@Badd Buisness
First of all thank you for your opinion.
I will definitely try timely reinforements out. I didn't inlcude the in the first place, because the tokens don't seem to be useful against most decks.
I also have a few questions about your strategy against certain decks:
If you play against Tron do you counter their land searchers or wait for the big cards to counter? Do you change the strategy post board?
Do you board Runed Halo against infect?
Against which decks besides Tron do you bring the Loam package in?
Loam package is honestly 95% for tron. But I will occasionally bring it in with any grindy matchup where I don't need wraths. Against UWR draw-go, it's typically a great card in place of supreme verdict if you know they aren't playing Geist of Saint Traft, especially since they depend on their colonnades to win most of the time. As for countering tron's plays, I counter whatever I can typically. If I can prevent them from scrying to set up tron, I will most of the time, but it's not like that's a rule. Everything is situational, and that depends what else is in your hand, and at what point the game's state is. I usually just try to delay them from getting their big plays online as long as I can until I can set up a gifts + ghost quarter + tec edge package to win the game. One good thing is that remands and deprives are much more powerful against tron than mana leak is.
Runed halo isn't too bad against infect. With sideboarding in this deck, it usually comes down to a decision of whether it's "better than another card" in which there are a few cards such as Remand where it's much more effective here. Infect really plays only 3-4 separate threats, so it can act as a pseudo removal spell against inkmoth, blighted agent, or glistener elf.
As for timely reinforcements, the tokens help a ton. Against geist of saint traft decks, it forces them to remove 2 tokens just to protect their geist, and they also trade with snapcasters, confidants, and just buy you time you need to set up your recursion engines. You also will usually be able to recur it after the first play via snapcaster, or witness, so it's often played a few times once you draw the first. Against RDW, it's obivously powerful if for no other reason than gaining 6 life.
Against most midrange decks in the format, you just want to buy time to get to the late-game. Not counting tron, there are very few decks in the format that have as much late-game inevitability as this deck does when played right. Because of that, playing chump blockers like Eternal Witness, Coiling Oracle, and Timely Reinforcements is especially powerful. Against BG midrange, the only 2 cards that really matter in the early to mid-game are Liliana and Dark Confidant. You can deal with everything else they play without falling behind except these two cards, so it's important to plan to deal with them before they come into play.
@Badd Business: Do you think Loam isn't worth running in the maindeck? If you're playing a pre-board game and you don't draw it randomly, it obviously doesn't affect you negatively because you either want to Gifts for it or you just don't Gifts for it. But if you draw it naturally, it's not a bad card; there are fetches, manlands, and wastelands to recur and dredging Loam is good with cards like Eternal Witness and Sun Titan. I realize Sun Titan does about the same thing later on, but having Loam in a draw just completely changes the depth of the way a deck can play--especially one with this much recursion.
I know that space is, as always, unbelievably limited in a deck with Gifts Ungiven. However, I would make the case that you would be opening a slot in the board by closing a spot in the main, and Loam (as a draw spell) is nearly always valuable.
I'm also an advocate of Primal Command in the board; it's pretty incredible with Witness and it's a strong lifegain card--especially since you can Gifts for it, make your 5th land drop, then roll it out for 7 and tutor either a Finks, Witness, or Sun Titan. Which means you assume you get 2/3 of the other cards in the Gifts pile, but eventually you're going to get the Primal back with Witness and close the game).
@Badd Business: Do you think Loam isn't worth running in the maindeck? If you're playing a pre-board game and you don't draw it randomly, it obviously doesn't affect you negatively because you either want to Gifts for it or you just don't Gifts for it. But if you draw it naturally, it's not a bad card; there are fetches, manlands, and wastelands to recur and dredging Loam is good with cards like Eternal Witness and Sun Titan. I realize Sun Titan does about the same thing later on, but having Loam in a draw just completely changes the depth of the way a deck can play--especially one with this much recursion.
I know that space is, as always, unbelievably limited in a deck with Gifts Ungiven. However, I would make the case that you would be opening a slot in the board by closing a spot in the main, and Loam (as a draw spell) is nearly always valuable.
I'm also an advocate of Primal Command in the board; it's pretty incredible with Witness and it's a strong lifegain card--especially since you can Gifts for it, make your 5th land drop, then roll it out for 7 and tutor either a Finks, Witness, or Sun Titan. Which means you assume you get 2/3 of the other cards in the Gifts pile, but eventually you're going to get the Primal back with Witness and close the game).
I'm a big fan of Primal Command, and I'm also a big fan of Life from the loam. Here is why I do not maindeck them.
Life from the loam: Modern is an extremely aggressive format. I love loam, but it's literally useful in only 3 matchups, those being tron, scapeshift and UWR draw go. Against UWR draw go, it's good, but even then it's not an all-star. It's a completely dead card against most of the format in here since this deck does not play the requisite synergies to make it worthwhile maindeck. I just am not a fan of tapping out sorcery speed to play something that doesn't affect the board in any given way. If I had more flashback stuff, it might be decent, but that would require an impossible black splash, and would just become 4cc Gifts in the end, which would make it an entirely different archetype and deck goal.
Primal Command: I love the primal command witness loop. My main issue with it in here, is that as a gifts target, it becomes a 4 mana tutor to search for a 5 mana tutor, to search for a 3 mana recursion tutor, which after 3 turns can bring back a single card you need from the graveyard. That's 12+ total mana, which makes it incredibly slow and clunky. In other words, it's entirely way too expensive, and considering you can just Gifts for Witness, Snapcaster Mage, Sun Titan, and Reveillark and get the same recursion loop online, it's just empty space in here. This deck has a pretty high curve (that's generally it's weakness) and you really don't want to make it higher than you need to by adding more "heavy" cards to it. Keeping the curve low is important in modern control decks when trying to keep up with the highly aggressive decks in the format.
@Badd Business: Do you think Loam isn't worth running in the maindeck? If you're playing a pre-board game and you don't draw it randomly, it obviously doesn't affect you negatively because you either want to Gifts for it or you just don't Gifts for it. But if you draw it naturally, it's not a bad card; there are fetches, manlands, and wastelands to recur and dredging Loam is good with cards like Eternal Witness and Sun Titan. I realize Sun Titan does about the same thing later on, but having Loam in a draw just completely changes the depth of the way a deck can play--especially one with this much recursion.
I know that space is, as always, unbelievably limited in a deck with Gifts Ungiven. However, I would make the case that you would be opening a slot in the board by closing a spot in the main, and Loam (as a draw spell) is nearly always valuable.
I'm also an advocate of Primal Command in the board; it's pretty incredible with Witness and it's a strong lifegain card--especially since you can Gifts for it, make your 5th land drop, then roll it out for 7 and tutor either a Finks, Witness, or Sun Titan. Which means you assume you get 2/3 of the other cards in the Gifts pile, but eventually you're going to get the Primal back with Witness and close the game).
I think Primal Command can be worth something here. Drawing or gifting for it even though it's slow will give you time with 7 life (in most cases just win against aggro decks), fetch a witness or get rid of a planeswalker which I think deserves a look at considering the only other way we have to do that is with Cryptic Command. How about a singleton Detention Sphere in the SB as a catch-all removal that path, oust, ect cant hit and that can be brought back with Titan. With that, we'd be able to make a pile of Primal + Gifts + Sphere + Witness to bounce or exile a pesky planeswalker. It seems like Liliana could ruin this deck.
Edit: And if Coiling Oracle is mainly a filler that helps buy time, what about running more Kitchen Finks or Aven Riftwatcher for blockers and lifegain? Maybe -3 Coiling, +2 finks, +1 Angel. They come down a turn later but I feel like they do more and are better blink targets in general. I used to play a lot of U/W Venser Blink and even though it's a different deck, I always loved seeing them. Maybe even +1 snapcaster rather than angel. Snappy is really useful in general with all these spells we run even when not using him to set up gift piles.
Maybe even +1 snapcaster rather than angel. Snappy is really useful in general with all these spells we run even when not using him to set up gift piles.
After making some changes, I tested my new version against 2 tier-one decks. They were only casual games, but we still tried to play seriously.
All 3 games were played without Sideboard
In the first game I countered or removed almost everything he had. Although he managed to pod for Kitchen Finks, Eternal Witness and Ranger of Eos, I kept him under control with multiple Wrath effects. Then he resolved Melira and tried to cast Reveillark, which would have won him the game, if it hadn't been countered by mana leak. After that he had nothing left to cast or pod for and was easily defeated by Sun Titan.
The second game was really close. We both kept our initial hand and played a land at the first turn. Then he played an Cartel Aristocrat. Next turn he attacked me for to and tried to cast Melira which was countered by mana leak. The following turn he resolved Birthing Pod, while he kept attacking me with his Aristocrat. On his 5th turn he got his Kitchen Finks countered and his Birthing Pod bounced by Cryptic command. The following turns he resolved a second Pod and began Poding for Kitchen Finks and Murderous Redcap. He also managed to get Voice of Resurgence onto the battlefield. I managed to control his creatures with the help of Bant charm and gifting for 3 Wraths, until only 1 Voice Token survived. As I passed the turn he cast Chord of Calling searching for Kitchen Finks. On his turn he cast an additional creature and hit me for 6 bringing me down to zero.
The third game was also pretty close. Although I kept him under control he manage to bring me down to 2 life. He had Viscera Seer, some mana creatures and a Redcap on the field, while I had Sun Titan, Phantasmal Image (copying ST) and Eternal Witness. He copied my ST with his Phyrexian Metamorph bringing back his Eternal Witness, which got him Shriekmaw, which destroyed my Titan. Next turn I attacked with my Image which got me Eternal Witnes and Supreme Verdict. After I cleaned the board and pathing his persisted Redcap, I cast Reveillark and began beating hit him for 4 next turn. At the end of his turn I gifted for Vendilion Clique and Cryptic Command and Bant Charmed my Reveillark, which brought 2 Witnesses into play and Sun Titan and Cryptic Command into my hand.
In my turn I chained Sun Titan into Phantasmal Image into Vendilion Clique which revealed a Birthing pod, which stayed in his hand. I passed the turn leaving 4 mana open and he conceded.
All 3 Games were really close and interesting. Voice of Resurgence was extremely good, but not as good as expected, because my spells can "kill" it without getting my opponent a token. In addition it can be countered by Spell snare.
Unfortunately I couldn't play postboard games against him, because he forgot to bring his sideboard.
I only played two games against her, but this time with a postboard game.
Most of my card were dead against this deck, remove or counter his threats. However, I got mana screwed and was soon finshed by Emrakul.
For Game 2 I boarded in Life from the Loam, Negate and other things that are at least more relevant in this matchup than Wrath of God. This match was over pretty quilckly, due to the Loam-Ghostquarter lock, while keeping mana up to Negate her Relic of Progenitus. I finally won by keeping the lock up while beating with Sun Titan.
Tron was a really bad matchup, but still winable. My list contains so many cards, which are not relevant in this matchup that I have to board in even Kitchen Finks, which is still one of the better cards. Life from the Loam was incredible.
Interesting report. I definitely think you could use some shadow of doubts and aven mindcensors in your sideboard. They would do wonders in both of these matchups.
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I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Eternal Witness + Familiar's Ruse = 5 mana infinite replayable counters to create a little late game lock, which I think is just too awesome to not run at least 1 of. Ruse works well with all these ETB creatures too, the bounce can often be a plus.
This is what I've been playing with a lot of success.
I am still playing this deck.
In my opinion this deck is not as reliant on it's graveyard and Gifts Ungiven as 4cc gifts and thus not so easy hate out. However, I am not sure which one is better.
I feel like it's getting better and better the more I play it and learn how to best set up piles for any situation. Either way, playing this deck is the most fun I've had in magic in a while. There's something that feels so good about toolboxing with gifts, having answers for almost any situation and reusing the GY for so much card advantage and recurring late game that it almost feels unfair. Here's what I'm playing now.
I just finished like an hour long game against Soulsisters where he got to 50+ life but I just kept getting answer after answer and eventually won by recurring Phantasmal Images on titan into witnesses into removal ect over and over again. I played it extremely aggressively late game with the Images and witnesses because getting them killed just gave me more fuel while I chipped away at his board. Pulse of the Fields is one of my favorite SB cards and let me get to 40+ life myself quite easily which was pretty funny. I almost always bring in the third Wrath from the SB against aggro decks because a pile of DoJ, Supreme, Wrath and Timely or Pulse is pretty tough to beat.
I went back to running Coiling Oracle over more Finks because I realized I underestimated the ramp and CA of them. They come in handy against the aggressive decks that let you cast Gifts a turn sooner or block and draw you an answer. Most dumb aggro decks are still easy enough without the lifegain as are control and combo MU's since it's not needed.
