I mean that makes sense with Graduation and Finals on the Horizon. Is it different from the previous year or something?
Yes. 2018 was not nearly as bad/slow as it is right now. Its the format. I mean even looking around at most of the forum, traffic certainly appears way down.
I would attribute the slowdown to a wide combination of factors including the rise of Discord, increased Reddit traffic, heightened Standard/Arena popularity, increased Arena streaming, entrance into a slower Modern season after the GP stretch, uncertainty about what to play due to MH, the decline of traditional forums like ours (both generally and specifically), and a host of other factors. We have seen posts every few months for literal years that Modern is losing players and/or popularity in an often isolated or small N context. I remember it in basically every metagame from Eldrazi Winter to present. The format is now, and continues to be, largely fine.
This phenomenon is a direct result of players desperately wanting to play a Snap/Bolt Control/Tempo deck after theirs was nuked from orbit and every other possible alternative was either a completely different deck, or aggressively mediocre. The long-standing frustration over Twin is not an accident or a coincidence. Pretty much every other banned deck has lived on or even thrived in one form or another except Twin. Never mind the other similar decks it enabled, since people would treat non-Twin decks as if they had Twin, and slow down, thus giving them a fighting chance to do well. *sigh*
This shell may be more resiliant than we thought with any two card combo fitting in that slot.
It's not, really. Not at all. It's not "resilient," it's "a thing lots of people like and want to play, and will play it, to a fault, whether it's good or not."
Ok I'll take that. Resilient was not the most accurate word. But I do think that may be an inherently powerful shell, but just in need of a closer to make it viable again, as indicated earlier with the list of combos people have tried to use in very similar shells.
Here is a crazy idea; maybe the new way to do this could be two combos. Deceiver exarch / kiki in the main with Jace / leveler in the side? You Still use the snap bolt control beat down plan but the hate they side in is not useful because you changed the combo. It would take away alot of sideboard slots but it's just a fun thought.
Here is a crazy idea; maybe the new way to do this could be two combos. Deceiver exarch / kiki in the main with Jace / leveler in the side? You Still use the snap bolt control beat down plan but the hate they side in is not useful because you changed the combo. It would take away alot of sideboard slots but it's just a fun thought.
Oh I've thought about that; specifically Breach/Emrakul into Exarch/Kiki, since people generally side out all removal for Breach. But then you are losing nearly your entire sideboard to swap out one mediocre combo for another. You're giving up precious slots needed to not get completely steamrolled by most good decks in Modern.
As long as skillful players deem it necessary to put Surgical Extraction in their mainboard I will not consider Modern to be "fine".
Why? When everybody and their mom were playing Midrange (aka DRS times) people played things like Elspeth, Sun's Champion in their main, cause it was so darn good vs the metagame. Heck, there where time periods where playing counter spells was the dumbest thing you could have done, cause that form of interaction aligned really badly to the metagame.
There are currently two decks, which see a lot of play where you would want some form of MD graveyard hate, namely Dredge and Phoenix, against most other decks that type of interaction (yes, it is interaction) just sucks. Humans, Spirits, Hardening Scales simply do not care about graveyard hate, and G Tron only cares about Surgical if combined with LD.
It would be the same, if suddenly everybody plays Sweepers, cause there is so many go wide Aggro strategies. Would that also be suddenly a problem?
Also, the format is fine, it just evolved over the years, currently we are at a point in Modern history, where the graveyard for the first time really matters. The deck which abused it the most previously was Squeeflagrate (a Zombie Infestation, Life from the Loam, Squee, Goblin Nabob, Bloodghast and Conflagrate deck #stomper of all Aggro decks) and that deck never took off, cause even while nobody played graveyard hate, nobody played it (cause no exposure but one GP).
Modern changes, Legacy did too ('member when Goblins was a Tier 1 deck and not just a dumbster fire?), new cards allow new/old strategies to thrive, more cards always increase the power level, regardless of how supposed crappy the set was (every set, even Theoros and Cold Snap, has a wealth of cards contributing to Modern). While Modern is a behemoth, it slowly moves forward, one set after another.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I had a reply but I'm not satisfied with how I worded it so I'm going to think about it a bit more.
In short, mainboardable Surgical Extraction means the format is too unfair for my taste, and it is very easy to post a Simpson's clip and say "just adapt".
When Mirrodin block became so inbred people mainboarded 4x Oxidize, they also adapted, but that does not mean the format wasn't warped.
As long as skillful players deem it necessary to put Surgical Extraction in their mainboard I will not consider Modern to be "fine".
