WoTC reprinted Leyline of the Void. Could this mean they want Hogaak to stay in modern?
They have long since shown they are OK with the level of graveyard abuse, and do not see any current decks as a problem. They will likely hand-waive off Hogaak, just like they do Neoform. Unless it takes like 4+ Top 8 slots in back to back to back GPs thanks to London Mulligan, then maybe they might pretend like they care about all the fast combos and GY abuse. They'll share some stern words, and tell us "help is on the way in upcoming sets!" Meanwhile innocuous, fair, and considerably less powerful cards continue to rot on the banned list.
I think this is just WotC reminding people that graveyard hate exists. It also makes me a bit worried that the next standard set might be really yard heavy.
Yeah, is it a value reprint, or a safety value for even more powerful Standard? Could be interesting.
I’m still trying to understand all of this hype for Bridgevine, to be honest. It may be due the strategies I’m running atm, but it has been a great matchup for me either playing Bloo, Izzet Phoenix and Pitch Blue. It seems like it’s also soft to Mono Red Phoenix, and UW after sideboard isn’t a great one either (at least, if people start using 3-4 Force of Negation between main and side instead of being cute with Dovin’s Veto).
I predict one month of time before it will start falling like Death’s Shadow and Hollow One did in the past two years.
They have long since shown they are OK with the level of graveyard abuse, and do not see any current decks as a problem. They will likely hand-waive off Hogaak, just like they do Neoform. Unless it takes like 4+ Top 8 slots in back to back to back GPs thanks to London Mulligan, then maybe they might pretend like they care about all the fast combos and GY abuse. They'll share some stern words, and tell us "help is on the way in upcoming sets!" Meanwhile innocuous, fair, and considerably less powerful cards continue to rot on the banned list.
Neoform has 1 appearance in the last two MTGO Challenge top 32s, so it is not comparable with Hogaak. It is not safe to assume that WotC is OK with a lot of graveyard.
Quote from WotC on banning GGT »
Golgari Grave-Troll—Dredge, the mechanic and the deck, has a negative impact on Modern by pushing the format too far toward a battle of sideboards. With the printing of Cathartic Reunion and Prized Amalgam, the deck once again became unhealthy for the format. While those cards were discussed, the real offender always has been the dredge mechanic itself.
(at least, if people start using 3-4 Force of Negation between main and side instead of being cute with Dovin’s Veto).
I think between the two, the "cute" spell is Force, not Veto. I've been jamming lots of UW on MTGO the last few days, and Veto frequently feels good (especially in the face of Pact of Negation decks, and those running their own Force). Out of every game and every match, there was only one instance where I wish I had a Force, and I ended up winning the match 2-1 anyway. Force is greatly overrated and in no way is worth its cost. At least in my experience.
I had a very different experience. You don’t edge for the mirror (where Veto is better, mostly) when the format is 95% about something else. In the same way we see Force of Will instead of Cryptic Command in Legacy, even though Cryptic is better vs BGx.
Force has its place, but it has been wildly underwhelming every time I saw it in hand. I will likely run 0 main and 1-2 side. Assuming I don't just outright sell them. $30 a piece? Meh.
So yeah I spent the greater part of the workday trying to get myself excited to play modern and I ended up not going. The thought of playing against decks like phoenix and hogaak is just not appealing anymore. This is exactly what I didn't like about the format when I first got into it competitively, was that there were decks like bloom that demanded answers on turns 1-2 or they executed a win and sometimes they needed multiple answers and won anyway (I started playing competitively just before bloom really blew up and shortly thereafter ate a ban). I dunno if one card is going to be enough to entice me to hang around if they ban something during the announcement...at this point there are multiple things I want to see gone.
It's pretty telling how I get excited for a card like goblin engineer and then realize my opponent will have milled me out or presented a lethal amount of zombies and hogaaks on the board before I can even cast him in most games.
Force has its place, but it has been wildly underwhelming every time I saw it in hand. I will likely run 0 main and 1-2 side. Assuming I don't just outright sell them. $30 a piece? Meh.
I don’t see how a card’s cost has anything to do with competitive talks.
Then people start complaining about unfair decks. Let’s say you are looking for it.
Force has been great for me as a 4 of in RUG Delver. I may slim to 3, but the card does stuff other cards don't do in decks that present a clock turn 1 or 2 but also want to interact.
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EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Force has its place, but it has been wildly underwhelming every time I saw it in hand. I will likely run 0 main and 1-2 side. Assuming I don't just outright sell them. $30 a piece? Meh.
I don’t see how a card’s cost has anything to do with competitive talks.
My decision to run 0 main and 1-2 side has nothing to do with cost, it's because I don't feel it is a card worth playing. I'd rather have $30 back than watch extra copies sit unused in my trade folder. Not sure how you get anything else from that comment.
But then you complain the whole time about how unfair is Modern. A living contradiction.
I think it's not good enough because only being free on opponent's turn and not hitting creatures is a big deal. Yes, it's "better" than some other options, but its drawbacks are glaring when they arise.
Edit: To clarify, this card basically trades out with any copies of Negate that a deck is playing. I don't think it's better than Veto in decks that can cast it, because Pact of Negation is played in many combo decks as protection, and the likelihood of absolutely needed to counter something on T1 or 2 on the draw is a worthwhile risk for uncounterable, IMO. If you don't, then you don't have an LGS full of combo decks running Pact of Negation.
‘Many Combo decks’? It may be your particular metagame, which doesn’t represent Modern in the slightest. Pact of Negation strategies are actually out of the metagame. And, even if it was the opposite, only Ad Nauseam casts them in your turn, cause the new Grishoalbrand and Amulet Titan (which is the only one worth considering at the moment) are playing them to protect their Combo in their own turn.
the likelihood of absolutely needed to counter something on T1 or 2 on the draw is a worthwhile risk for uncounterable
I start to think you’re doing it on purpose. Holding a crusade against ‘degenerate things that happen in Modern’ and then... this. Okay. Not worth replying anymore.
What are the chances that Wizards bans Faithless Looting to curb the graveyard abusing decks, similar to how they banned Ponder and Preordain to weaken the UR combo decks?
What are the chances that Wizards bans Faithless Looting to curb the graveyard abusing decks, similar to how they banned Ponder and Preordain to weaken the UR combo decks?
Less than zero. They would kill 7-8 archetypes in one-go, not just one. Unless they also print some other fodder.
Edit: To clarify, this card basically trades out with any copies of Negate that a deck is playing. I don't think it's better than Veto in decks that can cast it, because Pact of Negation is played in many combo decks as protection, and the likelihood of absolutely needed to counter something on T1 or 2 on the draw is a worthwhile risk for uncounterable, IMO. If you don't, then you don't have an LGS full of combo decks running Pact of Negation.
Is your meta like 100% Ad Nauseam? I don't get it. Veto has some utility, sure, but Force allows you to do things heretofore basically impossible in Modern. Think about all the busted, sorcery-speed things happening across the table from you. Force allows you to tap out for a threat or walker, then counter their Manamorphose / Neoform / Altar of Dementia / Faithless Looting / planeswalker / Aether Vial / Hardened Scales / Ensnaring Bridge / whatever noncreature makes you lose the game.
The card disadvantage does not matter one bit if you're pitching a card to stop the thing that wins them the game. Think about all the busted decks in Modern, and then think about how smart you felt as you died with 5 cards in hand on turn 3.
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Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
What are the chances that Wizards bans Faithless Looting to curb the graveyard abusing decks, similar to how they banned Ponder and Preordain to weaken the UR combo decks?
Less than zero. They would kill 7-8 archetypes in one-go, not just one. Unless they also print some other fodder.
Agreed. There is zero chance they ban looting unless they want to simply turn Modern completely inside out.
As to Force of Negation. I follow a few UWx types on Twitter, and the consensus appears to be that you can get away right now with up to 4 'negate' type effects, and the value is in a split between FoN, Pierce (as Modern is that fast right now) and Veto. I dont know why, in a hyper aggressive meta, one would be less than 2 FoN, at least that's what I'm going for to start with.
Edit: To clarify, this card basically trades out with any copies of Negate that a deck is playing. I don't think it's better than Veto in decks that can cast it, because Pact of Negation is played in many combo decks as protection, and the likelihood of absolutely needed to counter something on T1 or 2 on the draw is a worthwhile risk for uncounterable, IMO. If you don't, then you don't have an LGS full of combo decks running Pact of Negation.
Is your meta like 100% Ad Nauseam? I don't get it. Veto has some utility, sure, but Force allows you to do things heretofore basically impossible in Modern. Think about all the busted, sorcery-speed things happening across the table from you. Force allows you to tap out for a threat or walker, then counter their Manamorphose / Neoform / Altar of Dementia / Faithless Looting / planeswalker / Aether Vial / Hardened Scales / Ensnaring Bridge / whatever noncreature makes you lose the game.
The card disadvantage does not matter one bit if you're pitching a card to stop the thing that wins them the game. Think about all the busted decks in Modern, and then think about how smart you felt as you died with 5 cards in hand on turn 3.
For sure this.
Lets not forget here what made UWx actually playable in 2018. It was the ability to progress your own board, and have a response, thanks to Teferi.
(Yes, I am well aware we also got Search, Jace, and FoR, but it was Teferi that was the glue.)
FoN performs the same thing. One of our own writers around here waxed long about it, Card Advantage in Modern is pointless.
If I'm going to prioritize a main deck card, I would prefer Veto or Pierce. I think both of those are better and more versatile than Force. Seems fine in the side, but far from "modern's saving grace on a pedestal" that people make it out to be. I didn't realize that was so damn controversial.
Saving grace, no. Unique effect in the format? 100%.
Pierce has been around since forever (to me) and Veto is just a cute way to win against others who are countering (that list cannot be long...) so what is it that you are going to lose to?
A deck that powers out things without paying, and you can never advance your own board so you are going to lose to inevitability. Granted, I'm playing next to 0 Magic right now anyway, but card advantage isnt the issue, a free negate is meaningful.
A deck that powers out things without paying, and you can never advance your own board so you are going to lose to inevitability. Granted, I'm playing next to 0 Magic right now anyway, but card advantage isnt the issue, a free negate is meaningful.
With a 6 month old, I get to play in paper maybe once every two weeks. I've been jamming a lot of MTGO now that summer is here, I'm no longer teaching, and pretty much spending time at home with the little one. And as I said a couple pages back, I don't pay money for leagues, so nothing has made my play experiences in Modern feel better than simply conceding miserable match after miserable match until I eventually stumble into fun games of Magic. Most recent glorious blast from the past was some stubborn fun-loving old folk jamming Jund, and it was awesome.
For extra fun in the practice room, don't concede because you dont like the matchup.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
For extra fun in the practice room, don't concede because you dont like the matchup.
If for example I Mulligan to 4, and have no meaningful interaction, or any meaningful clock, and the matchup is miserable, I move on with my life and go to the next match. My time and my sanity aren't worth stumbling through miserable Magic just for the sake of doing so. I rarely actually concede that early, but I have definitely done it, usually to a big Mulligan, and an explosive start from the opponent. Depending on the deck I might play a game 2 and on. I like to play games for fun, not to punish myself with misery and frustration.
By the way, right now Jund isn’t even a competitive Magic deck.
If I'm going to prioritize a main deck card, I would prefer Veto or Pierce. I think both of those are better and more versatile than Force. Seems fine in the side, but far from "modern's saving grace on a pedestal" that people make it out to be. I didn't realize that was so damn controversial.
Let’s keep it at facts. Facts say that Dovin’s Veto is the less versatile between the cards you mentioned, cause it has a fringe application only against Ux based strategies. You know what stops people from doing unfair things in Modern? A cc 0 Force of Negation.
By the way, right now Jund isn’t even a competitive Magic deck.
If I'm going to prioritize a main deck card, I would prefer Veto or Pierce. I think both of those are better and more versatile than Force. Seems fine in the side, but far from "modern's saving grace on a pedestal" that people make it out to be. I didn't realize that was so damn controversial.
Let’s keep it at facts. Facts say that Dovin’s Veto is the less versatile between the cards you mentioned, cause it has a fringe application only against Ux based strategies. You know what stops people from doing unfair things in Modern? A cc 0 Force of Negation.
Why do you say that? Jund has been fantastic from the new set. Wrenn is very much the real deal. Seasoned Pyromancer is huge value. BBE has been cut down to 2, some are debating on 0. Jund's actually feeling better than it has in a very long time.
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They have long since shown they are OK with the level of graveyard abuse, and do not see any current decks as a problem. They will likely hand-waive off Hogaak, just like they do Neoform. Unless it takes like 4+ Top 8 slots in back to back to back GPs thanks to London Mulligan, then maybe they might pretend like they care about all the fast combos and GY abuse. They'll share some stern words, and tell us "help is on the way in upcoming sets!" Meanwhile innocuous, fair, and considerably less powerful cards continue to rot on the banned list.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yeah, is it a value reprint, or a safety value for even more powerful Standard? Could be interesting.
Spirits
I predict one month of time before it will start falling like Death’s Shadow and Hollow One did in the past two years.
Neoform has 1 appearance in the last two MTGO Challenge top 32s, so it is not comparable with Hogaak. It is not safe to assume that WotC is OK with a lot of graveyard.
I think between the two, the "cute" spell is Force, not Veto. I've been jamming lots of UW on MTGO the last few days, and Veto frequently feels good (especially in the face of Pact of Negation decks, and those running their own Force). Out of every game and every match, there was only one instance where I wish I had a Force, and I ended up winning the match 2-1 anyway. Force is greatly overrated and in no way is worth its cost. At least in my experience.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
It's pretty telling how I get excited for a card like goblin engineer and then realize my opponent will have milled me out or presented a lethal amount of zombies and hogaaks on the board before I can even cast him in most games.
I don’t see how a card’s cost has anything to do with competitive talks.
Then people start complaining about unfair decks. Let’s say you are looking for it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
My decision to run 0 main and 1-2 side has nothing to do with cost, it's because I don't feel it is a card worth playing. I'd rather have $30 back than watch extra copies sit unused in my trade folder. Not sure how you get anything else from that comment.
Has there ever been a period of Modern you weren't optimistic about? I can't actually recall.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
But then you complain the whole time about how unfair is Modern. A living contradiction.
I think it's not good enough because only being free on opponent's turn and not hitting creatures is a big deal. Yes, it's "better" than some other options, but its drawbacks are glaring when they arise.
Edit: To clarify, this card basically trades out with any copies of Negate that a deck is playing. I don't think it's better than Veto in decks that can cast it, because Pact of Negation is played in many combo decks as protection, and the likelihood of absolutely needed to counter something on T1 or 2 on the draw is a worthwhile risk for uncounterable, IMO. If you don't, then you don't have an LGS full of combo decks running Pact of Negation.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I start to think you’re doing it on purpose. Holding a crusade against ‘degenerate things that happen in Modern’ and then... this. Okay. Not worth replying anymore.
Less than zero. They would kill 7-8 archetypes in one-go, not just one. Unless they also print some other fodder.
Is your meta like 100% Ad Nauseam? I don't get it. Veto has some utility, sure, but Force allows you to do things heretofore basically impossible in Modern. Think about all the busted, sorcery-speed things happening across the table from you. Force allows you to tap out for a threat or walker, then counter their Manamorphose / Neoform / Altar of Dementia / Faithless Looting / planeswalker / Aether Vial / Hardened Scales / Ensnaring Bridge / whatever noncreature makes you lose the game.
The card disadvantage does not matter one bit if you're pitching a card to stop the thing that wins them the game. Think about all the busted decks in Modern, and then think about how smart you felt as you died with 5 cards in hand on turn 3.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Agreed. There is zero chance they ban looting unless they want to simply turn Modern completely inside out.
As to Force of Negation. I follow a few UWx types on Twitter, and the consensus appears to be that you can get away right now with up to 4 'negate' type effects, and the value is in a split between FoN, Pierce (as Modern is that fast right now) and Veto. I dont know why, in a hyper aggressive meta, one would be less than 2 FoN, at least that's what I'm going for to start with.
For sure this.
Lets not forget here what made UWx actually playable in 2018. It was the ability to progress your own board, and have a response, thanks to Teferi.
(Yes, I am well aware we also got Search, Jace, and FoR, but it was Teferi that was the glue.)
FoN performs the same thing. One of our own writers around here waxed long about it, Card Advantage in Modern is pointless.
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Pierce has been around since forever (to me) and Veto is just a cute way to win against others who are countering (that list cannot be long...) so what is it that you are going to lose to?
A deck that powers out things without paying, and you can never advance your own board so you are going to lose to inevitability. Granted, I'm playing next to 0 Magic right now anyway, but card advantage isnt the issue, a free negate is meaningful.
Spirits
With a 6 month old, I get to play in paper maybe once every two weeks. I've been jamming a lot of MTGO now that summer is here, I'm no longer teaching, and pretty much spending time at home with the little one. And as I said a couple pages back, I don't pay money for leagues, so nothing has made my play experiences in Modern feel better than simply conceding miserable match after miserable match until I eventually stumble into fun games of Magic. Most recent glorious blast from the past was some stubborn fun-loving old folk jamming Jund, and it was awesome.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Let’s keep it at facts. Facts say that Dovin’s Veto is the less versatile between the cards you mentioned, cause it has a fringe application only against Ux based strategies. You know what stops people from doing unfair things in Modern? A cc 0 Force of Negation.
Why do you say that? Jund has been fantastic from the new set. Wrenn is very much the real deal. Seasoned Pyromancer is huge value. BBE has been cut down to 2, some are debating on 0. Jund's actually feeling better than it has in a very long time.