Most t1/t2 MU's feel pretty good, the one that gives me the most difficulty, like other people have said is definitely Jund though. I have the 1 Timely Reinforcements MB to give me some breathing room but t1 Thoughtsieze and t3 Lilliana screw my game up pretty quickly. Of all archetypes, discard is definitely the one I hate to see the most. I'll probably need a 3'rd snare; Pithing Needle and Halo in the SB are partly for Lilliana. I almost want to add in a Leyline of Sanctity in the SB almost but I'm not sure where.
I feel like it's getting better and better the more I play it and learn how to best set up piles for any situation. Either way, playing this deck is the most fun I've had in magic in a while. There's something that feels so good about toolboxing with gifts, having answers for almost any situation and reusing the GY for so much card advantage and recurring late game that it almost feels unfair. Here's what I'm playing now.
I just finished like an hour long game against Soulsisters where he got to 50+ life but I just kept getting answer after answer and eventually won by recurring Phantasmal Images on titan into witnesses into removal ect over and over again. I played it extremely aggressively late game with the Images and witnesses because getting them killed just gave me more fuel while I chipped away at his board. Pulse of the Fields is one of my favorite SB cards and let me get to 40+ life myself quite easily which was pretty funny. I almost always bring in the third Wrath from the SB against aggro decks because a pile of DoJ, Supreme, Wrath and Timely or Pulse is pretty tough to beat.
I went back to running Coiling Oracle over more Finks because I realized I underestimated the ramp and CA of them. They come in handy against the aggressive decks that let you cast Gifts a turn sooner or block and draw you an answer. Most dumb aggro decks are still easy enough without the lifegain as are control and combo MU's since it's not needed.
Most t1/t2 MU's feel pretty good, the one that gives me the most difficulty, like other people have said is definitely Jund though. I have the 1 Timely Reinforcements MB to give me some breathing room but t1 Thoughtsieze and t3 Lilliana screw my game up pretty quickly. Of all archetypes, discard is definitely the one I hate to see the most. I'll probably need a 3'rd snare; Pithing Needle and Halo in the SB are partly for Lilliana. I almost want to add in a Leyline of Sanctity in the SB almost but I'm not sure where.
If discard is giving you problems, I would suggest playing a few Obstinate Baloths in the sideboard. Not only are they great against Liliana, they're strong cards to bring in against just about any aggro deck, and work really well with the blink and recursion effects going on in here.
I also would be sure to have a few mindcensors and shadow of doubts in the sideboard. They're some of the most versatile cards you can put in a blue / white sideboard these days as they can help quite a bit against birthing pod, tron, and scapeshift.
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I really like this deck, I whipped up a casual budget version and I would love some feedback. The highlights that are different from what I see other people running are the following: Planar Cleansing is another board wipe that doubles as an answer to planeswalkers and enchantments. Pulse of the Fields which hurts burn so bad it's not even funny. I also am running Sakura-Tribe Elder over Coiling Oracle, the early ramp and fixing (especially because I'm on a mana budget) is just wonderful. Gideon Jura because I felt the deck was a little light on win conditions and when put in packages, players will constantly want to put him in the graveyard. Any thoughts on those specific cards?
Anyway, here's my build, my circle is not especially competitive, but we do play Modern legal, no sideboards though,
I really like this deck, I whipped up a casual budget version and I would love some feedback. The highlights that are different from what I see other people running are the following: Planar Cleansing is another board wipe that doubles as an answer to planeswalkers and enchantments. Pulse of the Fields which hurts burn so bad it's not even funny. I also am running Sakura-Tribe Elder over Coiling Oracle, the early ramp and fixing (especially because I'm on a mana budget) is just wonderful. Gideon Jura because I felt the deck was a little light on win conditions and when put in packages, players will constantly want to put him in the graveyard. Any thoughts on those specific cards?
Anyway, here's my build, my circle is not especially competitive, but we do play Modern legal, no sideboards though,
Doesn't look bad for a budget variant, but I can tell you right now your manabase is going to be very rough, especially when you need double green for eternal witness. If you're going with a more basic manabase, you may want to simply play 4x Sakura Tribe Elder since they help your mana fixing a ton.
Outside that, you'll probably have some problems dealing with combo decks in a more competitive meta with only 6 maindeck counterspell effects, but if you aren't seeing tons of combo, it shouldn't be as much of an issue.
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Is there any way I could make the land base more consistent without spending a lot of money? What do you think about the packages and the different choices?
Is there any way I could make the land base more consistent without spending a lot of money? What do you think about the packages and the different choices?
Not too sure, i'm definitely not an expert on budget lands and such. Sorry
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Gonna try this list at FNM tomorrow, but a couple questions first:
How vital is remand? I have them, just not sure if I want to tear them out of my tron deck atm (as someone might be using it tomorrow). I was thinking instead of upping the count of Mana Leak and Familiar's Ruse.
Also, I had a couple other ideas, not sure if anyone has tried them yet or not.
Selesnya Charm- Seems like it could do good work here. Maybe in place of oust?
Blade Splicer- Getting it back via either Lark or Sun Titan seems good, may give the option to put more of a beatdown on opponent. Doesn't seem 'too cute,' but I could be wrong there.
I decided to cut Planar Cleansing, I was one card over, and I don't really need it to make a gifts package where I get a board wipe. Been doing a little testing, Gideon Jura is an allstar here and no one ever wants to put him into your hand when he's in a gifts package.
@Fergy57: I really think Oust needs to stay, especially over Selesnya Charm. Being able to get rid of Deathrite Shaman and mana dorks on turn one potentially is huge, even if it's just for a few turns. Also what I love about Oust in this format, is it discourages our opponent to crack fetch lands for a few turns because they don't want to lose they card we used Oust on forever.
I decided to cut Planar Cleansing, I was one card over, and I don't really need it to make a gifts package where I get a board wipe. Been doing a little testing, Gideon Jura is an allstar here and no one ever wants to put him into your hand when he's in a gifts package.
@Fergy57: I really think Oust needs to stay, especially over Selesnya Charm. Being able to get rid of Deathrite Shaman and mana dorks on turn one potentially is huge, even if it's just for a few turns. Also what I love about Oust in this format, is it discourages our opponent to crack fetch lands for a few turns because they don't want to lose they card we used Oust on forever.
Oust is very underrated. It's efficient, and it can actually help mana screw opponents on certain occasions. If you oust something like noble hierarch, it then becomes a terrible draw when get grab it in 2 turns, so it's a strong card especially against green-based aggro decks where you can oust a 1 drop and screw their draws over when they draw a birds of paradise or wall of roots later on.
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I've played the deck several times this weekend, to be honest it is overpeforming and hasn't really been losing much. I played against Elves, Wurms, Soul Sisters, White/Blue Contol and Green Tokens
Generally I would play Gifts Ungiven on turn 4 or 5 and find 3 board wipes and Eternal Witness and on turn 7 or 8 I would find Sun Titan and other win conditions. I found that the majority of the games I won with Gideon Jura rather than Sun Titan and in some instances on turn 4 or 5 I would do a pile like Wrath of God/Supreme Verdict/Gideon Jura/Eternal Witness. Against Control I would generally tutor for counters, spot removal and Gideon Jura. I don't really have an answer for enchantments and planeswalkers, I'm considering putting in an answer, something like Bramblecrush or Acidic Slime. I haven't played against burn yet, but I'm considering taking out Pulse of the Fields for a lifegain card that also does something else so it's not totally useless in other match ups. Maybe Lone Missionary? 4 life for two mana, swings for two and can chump block.
For what it's worth, even though my build is budget friendly, I haven't really had any mana problems (although my play circle does allow one casual mulligan I use sometimes). Sakura-Tribe Elder is incredibly helpful, and I would strongly suggest all decks to test him, being able to Gifts on turn 3 instead of turn 4 is pretty awesome. Speaking of mulligans, what type of hands do you prefer to keep, what's your ideal hand, a good hand, decent hand, etc. how many lands, etc.
The manlands are helpful, and sometimes I'll put them in a package and get them back later with Sun Titan actually. Celestial Colonnade is winning me some games. If I draw Phantasmal Image early game, sometimes I'll use him early to copy something like an opponent's Birds of Paradise or something, it's a surprisingly versatile card.
I'm still looking for feedback and analysis on this deck guys, I really have a lot of fun playing this deck. I really want it to be strong, everything in this thread been so helpful so far.
Render Silent could be cool, I'd probably replace deprive with it.
I still play this deck online every now and then and it still amazes me how versatile it is. That's my favorite thing about this deck, it just feels like it doesn't have any bad matchups, especially after SB. There are so many possible plays and answers for different things and situations that wins mostly come down to skill rather than topdecking some ridiculous combo or something overpowered but flimsy.