Why? When everybody and their mom were playing Midrange (aka DRS times) people played things like Elspeth, Sun's Champion in their main, cause it was so darn good vs the metagame.
Well, the difference is that Elspeth is a card you could want to include as part of your strategy, not for the sole purpose of not being annihilated game 1
As long as skillful players deem it necessary to put Surgical Extraction in their mainboard I will not consider Modern to be "fine".
Why? When everybody and their mom were playing Midrange (aka DRS times) people played things like Elspeth, Sun's Champion in their main, cause it was so darn good vs the metagame.
Well, the difference is that Elspeth is a card you could want to include as part of your strategy, not for the sole purpose of not being annihilated game 1
I disagree. Decks have long run discard, counterspells, and removal to attack the opponent's resources aka cards on the board, in hand, and on the stack. For a long time, the graveyard was not a resource because there were very few ways to utilize it. That hasn't been the case for over a decade. Cards in any zone are now a resource to be used. I guess I don't see graveyard disruption as some super narrow inclusion. Surgical is, then again UW control could run a couple Settle the Wreckage instead to exile the entire field along with terminus. GB is running ScOoze and Kalitas to that end. If your strategy is midrange or control, your strategy is "disrupt the opponent while playing generic good cards" to put it very bluntly.
As WOTC expands design space where we can use cards that were once thought to simply be gone, the concept of fair, unfair, disruption, etc kinda has to evolve along the way.
I had a reply but I'm not satisfied with how I worded it so I'm going to think about it a bit more.
In short, mainboardable Surgical Extraction means the format is too unfair for my taste, and it is very easy to post a Simpson's clip and say "just adapt".
When Mirrodin block became so inbred people mainboarded 4x Oxidize, they also adapted, but that does not mean the format wasn't warped.
The difference is: In Mirrodin Block you could run 4x Oxidize, 4x Shatter and 4x Viridian Shaman MD and it would STILL be NOT enough to deal with the Artefact decks. That is beyond levels of a broken metagame. Heck, even after the bannings Kataki, War's Wage was basically a must play, since the Artefact decks were still that freaking good.
However, does anybody run even close to 6+ graveyard hate pieces in the MD atm? No, the most you see is either the 2 off Surgical or Nihil Spellbomb which you can play the playset of, cause in the worst case it cycles for 2 mana, which is below Modern standards but it still does something. Ooze is a special case, since you profit from creatures in general in the graveyard, but it is more often than not to slow to stop things like Dredge or a fast Phoenix draw, hence, it is better in the slower, removal heavy match-ups. Kaya is similar, although better in the Phoenix match-up since the decks which play her have access to good removal and thus can even exile the Phoenixes after they hit you once/twice. That she has also other applications (e.g vs Hardening Scale, or as mini lifegain vs Burn) makes her a more all-arounder instead of being a very specific interaction card like Surgical.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to play pre RTR Modern again, since it was the by far most fun I ever had in Modern. Playing Gifts Storm with Seething Song (Increasing Vengeance is hella strong with Song), RUG Delver with Shackles and Cryptics or even Kiki Pod was so much fun. What makes it even better was, that of those decks where pretty darn good, but all either faded away due to an evolving metagame (Delver), or ate a ban (or two).
Holistic speaking, it was probably the most balanced and exciting Modern format I ever had the fortune to both play and watch, but than again, time went on.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Surgical Extraction is also another way to get out Arclight Phoenix on turn 2 without the help of Manamorphose. It does not hurt Phoenix to run such a card and I don't think I've seen them in any other current Modern deck.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Fair points ktk, but I feel if other options did not pull game time from Modern, as there have always been options in the past, we would have a lot more discussion going on.
The format, largely, is fine. I still believe there is a very very clear delineation between the 'winners meta' and the rest of the format however, much more so than I dont know, 2017?
Regardless, its going to take a lot in the next 3 months to draw me back to Modern in any real way.
I had a reply but I'm not satisfied with how I worded it so I'm going to think about it a bit more.
In short, mainboardable Surgical Extraction means the format is too unfair for my taste, and it is very easy to post a Simpson's clip and say "just adapt".
When Mirrodin block became so inbred people mainboarded 4x Oxidize, they also adapted, but that does not mean the format wasn't warped.
The difference is: In Mirrodin Block you could run 4x Oxidize, 4x Shatter and 4x Viridian Shaman MD and it would STILL be NOT enough to deal with the Artefact decks. That is beyond levels of a broken metagame. Heck, even after the bannings Kataki, War's Wage was basically a must play, since the Artefact decks were still that freaking good.
However, does anybody run even close to 6+ graveyard hate pieces in the MD atm? No, the most you see is either the 2 off Surgical or Nihil Spellbomb which you can play the playset of, cause in the worst case it cycles for 2 mana, which is below Modern standards but it still does something. Ooze is a special case, since you profit from creatures in general in the graveyard, but it is more often than not to slow to stop things like Dredge or a fast Phoenix draw, hence, it is better in the slower, removal heavy match-ups. Kaya is similar, although better in the Phoenix match-up since the decks which play her have access to good removal and thus can even exile the Phoenixes after they hit you once/twice. That she has also other applications (e.g vs Hardening Scale, or as mini lifegain vs Burn) makes her a more all-arounder instead of being a very specific interaction card like Surgical.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to play pre RTR Modern again, since it was the by far most fun I ever had in Modern. Playing Gifts Storm with Seething Song (Increasing Vengeance is hella strong with Song), RUG Delver with Shackles and Cryptics or even Kiki Pod was so much fun. What makes it even better was, that of those decks where pretty darn good, but all either faded away due to an evolving metagame (Delver), or ate a ban (or two).
Holistic speaking, it was probably the most balanced and exciting Modern format I ever had the fortune to both play and watch, but than again, time went on.
Greetings,
Kathal
My point is that people adapting does not immediately mean a format is healthy. The red thread of Modern has become that it's better to be linear and be hard to interact with than to try to interact. Triggering Phoenix off casting Surgical Extraction is one thing, but when UW runs mainboard Surgical, a card with virtually no text except against the decks where you basically need it in your opener because your deck of counterspells and removal doesn't really interact well, I say the format is warped. Benjamin Nikolich is running 3 mainboard Relics in his Snapcaster deck!
Another example of a format being beatable but still warped would be the Vintage metagame, where everyone's sideboard and some mainboard has to greatly invest into beating Dredge. Dredge isn't broken in Vintage, it's not even the best deck, but you really need to be ok with half the cards in your deck being textless in many matchups to enjoy playing it.
The format adapts and so do my decklists (to be on a more positive note, Narset and Ashiok from WAR are fantastic additions to Modern) but that does not mean I have to be happy with how the format adapts. And although there is no real single broken deck in the format, the type of strategy you should be playing if your sole intent is spiking a big tournament is, in my opinion, incredibly miserable and unfun.
I'm staring at burn. I'm staring at grixis shadow. I'm sharing at meta data. I'm staring at the modern team SCG Pittsburgh open and thinking "somehow I don't like either of my decks right now."
4 CMC Colorless repeatable Wish is strong who would have thought.
wishes in general are strong. I've wanted the judgment cycle in modern for years, thinking it would at the very least help with the sideboard strain complaint.
4 CMC Colorless repeatable Wish is strong who would have thought.
wishes in general are strong. I've wanted the judgment cycle in modern for years, thinking it would at the very least help with the sideboard strain complaint.
Oh I don't disagree, I love Wish. I am just saying. They probably should have made the Wish on Karn be minus three so that he cannot do it back to back ie Bridge into Lattice. Which works perfectly if you have Tron Activated with 7 mana cause Karn cost 4, Bridge Cost 3 and Lattice cost 6.
Still the story may not being doing much for Karn and Teferi but really its been nothing but Ws for the them card wise. And they still got plenty of room to explore lol.
yeah the karn wish package is just solid, and although better suited for some decks the floor on it is high enough that a lot of decks/archetypes can jam it if they wanted. i imagine that is why is cropping up in all sorts of lists. the difficult part is determining if it is actually an upgrade, or if it just feels that way because its new and powerful.
while im surprised that wizards chose to push karn that much it also gives me hope that tutors and toolbox style effects are at least being re-examined somewhat; whereas for a long time many people counted them as taboo.
sTonEForGe mYsTIc liMitS desIgN
guess wizards has to hold back on artifact design cause karn right? smh
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
List of colorless matters cards that have pumped Tron since Zendikar block:
-Thought Knot Seer
-Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
-Walking Ballista
-Sanctum of Ugin
-World Breaker
-Warping Wail
-Spatial Contortion
-Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-Emrakul, the Promised End
-Karn, the Great Creator
List of modern playable equipment printed since Batterskull:
-I guess Smuggler's Copter if you squint real hard
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
List of modern playable equipment:
Cranial plating
Let’s not even talk about new equipment being printed. The old ‘good’ ones like swords and batterskull aren’t even good enough on their own.
I do think Batterskull would see play with SFM, but it'd just be a decent fair play. Even in the fair matchups you can do a lot more devastating things nowadays. I'm uncertain about the swords.
I do think Batterskull would see play with SFM, but it'd just be a decent fair play. Even in the fair matchups you can do a lot more devastating things nowadays. I'm uncertain about the swords.
But that is exactly what he said: "They are not even good enough on their OWN".
Hence, they need something like SFM so that they get playable.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
I would attribute the slowdown to a wide combination of factors including the rise of Discord, increased Reddit traffic, heightened Standard/Arena popularity, increased Arena streaming, entrance into a slower Modern season after the GP stretch, uncertainty about what to play due to MH, the decline of traditional forums like ours (both generally and specifically), and a host of other factors. We have seen posts every few months for literal years that Modern is losing players and/or popularity in an often isolated or small N context. I remember it in basically every metagame from Eldrazi Winter to present. The format is now, and continues to be, largely fine.
I think we have vastly different definitions of the word "fine."
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Ok I'll take that. Resilient was not the most accurate word. But I do think that may be an inherently powerful shell, but just in need of a closer to make it viable again, as indicated earlier with the list of combos people have tried to use in very similar shells.
Here is a crazy idea; maybe the new way to do this could be two combos. Deceiver exarch / kiki in the main with Jace / leveler in the side? You Still use the snap bolt control beat down plan but the hate they side in is not useful because you changed the combo. It would take away alot of sideboard slots but it's just a fun thought.
Oh I've thought about that; specifically Breach/Emrakul into Exarch/Kiki, since people generally side out all removal for Breach. But then you are losing nearly your entire sideboard to swap out one mediocre combo for another. You're giving up precious slots needed to not get completely steamrolled by most good decks in Modern.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
There are currently two decks, which see a lot of play where you would want some form of MD graveyard hate, namely Dredge and Phoenix, against most other decks that type of interaction (yes, it is interaction) just sucks. Humans, Spirits, Hardening Scales simply do not care about graveyard hate, and G Tron only cares about Surgical if combined with LD.
It would be the same, if suddenly everybody plays Sweepers, cause there is so many go wide Aggro strategies. Would that also be suddenly a problem?
Also, the format is fine, it just evolved over the years, currently we are at a point in Modern history, where the graveyard for the first time really matters. The deck which abused it the most previously was Squeeflagrate (a Zombie Infestation, Life from the Loam, Squee, Goblin Nabob, Bloodghast and Conflagrate deck #stomper of all Aggro decks) and that deck never took off, cause even while nobody played graveyard hate, nobody played it (cause no exposure but one GP).
When I read something along that line it always remembers me of that clip: https://youtu.be/LV0wTtiJygY
Modern changes, Legacy did too ('member when Goblins was a Tier 1 deck and not just a dumbster fire?), new cards allow new/old strategies to thrive, more cards always increase the power level, regardless of how supposed crappy the set was (every set, even Theoros and Cold Snap, has a wealth of cards contributing to Modern). While Modern is a behemoth, it slowly moves forward, one set after another.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
In short, mainboardable Surgical Extraction means the format is too unfair for my taste, and it is very easy to post a Simpson's clip and say "just adapt".
When Mirrodin block became so inbred people mainboarded 4x Oxidize, they also adapted, but that does not mean the format wasn't warped.
Well, the difference is that Elspeth is a card you could want to include as part of your strategy, not for the sole purpose of not being annihilated game 1
I disagree. Decks have long run discard, counterspells, and removal to attack the opponent's resources aka cards on the board, in hand, and on the stack. For a long time, the graveyard was not a resource because there were very few ways to utilize it. That hasn't been the case for over a decade. Cards in any zone are now a resource to be used. I guess I don't see graveyard disruption as some super narrow inclusion. Surgical is, then again UW control could run a couple Settle the Wreckage instead to exile the entire field along with terminus. GB is running ScOoze and Kalitas to that end. If your strategy is midrange or control, your strategy is "disrupt the opponent while playing generic good cards" to put it very bluntly.
As WOTC expands design space where we can use cards that were once thought to simply be gone, the concept of fair, unfair, disruption, etc kinda has to evolve along the way.
The difference is: In Mirrodin Block you could run 4x Oxidize, 4x Shatter and 4x Viridian Shaman MD and it would STILL be NOT enough to deal with the Artefact decks. That is beyond levels of a broken metagame. Heck, even after the bannings Kataki, War's Wage was basically a must play, since the Artefact decks were still that freaking good.
