Word is, the deck isn't losing to leyline anymore either.
I don't know how it plays but from what I'm seeing not even a turn 3 board wipe is sufficient, as not only are you facing 20 power, you are milled out.
if it get's too strong, WoTC can always fix it with their mighty hammer.
About Force of Vigor, it's an overhyped card afaik. The format has plenty of great disenchant effects and FoV seems worse for most decks. Who would like to pitch a card over paying one single G mana to destroy an artifact ? That's the question.
Without Bridge, just playing regular Dredgevine, the deck can goldfish 1 Hogaak + 4 Vengevines + 2 Bloodghasts (on top of 2 Suppliers and 1 Feeder), with a total 31 power on the BF by turn 2. It's very common to get 1 Hogaak + 1 Vengevine on turn 2 (on top of a couple early creatures and maybe 1 Ghast), which is already quite a board. Looks somewhat similar to what UR Phoenix can do with a flipped Thing in the Ice and a Phoenix attacking on turn 3.
The deck still loses to GY hate though. It's better than regular dredge because you can still hardcast powerful Vengevine and Feeder (while Dredge is left with Amalgams as their biggest threat). Hogaak becomes straight uncastable though, in case of Leyline and RIP (you need 7 creatures on the board). But the deck can still play with its GY if it's facing only Surgical Extractions or Tormod's Crypt effects.
I haven't tried the Bridge version yet, but i'm going to. This could become a Tier 1 abomination in a snap.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Even if this deck is the real deal, it just goes on the pile of dumb things powered by Faithless Looting IMO. So bring it on, get the London Mulligan active to make grave combo tier 0 and we can finally ban Looting.
Even if this deck is the real deal, it just goes on the pile of dumb things powered by Faithless Looting IMO. So bring it on, get the London Mulligan active to make grave combo tier 0 and we can finally ban Looting.
So we get to kill:
- UR Phoenix
- Monored Phoenix
- Hollow One
- Bridgevine
- Mardu Pyromancer
- Dredge
- Grishoalbrand
Yeah, I'm not seeing how we get from examples of what the deck can do in individual games (which is what those screenshots represent) to ban talk, a form of metagame management. With this amount of information, all I can see is hype and folks trying to push a naked "ban faithless looting" agenda.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Great article, thanks for sharing. Very interesting but this is actually the FIRST event this new bridgevine list was legal in so I feel it is FAR to early to consider or predict a ban. We should continue to watch it closely and make SB changes as we feel necessary at this point.
Great article, thanks for sharing. Very interesting but this is actually the FIRST event this new bridgevine list was legal in so I feel it is FAR to early to consider or predict a ban. We should continue to watch it closely and make SB changes as we feel necessary at this point.
noooo didn't you hear? Modern is eternally broken, it's the graveyard format! get with the program! no such reasonable talk will be tolerated.
as always, one tournament, a few screenshots (foh) and some people find it easier to whine than to strategize properly. "but i can't play my favorite deck in the way iiiii like to play, no fair!!" Warning issued for trolling. --CWP
Don't care if they ban the new guy, the altar, the bridge, or the looting, but something has to go before the next announcement because if not, me and many more are not touching modern until then.
Good luck then playing mirrors all day, you ***** who actually like to play that broken deck.
They are not going to ban Looting. No way are they going to hammer 6+ distinct decks.
This is not a 100% valid point. Years ago we said "they're not gonna kill an archetype by banning its main piece", and they killed several ones, and nowadays they still do.
Banning Looting is like banning Brainstorm if it were legal, a card that would see play in multiple strong archetypes. Wizards policy evolves over time, and we the community are the last to know where they're at. So let's be cautious about our certitudes.
Now about MH1, they know they printed a stronger Gurmag Angler and a combo sac outlet. That would be as awkward to see them ban one of their new printed cards (but certainly less impactful on the format). So indeed, no ban hammer to expect before they watch the meta adapt. Only an Eldrazi winter-like phenomenon would force them to emergency ban something, and we're fram from that.
IIUC, the deck merely needs a 1-mana self-sac creature and a way to fill the GY (looting + dredge), as the deck functions off having two bridge from below and a hogaak in the GY? The deck seems to require to have turn 1 or 2 GY hate, which probably means a lot of first-game wins.
The question is not if the deck can be countered, but how much metagame warping happens due to it forcing player to maindeck GY hate.
IIUC, the deck merely needs a 1-mana self-sac creature and a way to fill the GY (looting + dredge), as the deck functions off having two bridge from below and a hogaak in the GY? The deck seems to require to have turn 1 or 2 GY hate, which probably means a lot of first-game wins.
The question is not if the deck can be countered, but how much metagame warping happens due to it forcing player to maindeck GY hate.
The deck needs either:
1) Altar of Dementia and a few creatures/set-up tools to start a chain mill (wins if unchecked)
2) Carrion Feeder and re-curring sac outlets for the Vine kills (generates tons of pressure if unchecked)
Most of the lists do not even run the Dredge package, since it is rather mediocre (+ you only have 2-3 slots available to begin with). A Needle on Altar shuts down close to all early wins and thus forces the deck to win via a Beatdown plan, which can be fast (in theory you can have 24+ power on turn 2 on the battle field, but the chance of this happening is basically 0 (god draw)) but generally needs a couple of turns to be able to clock you where it is basically an aggro deck, with a recurring creature package without reach (so basically Dredge without Flag or Chill).
So basically: Either remove Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis via Surgical (hampers the Aggro plan also) or deal with Altar and you are facing basically dredge.
Greetings,
Kathal
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():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Re: Challenge results
As I wrote in the Reddit post, the Challenge results are both laughably bad (32% Hogaak Vine = lulz) and relatively isolated. Did Hogaak have an outrageous debut at this single Challenge? Absolutely, and it would be misleading to deny that. But it's just as misleading to oversell the results of a single Challenge. For one, it's a single datapoint on the debut weekend of a deck. There are so many factors that both artificially increase (e.g. players don't know how to play against it, SB decisions, hype, etc.) and decrease (card availability, untuned decks, pilots don't know tricks with the deck, etc.) prevalence in such a single datapoint. Given these limitations, it's hard to draw a meaningful conclusion. Second, it's not even a major paper event. It's "just" an MTGO Challenge, which we have routinely (and rightfully) questioned as representative of the metagame on any given weekend. Significant paper results or repeat online results are needed to really figure out where the deck stands in the metagame.
Re: ban decisions
Wizards has issued one emergency ban in over a decade (Felidar), which was more of an oversight acknowledgement than a response to a pattern of troubling results. There is no way we see emergency ban action based on a single Challenge. Wizards has repeatedly shown, despite the blaring ban mania in online communities, that they will wait for sustained results before acting on a ban.
I encourage community members to stick to the proven method of ban analysis: waiting for more data and taking a long, conservative view of the format. Recognize the metagame's ability to adapt and acknowledge that most decks have more weaknesses than we think. This method has produced consistent predictions of changes and no changes for years now. Even if Hogaak Vine is ultimately bannable, that does not mean we throw out the proven, conservative method and revert to a ban mania mindframe. If you throw enough darts at a board, eventually you'll get a bullseye even if your technique is horrible. That doesn't mean we look at the bullseye and say "NAILED IT" with all of our bad technique throws. We stick with the technique that works.
Which one should be pithing needle'd first. The feeder or the altar?
If Needle is the only interaction to their engine, than Altar, otherwise he can win without ever attacking if he ever draws Altar.
Feeder just generates big bodies or a wide board (depending on what exactly they have), which can be dealt with either sweeper (especially Terminus, Hallowed Burial or Anger of the Gods) or big dumb beaters from your self (+ have an out to an 8/8).
Ideally watch some games on twitch/youtube to get a better understanding for what I meant (like to one of Kanisters streams: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/436193956). Within 4-5 games you should get the grasp of how to play against that deck (assuming you know how to play against Dredge already).
Greetings,
Kathal
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
already know how to play against normal dredge. Just want to know how Hogaak is different, which is why I'm carefully reading the recent posts in this thread. And will now watch the video..
Here's a screenshot with a bunch of green in the yard, so yes, the Green Force would be playable I would think.
Regardless, please point out where I am in a panic. This is just Modern, what would I be paranoid about?
Spirits
You rang?
Blackcleave Cliffs x4
Blood Crypt x3
Bloodstained Mire x2
Dakmor Salvage x3
Polluted Delta x3
Swamp
Verdant Catacombs x2
Carrion Feeder x4
Darkblast x2
Gravecrawler x4
Stitcher's Supplier x4
Faithless Looting x4
Golgari Thug x3
Bloodghast x4
Cathartic Reunion x2
Alter of Dementia x4
Stinkweed Ink x2
Bridge from Below x4
Hogark x4
Board
Spark Harvest x2
Thoughtseize x4
Shenanigans x2
Blasphemous Act x3
Nature's Claim x4
Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
Spirits
if it get's too strong, WoTC can always fix it with their mighty hammer.
As they did with KCI.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
About Force of Vigor, it's an overhyped card afaik. The format has plenty of great disenchant effects and FoV seems worse for most decks. Who would like to pitch a card over paying one single G mana to destroy an artifact ? That's the question.
Without Bridge, just playing regular Dredgevine, the deck can goldfish 1 Hogaak + 4 Vengevines + 2 Bloodghasts (on top of 2 Suppliers and 1 Feeder), with a total 31 power on the BF by turn 2. It's very common to get 1 Hogaak + 1 Vengevine on turn 2 (on top of a couple early creatures and maybe 1 Ghast), which is already quite a board. Looks somewhat similar to what UR Phoenix can do with a flipped Thing in the Ice and a Phoenix attacking on turn 3.
The deck still loses to GY hate though. It's better than regular dredge because you can still hardcast powerful Vengevine and Feeder (while Dredge is left with Amalgams as their biggest threat). Hogaak becomes straight uncastable though, in case of Leyline and RIP (you need 7 creatures on the board). But the deck can still play with its GY if it's facing only Surgical Extractions or Tormod's Crypt effects.
I haven't tried the Bridge version yet, but i'm going to. This could become a Tier 1 abomination in a snap.
So we get to kill:
- UR Phoenix
- Monored Phoenix
- Hollow One
- Bridgevine
- Mardu Pyromancer
- Dredge
- Grishoalbrand
All in one? Yeah, sure.
Just provide reason and ways to get to Turn 4 without being dead to board.
Spirits
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/bymnxh/modern_mtgo_challenge_results_06082019/
Now that's a much stronger piece of evidence of the strength of the new Bridgevine variant.
noooo didn't you hear? Modern is eternally broken, it's the graveyard format! get with the program! no such reasonable talk will be tolerated.
as always, one tournament, a few screenshots (foh) and some people find it easier to whine than to strategize properly. "but i can't play my favorite deck in the way iiiii like to play, no fair!!"
Warning issued for trolling. --CWP
Don't care if they ban the new guy, the altar, the bridge, or the looting, but something has to go before the next announcement because if not, me and many more are not touching modern until then.
Good luck then playing mirrors all day, you ***** who actually like to play that broken deck.
This is not a 100% valid point. Years ago we said "they're not gonna kill an archetype by banning its main piece", and they killed several ones, and nowadays they still do.
Banning Looting is like banning Brainstorm if it were legal, a card that would see play in multiple strong archetypes. Wizards policy evolves over time, and we the community are the last to know where they're at. So let's be cautious about our certitudes.
Now about MH1, they know they printed a stronger Gurmag Angler and a combo sac outlet. That would be as awkward to see them ban one of their new printed cards (but certainly less impactful on the format). So indeed, no ban hammer to expect before they watch the meta adapt. Only an Eldrazi winter-like phenomenon would force them to emergency ban something, and we're fram from that.
Bets for emergency ban or for normal on the 8th ban?
My bet, knowing wizards, is they are going to wait to the 8th and will ban bridge from below.
The question is not if the deck can be countered, but how much metagame warping happens due to it forcing player to maindeck GY hate.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
1) Altar of Dementia and a few creatures/set-up tools to start a chain mill (wins if unchecked)
2) Carrion Feeder and re-curring sac outlets for the Vine kills (generates tons of pressure if unchecked)
Most of the lists do not even run the Dredge package, since it is rather mediocre (+ you only have 2-3 slots available to begin with). A Needle on Altar shuts down close to all early wins and thus forces the deck to win via a Beatdown plan, which can be fast (in theory you can have 24+ power on turn 2 on the battle field, but the chance of this happening is basically 0 (god draw)) but generally needs a couple of turns to be able to clock you where it is basically an aggro deck, with a recurring creature package without reach (so basically Dredge without Flag or Chill).
So basically: Either remove Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis via Surgical (hampers the Aggro plan also) or deal with Altar and you are facing basically dredge.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Which one should be pithing needle'd first. The feeder or the altar?
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
As I wrote in the Reddit post, the Challenge results are both laughably bad (32% Hogaak Vine = lulz) and relatively isolated. Did Hogaak have an outrageous debut at this single Challenge? Absolutely, and it would be misleading to deny that. But it's just as misleading to oversell the results of a single Challenge. For one, it's a single datapoint on the debut weekend of a deck. There are so many factors that both artificially increase (e.g. players don't know how to play against it, SB decisions, hype, etc.) and decrease (card availability, untuned decks, pilots don't know tricks with the deck, etc.) prevalence in such a single datapoint. Given these limitations, it's hard to draw a meaningful conclusion. Second, it's not even a major paper event. It's "just" an MTGO Challenge, which we have routinely (and rightfully) questioned as representative of the metagame on any given weekend. Significant paper results or repeat online results are needed to really figure out where the deck stands in the metagame.
Re: ban decisions
Wizards has issued one emergency ban in over a decade (Felidar), which was more of an oversight acknowledgement than a response to a pattern of troubling results. There is no way we see emergency ban action based on a single Challenge. Wizards has repeatedly shown, despite the blaring ban mania in online communities, that they will wait for sustained results before acting on a ban.
I encourage community members to stick to the proven method of ban analysis: waiting for more data and taking a long, conservative view of the format. Recognize the metagame's ability to adapt and acknowledge that most decks have more weaknesses than we think. This method has produced consistent predictions of changes and no changes for years now. Even if Hogaak Vine is ultimately bannable, that does not mean we throw out the proven, conservative method and revert to a ban mania mindframe. If you throw enough darts at a board, eventually you'll get a bullseye even if your technique is horrible. That doesn't mean we look at the bullseye and say "NAILED IT" with all of our bad technique throws. We stick with the technique that works.
Feeder just generates big bodies or a wide board (depending on what exactly they have), which can be dealt with either sweeper (especially Terminus, Hallowed Burial or Anger of the Gods) or big dumb beaters from your self (+ have an out to an 8/8).
Ideally watch some games on twitch/youtube to get a better understanding for what I meant (like to one of Kanisters streams: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/436193956). Within 4-5 games you should get the grasp of how to play against that deck (assuming you know how to play against Dredge already).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
already know how to play against normal dredge. Just want to know how Hogaak is different, which is why I'm carefully reading the recent posts in this thread. And will now watch the video..
EDIT:
saw the video. What monstrosity is this??!
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
i'm really happy that there's folks like u in this thread
i just wish those that love to hold onto that big throbbing banhammer would make the effort to follow this advice