I made an extended legal no land belcher deck back in.... 2009? That was with rite of flame and seething song legal along with chrome mox. Played it at a seattle ptq with some 120 people. I went off once, right around turn 1. And I lost every round. It's really hard to get to 7 mana. So in summary belcher isn't something to worry about. It had an extra plan of skirk prospector and empty the warrens as a win con with also making mana possibly too.
It had to be no land belcher because it sucks to go off and hit your 1 land in 4 cards. You can now return to 2019 modern discussions.
I mean if we are talking about overall performance, Burn is way over-represented and suffers from generally under performing with a win rate of around 45% in the most recent data.
Could be a thing where there are extra less-skilled players and less-tuned decklists driving the numbers down because it is more of a budget deck, although probably that isn't the whole reason.
The format either has not, will not, or cannot correct itself to deal with Phoenix. Modern Horizons can't come soon enough.
I, on the other hand, welcome our Cracklyboi overlords, and will relish in playing bad blue decks that look like the big bad target deck, but punish people who play and SB as if I was on Phoenix. Because there's no way this deck is successful on its own merits, but I will happily take my W's playing a deck I love that people are playing against incorrectly. Oh, no. Please. Don't Tormod's Crypt me. What ever will I do.
Having played against amulet enough to more or less understand it, I can say with confidence that it has the greatest variance of any combo deck I have ever seen. Unlike an infect or storm combo where, if you can stop the key card you can cause them to lose a lot of resources titan doesn't really put itself far behind when it goes off and faces disruption. If you remove the titan, they just have extra mana to play another or any other wincon. But the deck is a bad midrange deck without amulets. I'm around .500 against it on burn and 3-0 against it since picking up grixis shadow.
Honestly, if dredge, tron and phoenix are going to be on top, amulet is definitely a good pick. Though I'd also consider infect if I had the budget.
I would order cards safe to come back in this order of the ones Mortal Coil listed...
1. Dread Return - even though I've read all the "proof" here of a turn 2 Iona, I just don't see it
2. Sensei's Divining Top - it is only an issue because of players taking too long (I guess that's enough, but it's sad)
As a former legacy player, have have been on the receiving end of a mad rush of multiple zombies from Dredge too many times. Shaped my thinking not to go to any legacy FNM without at least 4 pieces of grave hate. ------ Would Dread Return enable those mad rush of zombies here?
Sensei Top... would this bring to life the Counterbalance-Top kind of decks to modern? If I'm going to lose, I prefer the swift death from aggro .. than to be staring at someone fix their top deck with "top" for who knows how many number of times already.
Besides those two. I agree with the others things you said.
It is not nearly as bad as in Legacy, since many of the really good supporting tools (be it Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, LED or Ichorid) are not legal. This means, while the peak performance is similar (winning on turn 2 based on a Hugs into Dread Return into Griselbrand into Dread Return into Zealot for lethal with a theoretically turn 1 win), the consistency for this is way lower. However, turn 2 wins are already rather feels bad man so I basically see no reason at all to unban it.
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
After reading the past few posts on chrome mox, I can say that if it were legal nothing good would come of it. If the goal is to slow down the format, chrome mox being unbanned is a step in the other direction.
One card for an additional mana source? Yep definitely not broken lol.
EDIT: Just so we're clear yes I understand with the chrome mox it's two cards out of your hand, still leads to degeneracy though.
I'm surprised Amulet didn't get banned over Summer Bloom when they had the chance. But then again, everyone thought the deck was dead without Bloom - joke's on them now
After reading the past few posts on chrome mox, I can say that if it were legal nothing good would come of it. If the goal is to slow down the format, chrome mox being unbanned is a step in the other direction.
One card for an additional mana source? Yep definitely not broken lol.
EDIT: Just so we're clear yes I understand with the chrome mox it's two cards out of your hand, still leads to degeneracy though.
I'd say that it's effect is less degeneracy and more that it makes decks partially homogenized. Basically, unless there's a very good reason not to, you should be starting every deck with 4 Chrome Mox, if it's legal. If anything though, it makes traditionally "fair" decks (aggro, control, ramp, and midrange) better against "unfair" (combo) decks. Admittedly, I think labeling decks "fair" or "unfair" is a bit loaded, but it's how the developers seem to think of things.
I would order cards safe to come back in this order of the ones Mortal Coil listed...
1. Dread Return - even though I've read all the "proof" here of a turn 2 Iona, I just don't see it
2. Sensei's Divining Top - it is only an issue because of players taking too long (I guess that's enough, but it's sad)
As a former legacy player, have have been on the receiving end of a mad rush of multiple zombies from Dredge too many times. Shaped my thinking not to go to any legacy FNM without at least 4 pieces of grave hate. ------ Would Dread Return enable those mad rush of zombies here?
Sensei Top... would this bring to life the Counterbalance-Top kind of decks to modern? If I'm going to lose, I prefer the swift death from aggro .. than to be staring at someone fix their top deck with "top" for who knows how many number of times already.
Besides those two. I agree with the others things you said.
It is not nearly as bad as in Legacy, since many of the really good supporting tools (be it Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, LED or Ichorid) are not legal. This means, while the peak performance is similar (winning on turn 2 based on a Hugs into Dread Return into Griselbrand into Dread Return into Zealot for lethal with a theoretically turn 1 win), the consistency for this is way lower. However, turn 2 wins are already rather feels bad man so I basically see no reason at all to unban it.
Greetings,
Kathal
This. My dude, the last thing you want is Dread Return available to Dredge.
Having played against amulet enough to more or less understand it, I can say with confidence that it has the greatest variance of any combo deck I have ever seen. Unlike an infect or storm combo where, if you can stop the key card you can cause them to lose a lot of resources titan doesn't really put itself far behind when it goes off and faces disruption. If you remove the titan, they just have extra mana to play another or any other wincon. But the deck is a bad midrange deck without amulets. I'm around .500 against it on burn and 3-0 against it since picking up grixis shadow.
Honestly, if dredge, tron and phoenix are going to be on top, amulet is definitely a good pick. Though I'd also consider infect if I had the budget.
I'm surprised Amulet didn't get banned over Summer Bloom when they had the chance. But then again, everyone thought the deck was dead without Bloom - joke's on them now
Honestly, I'm happy they didn't ban it into the ground. I don't buy the hype around the current incarnation of the deck. It's just another resilient combo package with a few low percentage early wins. The only thing exceptional about it is that it doesn't rely on the graveyard as much as other combo shells, so people often don't build sideboards with cards that work well against it. I don't really get why people get resentful about losing to a combo deck, but I see it a lot, since I'm on Dice Factory Combo in paper. It's not as resilient to hate as Amulet combo, but it's got a better early win chance.
PS: Many SCG personalities make the claim that Amulet Titan is the best deck in Modern, if you know the deck's in and outs. Wizards made a great ban in banning Summer Bloom and leaving a Tier 1 Amulet Titan deck behind. Kudos to them!
That's giving a lot of credit to the same room of people that said Kiki Jiki would be just as good as a good as Twin, and that Temur and Jeskai tempo/control decks would be competitively viable replacements. Sometimes their accidents and ignorance work out, sometimes they don't. But to imply they had some deep understanding of the format is flatly wrong.
Now, we have 2 more GP's coming our way, the new Modern Challenges with the new mulligan and of course the Pro Tour to better watch what's about to happen
How many statistically dominant performances does Phoenix need to have in order to be perceived as a problem? The last six months weren't enough? The writing is on the wall that the format, for one reason or another, is either choosing not to deal with Phoenix, or is incapable of dealing with Phoenix. So until Horizons comes, it is going to continue its stranglehold.
And as I said in my post, I'm fine with that. I don't like the deck, but its existence allows me to play bad decks that I do like. Similarly to how Twin helped facilitate non-Twin decks by causing people to play around things that aren't there and being unprepared for what is there. I am happy playing Blue Moon while people side against me with GY hate and creature removal.
I'd say that it's effect is less degeneracy and more that it makes decks partially homogenized. Basically, unless there's a very good reason not to, you should be starting every deck with 4 Chrome Mox, if it's legal. If anything though, it makes traditionally "fair" decks (aggro, control, ramp, and midrange) better against "unfair" (combo) decks. Admittedly, I think labeling decks "fair" or "unfair" is a bit loaded, but it's how the developers seem to think of things.
No, not all decks would run a chrome mox. However, ramping in that manner only really suits combo decks and ramp decks towards early powerful spells. The loss of a card in hand would mean that aggro wouldn't want it since it's trying to just race on curve, and control would only use it in a prison tezzerator build at best. Being able to be possibly two turns up on mana can lead to virtual locks. Either way, what is being accomplished with having this unbanned eludes me.
I mean do we really think Modern Horizons will correct Phoenix Dominance? I don't cause when they were planning Modern Horizons, Phoenix wasn't even out yet and I doubt that WOTC Testing is so great the can predict new decks coming to dominate a format. I mean they didn't even predict chill boosting Dredge back to Tier 1. Granted its more likely WOTC just decides to toss in graveyard hate.
I think they predicted uprising of dredge and risks with Phoenix.
I think that the main reason they unleashed the Dredhe was bcs before second Ravnica set UW Miracles were dominating metagame (it was summer 2018) and they fast reanimated dredge as counterdeck.
I think they predicted uprising of dredge and risks with Phoenix.
I think that the main reason they unleashed the Dredhe was bcs before second Ravnica set UW Miracles were dominating metagame (it was summer 2018) and they fast reanimated dredge as counterdeck.
The funny thing about creating a "counter deck" to control is that it's really easy considering how control is a meta dependent pick at best and doesn't stay reigning for long.
Every time Jeskai, Grixis, or UW do well they immediately get hated out. It has at best a month or two before being returned to the gulag. I love control doesn't mean it's a dominating choice.
EDIT: Maybe gulag is a bad choice of words, not trying to be that dramatic. However, there is no equivalent to SDT miracle or Grixis control equivalent in modern. Nothing has ever been that dominant for a prolonged period of time which isn't bad just the reality.
Well control works best when deck diversity is down. Funny enough Control would be better if Dredge and Phoenix were more dominate. Also Amulet Titan looks really good and Death Shadow is good.
I think they predicted uprising of dredge and risks with Phoenix.
I think that the main reason they unleashed the Dredhe was bcs before second Ravnica set UW Miracles were dominating metagame (it was summer 2018) and they fast reanimated dredge as counterdeck.
Sets are designed years in advance. The turnaround time needed to react to the tiny blip of time when UW was good would have meant they saw that and reacted within.... 3 months?
I think the more realistic series of events for cards like Creeping Chill would be like: "Hey, let's make a Dimir card that works well with our set mechanic: Surveil. Maybe Dredge could use it in Modern to...?"
I highly doubt someone sat down and said: "Hey, you know that mechanic we hate? The one that leads to a 'battle of sideboards'? Let's make it better by making a free, uncounterable Lightning Helix!"
the notion that wizards is crafting metagame cycles with nuance and subtlety is pretty absurd if you ask me. it isnt anything to do with incompetence either, rather just that the system is way to complex to accomplish anything with that sort of accuracy.
i mean do you honestly believe that wizards just knew that amulet titan was secretly better than people thought it was for years? or that UR phoenix would be built in just a fashion to push back against bant spirits, which rose in response to other decks including kci, that they then banned leading to rise of whir prison decks? all while designing cards 2+ years beforehand?
everything looks so clear in hindsight, but card evaluation is notoriously difficult for the community and 'expert' players alike; which means its likely the same for the design staff. best you can do is work in broad strokes to nudge the ship in the right direction, and then hope it goes somewhere good. this requires cards with some risk of becoming one of the many 'mistakes' armchair design/format experts love to scorn.
for instance i dont believe for a second that wizards just overlooked that creeping chill works with the dredge mechanic. i do however believe they thought it an acceptable risk at the time to maybe boost a deck that had mostly fallen out of prominence after the GGT ban.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I'm surprised Amulet didn't get banned over Summer Bloom when they had the chance. But then again, everyone thought the deck was dead without Bloom - joke's on them now
Turn 2 Summer Bloom makes a turn 3 Primeval Titan. Yes, it's way less powerful with come into play lands that won't untap, but I'm assuming they thought leaving the "Summer Bloom" effect on creatures like Sakura-Tribe Scout and Azusa, Lost but Seeking, with a much worse "Summer Bloom" in Explore all together would make the deck weaker. The deck is definitely weaker overall. Some matchups turned from literally pretty damn close to 90/10 to 60/40. However, 60/40 is still a solid matchup.
I think players nowadays know how to play better against Amulet, along with new tools printed like Damping Sphere (God I hate that card), leads to players not doing as powerful things as they used to.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Only card from Phoenix I would want under a watchlist is Manamorphose, not Faithless Looting. It's really the card that enables the fast phoenix starts, quick Awoken Horrors, and makes Pyromancer's Ascension go crazy. Deck is still perfectly viable without Manamorphose, just slower.
Besides, I'd rather kill only storm than kill off dredge, mardu pyromancer, griselbrand decks, UR Livind End, Hollow One and the many other decks that currently or may in the future use looting.
And even then, storm always seems to bounce back from getting its cards banned (Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Ponder + Preordain, Gitaxian Probe).
Again, just something for the watchlist. I think it's too soon for any action to be taken yet.
Only card from Phoenix I would want under a watchlist is Manamorphose, not Faithless Looting. It's really the card that enables the fast phoenix starts, quick Awoken Horrors, and makes Pyromancer's Ascension go crazy. Deck is still perfectly viable without Manamorphose, just slower.
Besides, I'd rather kill only storm than kill off dredge, mardu pyromancer, griselbrand decks, UR Livind End, Hollow One and the many other decks that currently or may in the future use looting.
And even then, storm always seems to bounce back from getting its cards banned (Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Ponder + Preordain, Gitaxian Probe).
Again, just something for the watchlist. I think it's too soon for any action to be taken yet.
It feels good to see that there's actually someone else that thinks like me on this. Everyone at my LGS says I'm crazy for thinking that Manamorphose should be banned. I really think it's the biggest offender we have in the format, making the deck thinner like it does is too dangerous.
One could argue that we have more 0 mana cantrips but if you think about it, Bauble has a delayed draw and SWraith costs 2 life, and neither of them is a sorcery/instant, which is a huge difference since most of the Xerox decks care about it.
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Currently Playing: WUMiracles ControlUW RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
Only card from Phoenix I would want under a watchlist is Manamorphose, not Faithless Looting. It's really the card that enables the fast phoenix starts, quick Awoken Horrors, and makes Pyromancer's Ascension go crazy. Deck is still perfectly viable without Manamorphose, just slower.
Besides, I'd rather kill only storm than kill off dredge, mardu pyromancer, griselbrand decks, UR Livind End, Hollow One and the many other decks that currently or may in the future use looting.
And even then, storm always seems to bounce back from getting its cards banned (Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Ponder + Preordain, Gitaxian Probe).
Again, just something for the watchlist. I think it's too soon for any action to be taken yet.
Very good eye (pun painfully intended). Manamorphose is a very good card for what it does in both storm and izzet Phoenix. I would even claim in storm's case it is more powerful than preordain and possibly even more powerful than ponder especially when there is a cost reducer on the field.
This isn't to say that those cards should be released into modern, just that Manamorphose is subtly way more powerful than it leads someone to believe at face value.
I'm surprised Amulet didn't get banned over Summer Bloom when they had the chance. But then again, everyone thought the deck was dead without Bloom - joke's on them now
Turn 2 Summer Bloom makes a turn 3 Primeval Titan. Yes, it's way less powerful with come into play lands that won't untap, but I'm assuming they thought leaving the "Summer Bloom" effect on creatures like Sakura-Tribe Scout and Azusa, Lost but Seeking, with a much worse "Summer Bloom" in Explore all together would make the deck weaker. The deck is definitely weaker overall. Some matchups turned from literally pretty damn close to 90/10 to 60/40. However, 60/40 is still a solid matchup.
I think players nowadays know how to play better against Amulet, along with new tools printed like Damping Sphere (God I hate that card), leads to players not doing as powerful things as they used to.
I like the fact that most of Wizard's bannings leave other playable cards behind, or that they are trying to fix that in the future. Birthing Pod was the only ban without replacement, but Wizards printed multiple cards to make up for it(Collected Company, Eldritch Evolution, Prime Speaker Vannnifar, Neoform). Splinter Twin's replacement was Kiki-Jiki, the mirror breaker, and I read somewhere that Maro would be reluctant in printing such an effect in Standard again, because problems, although they could find the space to print a 4 mana Kiki jiki that is boltable and requires 1RRR in MH, where it will not affect type 2(although I doubt it). Also, control decks like UW top 8 often enough, and Jeskai is a thing(also Esper nearly won the last SCG tour), so one could flee into control decks, like I did for a brief period of time. I really think that every people that complains about control being useless after watching an Esper deck nearly winning the recent SCG is laughably wrong. Like, come on, you are going to play into an FNM, and you can't try the Esper build because it's bad? Your FNM is a lot worse than this SCG. That said, I consider control decks to be an expansion of Twin, so if you ask me it's banning left multiple playable decks behind. I know the vocal "unban Twin/Wizards is incompetent" minority will disagree here, but I am sure I will disagree with everything they will say and so will Wizards, so I don't care to answer back on it and I won't with this kind of attitude. Wizards is trying their best and they are currently adding a whole Modern set to out collection. That's enough for me.
Infect got nerfed, but if it wasn't for Fatal Push, the deck would still be a great deck to have. Amulet Titan is tier 1 and one of the 3 or 5 modern's best decks. Dredge is still Tier 1, with the recent additions. Eldra Tron is still a thing if you want to play that.
Every ban decision has been fine if you ask me.
Now, a possible Faithless Looting ban would affect too many decks in the region of 1000 euros and would outright destroy them, so I doubt it will ever happen. More cards like Damping Sphere or Containment Priest is the solution we all need, so that people's sideboards are filled with better cards like those and we get to fight those kind of decks.
People have said this sort of thing about each of the bans you mentioned: that they would destroy the deck getting hit. But as you noted, those decks have lived on. I think many of the cards in Looting decks would continue to see heavy play in Modern, as most of the Twin cards did regardless of that deck actually becoming unplayable (and Pod, temporarily). Besides, we know that Wizards doesn't care about hitting money decks from their previous bans. Just format health.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'd say that it's effect is less degeneracy and more that it makes decks partially homogenized. Basically, unless there's a very good reason not to, you should be starting every deck with 4 Chrome Mox, if it's legal. If anything though, it makes traditionally "fair" decks (aggro, control, ramp, and midrange) better against "unfair" (combo) decks. Admittedly, I think labeling decks "fair" or "unfair" is a bit loaded, but it's how the developers seem to think of things.
No, not all decks would run a chrome mox. However, ramping in that manner only really suits combo decks and ramp decks towards early powerful spells. The loss of a card in hand would mean that aggro wouldn't want it since it's trying to just race on curve, and control would only use it in a prison tezzerator build at best. Being able to be possibly two turns up on mana can lead to virtual locks. Either way, what is being accomplished with having this unbanned eludes me.
Basically all major archetypes in NBLM can or do run Chrome Mox, if they can support it. UWx Miracles, Tezzerator, WW, Storm (Non-Swath builds at least; PiF Storm builds love Chrome Mox, since they can absorb the CA hit), UR Turbo Twin, Pyroclamp, Elves, Dredge, GBx Hexdepths, 12 post, Bant Pod, Shoal Infect, Fairies... Really, the only decks that don't run it are Affinity, Eggs, Living End, Hypergenesis, and Eldrazi Aggro. Affinity and Eggs get Mox Opal as a replacement. Living End and Hypergenesis can't run it but usually have SSG in the list as a pseudo-Mox, though even the terrible lists that run off of the Expertise cycle from Kaladesh and As Foretold use Chrome Mox. Eldrazi get their Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temples, but the lack of a viable Mox replacement is a major issue with the deck. It's why they tend to get wrecked by Bridge decks and by Miracles.
Honestly, I think that Chrome Mox is probably the format defining card of NBLM. No other card has warped the meta on the same scale; not even Dark Depths or Skullclamp, which is insane.
After reading the past few posts on chrome mox, I can say that if it were legal nothing good would come of it. If the goal is to slow down the format, chrome mox being unbanned is a step in the other direction.
One card for an additional mana source? Yep definitely not broken lol.
EDIT: Just so we're clear yes I understand with the chrome mox it's two cards out of your hand, still leads to degeneracy though.
I'd say that it's effect is less degeneracy and more that it makes decks partially homogenized. Basically, unless there's a very good reason not to, you should be starting every deck with 4 Chrome Mox, if it's legal. If anything though, it makes traditionally "fair" decks (aggro, control, ramp, and midrange) better against "unfair" (combo) decks. Admittedly, I think labeling decks "fair" or "unfair" is a bit loaded, but it's how the developers seem to think of things.
I would order cards safe to come back in this order of the ones Mortal Coil listed...
1. Dread Return - even though I've read all the "proof" here of a turn 2 Iona, I just don't see it
2. Sensei's Divining Top - it is only an issue because of players taking too long (I guess that's enough, but it's sad)
As a former legacy player, have have been on the receiving end of a mad rush of multiple zombies from Dredge too many times. Shaped my thinking not to go to any legacy FNM without at least 4 pieces of grave hate. ------ Would Dread Return enable those mad rush of zombies here?
Sensei Top... would this bring to life the Counterbalance-Top kind of decks to modern? If I'm going to lose, I prefer the swift death from aggro .. than to be staring at someone fix their top deck with "top" for who knows how many number of times already.
Besides those two. I agree with the others things you said.
It is not nearly as bad as in Legacy, since many of the really good supporting tools (be it Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, LED or Ichorid) are not legal. This means, while the peak performance is similar (winning on turn 2 based on a Hugs into Dread Return into Griselbrand into Dread Return into Zealot for lethal with a theoretically turn 1 win), the consistency for this is way lower. However, turn 2 wins are already rather feels bad man so I basically see no reason at all to unban it.
Greetings,
Kathal
This. My dude, the last thing you want is Dread Return available to Dredge.
Having played against amulet enough to more or less understand it, I can say with confidence that it has the greatest variance of any combo deck I have ever seen. Unlike an infect or storm combo where, if you can stop the key card you can cause them to lose a lot of resources titan doesn't really put itself far behind when it goes off and faces disruption. If you remove the titan, they just have extra mana to play another or any other wincon. But the deck is a bad midrange deck without amulets. I'm around .500 against it on burn and 3-0 against it since picking up grixis shadow.
Honestly, if dredge, tron and phoenix are going to be on top, amulet is definitely a good pick. Though I'd also consider infect if I had the budget.
I'm surprised Amulet didn't get banned over Summer Bloom when they had the chance. But then again, everyone thought the deck was dead without Bloom - joke's on them now
Honestly, I'm happy they didn't ban it into the ground. I don't buy the hype around the current incarnation of the deck. It's just another resilient combo package with a few low percentage early wins. The only thing exceptional about it is that it doesn't rely on the graveyard as much as other combo shells, so people often don't build sideboards with cards that work well against it. I don't really get why people get resentful about losing to a combo deck, but I see it a lot, since I'm on Dice Factory Combo in paper. It's not as resilient to hate as Amulet combo, but it's got a better early win chance.
I'm glad as well. I honestly hate that it has the double Amulet fast combo kill because outside of that line, its more of a tooblbox style deck than anything else. If it didn't have that double amulet kill, I think the deck wouldn't get as much as a bad rep as it does, especially since a lot pf people don't know how the deck actually works (people literally ask me "Am I dead" when I just cast a titan with 1 Amulet in play) and Summer Bloom is still remembered.
I am a combo deck defender, as I think a lot of the time people unfairly are too afraid of combo decks. They get banned faster than anything else, as the fear of "two ships passing in the night: the format" is a real thing. But right now, combo (outside dredge) is pretty low and I think Amulet is a good place for combo to be for Modern
I think many of the cards in Looting decks would continue to see heavy play in Modern, as most of the Twin cards did regardless of that deck actually becoming unplayable
To be fair, several of the expensive cards absolutely tanked in value. It's actually what helped allow me to pick up my foil Cryptics, foil Remands, foil Cliques, foil Sulfur Falls, foil Snaps, foil Tarns, etc. Many of the cards (especially foils) took a 30-50%+ drop in value with the ban and subsequent unplayableness of the colors for the nest few years, a few were paired with reprints that crippled them even worse (since it was the double whammy of increased supply and lack of demand) which was why I gobbled them up as much as possible in that time.
It had to be no land belcher because it sucks to go off and hit your 1 land in 4 cards. You can now return to 2019 modern discussions.
Could be a thing where there are extra less-skilled players and less-tuned decklists driving the numbers down because it is more of a budget deck, although probably that isn't the whole reason.
- 21% of the SCG Open Day 2
- 25% of the Top 16 of the Classic
- 28% of the Top 32 of the Open
- 2 copies each in the Open and Classic Top 8s
- Winner of the Classic.
The format either has not, will not, or cannot correct itself to deal with Phoenix. Modern Horizons can't come soon enough.I, on the other hand, welcome our Cracklyboi overlords, and will relish in playing bad blue decks that look like the big bad target deck, but punish people who play and SB as if I was on Phoenix. Because there's no way this deck is successful on its own merits, but I will happily take my W's playing a deck I love that people are playing against incorrectly. Oh, no. Please. Don't Tormod's Crypt me. What ever will I do.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Honestly, if dredge, tron and phoenix are going to be on top, amulet is definitely a good pick. Though I'd also consider infect if I had the budget.
As a former legacy player, have have been on the receiving end of a mad rush of multiple zombies from Dredge too many times. Shaped my thinking not to go to any legacy FNM without at least 4 pieces of grave hate.
Sensei Top... would this bring to life the Counterbalance-Top kind of decks to modern? If I'm going to lose, I prefer the swift death from aggro .. than to be staring at someone fix their top deck with "top" for who knows how many number of times already.
Besides those two. I agree with the others things you said.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
One card for an additional mana source? Yep definitely not broken lol.
EDIT: Just so we're clear yes I understand with the chrome mox it's two cards out of your hand, still leads to degeneracy though.
I'd say that it's effect is less degeneracy and more that it makes decks partially homogenized. Basically, unless there's a very good reason not to, you should be starting every deck with 4 Chrome Mox, if it's legal. If anything though, it makes traditionally "fair" decks (aggro, control, ramp, and midrange) better against "unfair" (combo) decks. Admittedly, I think labeling decks "fair" or "unfair" is a bit loaded, but it's how the developers seem to think of things.
This. My dude, the last thing you want is Dread Return available to Dredge.
Honestly, I'm happy they didn't ban it into the ground. I don't buy the hype around the current incarnation of the deck. It's just another resilient combo package with a few low percentage early wins. The only thing exceptional about it is that it doesn't rely on the graveyard as much as other combo shells, so people often don't build sideboards with cards that work well against it. I don't really get why people get resentful about losing to a combo deck, but I see it a lot, since I'm on Dice Factory Combo in paper. It's not as resilient to hate as Amulet combo, but it's got a better early win chance.
That's giving a lot of credit to the same room of people that said Kiki Jiki would be just as good as a good as Twin, and that Temur and Jeskai tempo/control decks would be competitively viable replacements. Sometimes their accidents and ignorance work out, sometimes they don't. But to imply they had some deep understanding of the format is flatly wrong.
How many statistically dominant performances does Phoenix need to have in order to be perceived as a problem? The last six months weren't enough? The writing is on the wall that the format, for one reason or another, is either choosing not to deal with Phoenix, or is incapable of dealing with Phoenix. So until Horizons comes, it is going to continue its stranglehold.
And as I said in my post, I'm fine with that. I don't like the deck, but its existence allows me to play bad decks that I do like. Similarly to how Twin helped facilitate non-Twin decks by causing people to play around things that aren't there and being unprepared for what is there. I am happy playing Blue Moon while people side against me with GY hate and creature removal.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
No, not all decks would run a chrome mox. However, ramping in that manner only really suits combo decks and ramp decks towards early powerful spells. The loss of a card in hand would mean that aggro wouldn't want it since it's trying to just race on curve, and control would only use it in a prison tezzerator build at best. Being able to be possibly two turns up on mana can lead to virtual locks. Either way, what is being accomplished with having this unbanned eludes me.
I think that the main reason they unleashed the Dredhe was bcs before second Ravnica set UW Miracles were dominating metagame (it was summer 2018) and they fast reanimated dredge as counterdeck.
The funny thing about creating a "counter deck" to control is that it's really easy considering how control is a meta dependent pick at best and doesn't stay reigning for long.
Every time Jeskai, Grixis, or UW do well they immediately get hated out. It has at best a month or two before being returned to the gulag. I love control doesn't mean it's a dominating choice.
EDIT: Maybe gulag is a bad choice of words, not trying to be that dramatic. However, there is no equivalent to SDT miracle or Grixis control equivalent in modern. Nothing has ever been that dominant for a prolonged period of time which isn't bad just the reality.
I think the more realistic series of events for cards like Creeping Chill would be like: "Hey, let's make a Dimir card that works well with our set mechanic: Surveil. Maybe Dredge could use it in Modern to...?"
I highly doubt someone sat down and said: "Hey, you know that mechanic we hate? The one that leads to a 'battle of sideboards'? Let's make it better by making a free, uncounterable Lightning Helix!"
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
i mean do you honestly believe that wizards just knew that amulet titan was secretly better than people thought it was for years? or that UR phoenix would be built in just a fashion to push back against bant spirits, which rose in response to other decks including kci, that they then banned leading to rise of whir prison decks? all while designing cards 2+ years beforehand?
everything looks so clear in hindsight, but card evaluation is notoriously difficult for the community and 'expert' players alike; which means its likely the same for the design staff. best you can do is work in broad strokes to nudge the ship in the right direction, and then hope it goes somewhere good. this requires cards with some risk of becoming one of the many 'mistakes' armchair design/format experts love to scorn.
for instance i dont believe for a second that wizards just overlooked that creeping chill works with the dredge mechanic. i do however believe they thought it an acceptable risk at the time to maybe boost a deck that had mostly fallen out of prominence after the GGT ban.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Turn 2 Summer Bloom makes a turn 3 Primeval Titan. Yes, it's way less powerful with come into play lands that won't untap, but I'm assuming they thought leaving the "Summer Bloom" effect on creatures like Sakura-Tribe Scout and Azusa, Lost but Seeking, with a much worse "Summer Bloom" in Explore all together would make the deck weaker. The deck is definitely weaker overall. Some matchups turned from literally pretty damn close to 90/10 to 60/40. However, 60/40 is still a solid matchup.
I think players nowadays know how to play better against Amulet, along with new tools printed like Damping Sphere (God I hate that card), leads to players not doing as powerful things as they used to.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Besides, I'd rather kill only storm than kill off dredge, mardu pyromancer, griselbrand decks, UR Livind End, Hollow One and the many other decks that currently or may in the future use looting.
And even then, storm always seems to bounce back from getting its cards banned (Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Ponder + Preordain, Gitaxian Probe).
Again, just something for the watchlist. I think it's too soon for any action to be taken yet.
One could argue that we have more 0 mana cantrips but if you think about it, Bauble has a delayed draw and SWraith costs 2 life, and neither of them is a sorcery/instant, which is a huge difference since most of the Xerox decks care about it.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
Very good eye (pun painfully intended). Manamorphose is a very good card for what it does in both storm and izzet Phoenix. I would even claim in storm's case it is more powerful than preordain and possibly even more powerful than ponder especially when there is a cost reducer on the field.
This isn't to say that those cards should be released into modern, just that Manamorphose is subtly way more powerful than it leads someone to believe at face value.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Basically all major archetypes in NBLM can or do run Chrome Mox, if they can support it. UWx Miracles, Tezzerator, WW, Storm (Non-Swath builds at least; PiF Storm builds love Chrome Mox, since they can absorb the CA hit), UR Turbo Twin, Pyroclamp, Elves, Dredge, GBx Hexdepths, 12 post, Bant Pod, Shoal Infect, Fairies... Really, the only decks that don't run it are Affinity, Eggs, Living End, Hypergenesis, and Eldrazi Aggro. Affinity and Eggs get Mox Opal as a replacement. Living End and Hypergenesis can't run it but usually have SSG in the list as a pseudo-Mox, though even the terrible lists that run off of the Expertise cycle from Kaladesh and As Foretold use Chrome Mox. Eldrazi get their Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temples, but the lack of a viable Mox replacement is a major issue with the deck. It's why they tend to get wrecked by Bridge decks and by Miracles.
Honestly, I think that Chrome Mox is probably the format defining card of NBLM. No other card has warped the meta on the same scale; not even Dark Depths or Skullclamp, which is insane.
I'm glad as well. I honestly hate that it has the double Amulet fast combo kill because outside of that line, its more of a tooblbox style deck than anything else. If it didn't have that double amulet kill, I think the deck wouldn't get as much as a bad rep as it does, especially since a lot pf people don't know how the deck actually works (people literally ask me "Am I dead" when I just cast a titan with 1 Amulet in play) and Summer Bloom is still remembered.
I am a combo deck defender, as I think a lot of the time people unfairly are too afraid of combo decks. They get banned faster than anything else, as the fear of "two ships passing in the night: the format" is a real thing. But right now, combo (outside dredge) is pretty low and I think Amulet is a good place for combo to be for Modern
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
To be fair, several of the expensive cards absolutely tanked in value. It's actually what helped allow me to pick up my foil Cryptics, foil Remands, foil Cliques, foil Sulfur Falls, foil Snaps, foil Tarns, etc. Many of the cards (especially foils) took a 30-50%+ drop in value with the ban and subsequent unplayableness of the colors for the nest few years, a few were paired with reprints that crippled them even worse (since it was the double whammy of increased supply and lack of demand) which was why I gobbled them up as much as possible in that time.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate