Which is highly being eliminated by the diversity reduction it is going to enduce. And diversity is the no. 1 priority in wizards books.
Even KCI is beggining to reduce the top 8 of every other decks at the moment.
Just ban KCI and everything is going to be fine again.
Twin doesn't inherently reduce diversity. They said that in the ban announcement because they thought Twin was the reason people weren't playing other blue decks, which has been thoroughly debunked since the ban. People weren't playing those other decks because they were bad, Twin had nothing to do with it. I always remind people, Affinity had a miserable Twin matchup and it was still the second or third best deck. Twin is not this gatekeeper that pushes out a huge swath of decks. If your deck is doing something objectively powerful, it will be good whether Twin exists or not. If your deck is underpowered jank, it will be bad whether Twin exists or not. This is all especially true if Twin comes back and is only a ~6% tier 1 deck, and not a 12% top-of-the-format deck. There is just no plausible way that a 6% deck is going to destroy Modern's diversity.
Yeah, another unfair combo deck helps magic to be more fair. Come on, this is bull...t. + 1 unfair deck is not - 1 unfair deck
You need to think one level deeper. It's not about what Twin itself is, it's about the effect is has on the format. Twin beats other unfair decks, and it gets beat by interactive fair decks. It's very obvious that putting Twin back into Modern makes the other non-interactive unfair decks worse, and it makes the interactive fair decks better.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
An infinite damage combo that is 2 cards, that happens at instant speed while disrupting? Its not 'fair' magic.
Twin has flash now?
Bruh, come on.
Turn 3 EOT - Pesterminte/Exarch, tap you down, Untap, Twin.
Bruh it’s not an instant speed combo... misrepresenting what twin was is everything twin advocates hate. I personally don’t have a problem with twin at all. Every card in modern just changes the met, some will argue for good and some for bad change is change.
Bruh, this conversation was really funny from both sides. And on top of it you both agree. I agree it should be unbanned, but this conversation is an example of why so many people don't want us to talk about twin anymore. It just looks like fighting for no reason.
There is just no plausible way that a 6% deck is going to destroy Modern's diversity.
its also implausible that a 6% deck would meaningfully 'rein in' the decks and play patterns modern critics openly scorn. many of those critics being twin proponents advertising it as some safety outlet akin to force of will in legacy.
its the vocal minorities fervently arguing the extremes that creates so much dissonance with the idea of a twin unban, leaving the moderates to be disregarded or unheard.
twin wouldnt 'fix' modern by 'policing' the degenerate, linear, or whatever the hell you wanna call it letting these classically 'fair' strategies narrow card choices to the point of making them much better. that WOULD require the deck to be able to reduce diversity to the point it could be classified as warping; making it arguably 'too good' depending on your definition.
the moderate view is that just as one more powerful deck floating around the soup at the top of the format, fair decks (which largely operate in a space of dealing with creatures) are slightly more likely to encounter a matchup that is more manageable. i say manageable because its not a guarantee or even heavily in their favor, but based on how the deck operated in the past the games are close with back and forth. which is an acceptable outcome in itself.
it also introduces more meta cycles, which still maintain the 'diversity' standard, where midrange and control decks look like good options because it can pair with other creature strategies answerable by more common, and importantly maindeckable, forms of interaction.
that said its still just one more deck that is historically known for its ability to play through resistance and win quickly and or out of nowhere. this is literally the defining quality of many/most modern decks at the moment. so any net benefit to the format would be small, and possible inconsequential or unnoticeable at all.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
twin did not only reduce diversity amongst blue decks, it was also reducing diversity across Modern overall.
Both proven false over actually looking at the top 8 data. Not sure why you repeat this.
If this was the case, the card would have been unbanned long time ago. Remember; Wizards has much more access to the data. Day 1 to Day 2 conversion rates, MODO metagame shares, mwp's. Also someone literally posted some scary day 2 Twin percentages not so long time ago.
I know you think Wizards is the devil here, but they are not. They may know something more than us.
LOL.
If you actually believe that, I envy you.
I wish I could give Wizards the benefit of the doubt, but not in this way.
If this was the case, the card would have been unbanned long time ago. Remember; Wizards has much more access to the data. Day 1 to Day 2 conversion rates, MODO metagame shares, mwp's. Also someone literally posted some scary day 2 Twin percentages not so long time ago.
I know you think Wizards is the devil here, but they are not. They may know something more than us.
Ok, let's take this one step at a time. George, if Twin was unbanned and it was completely unplayable now and saw no play, would it reduce the diversity in Modern?
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I take a breather and come back to over a full page of almost exclusively Twin-talk? At this point I honestly want it unbanned just so I don't have to go back three pages in this thread to find an original post.
I'm excited for tomorrow, I've been steeling myself for the expected KCI ban, but I'm still holding out that they actually do some thinking and use a scalpel with a Wellspring ban (looks silly on the banlist, but so does Summer Bloom). As for unbans, I personally think SFM is totally safe, and I'd enjoy letting Blue decks have the chance to have an A-grade cantrip for a change, but I'm pretty sure SFM is the choice I'd make if I were a betting person.
Do people think the KCI-crew will just slot into Amulet Titan? I've been play testing and watching some vids, and it really just seems much less consistent than KCI. I really appreciate watching Daryl Ayers on it, but it might just take me much longer to "learn" Amulet Titan than KCI did. I suppose that's what people are looking for in their fantasy metas, though; combo decks that they can disrupt with Path to Exile and which new players will never show up to tournaments with.
To me, Summer Bloom == Ichor Wellspring in terms of ban elegance. I think that was your suggestion all along, and personally its the favourite I've seen. Dont kill people's decks.
To be fair, Summer Bloom is kinda busted with karoo lands even without Amulet of Vigor. Sure, the Amulet makes it more broken, but Bloom still easily lets you hit 6 mana turn 3 with just lands without it.
but still unfair. I don't need explanations how more unfair helps fair. I see only turn 3 unfair is fine, now we have turn 4 unfair too... Yeah great
Since when was winning on turn 4 not allowed for the format? Don't they explicitly not want wins before turn 4, but 4+ is A-OK, regardless of type?
since twin. Time to see reality
Curious, when did you start playing Modern?
18 years ago. And twin is with pod my baddest experience on so long time of magic. Even eldrazi winter was less frustrating to me
Modern...didnt exist 18 years ago.
However if Eldrazi Winter was less frustrating (meaning you enjoyed it MORE when you only had 2 or 3 competitive options) well, I'm going to guess you dont like Remand.
Since when was winning on turn 4 not allowed for the format? Don't they explicitly not want wins before turn 4, but 4+ is A-OK, regardless of type?
since twin. Time to see reality
Curious, when did you start playing Modern?
18 years ago. And twin is with pod my baddest experience on so long time of magic. Even eldrazi winter was less frustrating to me
Modern...didnt exist 18 years ago.
However if Eldrazi Winter was less frustrating (meaning you enjoyed it MORE when you only had 2 or 3 competitive options) well, I'm going to guess you dont like Remand.
what you talking about? I love magic since pod and twin goes away. One of The main reason of modern success... Best time since 18 years of magic
If this was the case, the card would have been unbanned long time ago. Remember; Wizards has much more access to the data. Day 1 to Day 2 conversion rates, MODO metagame shares, mwp's. Also someone literally posted some scary day 2 Twin percentages not so long time ago.
I know you think Wizards is the devil here, but they are not. They may know something more than us.
Ok, let's take this one step at a time. George, if Twin was unbanned and it was completely unplayable now and saw no play, would it reduce the diversity in Modern?
I mean, you can ask this question, but it is a completely incorrect question to ask. There is absolutely no reason why Twin would be unplayable, since UR control/combo decks are currently still completely viable. A combo that is most powerful than any other existing combo in these colors is, in no way, potentially unplayable. Hell, people even produce results with UR Kiki. You can start a hypothesis, but don't start it with a completely false question.
18 years ago. And twin is with pod my baddest experience on so long time of magic. Even eldrazi winter was less frustrating to me
Modern...didnt exist 18 years ago.
However if Eldrazi Winter was less frustrating (meaning you enjoyed it MORE when you only had 2 or 3 competitive options) well, I'm going to guess you dont like Remand.
what you talking about? I love magic since pod and twin goes away. One of The main reason of modern success... Best time since 18 years of magic
Modern only exists since 2011.
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Modern:BGRJund MidrangeBGR DUEL COMMANDER:GTitania, Protector of ArgothG + WRTajic, Legion's EdgeWR cEDH:GWCaptain SisayGW + BUGTasigur, the Golden FangBUG
Doing the overnight shift feedings for the newborn means I won't get to see the results till around noon PST. Looking forward to never having to play against KCI, brewing terrible decks with Stoneforge after selling my extra copies for exorbitant markup, and complaining that Twin is still unjustly banned. See you all after the announcement!
Doing the overnight shift feedings for the newborn means I won't get to see the results till around noon PST. Looking forward to never having to play against KCI, brewing terrible decks with Stoneforge after selling my extra copies for exorbitant markup, and complaining that Twin is still unjustly banned. See you all after the announcement!
Best of luck with it.
I have a feeling that KCI is going to cop it and SFM is coming back. January is usually the B and R where things change. The only thing I can say with any certainty is that there is a tornado of rage about to hit the corners of the internet where mtg players post in about 4 hours.
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Modern: UR Gifts Storm URB Grixis Death's Shadow R12 Bolt
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
Oh my. I was gone for a day, and we have WWIII of twin talk.
Anyway, excited to see the ban / unban announcements. SFM and maybe a Twin unban would be nice... but I would not be angry if "no changes". I also can't complain about KCI, since there's no KCI here. In our place faithless looting decks are the kings, and I have no problem with them.
I have a feeling that KCI is going to cop it and SFM is coming back. January is usually the B and R where things change. The only thing I can say with any certainty is that there is a tornado of rage about to hit the corners of the internet where mtg players post in about 4 hours.
I'd agree on KCI and probably on SFM, except if we are going back to Phyrexia then; the mana won't return, infect won't return, metalcraft might, but they have probably played in that space enough, proliferate they tried to bring back and couldn't, living weapon is interesting and has plenty of space, but can it be brought back safely with SFM in the format? I suspect SFM means that living weapon never comes back, or will never be stronger than Batterskull...
I could see punishing fire coming with stone forge as an “answer” the same way bloodbraid and jace came at the same time.
All of the recent attempts at tron hate can stop grove - alpine moon blood sun field of ruin - if punishing fire is a problem. Meanwhile it’s a way to knock off stoneforge and then the germ repeatedly later in. They pay eight to bounce and replay, you pay five or six to recycle punishing fires and kill it.
Plus we’re at a point where maindeck grave hate is legitimately correct, which is another angle on punishing fire.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I have a feeling that KCI is going to cop it and SFM is coming back. January is usually the B and R where things change. The only thing I can say with any certainty is that there is a tornado of rage about to hit the corners of the internet where mtg players post in about 4 hours.
I'd agree on KCI and probably on SFM, except if we are going back to Phyrexia then; the mana won't return, infect won't return, metalcraft might, but they have probably played in that space enough, proliferate they tried to bring back and couldn't, living weapon is interesting and has plenty of space, but can it be brought back safely with SFM in the format? I suspect SFM means that living weapon never comes back, or will never be stronger than Batterskull...
I don't think we'd necessarily see Living Weapon in a return to New Phyrexia. It wasn't exactly the splashiest of designs, and I honestly think Infect is the pinnacle of Phyrexia-flavor, closely followed by Proliferate, but it works best when paired with Infect. I'm not wholly convinced we'll go straight to NP anyways; I have a feeling we'll get a new plane, and maybe a Theros return to recruit Elspeth, as she is the other main anti-Phyrexia walker we have, after Karn.
I'm interested in knowing where WotC sits on this announcement. Surely they will have put a lot of consideration into whatever they reveal in a couple of hours.
Most of all, I'd like to have been a fly on the wall for whatever discussions have happened regarding the community response (ban kci blah blah) and how they reached their conclusions for the b&r changes (whatever they might be)
It'd be a really interesting bit of info to understand how they ultimately inform those decisions.
If they consult the pro scene at all (which I baselessly suspect might be the case?) then I have a feeling KCI might eat the bin.
Everything else though, totally fine. Unbans definitely on the table but it's anyone's guess honestly. They've surprised us before.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
You need to think one level deeper. It's not about what Twin itself is, it's about the effect is has on the format. Twin beats other unfair decks, and it gets beat by interactive fair decks. It's very obvious that putting Twin back into Modern makes the other non-interactive unfair decks worse, and it makes the interactive fair decks better.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Bruh, this conversation was really funny from both sides. And on top of it you both agree. I agree it should be unbanned, but this conversation is an example of why so many people don't want us to talk about twin anymore. It just looks like fighting for no reason.
its also implausible that a 6% deck would meaningfully 'rein in' the decks and play patterns modern critics openly scorn. many of those critics being twin proponents advertising it as some safety outlet akin to force of will in legacy.
its the vocal minorities fervently arguing the extremes that creates so much dissonance with the idea of a twin unban, leaving the moderates to be disregarded or unheard.
twin wouldnt 'fix' modern by 'policing' the degenerate, linear, or whatever the hell you wanna call it letting these classically 'fair' strategies narrow card choices to the point of making them much better. that WOULD require the deck to be able to reduce diversity to the point it could be classified as warping; making it arguably 'too good' depending on your definition.
the moderate view is that just as one more powerful deck floating around the soup at the top of the format, fair decks (which largely operate in a space of dealing with creatures) are slightly more likely to encounter a matchup that is more manageable. i say manageable because its not a guarantee or even heavily in their favor, but based on how the deck operated in the past the games are close with back and forth. which is an acceptable outcome in itself.
it also introduces more meta cycles, which still maintain the 'diversity' standard, where midrange and control decks look like good options because it can pair with other creature strategies answerable by more common, and importantly maindeckable, forms of interaction.
that said its still just one more deck that is historically known for its ability to play through resistance and win quickly and or out of nowhere. this is literally the defining quality of many/most modern decks at the moment. so any net benefit to the format would be small, and possible inconsequential or unnoticeable at all.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Both proven false over actually looking at the top 8 data. Not sure why you repeat this.
Spirits
LOL.
If you actually believe that, I envy you.
I wish I could give Wizards the benefit of the doubt, but not in this way.
Spirits
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I'm excited for tomorrow, I've been steeling myself for the expected KCI ban, but I'm still holding out that they actually do some thinking and use a scalpel with a Wellspring ban (looks silly on the banlist, but so does Summer Bloom). As for unbans, I personally think SFM is totally safe, and I'd enjoy letting Blue decks have the chance to have an A-grade cantrip for a change, but I'm pretty sure SFM is the choice I'd make if I were a betting person.
Do people think the KCI-crew will just slot into Amulet Titan? I've been play testing and watching some vids, and it really just seems much less consistent than KCI. I really appreciate watching Daryl Ayers on it, but it might just take me much longer to "learn" Amulet Titan than KCI did. I suppose that's what people are looking for in their fantasy metas, though; combo decks that they can disrupt with Path to Exile and which new players will never show up to tournaments with.
Spirits
Modern...didnt exist 18 years ago.
However if Eldrazi Winter was less frustrating (meaning you enjoyed it MORE when you only had 2 or 3 competitive options) well, I'm going to guess you dont like Remand.
Spirits
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
DUEL COMMANDER: GTitania, Protector of ArgothG + WRTajic, Legion's EdgeWR
cEDH: GWCaptain SisayGW + BUGTasigur, the Golden FangBUG
Since we're back on Twin talk again maybe we could use a change again.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
We have about 6 hours if I recall correctly
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Best of luck with it.
I have a feeling that KCI is going to cop it and SFM is coming back. January is usually the B and R where things change. The only thing I can say with any certainty is that there is a tornado of rage about to hit the corners of the internet where mtg players post in about 4 hours.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
Anyway, excited to see the ban / unban announcements. SFM and maybe a Twin unban would be nice... but I would not be angry if "no changes". I also can't complain about KCI, since there's no KCI here. In our place faithless looting decks are the kings, and I have no problem with them.
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I'd agree on KCI and probably on SFM, except if we are going back to Phyrexia then; the mana won't return, infect won't return, metalcraft might, but they have probably played in that space enough, proliferate they tried to bring back and couldn't, living weapon is interesting and has plenty of space, but can it be brought back safely with SFM in the format? I suspect SFM means that living weapon never comes back, or will never be stronger than Batterskull...
What should happen: unban twin and SFM. Ban nothing.
What will happen: I really have no idea, they could do anything. My wild guess is unban SFM and ban KCI.
All of the recent attempts at tron hate can stop grove - alpine moon blood sun field of ruin - if punishing fire is a problem. Meanwhile it’s a way to knock off stoneforge and then the germ repeatedly later in. They pay eight to bounce and replay, you pay five or six to recycle punishing fires and kill it.
Plus we’re at a point where maindeck grave hate is legitimately correct, which is another angle on punishing fire.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I don't think we'd necessarily see Living Weapon in a return to New Phyrexia. It wasn't exactly the splashiest of designs, and I honestly think Infect is the pinnacle of Phyrexia-flavor, closely followed by Proliferate, but it works best when paired with Infect. I'm not wholly convinced we'll go straight to NP anyways; I have a feeling we'll get a new plane, and maybe a Theros return to recruit Elspeth, as she is the other main anti-Phyrexia walker we have, after Karn.
Most of all, I'd like to have been a fly on the wall for whatever discussions have happened regarding the community response (ban kci blah blah) and how they reached their conclusions for the b&r changes (whatever they might be)
It'd be a really interesting bit of info to understand how they ultimately inform those decisions.
If they consult the pro scene at all (which I baselessly suspect might be the case?) then I have a feeling KCI might eat the bin.
Everything else though, totally fine. Unbans definitely on the table but it's anyone's guess honestly. They've surprised us before.
KCI got the axe and that's just it