The commentary about Tithe Taker just mentions that they considered whether it should be a Human because of Modern. However, there is a direct statement in the commentary about Electrodominance:
"...Can Modern handle that pressure? Most likely. Are you certain? We tested it in Modern, and it should be fun and powerful but not oppressive..."
The commentary about Tithe Taker just mentions that they considered whether it should be a Human because of Modern. However, there is a direct statement in the commentary about Electrodominance:
"...Can Modern handle that pressure? Most likely. Are you certain? We tested it in Modern, and it should be fun and powerful but not oppressive..."
So glad you mentioned this article. Here are some other relevant quotes:
Re: Tithe Taker
"Noting that Modern has a strong Humans deck, we want to make sure nothing gets too oppressive or breaks in any format"
Re: Electrodominance
"We tested it in Modern, and it should be fun and powerful but not oppressive. Some risks are worth taking."
Great to hear they are testing cards for Modern and actively considering Modern in the D&D process. I look forward to more examples of this in the future.
6.19% Grixis Control
5.84% Grixis Delver
4.81% UW Stoneblade
4.81% Jeskai Miracles
3.09% Death's Shadow
2.41% UR Wizards
Unfair decks using cantrips
3.78% Ad Naus
3.44% Sneak and Show
2.75% Reanimator
This shouldn't even be contested. Fair decks have always had more efficiency in Legacy with cantrips compared to combo and linear decks.
That says that there are more people playing fair decks (and perhaps they are stronger) but says nothing about how important the cantrips are to the power level of the deck (merely that it is correct to play them).
If you take UW Stoneblade for example and take all the cantrips out and replace them with business spells and lands, the deck is far stronger than Storm with no cantrips.
That's just my opinion of course, but I think you'll find it to be true with a small thought experiment:
* There are multiple marginally to fairly successful fair legacy decks with far less consistency than UW Stoneblade or Miracles
ex. Green sun's Zenith decks
ex. Death & taxes
* There are very few successful unfair decks in legacy that do not use cantrips (basically BR reanimator...which you could argue about faithless looting and entomb I guess)
TL;DR Replying to the statement "Cantrips are at least as impactful on the gameplan of unfair decks as they are on fair decks" with "there are a lot of fair decks in legacy that play cantrips" is not really engaging with the statement.
------------------------------------------
As to how that applies in Modern we can see the same thing - there are successful fair decks that run cantrips, but there would still be fair decks without cantrips. If you ban Opt, Serum Visions and Sleight (Banmania enthusiasts: I AM IN NO WAY SUGGESTING YOU SHOULD), UW Control could still be a deck. It was a deck when it didn't play any cantrips (though not an amazing one).
But Storm and Ad Nauseam (not that it is really a deck) are no longer decks without 1 mana cantrips.
So your original statement which was something to the effect of "Fair decks use cantrips to a greater effect than unfair decks" - I think that is wrong, and metagame shares really have nothing to do with it. It's simply the impact the cards have on the deck.
In the end consistency engines are more important to combo decks. At least, that's what I believe based on experience and such. YMMV.
Blue doesn't need Ponder/Preordain, it needs an early and powerful counterspell or a counterspell like card that allows you to stop key early plays. There is currently no good way to stop early plays in blue, not even remotely the like of Thoughtsieze, Inqusition, Bolt, Fatal Push, Path etc. Most of the latter cards aren't universal answers, but due to the nature of the format they're effective against most things most of the time so they become near universal.
You can't stop things resolving most of the time, and once they're resolved the traditional weakness of blue in permanently dealing with problems is even more magnified. Without a chance, and by chance I mean having a playset or two of good things to depend upon, not 7 permutations of Bolt (Counterspell) to slap a deck together and call it a day, stalling opponents becomes an uphill struggle.
Bounce has become weaker over time with the proliferation of ETB effects, Tuck effects are rare and overcosted, reworded counterspells that help circumvent Caverns are also expensive and rare, Mill is junk and steal effects cost too much and aren't viable. On the other hand the problems are more varied than ever.
It's telling that of the 9 most played blue cards in Modern, four are cantrips, two creatures, although Snapcaster is as much a consistency tool as a creature, two narrow sideboard cards (Ceremonious, Dispel) and Cryptic. More cantrips is the least of things blue needs. In fact it's helping all the other colors more than blue.
What are you going to Ponder into in Modern that's blue? Negate?
No, it's going to be non-blue answers or combo pieces, things that are already too good, even with current 'junky' cantrips. Opt, whom everyone thought was a pale shadow of the old cantrips demonstrated how busted it is to have "4 cards less" in your deck in modern and that players will play any such card no matter how "weak" it is relative to the old ones.
I think something that would be good for Modern would be a card that did what Mental Misstep was supposed to do, if they had designed it correctly. A free counter that can only counter 1 cmc spells would help, but it A) must not counter itself, and B) needs to require you to be playing the color blue. There are some ways to achieve this design, and it's the kind of card that would be completely innocuous in Standard.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Daze seems fine at this point. But I don't really know that I care about blue anymore. It's fine at the moment.
What Modern needs is a round of enemy colored commands I think more than anything. KC and Dromoka's made a pretty big splash in modern and standard respectively and the whole cycle was pretty cool in some way at least (though silumgar's was kind of a dud outside of EDH).
Just a few more powerhouse midrange spells that can provide some diversity.
Yeah I mean Ravnica is pretty good power wise for WOTC especially the second set.
I wanted Guild Commands and Ascendacies for this Return to Ravnica and we only got Simic.
Maybe we can get them for the final Ravnica Set.
I agree. U is more than good at this point. It needs no more help. Phoenix, Shadow, UW Control, Storm, (Jeskai) control proves this. We are getting to the point that unbans are not more relevant to be honest. Just new prints affecting Modern, that's what we need.
Well I think its cause any unban that would make a real difference is unlikely to occur. I still want more experimentation with counter, draw and wipes. But yeah I am certainly glad KCI is dead.
I don't know about other areas, but over here Modern feels so fast and aggressive. Thoughtseize feels like it's the worst card in my deck - not surprising that it's only 11 dollars in SCG right now for slightly played versions. ugh.. big mistake in buying. ><
Daze seems fine at this point. But I don't really know that I care about blue anymore. It's fine at the moment.
What Modern needs is a round of enemy colored commands I think more than anything. KC and Dromoka's made a pretty big splash in modern and standard respectively and the whole cycle was pretty cool in some way at least (though silumgar's was kind of a dud outside of EDH).
Agreed on the Daze suggestion. Would probably start feeling some legacy nostalgia if ever Daze would be legal here.
Yeah, most of the commands have been useful. They should make more of those.
I think something that would be good for Modern would be a card that did what Mental Misstep was supposed to do, if they had designed it correctly. A free counter that can only counter 1 cmc spells would help, but it A) must not counter itself, and B) needs to require you to be playing the color blue. There are some ways to achieve this design, and it's the kind of card that would be completely innocuous in Standard.
You're describing Disrupting Shoal. In a deck full of 1-2 cmc spells, this is exactly what Shoal does: counter Path, Push, Bolt, Terminate, Looting, Burning Inquiry, Goblin Lore, Search for Azcanta, Elves, Snapcaster, Baral, Manamorphose, Thing in the Ice ...
You have to play tons of blue cards to make it work, and the mistake people make is thinking those need to spread out across 1-4 cmc. But that's not what it's for. It's about stopping a T1 play on the draw and protecting the threat you just tapped out for. Other counters like Stubborn Denial, Spell Pierce, Mana Leak, Logic Knot pick up the slack later.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
New expansions have brought plenty of material to brew some new decks up (think of Electrodominance and Prime Speaker Vannifar), yet I have the impression that Arclight Phoenix (another recent addition) isn't just the flavor of the month but the best deck of the format.
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Who is truer: you who are, or you who are to be?
Currently sleeved: WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
The war on blue is a myth. See Teferi, Search, Opt, and Nexus. The war on control is a myth too. See Settle, Teferi, Search, and others. But the war on data? That is a very real platform that Wizards continues to push to this day, and I feel it receives far less attention than all the other unproven allegations.
Although I don't believe data restriction was a primary motive (that honor almost certainly goes to budget and staffing), it is very likely that a further data embargo was at the least a welcome byproduct if not an intentional contributing factor. It's just another way to limit our access to meaningful numbers to allegedly limit ability to solve a format.
But the war on data? That is a very real platform that Wizards continues to push to this day, and I feel it receives far less attention than all the other unproven allegations.
Although I don't believe data restriction was a primary motive (that honor almost certainly goes to budget and staffing), it is very likely that a further data embargo was at the least a welcome byproduct if not an intentional contributing factor. It's just another way to limit our access to meaningful numbers to allegedly limit ability to solve a format.
I have spent likely dozens of posts, and probably thousands of words making sure people are aware of how ridiculous and bad the data restrictions Wizards has in place are. It's not that people aren't talking about it, it's that those who aren't talking about it simply don't care.
The commentary about Tithe Taker just mentions that they considered whether it should be a Human because of Modern. However, there is a direct statement in the commentary about Electrodominance:
"...Can Modern handle that pressure? Most likely. Are you certain? We tested it in Modern, and it should be fun and powerful but not oppressive..."
Modern is too big for them to ignore, and i welcome this change of mindset with open arms!
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Modern: RBW Mardu Pyro X Eldrazi
Pauper: X Affinity G Stompy
Tested? Tested? They let Creeping Chill in which put Dredge over the top in Modern testing my ***. Anyone who cannot see how a free uncounterable 6 point life swing could be broken in a format where Faithless Looting is one of the top two cantrips in the format doesn't deserve their job.
Tested? Tested? They let Creeping Chill in which put Dredge over the top in Modern testing my ***. Anyone who cannot see how a free uncounterable 6 point life swing could be broken in a format where Faithless Looting is one of the top two cantrips in the format doesn't deserve their job.
Creeping Chill isn't that much stronger (it is stronger though) than Chancellor of the Dross or Providence especially in the context of standard, the later two saw 0 play. Although they printed Stitcher's Supplier for the same standard environment, so clearly wanted some form of graveyard deck or were at least ok with it. Something like Creeping Chill is only as good as the enabler, Chancellor of the Dross is a fine card in a Soulflayer deck, but it's an edge case, much as dredge is an edge case in modern, heck the reprinting of Narcomoeba makes dredge more likely in modern...
Tested? Tested? They let Creeping Chill in which put Dredge over the top in Modern testing my ***. Anyone who cannot see how a free uncounterable 6 point life swing could be broken in a format where Faithless Looting is one of the top two cantrips in the format doesn't deserve their job.
what your talking? 4 burn in top 16 as example or 2 whir in top 8, or 2 izzet in Top8 too...and you are scared about 1 dredge?
Ya, as much as I am also disgusted by Creeping Chill being a thing, I am not upset seeing a single copy of Dredge. Two copies of Phoenix isn't bad, but double Whir Prison is funny to me.
I mostly think it's a good sign that Burn is making a showing. We'll see if it continues.
It is not funny, because mox opal should be banned and not Kci. This shows they are wrong with the real problem. I will watch this whir decks and hope they don't becoming our new kci
With KCI gone, people are lightening up on Artifact hate, which is why we saw Whir doing so well. I doubt it will become a regular thing, as prison decks in Modern usually are hard pressed to lock out all the various ways of winning in this format, outside of Lantern, which I'm kind of surprised isn't what showed up. I guess the people at the tournament just weren't as keen to play such a drawn out and difficult deck.
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https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/play-design/m-files-ravnica-allegiance-monocolor-2019-01-25
The commentary about Tithe Taker just mentions that they considered whether it should be a Human because of Modern. However, there is a direct statement in the commentary about Electrodominance:
"...Can Modern handle that pressure? Most likely. Are you certain? We tested it in Modern, and it should be fun and powerful but not oppressive..."
Spirits
So glad you mentioned this article. Here are some other relevant quotes:
Re: Tithe Taker
"Noting that Modern has a strong Humans deck, we want to make sure nothing gets too oppressive or breaks in any format"
Re: Electrodominance
"We tested it in Modern, and it should be fun and powerful but not oppressive. Some risks are worth taking."
Great to hear they are testing cards for Modern and actively considering Modern in the D&D process. I look forward to more examples of this in the future.
That says that there are more people playing fair decks (and perhaps they are stronger) but says nothing about how important the cantrips are to the power level of the deck (merely that it is correct to play them).
If you take UW Stoneblade for example and take all the cantrips out and replace them with business spells and lands, the deck is far stronger than Storm with no cantrips.
That's just my opinion of course, but I think you'll find it to be true with a small thought experiment:
* There are multiple marginally to fairly successful fair legacy decks with far less consistency than UW Stoneblade or Miracles
ex. Green sun's Zenith decks
ex. Death & taxes
* There are very few successful unfair decks in legacy that do not use cantrips (basically BR reanimator...which you could argue about faithless looting and entomb I guess)
TL;DR Replying to the statement "Cantrips are at least as impactful on the gameplan of unfair decks as they are on fair decks" with "there are a lot of fair decks in legacy that play cantrips" is not really engaging with the statement.
------------------------------------------
As to how that applies in Modern we can see the same thing - there are successful fair decks that run cantrips, but there would still be fair decks without cantrips. If you ban Opt, Serum Visions and Sleight (Banmania enthusiasts: I AM IN NO WAY SUGGESTING YOU SHOULD), UW Control could still be a deck. It was a deck when it didn't play any cantrips (though not an amazing one).
But Storm and Ad Nauseam (not that it is really a deck) are no longer decks without 1 mana cantrips.
So your original statement which was something to the effect of "Fair decks use cantrips to a greater effect than unfair decks" - I think that is wrong, and metagame shares really have nothing to do with it. It's simply the impact the cards have on the deck.
In the end consistency engines are more important to combo decks. At least, that's what I believe based on experience and such. YMMV.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
You can't stop things resolving most of the time, and once they're resolved the traditional weakness of blue in permanently dealing with problems is even more magnified. Without a chance, and by chance I mean having a playset or two of good things to depend upon, not 7 permutations of Bolt (Counterspell) to slap a deck together and call it a day, stalling opponents becomes an uphill struggle.
Bounce has become weaker over time with the proliferation of ETB effects, Tuck effects are rare and overcosted, reworded counterspells that help circumvent Caverns are also expensive and rare, Mill is junk and steal effects cost too much and aren't viable. On the other hand the problems are more varied than ever.
It's telling that of the 9 most played blue cards in Modern, four are cantrips, two creatures, although Snapcaster is as much a consistency tool as a creature, two narrow sideboard cards (Ceremonious, Dispel) and Cryptic. More cantrips is the least of things blue needs. In fact it's helping all the other colors more than blue.
What are you going to Ponder into in Modern that's blue? Negate?
No, it's going to be non-blue answers or combo pieces, things that are already too good, even with current 'junky' cantrips. Opt, whom everyone thought was a pale shadow of the old cantrips demonstrated how busted it is to have "4 cards less" in your deck in modern and that players will play any such card no matter how "weak" it is relative to the old ones.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
What Modern needs is a round of enemy colored commands I think more than anything. KC and Dromoka's made a pretty big splash in modern and standard respectively and the whole cycle was pretty cool in some way at least (though silumgar's was kind of a dud outside of EDH).
Just a few more powerhouse midrange spells that can provide some diversity.
And a few unbans
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I wanted Guild Commands and Ascendacies for this Return to Ravnica and we only got Simic.
Maybe we can get them for the final Ravnica Set.
Well I think its cause any unban that would make a real difference is unlikely to occur. I still want more experimentation with counter, draw and wipes. But yeah I am certainly glad KCI is dead.
Agreed on the Daze suggestion. Would probably start feeling some legacy nostalgia if ever Daze would be legal here.
Yeah, most of the commands have been useful. They should make more of those.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
You're describing Disrupting Shoal. In a deck full of 1-2 cmc spells, this is exactly what Shoal does: counter Path, Push, Bolt, Terminate, Looting, Burning Inquiry, Goblin Lore, Search for Azcanta, Elves, Snapcaster, Baral, Manamorphose, Thing in the Ice ...
You have to play tons of blue cards to make it work, and the mistake people make is thinking those need to spread out across 1-4 cmc. But that's not what it's for. It's about stopping a T1 play on the draw and protecting the threat you just tapped out for. Other counters like Stubborn Denial, Spell Pierce, Mana Leak, Logic Knot pick up the slack later.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Currently sleeved:
WUR Copycat ft. Stoneforge Mystic
Here's the latest nonsense in Wizard's war on data:
https://mobile.twitter.com/magicprotour/status/1089361097860120576
Although I don't believe data restriction was a primary motive (that honor almost certainly goes to budget and staffing), it is very likely that a further data embargo was at the least a welcome byproduct if not an intentional contributing factor. It's just another way to limit our access to meaningful numbers to allegedly limit ability to solve a format.
I have spent likely dozens of posts, and probably thousands of words making sure people are aware of how ridiculous and bad the data restrictions Wizards has in place are. It's not that people aren't talking about it, it's that those who aren't talking about it simply don't care.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Phoenix top deck by win % at two GPs, KCI second
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678Modern is too big for them to ignore, and i welcome this change of mindset with open arms!
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/StarCityGamescom_Classic/2019-01-27_modern_Indianapolis_IN_US/1/
Dredge 1st
Azorius Control
Whir Prison
Izzet Phoenix
Izzet Phoenix
Burn
Amulet Titan
Whir Prison
Bant Spirits 9th
Elves
Ad Nauseam
Burn
Burn
Burn
Grixis Death's Shadow
Grixis Death's Shadow
Spirits
Creeping Chill isn't that much stronger (it is stronger though) than Chancellor of the Dross or Providence especially in the context of standard, the later two saw 0 play. Although they printed Stitcher's Supplier for the same standard environment, so clearly wanted some form of graveyard deck or were at least ok with it. Something like Creeping Chill is only as good as the enabler, Chancellor of the Dross is a fine card in a Soulflayer deck, but it's an edge case, much as dredge is an edge case in modern, heck the reprinting of Narcomoeba makes dredge more likely in modern...
I mostly think it's a good sign that Burn is making a showing. We'll see if it continues.
"Reveal a Dragon"