I keep saying it, but bans are not the answer. Bridge might have to go, or something else from the graveyard decks because Wizards can't go two sets without printing something that makes them problematic again, although that is more a competence issue than anything. But we need answers. the new Force cycle is a very real step in the right direction, although the blue one should get any spell. If we had Counterspell, StP, that kind of thing, Modern would be better because every color should have a way to fight these stupid broken decks. I don't know exactly what they would all look like, but we have most of the major Legacy threats, our answers should be of a similar level. I do like some of the Horizons stuff, especially the new Storm cards. that is what storm should always have been for, answers, not threats
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I miss the old days of Modern, back in 2014/2015, where I started playing the format. Where a turn 4 huntmaster was a strong play.
This Modern format feels disgustingly strong. I firmly believe 5 or more cards of the banlist would be a joke now.
Wizards has to act somehow, because the upcoming PT will be a mess.
I agree with this. I really wish back the time where Jund was T1, Goyf the best threat you could be playing on turn 2 and decks like Grixis Delver considered to be actually good... Modern as it stands now looks and feels awful for me but i firmly believe that WOTC will not change their design philosophy within the next upcoming sets.
As Legacy keeps getting more and more expensive i honestly think about just moving completely over to pauper for the forseeable future.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern // Legacy // Pauper WUBRG
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
Pretty hilarious for people to lose it over 1 deck. If Modern was fine (in some opinions) before Horizons, it's not like its fundamentally changed now. You increase your GY hate and continue to do what you did before. What's changed beyond that?
That is tremendously optimistic, given how powerful and prevalent creatures are to Modern. Negate does not solve any meaningful problems, even if it's "free" (only free on opponent's turn, costs you a card, card needs to be specifically blue).
That is tremendously optimistic, given how powerful and prevalent creatures are to Modern. Negate does not solve any meaningful problems, even if it's "free" (only free on opponent's turn, costs you a card, card needs to be specifically blue).
Hey man, it lets me tap out for Thing or Kiln Fiend, and then FoN on my opponents T3feri. Thats a huge win for fair decks everywhere.
Wizards has to act somehow, because the upcoming PT will be a mess.
Why? They have said numerous times that this is healthy. They're flatly wrong, but that's at least what people who run the format, and don't play the format, believe.
Well, it was healthy 1 month ago, they were right, and a bridge ban will make Modern healthy again. Plus FoN will make it more fair.
Are you serious? We cleeeearly need more data. The sky is not falling!!
I’m playing Bloo since the metagame shifted, and I can assure you that Force of Negation is bonkers against it. I’m currently 4-0 against Altarvine.
All I see is signs of a healthy metagame! Hmm, the metagame is indeed adapting, bloo is a great deck to represent Modern and be a tier1 deck. Hogaak 50% metashare, bloo 20%, etc. Niiiice :). Finally a format that rewards interaction and not just play solitary hoping to kill the opponent before he kills you!! Oh, and the hate cards lottery, oh boy, that makes it even better! Who likes the hogaak vs hogaak decided by who draws more leylines and whispmares? I do!
Yes, we need more data.
Yes, we need the meta to adjust and adapt (few months ago ‘omg Phoenix too broken, they are all over in the top8!’).
Yes, we need to chill out.
We will never have data. WOTC doesn't want us to have data because it allows us to quantify our horrid experiences on MTGO and competitive FNMs. Without data, people can just hand-waive those experiences away as flukes, and sell the idea that everything is fine and healthy because, who are we to say otherwise? What do we know? We don't have any meaningful data or proof.
We will have data though, easily enough to infer what is competitive, optimal, or just 'viable'.
You cannot look at 5-0s but SCG Top 16, Day 2s, Modern Classics, Modern Online Challenges (especially) and GP Top 16s are all meaningful data if you wish to metagame for Online or larger competitive events.
We will have data though, easily enough to infer what is competitive, optimal, or just 'viable'.
