard outlet
-2 green mana (not really a problem, per se, but it makes his casting cost very specific)
-Can't bring him back when he's finally dead
Tuktuk the Explorer
Pros:
-Hasty
-His death nets you a nice 5/5 creature
Cons:
-No discard outlet
-Can't bring him back from the graveyard
-3 mana is kind of steep for a 1/1
-If he doesn't die, he's a waste of resources
Guide and Nether Traitor seem like the best options I've found so far.
I honestly think that the Death's Shadow/Varolz combo is a really nice alternate finisher, for now. Most other deck's, while being more powerful, have one big disadvantage-they're so popular that people have spent a lot of time thinking of the most efficient ways to counter them. Dredgevine is still relatively under the radar in a lot of respects, so we should use that to our advantage. I think a lot of more experienced players will see Shadow/Varolz probably for the first time and think "ok...what the hell is this guy doing?" And by that time, we're swinging for 23 on T4 and killing them. Its a nice surprise. It'll catch them off guard. And considering that most top tier decks and their sideboards are kind of set in stone, do we really think anyone is going to modify their decks just to deal with us, considering that we aren't too common? Sure they may hit our massive 15/14 Lotleth Troll with Path to Exile, but that's less that will be targeting our Vines. The key seems to be to provide more targets. They can't kill everything, so we have to make the most of what we have.
Well, when you put it that way, I could see the look on a Zoo player's face when they're being attacked for 15 Trample. They've taken 6-7 from their lands already as normal. They have to quadruple block or die because their Lightning Bolt is useless. Quadruple block and bolt to kill it.
Don't forget that turns a Birds of Paradise into a 13/14 flyer for 5 mana over 2 turns
And while they block Troll, it leaves your Vines and anything else totally free to pummel them.
Putting it on Birds is another great option, since he's evasive and can often just end the match after a massive swing.
I truly think that our ability to fly under the radar is what is going to be a great asset, especially in paper lists when most people really won't be expecting it. From what I've seen, MTGO is where Dredgevine is more common. Seeing it IRL and reacting to it is going to be quite different. A lot of decks don't quite know how to react to us. We need to capitalize on that.
I'd also like to point out that Grafdigger's Cage is probably one of our biggest adversaries in the format. Varolz/Shadow combo bypasses that. The Cage won't let us cast creature cards from our graveyard, or let creatures enter the battlefield from our graveyard. Varolz let's us scavenge Shadow, which means we just exile him and pay his mana cost. Also, according to Gatherer, once the card is exiled and the mana cost paid, you can't interrupt the process via Relic of Progenitus. So this strategy gets around two hate tools aimed to disrupt us.
The Scavenging Ooze idea is intriguing, but the big problem is that it requires constant attention and resources to pump it up. And then if it gets exiled or destroyed, it ends up being a waste of time. Ooze has a reputation these days for being a must kill card. With Varolz/Shadow, I think we can catch our opponents off guard. They'll probably be wondering what we're doing and may let their guards down, thinking we don't know what we're doing by playing a card that doesn't have such a big rep for being troublesome. And at that point, we spring the trap and swipe for lethal.
Ultimately, recurring Vines is our primary win condition, but we can easily take games by surprise by playing upon their being unprepared.
Think of it this way. Let's say we win game 1 through the traditional method of bringing Vines back. So they SB in their hate against us Game 2. Then, we use the Varolz/Shadow method which they won't see coming, bypassing their Cages and Relics and take the game. That's the beauty of off beat strategies like this: their downfall is that they won't know how to properly react. Its a trap-we make them think Vines are all we have, and then bring in the backup win con that circumvents their hate. Its all very meta, I know, but we have to take the advantage where it exists. People know how to deal with popular decks like Twin, Affinity or Zoo. Why wouldn't they, they've devised ways to beat them-"if I face Melira Pod, I SB in the following cards...". With us, we're more fringe so the answer to dealing with us may not be evident right off the bat. And when they think they have it, we change our strategy.
Can anyone post proper numbers to give me a better idea of what to run and how many?
Another note: Scavenging Ooze does require resources, but it's only one card. Whereas, this strategy requires getting a Death's Shadow in the yard & having Varolz, the Scar-Striped on the field to use it. Otherwise, it's a useless 1 CMC card that can't be recurred. I'd rather have a BoP to actually do something. This seems way to risky, which is why we utilize backup options for our Gravecrawler in the form of Tymaret, the Murder King and Dregscape Zombie.
Plus, I think going this route ruins our plan. What do we remove? We need our removal to survive, dredgers and enablers to make the deck work, and our way to get Vengevine online. We can remove a few cards, but nothing more than four. To get this reliably online, I think we need at least 3 of each. Take out anything too drastic and it ruins the consistency.
Has anyone done any real testing with lily of the veil? I can't bring myself to add her to the deck but every time I do some testing I think about how good it could be but I'm worried about the speed
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Decks: standard
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
While she does discard and cause disruption, she isn't a creature and doesn't interact with the yard. Her -? ability causes them to sac a creature, when Lightning Bolt does the same thing for less mana. Her + ability is discard, which we can do with one of our 8 enablers Troll / Looting. All cheaper mana and faster. That's my 2 sense on why no one runs her
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
As someone pointed out, it is quite easy to focus on growing a Scavenging Ooze (either on our side or on the opponent's side) 4/4 so that he can't be bolted.
As a result I would say that Lightning Bolt and Dismember (for exemple) have different uses : bolt can be used to either kill squishy creatures or direct damage the opponent while Dismember can only be used to kill creatures but will be more effective at this task.
Another good card fulfilling the same goal is Abrupt Decay, in a more versatile way.
In a nutshell, I'd say that we have to know what we want before quickly taking bolt into the deck. Do we need fast, blasting cards that can be used to kill squishies or do we want real, efficient, creature kill ?
I don't know about you guys, but I'd slightly prefer having Dismember and Abrupt Decay (for better field control) than Lightning Bolt. Even more if the deck is based on a massive Vines / Troll / crawlers / Bloodghast return. 3 points in the opponent's head won't change the game according to me. The ability to deal with a Scavenging Ooze, a Pyromancer Ascension (random thing that crossed my mind) could make the difference.
That's also why I've suggested Snapcaster mage. It's not an enabler (well, could be with Grisly Salvage), it's not a way to kill (if we don't get bolt in). But it will help a lot controlling the field.
On second thought, adding more Decay / Dismember would be better than putting him in.
I was so afraid to get in Goyf again, i've been running from this cards for years.
I'm brazilian, i cannot buy a playset of goyf without selling most part of the best cards in my collection, here's like USD 410,00~420,00 each ;~
Anyone with another cheaper choice?!
1.- You will need a lot of green sources to get value from it.
2.- Once you start feeding the Ooze (usually with dredgers, Vines, Graweclawlers) you are just ruining your dredge plan for the rest of the match.
Actually, I feel another Lotleth Trollish card is the guy we are looking for. Maybe Splinterfright?
As much as I like Oona's Prowler, it's just a body. Splinterfright mills two cards each upkeep and has trample. It is also generally bigger than most of their creatures. I usually have 4+ creatures in my yard after T3/T4, so I think having the big body on the ground forcing bad blocks is the better option.
I'm going to replace my Demigods with 2 Scooze and 2 Splinterfrights. I'll run games on Cockatrice tonight and post some results. Someone else should do the same.
Side note: While Scavenging Ooze might be mana intensive, it's good vs mirror, Snapcaster Mage shenanigans, and Goyf. I have been running 2-3 matches per day on Cockatrice the past few days. Once a day or so, i run into the deck with 4 Cryptic Command. They keep delaying that and then Snap it back for another turn. While it doesn't kill us, it prevents us from attacking for 2-3 turns, which just ticks me off. If I had an ooze online that could eat their annoying graveyard spells, I'd feel a lot better against facing blue decks.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
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Let's get the obvious out of the way. Both are big bodies and generally survive Lightning Bolt and other burn. Both die to Path to Exile, can be countered by Mana Leak and Remand, etc. Both don't play well together. Fright gets bigger with more stuff in the graveyard, while Ooze gets bigger by limiting your graveyard.
I played against an aggro deck (Gruul custom of some sort)...the life gain with Ooze definitely came in handy and having other targets in my opponents yard helped keep my life total respectable. It also allowed for a gigantic creature that traded in a 3-1 block for him to survive. I'd probably prefer Ooze vs aggro decks.
Another game vs UWR Control, I was able to get an Ooze online early. I only got it to a 3/3, but I was able to eat all of my opponents targets for Snapcaster Mage. Keeping them off of targets seemed like the better play both games. In G2, I got it to a 6/6 eating my non recurring BoP and Trolls, so the four life was nice. It did get a Path to Exile, but UWR has so many answers, it was bound to happen. It also survived the T4 Anger of the Gods, making it a nice way to avoid being blown out by a prominent sweeper.
I played against a custom midrange deck that countered my Splinterfright in G2, so I couldn't get any info on it. The only time I could get a Fright online was against Twin and it wasn't effective at all. He combo'd me on T4 before I could finish setting myself up to go off.
All in all, having Troll 5 and 6 with Splinterfright is definitely appealing to me, but at three mana, seems kind of useless, especially if it gets countered, making us waste an entire turn. Whereas having Ooze getting countered still generally leaves us with a mana open to cast a 1 CMC creature. Scavenging Ooze is lower cost at the 2 CMC slot. The lifegain is very relevant against burn/aggro, which is nearly half the format. Everyone can argue mana intensiveness, but going past T7 leaves me generally with an empty hand and 5+ mana with nothing to do. I enjoyed eating useless cards and gaining life, while building a wall.
I'm going to try out the following change to my deck since I have a feel.
-4 Demigod of Revenge
+3 Scavenging Ooze
+1 Dregscape Zombie
I'll post results next week after FNM / more results from Cockatrice!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
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YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
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BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
I'm playing 3 Scooze + 1 Shambling Shell, but i didn't get any expressive results. =/
Anyone tried 1 Haakon, scourge of Stromgald ? It makes a recursive 3/3 body that can enable our gravecrawlers
Another ... bad ? ... idea is Snapcaster mage. Since we will have our grave quite full, he will be able to be played as an enabler (Fashback Grisly salvage) or for control (Dismember / Abrupt Decay). It's mana consuming but it's versatile.
Otherwise, let's stay on Scavenging Ooze for the moment. I don't like Splinterfright mana cost/effectiveness
Palefang Dawnfall
I played two matches this morning before class. I'm testing 3 Scavenging Ooze MB. The times I see it being good are with 2+ green mana when the board is in a stalemate. Established decks can take care of it no problem within a turn or two, but it appears that rogue decks have a hard time dealing with this. I played against some BS deck this morning that it wiped the floor with G2. In my other match against Affinity, their cranial plating just did work. I made a bad play and shouldn't have attacked. On the rebound, the cast Plating, swung for 8-9 on the back of a Vault Skirge and won. I couldn't get it online G2 vs Affinity, so I lost (0-2).
Leaving him back for a turn or two might not be a wrong play vs aggro decks. If you have a big target, aggro decks have no real way to kill but double/triple block a 7/7. If you leave him back, block their biggest creature that won't kill Scavenging Ooze in combat, then eat the creature it killed. Gain a life back and put a counter on it too. Blocking in Modern doesn't usually win, but I'm trying to see this as something that will swing with Vengevines, Bloodghasts, Gravecrawlers and LolTrolls. Might be a wrong play, but input on a scenario like this is definitely appreciated.
I'll run a few more tonight and make my final decision. When Scooze is online, I'm 2-2. I can't say enough overall yet. Note: both losses were to Tier 1 decks (Affinity & UWR Control/UWR midrange?). Getting Scavenging Ooze big vs an Aggro deck is not hard and the lifegain does work. Most decks I run into are aggro/midrange. Ooze is even a threat vs control. I'll eat all your Snapcaster Mage targets in response to a Path to Exile
@Palefang_Dawnfall, Snapcaster Mage is nice giving us access to both Lightning Bolt & Abrupt Decay, even Creeping Corrosion post SB. If you have a bird online and can get the right cards with Faithless Looting, I can pretty consistently get to five mana sources if the game goes past turn 7. Flash is definitely nice.
We could even try the UWR trick. Bolt, Snap, Bolt, end of opponents turn. Deal six damage, have a creature to attack with next turn. Eight potential damage no one would see coming from a Dredgevine deck
I can even see a combat trick with Snapcaster Mage & Ambush Viper at the end of your opponents turn. Return Vengevine, play land, recur Bloodghast, and attack with everything because the other guys came through your upkeep. Definitely worth giving it a shot for our BUG friends that haven't been seeing any success.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
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Lets say you do try RUB Dredgevine. In green, we have Birds of Paradise, Lotleth Troll, Grisly Salvage, and Abrupt Decay. Blue replaces green quite well with options like Hedron Crab, Fatestitcher, Snapcaster mage, and Skaab Ruinator. Crab replaces Troll for the enabler; Mage helps us utilize useless spells in our graveyard, Ruinator is a great 3 CMC finisher. With Red, we still have Faithless Looting, Lightning Bolt, other burn spells, Burning Inquiry. You could go the typical BUG-Vine route looking something like this:
4 Hedron Crab
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Skaab Ruinator
2 Fatestitcher
2 Golgari Thug
4 Vengevine
4 Lightning Bolt
20 Lands
Fill the rest with some form of combination of Gitaxian Probe, Remand, Mana Leak, Cryptic Command, etc
No one take this deck seriously. I was just speculating on options with BUR combination of colors!
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
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Well, when you put it that way, I could see the look on a Zoo player's face when they're being attacked for 15 Trample. They've taken 6-7 from their lands already as normal. They have to quadruple block or die because their Lightning Bolt is useless. Quadruple block and bolt to kill it.
Don't forget that turns a Birds of Paradise into a 13/14 flyer for 5 mana over 2 turns
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
I got a Scavenging Ooze online five times. It got an immediate Path to Exile and Lightning Helix on two occasions. On the other three occasions:
Match 1: UWR Control: T3 Ooze, T4/T5 exile Birds of Paradise/Lotleth Troll, 3 spells from their graveyard, leaving nothing but two lands. So 4/4 Ooze, outside of burn range. Swing with this +2 Vengevine. He flashes in Snapcaster Mage with no targets, chump block. He scoops after his draw step. (won 2-0)
Match 2: Merfolk: I'm terrible at remembering their card names. He plays a lord T2, I Lightning Bolt. My T3, I play Lotleth Troll, leaving up regen mana. Play Scavenging Ooze T4 and pass. I wanted to test these two guys together, so I went all in discarding my entire hand to the troll. I exiled everything I could possibly over T5/T6 for Ooze. I blocked two of his creatures, killing both. I believe at this point, I had a 6/5 Troll & 6/6 Ooze. I swing T7, he chump blocks, leaving himself with nothing. Then he scooped T8. (won 2-1)
Match 3: Esper Kill Crap: Got my stuff going. Managed to get my opponent below 10 life both games. He told me he ran 10 sweepers MB. He played either Supreme Verdict, Damnation, or Wrath of God every turn. He had a recurring graveyard strategy that he got back a sweeper every turn. I play creatures, he sweeps, I lose everything. Nothing happens. G1 went to T15 with this nonsense every turn. Finally, I scooped. G2, we went to T6 and it was happening every single time again, so I just said screw it and left the match. (0-2 against Esper Sweepers?)
Lost against Jund (1-2). Beat Bogles (2-1) and some other match I'm forgetting
I think this is enough to say: if you're going to run Scavenging Ooze, make the priority getting him to 4/4 to avoid the burn spells. After this, just start putting pressure on it. If anyone wants to see the deck I'm currently playing, let me know.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Goblin Guide
Pros:
-Hasty
-1CMC for a 2/2
Cons:
-Potentially gives opponent free land
-Can't recur from the graveyard
-Need to splash red if you don't already. If you do, he costs red, which is likely the color you'll be running the least of. Without red, he's a dead draw and really isn't that great late game
-No discard outlet attached
Nether Traitor
Pros:
-Can recur from the graveyard whenever a creature you have dies
-Hasty
-For the most part, unblockable thanks to Shadow, which also allows him to block creatures that have Shadow (the latter isn't too applicable but is nice, I guess)
Cons:
-2 black mana for a 1/1 is a little underwhelming
-No discard outlet attached
-He's not free even when a creature you have hits the graveyard, you have to pay 1 black mana for the privilege
Strangleroot Geist
Pros:
-Hasty
-Undying
Cons:
-No discard outlet
-2 green mana (not really a problem, per se, but it makes his casting cost very specific)
-Can't bring him back when he's finally dead
Tuktuk the Explorer
Pros:
-Hasty
-His death nets you a nice 5/5 creature
Cons:
-No discard outlet
-Can't bring him back from the graveyard
-3 mana is kind of steep for a 1/1
-If he doesn't die, he's a waste of resources
Guide and Nether Traitor seem like the best options I've found so far.
And while they block Troll, it leaves your Vines and anything else totally free to pummel them.
Putting it on Birds is another great option, since he's evasive and can often just end the match after a massive swing.
I truly think that our ability to fly under the radar is what is going to be a great asset, especially in paper lists when most people really won't be expecting it. From what I've seen, MTGO is where Dredgevine is more common. Seeing it IRL and reacting to it is going to be quite different. A lot of decks don't quite know how to react to us. We need to capitalize on that.
I'd also like to point out that Grafdigger's Cage is probably one of our biggest adversaries in the format. Varolz/Shadow combo bypasses that. The Cage won't let us cast creature cards from our graveyard, or let creatures enter the battlefield from our graveyard. Varolz let's us scavenge Shadow, which means we just exile him and pay his mana cost. Also, according to Gatherer, once the card is exiled and the mana cost paid, you can't interrupt the process via Relic of Progenitus. So this strategy gets around two hate tools aimed to disrupt us.
The Scavenging Ooze idea is intriguing, but the big problem is that it requires constant attention and resources to pump it up. And then if it gets exiled or destroyed, it ends up being a waste of time. Ooze has a reputation these days for being a must kill card. With Varolz/Shadow, I think we can catch our opponents off guard. They'll probably be wondering what we're doing and may let their guards down, thinking we don't know what we're doing by playing a card that doesn't have such a big rep for being troublesome. And at that point, we spring the trap and swipe for lethal.
Ultimately, recurring Vines is our primary win condition, but we can easily take games by surprise by playing upon their being unprepared.
Think of it this way. Let's say we win game 1 through the traditional method of bringing Vines back. So they SB in their hate against us Game 2. Then, we use the Varolz/Shadow method which they won't see coming, bypassing their Cages and Relics and take the game. That's the beauty of off beat strategies like this: their downfall is that they won't know how to properly react. Its a trap-we make them think Vines are all we have, and then bring in the backup win con that circumvents their hate. Its all very meta, I know, but we have to take the advantage where it exists. People know how to deal with popular decks like Twin, Affinity or Zoo. Why wouldn't they, they've devised ways to beat them-"if I face Melira Pod, I SB in the following cards...". With us, we're more fringe so the answer to dealing with us may not be evident right off the bat. And when they think they have it, we change our strategy.
Another note: Scavenging Ooze does require resources, but it's only one card. Whereas, this strategy requires getting a Death's Shadow in the yard & having Varolz, the Scar-Striped on the field to use it. Otherwise, it's a useless 1 CMC card that can't be recurred. I'd rather have a BoP to actually do something. This seems way to risky, which is why we utilize backup options for our Gravecrawler in the form of Tymaret, the Murder King and Dregscape Zombie.
Plus, I think going this route ruins our plan. What do we remove? We need our removal to survive, dredgers and enablers to make the deck work, and our way to get Vengevine online. We can remove a few cards, but nothing more than four. To get this reliably online, I think we need at least 3 of each. Take out anything too drastic and it ruins the consistency.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
N/A
Modern
Dredge vine
4 color gifts
Junk midrange
Daga control
Rb burn
Soul sisters
Legacy
The gate
Zombie bombardment
Burn
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
Twitch Stream: www.twitch.tv/coachcreamy
YouTube: www.youtube.com/user/Cherokee3210
Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
As someone pointed out, it is quite easy to focus on growing a Scavenging Ooze (either on our side or on the opponent's side) 4/4 so that he can't be bolted.
As a result I would say that Lightning Bolt and Dismember (for exemple) have different uses : bolt can be used to either kill squishy creatures or direct damage the opponent while Dismember can only be used to kill creatures but will be more effective at this task.
Another good card fulfilling the same goal is Abrupt Decay, in a more versatile way.
In a nutshell, I'd say that we have to know what we want before quickly taking bolt into the deck. Do we need fast, blasting cards that can be used to kill squishies or do we want real, efficient, creature kill ?
I don't know about you guys, but I'd slightly prefer having Dismember and Abrupt Decay (for better field control) than Lightning Bolt. Even more if the deck is based on a massive Vines / Troll / crawlers / Bloodghast return. 3 points in the opponent's head won't change the game according to me. The ability to deal with a Scavenging Ooze, a Pyromancer Ascension (random thing that crossed my mind) could make the difference.
That's also why I've suggested Snapcaster mage. It's not an enabler (well, could be with Grisly Salvage), it's not a way to kill (if we don't get bolt in). But it will help a lot controlling the field.
On second thought, adding more Decay / Dismember would be better than putting him in.
Palefang Dawnfall