Loam package is honestly 95% for tron. But I will occasionally bring it in with any grindy matchup where I don't need wraths. Against UWR draw-go, it's typically a great card in place of supreme verdict if you know they aren't playing Geist of Saint Traft, especially since they depend on their colonnades to win most of the time. As for countering tron's plays, I counter whatever I can typically. If I can prevent them from scrying to set up tron, I will most of the time, but it's not like that's a rule. Everything is situational, and that depends what else is in your hand, and at what point the game's state is. I usually just try to delay them from getting their big plays online as long as I can until I can set up a gifts + ghost quarter + tec edge package to win the game. One good thing is that remands and deprives are much more powerful against tron than mana leak is.
Runed halo isn't too bad against infect. With sideboarding in this deck, it usually comes down to a decision of whether it's "better than another card" in which there are a few cards such as Remand where it's much more effective here. Infect really plays only 3-4 separate threats, so it can act as a pseudo removal spell against inkmoth, blighted agent, or glistener elf.
As for timely reinforcements, the tokens help a ton. Against geist of saint traft decks, it forces them to remove 2 tokens just to protect their geist, and they also trade with snapcasters, confidants, and just buy you time you need to set up your recursion engines. You also will usually be able to recur it after the first play via snapcaster, or witness, so it's often played a few times once you draw the first. Against RDW, it's obivously powerful if for no other reason than gaining 6 life.
Against most midrange decks in the format, you just want to buy time to get to the late-game. Not counting tron, there are very few decks in the format that have as much late-game inevitability as this deck does when played right. Because of that, playing chump blockers like Eternal Witness, Coiling Oracle, and Timely Reinforcements is especially powerful. Against BG midrange, the only 2 cards that really matter in the early to mid-game are Liliana and Dark Confidant. You can deal with everything else they play without falling behind except these two cards, so it's important to plan to deal with them before they come into play.
I know that space is, as always, unbelievably limited in a deck with Gifts Ungiven. However, I would make the case that you would be opening a slot in the board by closing a spot in the main, and Loam (as a draw spell) is nearly always valuable.
I'm also an advocate of Primal Command in the board; it's pretty incredible with Witness and it's a strong lifegain card--especially since you can Gifts for it, make your 5th land drop, then roll it out for 7 and tutor either a Finks, Witness, or Sun Titan. Which means you assume you get 2/3 of the other cards in the Gifts pile, but eventually you're going to get the Primal back with Witness and close the game).
I'm a big fan of Primal Command, and I'm also a big fan of Life from the loam. Here is why I do not maindeck them.
Life from the loam: Modern is an extremely aggressive format. I love loam, but it's literally useful in only 3 matchups, those being tron, scapeshift and UWR draw go. Against UWR draw go, it's good, but even then it's not an all-star. It's a completely dead card against most of the format in here since this deck does not play the requisite synergies to make it worthwhile maindeck. I just am not a fan of tapping out sorcery speed to play something that doesn't affect the board in any given way. If I had more flashback stuff, it might be decent, but that would require an impossible black splash, and would just become 4cc Gifts in the end, which would make it an entirely different archetype and deck goal.
Primal Command: I love the primal command witness loop. My main issue with it in here, is that as a gifts target, it becomes a 4 mana tutor to search for a 5 mana tutor, to search for a 3 mana recursion tutor, which after 3 turns can bring back a single card you need from the graveyard. That's 12+ total mana, which makes it incredibly slow and clunky. In other words, it's entirely way too expensive, and considering you can just Gifts for Witness, Snapcaster Mage, Sun Titan, and Reveillark and get the same recursion loop online, it's just empty space in here. This deck has a pretty high curve (that's generally it's weakness) and you really don't want to make it higher than you need to by adding more "heavy" cards to it. Keeping the curve low is important in modern control decks when trying to keep up with the highly aggressive decks in the format.
I think Primal Command can be worth something here. Drawing or gifting for it even though it's slow will give you time with 7 life (in most cases just win against aggro decks), fetch a witness or get rid of a planeswalker which I think deserves a look at considering the only other way we have to do that is with Cryptic Command. How about a singleton Detention Sphere in the SB as a catch-all removal that path, oust, ect cant hit and that can be brought back with Titan. With that, we'd be able to make a pile of Primal + Gifts + Sphere + Witness to bounce or exile a pesky planeswalker. It seems like Liliana could ruin this deck.
Edit: And if Coiling Oracle is mainly a filler that helps buy time, what about running more Kitchen Finks or Aven Riftwatcher for blockers and lifegain? Maybe -3 Coiling, +2 finks, +1 Angel. They come down a turn later but I feel like they do more and are better blink targets in general. I used to play a lot of U/W Venser Blink and even though it's a different deck, I always loved seeing them. Maybe even +1 snapcaster rather than angel. Snappy is really useful in general with all these spells we run even when not using him to set up gift piles.
Something like this:
2 Spell Snare
3 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Cryptic Command
1 Bant Charm
1 Oust
3 Path to Exile
1 Condemn
1 Deprive
1 Primal Command
creatures
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sun Titan
2 Restoration Angel
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Reveillark
3 Eternal Witness
3 Flooded Grove
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Seachrome Coast
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Detention Sphere
1 Lone Missionary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Nature's Claim
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Runed Halo
1 Nevermore
1 Lifegift
2 Spellskite
Maybe even +1 snapcaster rather than angel. Snappy is really useful in general with all these spells we run even when not using him to set up gift piles.
Interesting report. I definitely think you could use some shadow of doubts and aven mindcensors in your sideboard. They would do wonders in both of these matchups.
This is what I've been playing with a lot of success.
9 Removal/bounce
9 counters
2 Spell Snare
3 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Cryptic Command
3 Path to Exile
1 Condemn
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Familiar's Ruse
Sorceries (4)
1 Oust
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Primal Command
1 Wrath of God
Creatures (14)
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sun Titan
2 Restoration Angel
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Reveillark
2 Eternal Witness
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Flooded Grove
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Island
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nature's Claim
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Runed Halo
1 Nevermore
2 Spellskite
1 Detention Sphere
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Day of Judgment
1 Negate
1 Ghost Quarter
I feel like it's getting better and better the more I play it and learn how to best set up piles for any situation. Either way, playing this deck is the most fun I've had in magic in a while. There's something that feels so good about toolboxing with gifts, having answers for almost any situation and reusing the GY for so much card advantage and recurring late game that it almost feels unfair. Here's what I'm playing now.
2 Spell Snare
3 Remand
2 Mana Leak
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Cryptic Command
1 Bant Charm
3 Path to Exile
1 Condemn
1 Deprive
Sorceries
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Oust
1 Timely Reinforcements
Creatures
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Sun Titan
1 Restoration Angel
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Reveillark
3 Coiling Oracle
3 Eternal Witness
3 Flooded Grove
2 Celestial Colonnade
2 Stirring Wildwood
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Seachrome Coast
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nature's Claim
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Runed Halo
1 Nevermore
1 Negate
1 Day of Judgment
1 Lone Missionary
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spell Pierce
1 Damping Matrix
I just finished like an hour long game against Soulsisters where he got to 50+ life but I just kept getting answer after answer and eventually won by recurring Phantasmal Images on titan into witnesses into removal ect over and over again. I played it extremely aggressively late game with the Images and witnesses because getting them killed just gave me more fuel while I chipped away at his board. Pulse of the Fields is one of my favorite SB cards and let me get to 40+ life myself quite easily which was pretty funny. I almost always bring in the third Wrath from the SB against aggro decks because a pile of DoJ, Supreme, Wrath and Timely or Pulse is pretty tough to beat.
I went back to running Coiling Oracle over more Finks because I realized I underestimated the ramp and CA of them. They come in handy against the aggressive decks that let you cast Gifts a turn sooner or block and draw you an answer. Most dumb aggro decks are still easy enough without the lifegain as are control and combo MU's since it's not needed.
Most t1/t2 MU's feel pretty good, the one that gives me the most difficulty, like other people have said is definitely Jund though. I have the 1 Timely Reinforcements MB to give me some breathing room but t1 Thoughtsieze and t3 Lilliana screw my game up pretty quickly. Of all archetypes, discard is definitely the one I hate to see the most. I'll probably need a 3'rd snare; Pithing Needle and Halo in the SB are partly for Lilliana. I almost want to add in a Leyline of Sanctity in the SB almost but I'm not sure where.
If discard is giving you problems, I would suggest playing a few Obstinate Baloths in the sideboard. Not only are they great against Liliana, they're strong cards to bring in against just about any aggro deck, and work really well with the blink and recursion effects going on in here.
I also would be sure to have a few mindcensors and shadow of doubts in the sideboard. They're some of the most versatile cards you can put in a blue / white sideboard these days as they can help quite a bit against birthing pod, tron, and scapeshift.
Anyway, here's my build, my circle is not especially competitive, but we do play Modern legal, no sideboards though,
4x Gifts Ungiven
4x Eternal Witness
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Wall of Omens
2x Dissipate
2x Mana Leak
2x Spell Snare
2x Bant Charm
1x Oust
3x Path to Exile
1x Condemn
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Pulse of the Fields
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Day of Judgment
1x Planar Cleansing
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wrath of God
1x Reveillark
1x Sun Titan
1x Phantasmal Image
1x Gideon Jura
4x Forest
2x Glacial Fortress
6x Island
5x Plains
1x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Stirring Wildwood (Alternate Win Condition)
2x Sunpetal Grove
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Doesn't look bad for a budget variant, but I can tell you right now your manabase is going to be very rough, especially when you need double green for eternal witness. If you're going with a more basic manabase, you may want to simply play 4x Sakura Tribe Elder since they help your mana fixing a ton.
Outside that, you'll probably have some problems dealing with combo decks in a more competitive meta with only 6 maindeck counterspell effects, but if you aren't seeing tons of combo, it shouldn't be as much of an issue.
Is there any way I could make the land base more consistent without spending a lot of money? What do you think about the packages and the different choices?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Not too sure, i'm definitely not an expert on budget lands and such. Sorry
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist
How vital is remand? I have them, just not sure if I want to tear them out of my tron deck atm (as someone might be using it tomorrow). I was thinking instead of upping the count of Mana Leak and Familiar's Ruse.
Also, I had a couple other ideas, not sure if anyone has tried them yet or not.
Selesnya Charm- Seems like it could do good work here. Maybe in place of oust?
Blade Splicer- Getting it back via either Lark or Sun Titan seems good, may give the option to put more of a beatdown on opponent. Doesn't seem 'too cute,' but I could be wrong there.
@Fergy57: I really think Oust needs to stay, especially over Selesnya Charm. Being able to get rid of Deathrite Shaman and mana dorks on turn one potentially is huge, even if it's just for a few turns. Also what I love about Oust in this format, is it discourages our opponent to crack fetch lands for a few turns because they don't want to lose they card we used Oust on forever.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Oust is very underrated. It's efficient, and it can actually help mana screw opponents on certain occasions. If you oust something like noble hierarch, it then becomes a terrible draw when get grab it in 2 turns, so it's a strong card especially against green-based aggro decks where you can oust a 1 drop and screw their draws over when they draw a birds of paradise or wall of roots later on.
Generally I would play Gifts Ungiven on turn 4 or 5 and find 3 board wipes and Eternal Witness and on turn 7 or 8 I would find Sun Titan and other win conditions. I found that the majority of the games I won with Gideon Jura rather than Sun Titan and in some instances on turn 4 or 5 I would do a pile like Wrath of God/Supreme Verdict/Gideon Jura/Eternal Witness. Against Control I would generally tutor for counters, spot removal and Gideon Jura. I don't really have an answer for enchantments and planeswalkers, I'm considering putting in an answer, something like Bramblecrush or Acidic Slime. I haven't played against burn yet, but I'm considering taking out Pulse of the Fields for a lifegain card that also does something else so it's not totally useless in other match ups. Maybe Lone Missionary? 4 life for two mana, swings for two and can chump block.
For what it's worth, even though my build is budget friendly, I haven't really had any mana problems (although my play circle does allow one casual mulligan I use sometimes). Sakura-Tribe Elder is incredibly helpful, and I would strongly suggest all decks to test him, being able to Gifts on turn 3 instead of turn 4 is pretty awesome. Speaking of mulligans, what type of hands do you prefer to keep, what's your ideal hand, a good hand, decent hand, etc. how many lands, etc.
The manlands are helpful, and sometimes I'll put them in a package and get them back later with Sun Titan actually. Celestial Colonnade is winning me some games. If I draw Phantasmal Image early game, sometimes I'll use him early to copy something like an opponent's Birds of Paradise or something, it's a surprisingly versatile card.
I'm still looking for feedback and analysis on this deck guys, I really have a lot of fun playing this deck. I really want it to be strong, everything in this thread been so helpful so far.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
I still play this deck online every now and then and it still amazes me how versatile it is. That's my favorite thing about this deck, it just feels like it doesn't have any bad matchups, especially after SB. There are so many possible plays and answers for different things and situations that wins mostly come down to skill rather than topdecking some ridiculous combo or something overpowered but flimsy.
I've tested Familiar Ruse a lot, it's insane with Eternal Witness, and maindeck worthy.
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate