Dredge vs Phoenix
Scales vs Dredge
Phoenix vs Shadow
Shift vs Scales
Next.set.when?
Could lead to some very monotone semis and finals. Imagine if they did it the way I listed on the last page? LOL. Would have been 3 mirrors and a lopsided, fingers-crossed race.
Could lead to some very monotone semis and finals. Imagine if they did it the way I listed on the last page? LOL. Would have been 3 mirrors and a lopsided, fingers-crossed race.
Yeah I mean, I still play Phoenix now and again, but people are fooling themselves if they think this just 'gets better'. Those articles linked months back, on Xerox vs Denial, are fundamental to Magic.
We have hit Xerox. Between Phoenix, and Shadow, we are there.
Denial is Rock, and Terminus, and if those get powered up?
I see a lot of posts on the "people are not getting it" line and I am not sure if it's true. Now, I am not saying it is UNtrue, but rather, we would need some data for it.
For example the Faeries master went X-3 yet again missing on another top 8 by a match, and he was packing 6 pieces of GY hate in the SB. How much more than that does one need to go and where is the line that says that GY strategies are a bit too wrapping?
Again, I am not claiming that that's the case, but if we see control decks packing main-deck GY hate, decks with 6+ GY hate SB cards, doesn't it become all too much? What's the silver line here on GY hate vs meta wrapping? What are the data that prove that people are just unprepared?
yes and he played great an is easy in top 32 of a very big tournament and crushed Phoenix in stream. He understand it.... With faeries
The fact the format has gotten to the point where you have to play main deck GY hate says enough about modern as a format right now. Both these decks have been everywhere online for a while now as well so these two decks being the clear best decks in the room should be no surprise going into this tournament. I mean the last modern MTGO PTQ has 4 dredge decks in the top 8
Lets get some things right:
There were a lot of time periods, where it was correct to have MD hate cards, since a specific strategy was running rampant. MD Graveyard hate was played way back after Inistrad got released, to shut down the Jeskai and BGx decks, while also being decent vs Pod and Loam (was a contender back than). You basically wanted graveyard hate against roughly 30-40% of the field, so it was (somewhat) correct to just play them MD.
There were time periods where artefact hate was a good choice to run in the MD, or even LD (or lifegain in the post Theors pre Khans format). It always depends on the given meta.
Am I shocked to see that many "Looting" decks running around? Nah, Looting is the "Brainstorm" of Modern, slower and clunkier but still being able to ditch the bad cards to draw (potential) good ones. I said this since Khans, and I have been playing Looting in Delver since back in the days, cause of that exact reason (just 2 btw). Will Looting get banned? Hell no, it enables so many different decks (similar to Stirrings btw).
Especially Phoenix is just the premier Spike deck, as ktk pointed out, easy to pick up with a potential high ceiling. People flock around those decks, especially when they are also fun to play. It somewhat reminds me of Twin btw
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
another GP with multiple copies of phoenix in the top8. so as i said with the last GP, this is just one more data point if someone was building a case for phoenix being problematic. 3 more modern GPs in the next month(ish). so should be some good data.
some anecdotal info; my local scene is dominated by phoenix as well. i personally play it (played jeskai the last week and a half though), but its easily 25-30 percent of the field at the 2 lgs i play at (between different phoenix builds).
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Phoenix gets wrecked by fair, interactive, control and midrange decks. It's just that fair, interactive, control and midrange decks are somewhere aggressively mediocre and outright terrible in the grand scheme of Modern.
However, one of the big reasons I stopped playing it locally, because we have a bunch of stubborn Jund and control players. So it's this weird dichotomy where the deck is "too good" against "the meta," but totally fine against decks that are objectively less powerful, but popular in some areas.
Yeah, Phoenix is a totally beatable deck with real weaknesses, as much as GDS was. UWx Control decks, DS decks, Jund/Abzan decks + Burn + Tron, and also fast combo decks win vs Phoenix.
But, yet again, people were screaming for bans back in the days DS was invented.
I think you undersell phoenix, criminally.
cfusionpm is right, fair decks can beat up hard on Phoenix, but...people dont play them in Modern because outside a narrow metagame, fair decks suck.
HolyDiva used to say, in a race meta, Bloo was king, and Phoenix is just a shade on the more fair resilient side of Bloo, there is a reason its the deck of the event, again.
anyone have the GP data for GDS in the second half of 2017? that is really when the deck blew up, and as far as i know its still holds the title of having the biggest hype + success while avoiding a ban. humans is probably a close second.
it might give some perspective on how much rope phoenix gets before it hangs itself.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
cfusionpm is right, fair decks can beat up hard on Phoenix, but...people dont play them in Modern because outside a narrow metagame, fair decks suck.
From my experience with way too many fair decks, it seems like the good matchups are only barely, marginally good, but the bad matchups are unbelievably bad.
We saw this first hand with the masterful deck design and play lines of Yuta Takahashi and UB Fae get roflstomped by land drops and top-decked green cards to get knocked out of the Top 8.
cfusionpm is right, fair decks can beat up hard on Phoenix, but...people dont play them in Modern because outside a narrow metagame, fair decks suck.
From my experience with way too many fair decks, it seems like the good matchups are only barely, marginally good, but the bad matchups are unbelievably bad.
We saw this first hand with the masterful deck design and play lines of Yuta Takahashi and UB Fae get roflstomped by land drops and top-decked green cards to get knocked out of the Top 8.
Thats the real kicker. A master of his craft, with true love and passion for his archetype, fights tooth and nail to top 32-16 over and over, meanwhile you can literally put Standard cards into your deck because you dont have the Modern equal's, and on the back of Phoenix, Looting, and Cantrips, do well.
Its why despite it being the deck I play, I wish I could play Blue Moon instead, but who chooses to lose? Not me, I've got better ways to waste my time.
if deathrite could only be cast with green i think itd be an alright card in the format. unfortunately the hybrid cost leave it opened to be played in literally every shard/wedge sans jeskai.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
If we're jumping on the baseless speculation unban train, if there's ever been a time to release Twin, it's when the best deck in the format is a UR deck that not only doesn't want, but cant reasonably even try to play that card or support the shell. Not happening, because WOTC has a personal vendetta against it, but it's something to think about.
I really hope they don't make any more ban decisions before we get Modern Horizons. That set is probably going to cause some changes in the format, so I'd rather wait and see what happens with that than ban anything right now.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I dont think they will ban until after Horizons either. What is the verdict on the London Mulligan? Seems like the usual suspects won anyway carried by Looting so lets hope Horizons brings the means to put Phoenix and Dredge in check. Control and Midrange need some serious help lol. Presumably lower on the curve.
Ah my bad. Yeah no bans until after the new London Mulligan Rule and Horizons come out so not until May or June I guess. I am looking more at Horizon to boost Control and Midrange in the face of aggro and grave recursion abuse more then the Mulligan though. I say combo but my impression is WOTC likes combo shackled.
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UR Phoenix
UR Phoenix
Dredge
Dredge
Hardened Scales
Hardened Scales
Grixis Shadow
Titanshift
d i v e r s i t y
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Dredge vs Phoenix
Scales vs Dredge
Phoenix vs Shadow
Shift vs Scales
Next.set.when?
You keep saying this, but this is what Modern really is, is that fine to you really?
Spirits
Could lead to some very monotone semis and finals. Imagine if they did it the way I listed on the last page? LOL. Would have been 3 mirrors and a lopsided, fingers-crossed race.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Yeah I mean, I still play Phoenix now and again, but people are fooling themselves if they think this just 'gets better'. Those articles linked months back, on Xerox vs Denial, are fundamental to Magic.
We have hit Xerox. Between Phoenix, and Shadow, we are there.
Denial is Rock, and Terminus, and if those get powered up?
Yuck.
Spirits
Lets get some things right:
There were a lot of time periods, where it was correct to have MD hate cards, since a specific strategy was running rampant. MD Graveyard hate was played way back after Inistrad got released, to shut down the Jeskai and BGx decks, while also being decent vs Pod and Loam (was a contender back than). You basically wanted graveyard hate against roughly 30-40% of the field, so it was (somewhat) correct to just play them MD.
There were time periods where artefact hate was a good choice to run in the MD, or even LD (or lifegain in the post Theors pre Khans format). It always depends on the given meta.
Am I shocked to see that many "Looting" decks running around? Nah, Looting is the "Brainstorm" of Modern, slower and clunkier but still being able to ditch the bad cards to draw (potential) good ones. I said this since Khans, and I have been playing Looting in Delver since back in the days, cause of that exact reason (just 2 btw). Will Looting get banned? Hell no, it enables so many different decks (similar to Stirrings btw).
Especially Phoenix is just the premier Spike deck, as ktk pointed out, easy to pick up with a potential high ceiling. People flock around those decks, especially when they are also fun to play. It somewhat reminds me of Twin btw
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Spirits
some anecdotal info; my local scene is dominated by phoenix as well. i personally play it (played jeskai the last week and a half though), but its easily 25-30 percent of the field at the 2 lgs i play at (between different phoenix builds).
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)No FoW to stop it, and those Xerox days are gone soon.
Yeah I have 3 abrades, 2 rejection, because Chalice is so obnoxious.
Spirits
Spirits
Phoenix gets wrecked by fair, interactive, control and midrange decks. It's just that fair, interactive, control and midrange decks are somewhere aggressively mediocre and outright terrible in the grand scheme of Modern.
However, one of the big reasons I stopped playing it locally, because we have a bunch of stubborn Jund and control players. So it's this weird dichotomy where the deck is "too good" against "the meta," but totally fine against decks that are objectively less powerful, but popular in some areas.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think you undersell phoenix, criminally.
cfusionpm is right, fair decks can beat up hard on Phoenix, but...people dont play them in Modern because outside a narrow metagame, fair decks suck.
HolyDiva used to say, in a race meta, Bloo was king, and Phoenix is just a shade on the more fair resilient side of Bloo, there is a reason its the deck of the event, again.
Spirits
it might give some perspective on how much rope phoenix gets before it hangs itself.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Spirits
From my experience with way too many fair decks, it seems like the good matchups are only barely, marginally good, but the bad matchups are unbelievably bad.
We saw this first hand with the masterful deck design and play lines of Yuta Takahashi and UB Fae get roflstomped by land drops and top-decked green cards to get knocked out of the Top 8.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Thats the real kicker. A master of his craft, with true love and passion for his archetype, fights tooth and nail to top 32-16 over and over, meanwhile you can literally put Standard cards into your deck because you dont have the Modern equal's, and on the back of Phoenix, Looting, and Cantrips, do well.
Its why despite it being the deck I play, I wish I could play Blue Moon instead, but who chooses to lose? Not me, I've got better ways to waste my time.
Spirits
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Oh, and blah blah, Stoneforge is a joke, etc etc.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)