However, does anybody run even close to 6+ graveyard hate pieces in the MD atm? No, the most you see is either the 2 off Surgical or Nihil Spellbomb which you can play the playset of, cause in the worst case it cycles for 2 mana, which is below Modern standards but it still does something. Ooze is a special case, since you profit from creatures in general in the graveyard, but it is more often than not to slow to stop things like Dredge or a fast Phoenix draw, hence, it is better in the slower, removal heavy match-ups. Kaya is similar, although better in the Phoenix match-up since the decks which play her have access to good removal and thus can even exile the Phoenixes after they hit you once/twice. That she has also other applications (e.g vs Hardening Scale, or as mini lifegain vs Burn) makes her a more all-arounder instead of being a very specific interaction card like Surgical.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to play pre RTR Modern again, since it was the by far most fun I ever had in Modern. Playing Gifts Storm with Seething Song (Increasing Vengeance is hella strong with Song), RUG Delver with Shackles and Cryptics or even Kiki Pod was so much fun. What makes it even better was, that of those decks where pretty darn good, but all either faded away due to an evolving metagame (Delver), or ate a ban (or two).
Holistic speaking, it was probably the most balanced and exciting Modern format I ever had the fortune to both play and watch, but than again, time went on.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The format, largely, is fine. I still believe there is a very very clear delineation between the 'winners meta' and the rest of the format however, much more so than I dont know, 2017?
Regardless, its going to take a lot in the next 3 months to draw me back to Modern in any real way.
Spirits
Karn is everywhere now. From Prison decks to Tron to Amulet to Titanshift, it's getting out of hand already.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
My point is that people adapting does not immediately mean a format is healthy. The red thread of Modern has become that it's better to be linear and be hard to interact with than to try to interact. Triggering Phoenix off casting Surgical Extraction is one thing, but when UW runs mainboard Surgical, a card with virtually no text except against the decks where you basically need it in your opener because your deck of counterspells and removal doesn't really interact well, I say the format is warped. Benjamin Nikolich is running 3 mainboard Relics in his Snapcaster deck!
Another example of a format being beatable but still warped would be the Vintage metagame, where everyone's sideboard and some mainboard has to greatly invest into beating Dredge. Dredge isn't broken in Vintage, it's not even the best deck, but you really need to be ok with half the cards in your deck being textless in many matchups to enjoy playing it.
The format adapts and so do my decklists (to be on a more positive note, Narset and Ashiok from WAR are fantastic additions to Modern) but that does not mean I have to be happy with how the format adapts. And although there is no real single broken deck in the format, the type of strategy you should be playing if your sole intent is spiking a big tournament is, in my opinion, incredibly miserable and unfun.
I'm staring at burn. I'm staring at grixis shadow. I'm sharing at meta data. I'm staring at the modern team SCG Pittsburgh open and thinking "somehow I don't like either of my decks right now."
wishes in general are strong. I've wanted the judgment cycle in modern for years, thinking it would at the very least help with the sideboard strain complaint.
Oh I don't disagree, I love Wish. I am just saying. They probably should have made the Wish on Karn be minus three so that he cannot do it back to back ie Bridge into Lattice. Which works perfectly if you have Tron Activated with 7 mana cause Karn cost 4, Bridge Cost 3 and Lattice cost 6.
Still the story may not being doing much for Karn and Teferi but really its been nothing but Ws for the them card wise. And they still got plenty of room to explore lol.
while im surprised that wizards chose to push karn that much it also gives me hope that tutors and toolbox style effects are at least being re-examined somewhat; whereas for a long time many people counted them as taboo.
sTonEForGe mYsTIc liMitS desIgN
guess wizards has to hold back on artifact design cause karn right? smh
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)List of colorless matters cards that have pumped Tron since Zendikar block:
-Thought Knot Seer
-Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
-Walking Ballista
-Sanctum of Ugin
-World Breaker
-Warping Wail
-Spatial Contortion
-Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
-Emrakul, the Promised End
-Karn, the Great Creator
List of modern playable equipment printed since Batterskull:
-I guess Smuggler's Copter if you squint real hard
Cranial plating
Let’s not even talk about new equipment being printed. The old ‘good’ ones like swords and batterskull aren’t even good enough on their own.
I do think Batterskull would see play with SFM, but it'd just be a decent fair play. Even in the fair matchups you can do a lot more devastating things nowadays. I'm uncertain about the swords.
Hence, they need something like SFM so that they get playable.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)