You cannot look at 5-0s but SCG Top 16, Day 2s, Modern Classics, Modern Online Challenges (especially) and GP Top 16s are all meaningful data if you wish to metagame for Online or larger competitive events.
I've done it, it's fine.
It's not worthwhile for FNM.
What data is going to even matter?
Ehh I guess. I'm just more sick of people saying things are fine and healthy, when they have not been for quite a while.
At least the nice thing about MTGO is that since I don't waste my money on Leagues, I have no qualms with right click -> concede match every few pairings. When I don't have to actually play against those rancid abominations, many of the games are almost fun.
Since we have so mutch grave hate, might aswell unban Golgari Grave-Troll and Dread Return. Just pack main board graveyard hate, its fine right?
While I appreciate what you are trying to do, you don't pour gas on a fire.
If Hogaak is the big thing (and it appears to be) then one would be a fool to not account for it. After we determine if one can hate it out, let's see then?
Yes, we all get it, it's obnoxious to run 6+ dedicated hate cards but that's life IF Hogaak remains popular.
If it works, and we can hate it out? Wizards won't care, and won't ban anything.
As to people who claim the format is healthy, well that's between them and their conscience.
I can only say that Wizards does not care how successful Dredge and Phoenix have been, and until shown otherwise I have zero reason to believe they will care about Hogaak, if we can suppress it.
Diva has something like a 60% win rate against it. Just accept it exists, and Ravenous Trap/Surgical/Void.
Wow! This thread really took off since I've been gone getting slaughtered at a MCQ.
Hogaak Vine just won the Gamers and Geeks 2005 Mustang GT tournament. The player was a player who I used to occasionally play with in California, but I see he's moved on. (I think the tournament was in Alabama) For what it's worth, you can look it up on Facebook.
Before the MCQ and in between rounds, I played it vs. a local player who runs Cheerios. After I beat him in the first game, he literally slaughtered me the next 3 games in a row. But players are not willing to make deck changes like this because, "who likes Cheerios?" He's happy for this type of meta. I am all right with this type of meta because I could move on to NeoBrand, which is just quicker than a deck like Hogaak Vine that has literally no disruption for NeoBrand in its 75. (sorry, 2 SB Thoughtseize)
If players are not willing to adjust like I've seen a million players here say again and again, then they DESERVE to lose. I'm sorry for being blunt. Players during Eldrazi Winter that played me usually were not willing to play the best deck. They usually lost. All they could say is that "it will get banned." Well, during that time in which I bought the Eldrazi pieces that I was missing (only the new ones), I netted $1,300 worth of cash and prizes. I'm okay with it getting banned. That was obvious. It didn't mean that I was going to force myself to lose before it does actually get banned.
I do think something is going to get banned in Hogaak Vine. I prefer a Modern Horizons card (Hogaak/Altar) because things were not really fine, but not bannable per se before this set. Carrion Feeder also definitely helped, but it's not the culprit.
Remember what I said about Ravenous Trap? Already went up from $3.40 to $5 so far. Not sure how far it can go, but makes sense that it is in an upward projectile currently, even if it is hard to buyout an uncommon.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
At this point, between bojuka bog, Extirpate, Surgical Extraction, nihil spellbomb and a few other fringe (that 1B instant, exile 4 transmute 1BB could be interesting somewhere?), black seems like the best sideboard color easily.
Leyline is gg when it lucks upon hand, but i don't really care for mulligan into win if it's not combo (and even then..
eh)
Wow! This thread really took off since I've been gone getting slaughtered at a MCQ.
Hogaak Vine just won the Gamers and Geeks 2005 Mustang GT tournament. The player was a player who I used to occasionally play with in California, but I see he's moved on. (I think the tournament was in Alabama) For what it's worth, you can look it up on Facebook.
Before the MCQ and in between rounds, I played it vs. a local player who runs Cheerios. After I beat him in the first game, he literally slaughtered me the next 3 games in a row. But players are not willing to make deck changes like this because, "who likes Cheerios?" He's happy for this type of meta. I am all right with this type of meta because I could move on to NeoBrand, which is just quicker than a deck like Hogaak Vine that has literally no disruption for NeoBrand in its 75. (sorry, 2 SB Thoughtseize)
If players are not willing to adjust like I've seen a million players here say again and again, then they DESERVE to lose. I'm sorry for being blunt. Players during Eldrazi Winter that played me usually were not willing to play the best deck. They usually lost. All they could say is that "it will get banned." Well, during that time in which I bought the Eldrazi pieces that I was missing (only the new ones), I netted $1,300 worth of cash and prizes. I'm okay with it getting banned. That was obvious. It didn't mean that I was going to force myself to lose before it does actually get banned.
I do think something is going to get banned in Hogaak Vine. I prefer a Modern Horizons card (Hogaak/Altar) because things were not really fine, but not bannable per se before this set. Carrion Feeder also definitely helped, but it's not the culprit.
*disclaimer - too early to ban - give it will the gp/pt/mc whatever they're called now*
Reading this thread I've been on the same train of thought.
Old cards were all 'fine' ie didn't get/deserve a ban.
Bridge has been in a long standing deck, banning it very lieely kills dredge and while plenty would celebrate we've all had decks banned out from under us and it's a horrendous experience. Bridge stays.
So that should have us focus on the new cards.
If we keep with WotC example of banking the enablers then Hogaak should be fine. Tbh I think people generally agree that it's just the payoff for other shenanigans.
Feeder - same good card but hardly back breaking even with bridge.
Now Altar of dementia is both new (people haven't necessarily picked it up in paper yet) and is an enabler that allows this deck to backdoor into a 2nd strategy. It is what enables this level of fast crazy in the deck and dodges interaction. Removing this would also force the deck to run more dredgers and be more a dredge iterations than this milling monster that beats you to death with x 2/2.
If players are not willing to adjust like I've seen a million players here say again and again, then they DESERVE to lose. I'm sorry for being blunt. Players during Eldrazi Winter that played me usually were not willing to play the best deck. They usually lost. All they could say is that "it will get banned." Well, during that time in which I bought the Eldrazi pieces that I was missing (only the new ones), I netted $1,300 worth of cash and prizes. I'm okay with it getting banned. That was obvious. It didn't mean that I was going to force myself to lose before it does actually get banned.
Refusing to straight up buy a new deck = deserve to lose because not willing to adjust? Is this a joke?
There were 2, maybe 3 decks during that period that could hang with Eldrazi. In a format as expensive as this, you seriously expect people to buy a new deck in the name of adjustment just to be able compete in some events?
This isn't being blunt, it's being stupid.
In some metas yeah, but using Eldrazi Winter as an example of players deserving to lose because of lack of adaptation is dumb af.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Four copies of Hogaak in the top 8, taking 1st to 3rd positions.
I still don't know whether it is a case of Eldrazi Winter or a case of Hollow One. Both decks were omnipresent but Hollow One decreased rapidly after the first few tournaments. Last week there were 11 Hogaak decks in the top 32, now only 6.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Now Altar of dementia is both new (people haven't necessarily picked it up in paper yet) and is an enabler that allows this deck to backdoor into a 2nd strategy. It is what enables this level of fast crazy in the deck and dodges interaction. Removing this would also force the deck to run more dredgers and be more a dredge iterations than this milling monster that beats you to death with x 2/2.
For me alter should be the card to go.
yeah. I also think the mill is the problem. Giving a second win con that's hard to deal with to an already powerful deck. I mean not many people play mill in modern? People are unprepared for this angle of attack.
May I ask, when is the next ban announcement? thanks.
Now Altar of dementia is both new (people haven't necessarily picked it up in paper yet) and is an enabler that allows this deck to backdoor into a 2nd strategy. It is what enables this level of fast crazy in the deck and dodges interaction. Removing this would also force the deck to run more dredgers and be more a dredge iterations than this milling monster that beats you to death with x 2/2.
For me alter should be the card to go.
yeah. I also think the mill is the problem. Giving a second win con that's hard to deal with to an already powerful deck. I mean not many people play mill in modern? People are unprepared for this angle of attack.
May I ask, when is the next ban announcement? thanks.
Spirits
I agree with this. I really wish back the time where Jund was T1, Goyf the best threat you could be playing on turn 2 and decks like Grixis Delver considered to be actually good... Modern as it stands now looks and feels awful for me but i firmly believe that WOTC will not change their design philosophy within the next upcoming sets.
As Legacy keeps getting more and more expensive i honestly think about just moving completely over to pauper for the forseeable future.
Modern // Legacy // Pauper
WUBRG
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
Spirits
That is tremendously optimistic, given how powerful and prevalent creatures are to Modern. Negate does not solve any meaningful problems, even if it's "free" (only free on opponent's turn, costs you a card, card needs to be specifically blue).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Hey man, it lets me tap out for Thing or Kiln Fiend, and then FoN on my opponents T3feri. Thats a huge win for fair decks everywhere.
Spirits
Yep. The number of decks that lose to a resolved Kiln Fiend right now, if you get to untap with it, is large.
As to the ban discussion, which again I find erroneous at this point, if one card getting banned is enough, Surgical should be enough.
Spirits
Are you serious? We cleeeearly need more data. The sky is not falling!!
All I see is signs of a healthy metagame! Hmm, the metagame is indeed adapting, bloo is a great deck to represent Modern and be a tier1 deck. Hogaak 50% metashare, bloo 20%, etc. Niiiice :). Finally a format that rewards interaction and not just play solitary hoping to kill the opponent before he kills you!! Oh, and the hate cards lottery, oh boy, that makes it even better! Who likes the hogaak vs hogaak decided by who draws more leylines and whispmares? I do!
Yes, we need more data.
Yes, we need the meta to adjust and adapt (few months ago ‘omg Phoenix too broken, they are all over in the top8!’).
Yes, we need to chill out.
Don’t feed the troll, I guess.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
You cannot look at 5-0s but SCG Top 16, Day 2s, Modern Classics, Modern Online Challenges (especially) and GP Top 16s are all meaningful data if you wish to metagame for Online or larger competitive events.
I've done it, it's fine.
It's not worthwhile for FNM.
What data is going to even matter?
Spirits
Ehh I guess. I'm just more sick of people saying things are fine and healthy, when they have not been for quite a while.
At least the nice thing about MTGO is that since I don't waste my money on Leagues, I have no qualms with right click -> concede match every few pairings. When I don't have to actually play against those rancid abominations, many of the games are almost fun.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
While I appreciate what you are trying to do, you don't pour gas on a fire.
If Hogaak is the big thing (and it appears to be) then one would be a fool to not account for it. After we determine if one can hate it out, let's see then?
Yes, we all get it, it's obnoxious to run 6+ dedicated hate cards but that's life IF Hogaak remains popular.
If it works, and we can hate it out? Wizards won't care, and won't ban anything.
As to people who claim the format is healthy, well that's between them and their conscience.
I can only say that Wizards does not care how successful Dredge and Phoenix have been, and until shown otherwise I have zero reason to believe they will care about Hogaak, if we can suppress it.
Diva has something like a 60% win rate against it. Just accept it exists, and Ravenous Trap/Surgical/Void.
Spirits
Hogaak Vine just won the Gamers and Geeks 2005 Mustang GT tournament. The player was a player who I used to occasionally play with in California, but I see he's moved on. (I think the tournament was in Alabama) For what it's worth, you can look it up on Facebook.
Before the MCQ and in between rounds, I played it vs. a local player who runs Cheerios. After I beat him in the first game, he literally slaughtered me the next 3 games in a row. But players are not willing to make deck changes like this because, "who likes Cheerios?" He's happy for this type of meta. I am all right with this type of meta because I could move on to NeoBrand, which is just quicker than a deck like Hogaak Vine that has literally no disruption for NeoBrand in its 75. (sorry, 2 SB Thoughtseize)
If players are not willing to adjust like I've seen a million players here say again and again, then they DESERVE to lose. I'm sorry for being blunt. Players during Eldrazi Winter that played me usually were not willing to play the best deck. They usually lost. All they could say is that "it will get banned." Well, during that time in which I bought the Eldrazi pieces that I was missing (only the new ones), I netted $1,300 worth of cash and prizes. I'm okay with it getting banned. That was obvious. It didn't mean that I was going to force myself to lose before it does actually get banned.
I do think something is going to get banned in Hogaak Vine. I prefer a Modern Horizons card (Hogaak/Altar) because things were not really fine, but not bannable per se before this set. Carrion Feeder also definitely helped, but it's not the culprit.
Remember what I said about Ravenous Trap? Already went up from $3.40 to $5 so far. Not sure how far it can go, but makes sense that it is in an upward projectile currently, even if it is hard to buyout an uncommon.
P.S. - How many players have 1 Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn in their SB?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Leyline is gg when it lucks upon hand, but i don't really care for mulligan into win if it's not combo (and even then..
eh)
Four copies of Hogaak in the top 8, taking 1st to 3rd positions.
*disclaimer - too early to ban - give it will the gp/pt/mc whatever they're called now*
Reading this thread I've been on the same train of thought.
Old cards were all 'fine' ie didn't get/deserve a ban.
Bridge has been in a long standing deck, banning it very lieely kills dredge and while plenty would celebrate we've all had decks banned out from under us and it's a horrendous experience. Bridge stays.
So that should have us focus on the new cards.
If we keep with WotC example of banking the enablers then Hogaak should be fine. Tbh I think people generally agree that it's just the payoff for other shenanigans.
Feeder - same good card but hardly back breaking even with bridge.
Now Altar of dementia is both new (people haven't necessarily picked it up in paper yet) and is an enabler that allows this deck to backdoor into a 2nd strategy. It is what enables this level of fast crazy in the deck and dodges interaction. Removing this would also force the deck to run more dredgers and be more a dredge iterations than this milling monster that beats you to death with x 2/2.
For me alter should be the card to go.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
Refusing to straight up buy a new deck = deserve to lose because not willing to adjust? Is this a joke?
There were 2, maybe 3 decks during that period that could hang with Eldrazi. In a format as expensive as this, you seriously expect people to buy a new deck in the name of adjustment just to be able compete in some events?
This isn't being blunt, it's being stupid.
In some metas yeah, but using Eldrazi Winter as an example of players deserving to lose because of lack of adaptation is dumb af.
1st to 3rd Hogaak: 4 leylines
4th Mono-red Phoenix: Side - 2 Ravenous trap, 2 Tomod's Crypt
5th UW control: 2 Sugicals, 4 RiP
6th Mono-red Phoenix: 2 surgicals, 2 tomods, 1 ravenous
7th Dredge: 4 leylines
8th Hogaak: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
9th Infect: 2 ravenous trap
10th Eldrazi Tron: 1 surgical, 1 tomod, 2 ravenous, 1 cage
11th Battle of wits?: not gonna bother
12th Eldrazi Tron: 1 relic, 1 cage
13th Hogaak: none
14th 5C Humans: 4 leylines
15th Whirl/sai/urza: 1 cage, 4 leylines
16th WR Humans: 1 cage
yeah. I also think the mill is the problem. Giving a second win con that's hard to deal with to an already powerful deck. I mean not many people play mill in modern? People are unprepared for this angle of attack.
May I ask, when is the next ban announcement? thanks.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
July 8th
time to dig all the ravenous traps in my old binder and sell them, while Hogaak is still going strong
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread