I hate the "brewer's paradise" argument. It will be a brew-for-all until the next optimal combinations of cards are found. There's no such paradise in existence in any card game or format. There are only formats and games with so little audience that nobody has put forth the time and effort to figure out what is the best.
I think this would make the format very interesting and a brewers paradise. It would hit so many of the most played and most complained about archetypes:
. KCI
. Phoenix
. Tron
. Dredge
. Hollow One
. Amulet Titan
. Scales Affinity
We were doing so well for a few pages. Now it's back to the unjustifiable ban claims. This post is particularly troubling because it doesn't even attempt to support a ban case with anything resembling Wizards' B&R rationale. It just asserts that the bans would make the format "more interesting" and a "brewer's paradise" by some unspecified subjective standard. Never mind that Modern already has the most viable top-tier decks of any format. Never mind that you don't make any case about how arbitrarily targeting a dozen top decks makes the format "more interesting."
Bans should be, and historically are, a last resort for broken metagames that have failed to self-regulate. Are you or other ban proponents making a case that these cards are doing that? If so, let's see the GP, PT. and MTGO numbers, I.e. the datapoints that actually inform ban decisions. If people aren't willing to make ban claims at this level of evidence and analysis, we should not give any credibility to those making the claims. Doubly so if the arguments in favor of a ban are in the "brewer's paradise" category. You know how else we can foster a brewer's paradise? Banning all powerful top-tier decks to open up the format in the classic race to the bottom ban problem. If that's the justification for a ban, it's hard to take that claim seriously.
Modern is a format so wide that literally 50+ decks have the potential to be competitively viable, but let's ban out a dozen decks and alienate thousands of players so we can have a "brewer's paradise"? Thanks, but no thanks.
Saying Modern isn't a brewer's paradise (or that it hasn't been for nearly the entirety of its existence) is an insult to the format.
I have been on here for 6 years now and it's funny to see that still nothing has changed in this thread.
The problem with ban speculation isn't isolated or unique to this thread. It's the same problem perpetuated by pro articles, the Twitter sound bite storm, Twitch chat, Reddit, and continued Wizards opaqueness around ban decisions. As long as those echo chambers continue, and as long as there aren't significant shifts in how we talk about issues like bans, this won't change anytime soon.
The thing is, Modern is a brewers paradise already, people just dont want to actually do it.
Grindfather? Lantern? Heck, KCI was essentially a brew as of January this year no?
Scaled Affinity? Same thing, its a growth of Green Scaled decks from last year.
If people want to see the 'brewers paradise' you have to get out of your local, and get onto MTGO. I see EVERYTHING from week to week to week, its different decks. Do the big hitter's show up a lot? Of course! Do fringe decks show up? You know it, every week.
From Junk, to BW Tokens, to Jund, to Red to LITERALLY anything and everything that is Modern, I've played against it this year.
It's been said but I'll say again the stoneforge and GSZ bannings both continue to look absolutely ridiculous with the state of the format for the last few years.
The pod banning is even potentially in question, even with Felidar Guardian. there's no guarantee that you'll survive long enough to pod a kitchen finks at this point in the format. I was pretty well on the bandwagon with Pod never seeing the light of day again but I'm not even sure of that anymore.
id take force of will over counterspell in modern any day, and twice on sunday. if the intention is to combat decks streamlined to be fast and their most powerful nut draws then you need to be hitting their turn 1-2 setup plays. a 2 cmc spell with UU casting cost isnt very well suited to do that.
a lot of the complaints about modern are typically centered on there being so many 'game 1' decks. its just phrased with stuff like 'linear'. these decks play the way they do, with a heavy emphasis on optimal sequencing of their opening hand and draws, because there isnt any fear of reprisal. no counterplay that they have to respect.
having decks that can snap off a turn 1 opal, vial, lootings, etc. suddenly they have to evaluate if their hand is functional without them, instead of how it currently is where they just know it will happen as planned.
also FoW is good against that type of stuff, but quite poor against everything else. the same cant be said for counterspell.
Unlike with Counterspell, I struggle to envision a Standard format where this card is fair and balanced. Moreover, I struggle to imagine Wizards assessing this card in any Standard and believing it's a safe design. I also think Wizards views Legacy as a format for stuff like FoW, Wasteland, Brainstorm, etc., and won't port those cards into either Modern or Standard any time soon. All three of these reasons, at least one of which is a legitimate barrier, will prevent FoW from coming to Modern. The card is just too good in any Standard format where blue is at least remotely viable. The only format where I could see FoW existing is a format where blue was deliberately stunted around FoW. But if the best example of that is the current Teferi-driven format, which still has Search, Settle, Sabotage, Niv, and a half dozen other powerful enablers, it seems more likely that any diverse (i.e. well-designed) Standard format is going to lead to a scenario where FoW is way too strong.
I could definitely see a FoW tribute that works better in Modern than in Standard. Something like:
Forcing Will3UU Instant
If you control an island, you may pay 1 life, exile a blue card from your hand, and exile a land from your graveyard rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
Counter target spell.
This kind of templating (tweak numbers if needed) could exist in certain Standards. Even if you think this particular version would be too easily broken by things like Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse, we could still probably figure out a way to get a FoW through Standard and into Modern with only a little bit of conversation. Revolt FoW is another option.
This is probably crazy wishful thinking.. how about they recreate the standard environment from years ago when FoW was Standard legal? Make functional reprints of many cards from Alliance. So they can reprint FoW today.
Pod thrived in an environment where Delver and Burn were powered by TC. The deck stopped aggressive elements in their tracks and would still do so now which is unfortunate because then it also out-values most things that are not 100% focused on aggression. It also gets to play the best removal, disruption and sideboard cards that the format has to offer as the cherry on the cake.
Unbanning it would be another Golgari Grave-Troll fiasco by being quickly banned again. The reason for the banning is still in effect and since WotC doesn't plan on making creatures bad again that will pretty much always be so. Cards like Collected Company and Eldritch Evolution are clear signs that WotC wants to support that style of deck but not with Pod itself.
If your goal is to ban cards to create a brewers paradise why stop at those two? Ban Stirrings, Looting, Aether Vial, Serum Vision, Tarmogoyf, and Lightning Bolt. Then we can get some real shake up going.
If goyf get's banned. I could replace the goyfs in my ponza with similarly strong creatures like Nullhide Ferox, Thurn, or more dragons. Just have to pray that the Hollow One decks decrease, because my purpose for adding goyf there is to help stall the H1 decks in their early attacks.
Some BGx decks would collapse if goyf is suddenly gone. There is just no replacement for him in those decks.
Unbanning it would be another Golgari Grave-Troll fiasco by being quickly banned again.
I hate Dredge as much as the next person, but let's not pretend GGT was doing anything broken or busted or banworthy. It was unbanned in January of 2015 and promptly did nothing for more than a year. Shadows over Innistrad brought Insolent Neonate and Prized Amalgam in April of 2016 and then Kaladesh tore the deck to pieces in September of 2016 with Cathartic Reunion. It was then banned the following January 2017.
I mean, beyond Dredge just being a dumb mechanic that probably shouldn't exist, the deck was still a random, innocuous Tier 2 pile until it got two new busted enablers and a powerful new payoff.
It was not a fiasco, it was not a problem with GGT, it was Wizards printing new things to break a mechanic that shouldn't exist, and for whatever reason, they felt it was the right reason to re-ban the card that did nothing for a year and a half instead of examine the real problems.
Anyway, I know I said I would stay away from 2 Card combo's but RUG Scrapeshift is FUN, and gives me that Twin like feel, I apologize to my Jund opponent you deserved better than those back to back Top Deck Scapeshifts...
People know me as someone who has advocated unbanning Stoneforge Mystic, Preordain, and Green Sun's Zenith for quite a long time now. But I can actually understand the side of those who would rather have a banning of Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting instead. The format is getting stale. Nobody that wins Modern matches consistently runs anything outside of the Ancient Stirrings/Faithless Looting/Noble Hierarch realm. Sure, another deck may come out. But it will use one of these 3 busted cards that are all BETTER than Stoneforge Mystic, Preordain, and Green Sun's Zenith.
The problem that some people don't realize with the banning of Deathrite Shaman is that Noble Hierarch becomes the best mana dork now. Noble Hierarch was far from busted before, but with all of the bannings that have happened, even the little Human that could has earned its place in the top 5 cards in Modern, if not Top 3. Sure, Deathrite Shaman is busted. I will not advocate an unban right now.
There is a Zoo player at my LGS that believes that Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting will both be banned to "fix" the format. I personally still see 3 unbans at least that could maybe not fix...but help the format at least. You have to actively give people a reason to not play Ancient Stirrings, Faithless Looting, or Noble Hierarch. I think people have finally realized how strong some of these cards are, including how strong Manamorphose is.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I Disagree. First off, I don't think Noble being the almost(will get on that later) best mana dork is a problem, since it's not busted. DRS was a problem, not because it was the best mana dork, but because it is busted. Don't also forget that in decks that play Red or Black, Birds is strictly better than Noble. Don't forget that in Ponza, Arbor Elf is better. Don't forget that in Elfs, Llanowar Elves is better, as exemplified by the last GP,as is Elves of Deep Shadow. Don't forget that in Abzan Company, Birds of Paradise is also better than Noble Hierarch. Don't also forget that Noble Hierach is not good enough to be played into Jund Midrange, as was deathtite Shaman.
Now, think that all or most of those decks would either just replace all of their mana dorks with deathtite Shaman or add a deathtite Shaman, even if the don't usually play a mana dork at all.
The problem with Hierarch if tried to use in Ponza is because it does not produce R. If there would be a hierarch that produced red.. would be saving up money and buy one every month until I have a playset. Deathrite Shaman is not competitive, it is broken. No reason that a card banned in Legacy should be legal in Modern.
I would quit modern if any of Gemini's stuff came true. You ban Goyf then I absolutely don't find any deck safe to invest.
The format is a little stale, it's Stirrings, loot, noble or bust. I don't think you can just ban those cards either, that would be so disastrous in modern.
At the same time, who would seriously ever pick up Izzet Phoenix when you could just play Splinter Twin? I sure as hell wouldn't.
We need some serious shake up unbans. If they unban just SFM that will be such a joke. Unless---SFM gives Azorious such a quick clock it runs the aggro decks out of town?
Dredge is still a stupid mechanic that will ALWAYS be a risk and I wouldn't mourn the death of the deck dying off, tier 1 or not.
That being said, a few years ago---thoughtseize, lightning bolt, Goyf and Snapcaster were the face of modern. It transitioned into Loot, Stirrings and Noble. It could just be a phase.
I saw your name in the practice rooms a few times yesterday, Galerion. I had a half day at work so I was able to just get some practice games in.
I used to invest into like every deck as well. I'm pretty much accepting that I own every GBx staple and Shadow. I have a decent amount of the URx staples, too. But I mean, I have a case and a half of GBx cards to pretty much playing anything that emerges unless it's using something obscure. I have Tron, just because it's nice to own and doesn't intersect with other stuff.
I would like to play Humans, but I have to be more responsible with my money nowadays and shouldn't just blow 1,500 dollars. Playing 4 different decks at once doesn't seem like good practice, either.
I had a lot of pieces into Phoenix so I thought, "why not?"
Owning the URx and GBx stuff really helps out. If you own all the shock lands/fetches and those you're pretty set. It's only when Tribal decks or combo decks emerge that I feel priced out. The Phoenix deck only required Arclight, Thing in the Ice, and the Manamorphose.
I'm pretty much just keeping my staples though, selling off staples has just hurt way more than helped. I sold off the UW Control pieces like 2x Teferi, 1x Jace, 1x Cryptic (4 seems like too much in modern nowadays) because I know I won't be going back to a super slow deck like that again. I still decided to keep things like Clique, 3x Jaces, etc because you never know.
Yesterday? Yeah that was the The Rock day. I must admit it felt good playing it again and the new tools like Assassin's Trophy and Tireless Tracker did tons of work. I was impressed.
But it also made me realize that I personally don't want to stick with a non-blue deck anymore. Little anecdote.
Yesterday I kept a decent BG hand and played turn 1 Inquistion of Kozilek and I see a hand of Faithless Looting, Night's Whisper, Through the Breach and lands so I was up against Goryo's Vengeance and I take the Looting away. On turn 2 I fire off another Inquistion and take Night's Whisper away. On turn 3 I play a Dark Confidant and after that nothing interesting happens until he has 5 lands in play. He obviously plays Through the Breach and put's Worldspine Wurm into play. I have the Assassins's Trohpy ready to avoid taking 15 from the wurm but he still gets the 3 5/5 Wurm tokens with Trample. What happens? With the Confidant trigger I reveal my single copy of Maelstrom Pulse, kill the tokens with it and win the game from there. My opponent wrote me "topdeck of the year" and despite me just answering with "yeah that's what the deck does" he was absolutely right.
The limitations of the deck were obvious in this game. Despite me having a decent hand with two discard spells, a Confidant and removal I could have easily lost that game. Inquisition is fine but its limitation of 3 CMC or less means I could not take his Breach away and the deck cannot interact any other way with that card.
Things like planeswalkers, permanents with ETB or LTB abilities and instants and sorceries all need to be interacted with on the stack. Otherwise the opponent will gain value out of them or outright win the game. With something like Stubborn Denial in my hand I would have had that game 100% on lock instead of having to get so incredibly lucky.
I still don't know if I want to stick with GDS but if I would have to choose between it and the BG/x decks my choice is now pretty clear.
Not to be that guy who always jumps in to defend BGx, but maybe I’m just actually that guy who always jumps in to defend BGx.
First of all, I’m a huge fan of Grixis/4c Shadow. The deck is the real deal and I’d happily agree with the consensus that it’s the most well-positioned Thoughtseize deck in the format right now.
That said, your anecdote doesn’t really serve as a condemnation of BGx’s power IMO. You had a solid hand, sure, but so did your opponent! A great many decks in the format would easily have been in for an early death, assuming some decent finds off Looting and Whisper. You also lacked a clock, and most times, if an early progression of discard into Bob isn’t setting your opponent back then finding you a clock, it’s setting your opponent back then finding you answers, which is what happened here. Finally, Shadow could indeed have had that game on lock more readily, but remember that Shadow thrives against combo decks—those Stubbs look a lot worse when the opponent is playing one of the format’s Aether Vial decks.
Again, I agree that Shadow is arguably the best place to be right now if you want to interact, especially if your heart’s not in the idea of BGx and/or you’re feeling the allure of what U brings to the table. But this notion that BGx is a far-distant second that just doesn’t have what it takes to rumble in Modern (not that you’ve said this, but it’s been implied elsewhere in this thread)...man, I just don’t see that at all. Every opposing matchup is within reason for a well-tuned Jund or Golgari deck now that Trophy has helped close the gap against big mana.
On the topic of the relative difficulty of the format’s most popular decks, the author’s personal ratings are fairly reasonable IMO. Personally, I’ve hopped decks an embarrassing number of times, having owned GB Elves, UBw Mill, Norin Sisters, Living End, D&T, Humans, UW Control, Ad Nauseam, Taking Turns, and Abzan/Golgari. For me, the linear aggro or combo decks were by far easier to pilot optimally than the interactive decks like D&T, BGx, and UWC (which I played during the pre-Jace meta when Shadow was king and the UWC decks were doing a lot of tapping out for Seas, Gideons, and Verdicts). I say this in full acknowledgment that I’ve never extensively played some of the more complex combo decks like Amulet Titan; nevertheless, my experience has been that linearity correlates with more easily obtained proficiency, on the whole.
Anyone can cast a Thoughtseize, a JtMS, or a Leonin Arbiter, but navigating your way to consistently strong results on the backs of those cards in a format as broad as this one is a very different story!
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Lol a Goryo's Vengeance player complaining. Maybe he/she should play a better deck. The only time I see that deck win is every once in a while on Hoogland's stream. I think I have a 100% win rate vs it, it just isnt good
Modern is a format so wide that literally 50+ decks have the potential to be competitively viable, but let's ban out a dozen decks and alienate thousands of players so we can have a "brewer's paradise"? Thanks, but no thanks.
Saying Modern isn't a brewer's paradise (or that it hasn't been for nearly the entirety of its existence) is an insult to the format.
Yes but what percentage of the meta does each archtype occupy. I argue the meta is far too tilted towards Aggro/Tempo. WOTC does its best to cripple and keep Combo, Control and Big Mana down...Midrange was collateral damage but Aggro when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?
This, arguably, is 'the meta' a any given time, how one breaks it down is up to them. So I dont know, is it REALLY too much Aggro? Thats up to each person I suppose.
Control
U/W
Jeskai
Midrange
Grixis Death’s Shadow
Jund
Abzan
'Fish' Tribal
Spirits
Humans
Aggro
Dredge
Hollow One
UR Phoenix
Hardened Scales
Affinity
Burn
Modern is a format so wide that literally 50+ decks have the potential to be competitively viable, but let's ban out a dozen decks and alienate thousands of players so we can have a "brewer's paradise"? Thanks, but no thanks.
Saying Modern isn't a brewer's paradise (or that it hasn't been for nearly the entirety of its existence) is an insult to the format.
Yes but what percentage of the meta does each archtype occupy. I argue the meta is far too tilted towards Aggro/Tempo. WOTC does its best to cripple and keep Combo, Control and Big Mana down...Midrange was collateral damage but Aggro when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?
Settle the Wreckage, a Standard legal card that is a mainstay in Standard top-tier non-aggro strategies. Incidentally, it also sees play in Modern, a testament to just how good the card is.
I am baffled by FCG's allegation that the format is becoming stale. As cfp said, there are probably fifty decks that can win events from week to week. Yes, some are Hierarch/Looting/Stirrings decks. But why is that a problem? Legacy decks are largely BrainStorm/Tomb/Depths decks and no one cares about that. Standard also has pillars like Teferi, Tyrant, and History of Benalia. Pillars aren't a problem. Pillars are inevitable. Especially in non-rotating formats. If anything, this is just a misapplication of the Twin ban precedent, or the DRS precedent, where a single pillar had a significant metagame share that allegedly stifled diversity. None of Modern's current pillars actually do that, as the format is the most diverse it has probably ever been.
I don't understand how anyone could look at the last 12 months of results and call for a ban. Even the last 3 months. There are too many viable decks, and too much diversity within the so-called pillars. Who cares if Hierarch is a pillar when it enables radically different decks in Infect, Humans, Bant Spirits, and Company strategies? That's not remotely comparable to DRS empowering 22% BGx decks alone.
Stop calling for bans without an evidence-based banning case. The shakeup/brewer's paradise/stale format argument for a ban is neither defensible nor even real. Wizards has banned nothing in Modern since early 2017. If you are calling for bans like FCG, Gemini, and others are, at least take the time to compare the current Modern period to similar no-ban periods in the last two years. If you can't find significant diversity differences, you have no case for a ban. Ban mania remains the single biggest discussion killer in this format that prevents us from having meaningful discussions about more important topics.
Modern is a format so wide that literally 50+ decks have the potential to be competitively viable, but let's ban out a dozen decks and alienate thousands of players so we can have a "brewer's paradise"? Thanks, but no thanks.
Saying Modern isn't a brewer's paradise (or that it hasn't been for nearly the entirety of its existence) is an insult to the format.
Yes but what percentage of the meta does each archtype occupy. I argue the meta is far too tilted towards Aggro/Tempo. WOTC does its best to cripple and keep Combo, Control and Big Mana down...Midrange was collateral damage but Aggro when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?
I don't understand how anyone could look at the last 12 months of results and call for a ban.
It does not see that much Modern play come on now. Its too slow. Its Marginal Play at best and does not compare. Supreme Verdict still sees more play.
And WOTC printed a hoser to the best 4 CMC boardwipe in ages. So I am not quite buying your argument that WOTC is out to help Control.
Also @idSurge you didn't disapprove my point. I said what percentage of the meta does each archtype take, not how many decks each archtype have that are viable.
I mean come on how much Lantern play is there really? Besides even on your list, 8 of 19 decks are Aggro Family Decks. 42% of the meta is Aggro.
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Correct.
Spirits
We were doing so well for a few pages. Now it's back to the unjustifiable ban claims. This post is particularly troubling because it doesn't even attempt to support a ban case with anything resembling Wizards' B&R rationale. It just asserts that the bans would make the format "more interesting" and a "brewer's paradise" by some unspecified subjective standard. Never mind that Modern already has the most viable top-tier decks of any format. Never mind that you don't make any case about how arbitrarily targeting a dozen top decks makes the format "more interesting."
Bans should be, and historically are, a last resort for broken metagames that have failed to self-regulate. Are you or other ban proponents making a case that these cards are doing that? If so, let's see the GP, PT. and MTGO numbers, I.e. the datapoints that actually inform ban decisions. If people aren't willing to make ban claims at this level of evidence and analysis, we should not give any credibility to those making the claims. Doubly so if the arguments in favor of a ban are in the "brewer's paradise" category. You know how else we can foster a brewer's paradise? Banning all powerful top-tier decks to open up the format in the classic race to the bottom ban problem. If that's the justification for a ban, it's hard to take that claim seriously.
Saying Modern isn't a brewer's paradise (or that it hasn't been for nearly the entirety of its existence) is an insult to the format.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The problem with ban speculation isn't isolated or unique to this thread. It's the same problem perpetuated by pro articles, the Twitter sound bite storm, Twitch chat, Reddit, and continued Wizards opaqueness around ban decisions. As long as those echo chambers continue, and as long as there aren't significant shifts in how we talk about issues like bans, this won't change anytime soon.
Grindfather? Lantern? Heck, KCI was essentially a brew as of January this year no?
Scaled Affinity? Same thing, its a growth of Green Scaled decks from last year.
If people want to see the 'brewers paradise' you have to get out of your local, and get onto MTGO. I see EVERYTHING from week to week to week, its different decks. Do the big hitter's show up a lot? Of course! Do fringe decks show up? You know it, every week.
From Junk, to BW Tokens, to Jund, to Red to LITERALLY anything and everything that is Modern, I've played against it this year.
Spirits
The pod banning is even potentially in question, even with Felidar Guardian. there's no guarantee that you'll survive long enough to pod a kitchen finks at this point in the format. I was pretty well on the bandwagon with Pod never seeing the light of day again but I'm not even sure of that anymore.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This is probably crazy wishful thinking.. how about they recreate the standard environment from years ago when FoW was Standard legal? Make functional reprints of many cards from Alliance. So they can reprint FoW today.
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Unbanning it would be another Golgari Grave-Troll fiasco by being quickly banned again. The reason for the banning is still in effect and since WotC doesn't plan on making creatures bad again that will pretty much always be so. Cards like Collected Company and Eldritch Evolution are clear signs that WotC wants to support that style of deck but not with Pod itself.
If goyf get's banned. I could replace the goyfs in my ponza with similarly strong creatures like Nullhide Ferox, Thurn, or more dragons. Just have to pray that the Hollow One decks decrease, because my purpose for adding goyf there is to help stall the H1 decks in their early attacks.
Some BGx decks would collapse if goyf is suddenly gone. There is just no replacement for him in those decks.
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Bolt? Serum? Goyf? Simply WHY.
It's not even Modern if you take that whole list, just go make up Frontier or something.
Spirits
I hate Dredge as much as the next person, but let's not pretend GGT was doing anything broken or busted or banworthy. It was unbanned in January of 2015 and promptly did nothing for more than a year. Shadows over Innistrad brought Insolent Neonate and Prized Amalgam in April of 2016 and then Kaladesh tore the deck to pieces in September of 2016 with Cathartic Reunion. It was then banned the following January 2017.
I mean, beyond Dredge just being a dumb mechanic that probably shouldn't exist, the deck was still a random, innocuous Tier 2 pile until it got two new busted enablers and a powerful new payoff.
It was not a fiasco, it was not a problem with GGT, it was Wizards printing new things to break a mechanic that shouldn't exist, and for whatever reason, they felt it was the right reason to re-ban the card that did nothing for a year and a half instead of examine the real problems.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Anyway, I know I said I would stay away from 2 Card combo's but RUG Scrapeshift is FUN, and gives me that Twin like feel, I apologize to my Jund opponent you deserved better than those back to back Top Deck Scapeshifts...
Spirits
The problem that some people don't realize with the banning of Deathrite Shaman is that Noble Hierarch becomes the best mana dork now. Noble Hierarch was far from busted before, but with all of the bannings that have happened, even the little Human that could has earned its place in the top 5 cards in Modern, if not Top 3. Sure, Deathrite Shaman is busted. I will not advocate an unban right now.
There is a Zoo player at my LGS that believes that Ancient Stirrings and Faithless Looting will both be banned to "fix" the format. I personally still see 3 unbans at least that could maybe not fix...but help the format at least. You have to actively give people a reason to not play Ancient Stirrings, Faithless Looting, or Noble Hierarch. I think people have finally realized how strong some of these cards are, including how strong Manamorphose is.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The problem with Hierarch if tried to use in Ponza is because it does not produce R. If there would be a hierarch that produced red.. would be saving up money and buy one every month until I have a playset. Deathrite Shaman is not competitive, it is broken. No reason that a card banned in Legacy should be legal in Modern.
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The format is a little stale, it's Stirrings, loot, noble or bust. I don't think you can just ban those cards either, that would be so disastrous in modern.
At the same time, who would seriously ever pick up Izzet Phoenix when you could just play Splinter Twin? I sure as hell wouldn't.
We need some serious shake up unbans. If they unban just SFM that will be such a joke. Unless---SFM gives Azorious such a quick clock it runs the aggro decks out of town?
Dredge is still a stupid mechanic that will ALWAYS be a risk and I wouldn't mourn the death of the deck dying off, tier 1 or not.
That being said, a few years ago---thoughtseize, lightning bolt, Goyf and Snapcaster were the face of modern. It transitioned into Loot, Stirrings and Noble. It could just be a phase.
Not to be that guy who always jumps in to defend BGx, but maybe I’m just actually that guy who always jumps in to defend BGx.
First of all, I’m a huge fan of Grixis/4c Shadow. The deck is the real deal and I’d happily agree with the consensus that it’s the most well-positioned Thoughtseize deck in the format right now.
That said, your anecdote doesn’t really serve as a condemnation of BGx’s power IMO. You had a solid hand, sure, but so did your opponent! A great many decks in the format would easily have been in for an early death, assuming some decent finds off Looting and Whisper. You also lacked a clock, and most times, if an early progression of discard into Bob isn’t setting your opponent back then finding you a clock, it’s setting your opponent back then finding you answers, which is what happened here. Finally, Shadow could indeed have had that game on lock more readily, but remember that Shadow thrives against combo decks—those Stubbs look a lot worse when the opponent is playing one of the format’s Aether Vial decks.
Again, I agree that Shadow is arguably the best place to be right now if you want to interact, especially if your heart’s not in the idea of BGx and/or you’re feeling the allure of what U brings to the table. But this notion that BGx is a far-distant second that just doesn’t have what it takes to rumble in Modern (not that you’ve said this, but it’s been implied elsewhere in this thread)...man, I just don’t see that at all. Every opposing matchup is within reason for a well-tuned Jund or Golgari deck now that Trophy has helped close the gap against big mana.
On the topic of the relative difficulty of the format’s most popular decks, the author’s personal ratings are fairly reasonable IMO. Personally, I’ve hopped decks an embarrassing number of times, having owned GB Elves, UBw Mill, Norin Sisters, Living End, D&T, Humans, UW Control, Ad Nauseam, Taking Turns, and Abzan/Golgari. For me, the linear aggro or combo decks were by far easier to pilot optimally than the interactive decks like D&T, BGx, and UWC (which I played during the pre-Jace meta when Shadow was king and the UWC decks were doing a lot of tapping out for Seas, Gideons, and Verdicts). I say this in full acknowledgment that I’ve never extensively played some of the more complex combo decks like Amulet Titan; nevertheless, my experience has been that linearity correlates with more easily obtained proficiency, on the whole.
Anyone can cast a Thoughtseize, a JtMS, or a Leonin Arbiter, but navigating your way to consistently strong results on the backs of those cards in a format as broad as this one is a very different story!
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URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Yes but what percentage of the meta does each archtype occupy. I argue the meta is far too tilted towards Aggro/Tempo. WOTC does its best to cripple and keep Combo, Control and Big Mana down...Midrange was collateral damage but Aggro when is the last time an aggro hoser got printed?
Control
U/W
Jeskai
Midrange
Grixis Death’s Shadow
Jund
Abzan
'Fish' Tribal
Spirits
Humans
Aggro
Dredge
Hollow One
UR Phoenix
Hardened Scales
Affinity
Burn
Combo
KCI
Amulet
Storm
Scapeshift
Prison
Lantern
Tron
Tron
Spirits
Settle the Wreckage, a Standard legal card that is a mainstay in Standard top-tier non-aggro strategies. Incidentally, it also sees play in Modern, a testament to just how good the card is.
I am baffled by FCG's allegation that the format is becoming stale. As cfp said, there are probably fifty decks that can win events from week to week. Yes, some are Hierarch/Looting/Stirrings decks. But why is that a problem? Legacy decks are largely BrainStorm/Tomb/Depths decks and no one cares about that. Standard also has pillars like Teferi, Tyrant, and History of Benalia. Pillars aren't a problem. Pillars are inevitable. Especially in non-rotating formats. If anything, this is just a misapplication of the Twin ban precedent, or the DRS precedent, where a single pillar had a significant metagame share that allegedly stifled diversity. None of Modern's current pillars actually do that, as the format is the most diverse it has probably ever been.
I don't understand how anyone could look at the last 12 months of results and call for a ban. Even the last 3 months. There are too many viable decks, and too much diversity within the so-called pillars. Who cares if Hierarch is a pillar when it enables radically different decks in Infect, Humans, Bant Spirits, and Company strategies? That's not remotely comparable to DRS empowering 22% BGx decks alone.
Stop calling for bans without an evidence-based banning case. The shakeup/brewer's paradise/stale format argument for a ban is neither defensible nor even real. Wizards has banned nothing in Modern since early 2017. If you are calling for bans like FCG, Gemini, and others are, at least take the time to compare the current Modern period to similar no-ban periods in the last two years. If you can't find significant diversity differences, you have no case for a ban. Ban mania remains the single biggest discussion killer in this format that prevents us from having meaningful discussions about more important topics.
I do. People just hate combo. That's it
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
And WOTC printed a hoser to the best 4 CMC boardwipe in ages. So I am not quite buying your argument that WOTC is out to help Control.
Also @idSurge you didn't disapprove my point. I said what percentage of the meta does each archtype take, not how many decks each archtype have that are viable.
I mean come on how much Lantern play is there really? Besides even on your list, 8 of 19 decks are Aggro Family Decks. 42% of the meta is Aggro.