The deck was 50% at the latest GP, with the deck warping itself to win in the mirror, and the format warping around itself to beat it...yet it still posted a greater than 50 win%. That's impressive. If you don't cherry pick your data Phoenix has been running between 53-58%. You can argue not to ban something without resorting to obviously ridiculous lies and half truths.
I just dont see why the 'b' word is being used at all. Nobody is asking for bans that I can see.
I want Phoenixes and dredge be banned, so what? And I'm pretty sure there're other people that want bans too but not posting here.
So please, stop saying that "WE" don't want bans.
I'm still down for a faithless looting ban, however with Horizons coming up I think it's fair to sit it out and see if it really does shake up modern (I doubt it).
I'm also rooting for the London Mulligan getting implemented. It removes some non-games for all decks universally, makes sideboarding more impactful and is more skill intensive than the current rule. That it makes linear decks even more powerful is a tradeoff that can be fixed with bans if needed.
The deck was 50% at the latest GP, with the deck warping itself to win in the mirror, and the format warping around itself to beat it...yet it still posted a greater than 50 win%. That's impressive. If you don't cherry pick your data Phoenix has been running between 53-58%. You can argue not to ban something without resorting to obviously ridiculous lies and half truths.
I just dont see why the 'b' word is being used at all. Nobody is asking for bans that I can see.
I want Phoenixes and dredge be banned, so what? And I'm pretty sure there're other people that want bans too but not posting here.
So please, stop saying that "WE" don't want bans.
Oh, sorry, feel free to call for bans, I did not see the posts which had started the ban conversation.
Outside of the single case of Ramunap Ruins, WOTC has never, ever even mentioned win rates. They have however, cited GP performance, in the form of Top 8 placements and wins, in nearly every ban ever.
Under any normal circumstances, Phoenix would eat a ban, and anyone telling themselves otherwise is kidding themselves or making the exact same arguments people complained about Twin defenders making.
Outside of the single case of Ramunap Ruins, WOTC has never, ever even mentioned win rates. They have however, cited GP performance, in the form of Top 8 placements and wins, in nearly every ban ever.
"While the primary reasons for banning a card from the Ironworks deck are its raw win rate and high GP Top 8 conversion rate..." (emphasis added)
This is a recent example of a Modern-specific ban, so it is very important to consider win rates as a factor in ban decisions. It may not be the sole reason for KCI's ban, but it was by Wizards' own article one of the two "primary reasons."
Who cares? Don't ride ban train or force it... Whoooo cares? We hate bans
not caring, or not wanting bans is completely fine. im personally pretty ambivalent about it. i played the deck for a few weeks then sold the birds and manamorposes into the hype.
the point is that no matter what your stance is you have to acknowledge that its success in high profile tournaments is absurdly high. which includes the fact that decks in the past had cards banned under similar circumstances.
maybe its just a coincidence, maybe the format is correcting itself, or maybe WAR and MH1 will shift the format somewhere else. we can hope these things are true, but cant be certain about them. similarly if you assume that phoenix maintains this established trajectory the result would have the deck sporting 30+ GP top8s within a calender year. so you gotta question whether you are fine with that, and reconcile that other previous decks/cards were not given similar treatment. likely to never see the light of day again given wizards stubborn adherence to conservative ban list management.
and why we talk now about bevore this fantasy year is over? I knew so many people meantime which lost decks to bans and each time people cry for more and more. If you destroy the evidence of costumer, you can play soon standard like my mate after he lost his deck. If you ban each year minimum 1 deck worth 1000 Euro, you frightene people to invest in a long term. They will go out after such an experience. I think a lot of people (not all) calling to bans only want their tier 4 deck more successfully... But they will stay garbage and so they want more bans
Game/format balance should not be held hostage by card prices. If a situation arises where a deck is heads and shoulders above everything else then it should go. 'investments' be damned.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Game/format balance should not be held hostage by card prices. If a situation arises where a deck is heads and shoulders above everything else then it should go. 'investments' be damned.
Sure, in an Eldrazi Winter situation, but I dont believe anyone thinks things are even remotely that bad now.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
The deck was 50% at the latest GP, with the deck warping itself to win in the mirror, and the format warping around itself to beat it...yet it still posted a greater than 50 win%. That's impressive. If you don't cherry pick your data Phoenix has been running between 53-58%. You can argue not to ban something without resorting to obviously ridiculous lies and half truths.
I just dont see why the 'b' word is being used at all. Nobody is asking for bans that I can see.
I want Phoenixes and dredge be banned, so what? And I'm pretty sure there're other people that want bans too but not posting here.
So please, stop saying that "WE" don't want bans.
only Phoenix and dredge? Let's ban storm too preventive to be sure, because if dredge and Phoenix dyes this is good for storm. Maybe soon you can play all day long against your own deck if this is the way you want modern
Play this game long enough and you'll experience both losing out and coming out ahead due to a ban list update. Heck this even happens organically with the introduction of new cards.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
And how often we do this? Yes you can say money is not important, but you can tell this after another ban guys like you and me loosing a lot of money.
It's an open question as to how many bans have actually resulted in devaluation of card prices over the long run. The banned card certainly loses value with few exceptions, but the overall deck might retain value or increase through natural factors unrelated to the ban. One could easily compare historical price data from the time of the ban to the deck's value today. For instance, here are some May 2015 deck prices: http://modernnexus.com/modern-investment-deck-win-rate-to-cost-analysis/
Amulet Bloom was about $575 in May 2015. Wizards banned Bloom in early 2016. Today, MTGGoldfish lists it in the $790 +/- range. Obviously, other factors have increased card value such as format popularity, scarcity, EDH demand, etc., but overall the parcel of Amulet Bloom cards has increased 35%+ since 2015. I suspected this would also be true for URx Twin cards, notably Tarns and Snapcaster. In fact, a cursory glance does suggest this to be true: UR Twin went for about $1,000 in May 2015 and the same parcel of cards goes for about $1,300 +/- today; here's Sam Pardee's old GP Charlotte UR Twin and some other decks for comparison (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/296690#paper).
It's definitely possible that if the cards had gone unbanned, the overall deck would have increased in value even more than it increased naturally. It's also possible that there was a short-term loss in value in the 1-2 year timeframe. But at least in the Twin and Bloom cases, banned decks don't appear to lose value over time in the Modern long run.
But it is important to know how many new cards after 2 years needed in the deck. If it is banned, you don't invest anymore. Another point is, if you loose your deck... You can quit or buy another one. Second choice means a huge invest, so you sell your cards. Which? Cards of your banned deck. This you don't need if you are rich and you use several different decks. Banning is loosing... If you can wait years it can change.. Or not. I can't see future, but I know I need now money if my deck is banned (no I don't own dredge or Phoenix) and not a useless deck
Simple fact is cards will get banned. Maybe not this year, or next, but someday, that is just the unfortunate risk you take playing in a constructive MTG format; WoTC will make mistakes. On the flip side, cards will also get unbanned over time, if deemed safe enough.
Bans do cause some strife within the MTG community but you can't hold a whole format hostage simply because a select few are unwilling to give up their broken toy. If that were the case than we'd still be dealing with Treasure Cruise and Deathrite Shaman.
My question was, How often we ban cards till it is to much? 2 months after last ban, people cryed for another as example. Noone say we should never ban, but which speed? Is it to much for waiting example 1 year? Look at Lear the cat, do you think he stops after Phoenix ban? He say kill dredge too and I am sure even after both banned, he will find another deck we need to ban.. because his plans supporting own decks never will be true this way
Maybe wotc should let open 1 slot in each deck till 6 months bevore it comes out to put 1 good anti card. As example 1 slot in horizon open... See Phoenix is strong... Make a card versus them in this last spot. So it could be a reaction on current meta instead planing 2 years bevore all the cards. Why not try new ways? Allways bannings is bad as a answer
How's anyone supposed to answer that? Every card that got banned in Modern had a different life-span in the format.
Pod had something like 2 or 3 years before it got hit, DRS had a year and a half or so, TC had I think 4-ish months. Most of the cards on the list are put there for different reasons anyway so how do you expect anyone to put a time frame to it.
If WOTC thinks it needs to go, it goes. Simple as that.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
The slippery ban slope is just another appeal to emotion fallacy, often used by those who don't want to see a key card banned from their deck, painting a picture of Modern spiraling into an endless pit of bans. However, this is far from the case. Bans are few and far between, and WotC doesn't make any decision hastily without significant data backing it.
One thing that is never brought up is the influx of players returning to a format after a ban - you can only try to "git gud" for so long before you grow tired of the format.
Lastly, the notion that a majority of Modern players are just salty that their pet decks keep losing is plainly ignorant. My Jund deck loses to Tron, I'm not calling for a ban, unless it somehow starts placing multiple copies in the Top 8 or swells to over 20% of the day two metagame. Additionally, people called for Deathrite Shaman, Treasure Cruise and Eye of Ugin to be banned, and those people were labeled ban wagoners, however, those complaints were definitely justified. Instead of sealing yourself in an echo chamber chanting "Modern is fine! Bans are bad!" people should take what other people say more seriously, as in the case of DRS, Probe and Summer Bloom, there was some merit to their arguments.
Wotc decide, really? We all knew this... But maybe I am sick of reading for bans day after day and if I go to tournaments I hear them talking about bans and even people playing only commander do this I feel. It seems to many players wait only for bans and till it happens they talk like this game is only to be banned. Come on guys, take your time bevore crying and let other players take a breath and let them play
I have a suggestion, and I know it may sound a bit controversial.
If you don't like ban talk, then don't open a thread specifically talking about the State of Modern and B&R.
Crazy, I know.
As Kathal alluded to, this thread exists because that sort of discussion is inevitable on a board about Modern. It's necessary to keep other threads from getting derailed by ban talk. A more practical (and simple) solution: if you don't like ban talk, then don't enter a thread specifically talking about the State of Modern and B&R. Unless that's what you meant by "open," in which case yeah.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Did you understand what I sayed? It's not this tread alone...it is everywhere now and each time I will play in each store.. Everywhere. This happens all time after a ban. People don't be silent, they want more and more bans. Yeah I know, if I don't like it.. I don't need to play. Is it this what comes next? I will play and not be bombarded with bantalkings. Crazy, I know. This tread is not the problem alone, it is part of it. But maybe I should not enter a store too... Yeah, great suggestions... But maybe, only maybe... You all should be a little bit less crying about other decks and more playing and enyoying
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
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I want Phoenixes and dredge be banned, so what? And I'm pretty sure there're other people that want bans too but not posting here.
So please, stop saying that "WE" don't want bans.
I'm also rooting for the London Mulligan getting implemented. It removes some non-games for all decks universally, makes sideboarding more impactful and is more skill intensive than the current rule. That it makes linear decks even more powerful is a tradeoff that can be fixed with bans if needed.
Oh, sorry, feel free to call for bans, I did not see the posts which had started the ban conversation.
Spirits
Under any normal circumstances, Phoenix would eat a ban, and anyone telling themselves otherwise is kidding themselves or making the exact same arguments people complained about Twin defenders making.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
KCI's ban also cited win rates:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/january-21-2019-banned-and-restricted-announcement
"While the primary reasons for banning a card from the Ironworks deck are its raw win rate and high GP Top 8 conversion rate..." (emphasis added)
This is a recent example of a Modern-specific ban, so it is very important to consider win rates as a factor in ban decisions. It may not be the sole reason for KCI's ban, but it was by Wizards' own article one of the two "primary reasons."
Sure, in an Eldrazi Winter situation, but I dont believe anyone thinks things are even remotely that bad now.
Spirits
I simply don't care about the notion that things shouldn't be banned because it hurts some people's wallets.
It's an open question as to how many bans have actually resulted in devaluation of card prices over the long run. The banned card certainly loses value with few exceptions, but the overall deck might retain value or increase through natural factors unrelated to the ban. One could easily compare historical price data from the time of the ban to the deck's value today. For instance, here are some May 2015 deck prices:
http://modernnexus.com/modern-investment-deck-win-rate-to-cost-analysis/
Amulet Bloom was about $575 in May 2015. Wizards banned Bloom in early 2016. Today, MTGGoldfish lists it in the $790 +/- range. Obviously, other factors have increased card value such as format popularity, scarcity, EDH demand, etc., but overall the parcel of Amulet Bloom cards has increased 35%+ since 2015. I suspected this would also be true for URx Twin cards, notably Tarns and Snapcaster. In fact, a cursory glance does suggest this to be true: UR Twin went for about $1,000 in May 2015 and the same parcel of cards goes for about $1,300 +/- today; here's Sam Pardee's old GP Charlotte UR Twin and some other decks for comparison (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/296690#paper).
It's definitely possible that if the cards had gone unbanned, the overall deck would have increased in value even more than it increased naturally. It's also possible that there was a short-term loss in value in the 1-2 year timeframe. But at least in the Twin and Bloom cases, banned decks don't appear to lose value over time in the Modern long run.
Simple fact is cards will get banned. Maybe not this year, or next, but someday, that is just the unfortunate risk you take playing in a constructive MTG format; WoTC will make mistakes. On the flip side, cards will also get unbanned over time, if deemed safe enough.
Bans do cause some strife within the MTG community but you can't hold a whole format hostage simply because a select few are unwilling to give up their broken toy. If that were the case than we'd still be dealing with Treasure Cruise and Deathrite Shaman.
Pod had something like 2 or 3 years before it got hit, DRS had a year and a half or so, TC had I think 4-ish months. Most of the cards on the list are put there for different reasons anyway so how do you expect anyone to put a time frame to it.
If WOTC thinks it needs to go, it goes. Simple as that.
One thing that is never brought up is the influx of players returning to a format after a ban - you can only try to "git gud" for so long before you grow tired of the format.
Lastly, the notion that a majority of Modern players are just salty that their pet decks keep losing is plainly ignorant. My Jund deck loses to Tron, I'm not calling for a ban, unless it somehow starts placing multiple copies in the Top 8 or swells to over 20% of the day two metagame. Additionally, people called for Deathrite Shaman, Treasure Cruise and Eye of Ugin to be banned, and those people were labeled ban wagoners, however, those complaints were definitely justified. Instead of sealing yourself in an echo chamber chanting "Modern is fine! Bans are bad!" people should take what other people say more seriously, as in the case of DRS, Probe and Summer Bloom, there was some merit to their arguments.
If you don't like ban talk, then don't enter a thread specifically talking about the State of Modern and B&R.
Crazy, I know.
Edit: Everyone is a critic. :^)
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy