I didn't say outright better wipes I said conditionally ie if your opponent dumps a bunch of creatures onto board without paying for them then the wipe is cheaper. Set the number of creatures cast not played to 3. Humans and Spirits can still use their vials but the Faithless Looting decks should be checked. Not that I think WOTC will bother.
Also I think I have been clear the control top end is fine...unless you think a creature clock is a must but GDS and Farieres have shown you don't need an expensive cnc option for that just has to get big or make a whole lot of tokens with evasion or pump. The issue is more the other cards decks as you noted overcosted draw and counters and boardwipes besides terminus that are way too slow.
Or you know as I said change Lavinia, Azorius Renegade from "opponent can't cast noncreatures spells" to "opponent can't cast creatures spells". For a creature based solution what do you think about that. If WOTC wants to say creatures fine then print some better control creatures. Instead of printing creatures that only rekt control.
I think Lavinia could have been fine without that non-creature clause. I run Teeg, and I think will probably continue to, but asking Wizard's to block creature's from being cast, in 2018, just not going to happen.
There is a conditional wipe that gets cheaper for a higher number of permanents, isnt there? Found it, Hour of Revelation. is it good enough? I doubt it, but it's there.
Who knows, perhaps Dev looks at the Phoenix/Hollow One decks and prints some of the 'hint hint this is hate' like they did for Tron and Storm in the last few sets?
No I mean switch the noncreature clause to creatures ie no cheating out creatures without lands.
As for hour a good start way too high a permanent count though and too much white mana lol. Basically the problem for control is the early game and while faithless looting decks can put a lot on the board ten permanents early game plus maybe a snapcaster from the average control deck? Yeah not likely to happen.
Right, but I just played a match, 2 actually, UW Terminus, and Adnaus. Game 1 of both, I had a 'fair' slow start, no Mana Dork, and little action. UW Player hit a Terminus, followed with a Jace, and that literally is game. I bring in Teeg, have better hands, and win the following 2 games. Against the Adnaus player there is no way for me to stop him going off on turn 4 or 5, even with pressure I know I'm dead, so concede.
Now, I'm not on a fast deck, but what you are saying is Control needs a way to get through the early game, which I agree is an issue, but the 'early game' is 3 turns. Its why I cannot play UW, because its Terminus or bust, but if it hits Terminus? It is not hard for them to pull ahead.
Well i am having trouble understanding your ancedote cause I don't know what your playing but overall I think we agree the problem with Control is not the top end well at least for UW or Jeskai Control...Grixis might be a bit different and Sultai is a pipe dream. The issue is getting past the first three turns. UW is Terminus or bust. Jeskai is kill everything one for one pretty much. Which is why Hour of Revelation is more a Commander card then anything else lol.
Control needs to be able to slow down the early game with good answers (board wipes and spot removal) and ways to find those answers (draw and card selection). However, WOTC only like unconditional boardwipes at 5 CMC, conditional boardwipes at 4 CMC, and at 3 CMC you get boardwipes with heavy conditions that are useless in Modern, 5 and 4 CMC too slow and 3 CMC miss way too much. 3 CMC or worse counters and draw 2 for 4 CMC, again too slow and expensive. Which is why I suggested you know maybe WOTC could work on more controlling creatures since they seem to hate most of the pillars of a good control deck but love creatures. So that change to Lavinia I suggested would slow down Aggro meaning maybe enough for a 4 CMC classic boardwipe could actually matter.
I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming from since by design aggro is supposed to beat control. The fact that control often has to rely on board wipe or bust is a feature, not a bug.
For the record I don't have complaints, I don't want bans and I play Legacy but rarely play blue myself. I don't want fow/waste/tutoring in Modern, but it is the absence of such cards combined with a format of almost similar speed that make people feel the format lacks interactivity.
Clearly the term "interactive" will mean different things to different people, if enough people say it lacks interactivity, and it is apparently a common complaint, then to them it must lack interactivity. It us no good arguing this by pointing out "it is interactive", there is no metric to measure interactivity. You can measure speed, win rates, etc. but the feeling of " I got to play abd interact", not really measurable in the same way.
Legacy does not have people complaining about interactivity. Now I can't proove why they don't complain about it, but I don't think it is unreasinable to suggest the existence of Force et al makes the players feel their format is more interactive.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I'm having a hard time understanding where you are coming from since by design aggro is supposed to beat control. The fact that control often has to rely on board wipe or bust is a feature, not a bug.
This.
Aggro -> Midrange -> Control.
Aggro loses to Midrange
Midrange loses to Control
Control loses to Aggro.
This cycle is the basis of every format, and has been since forever.
Midrange should have the tools to dismantle Combo.
Combo needs to be faster than Aggro.
Etc, etc.
If you want to beat Aggro, you dont do it with Control.
yeah terminus just isnt a very fun card to play with or against. i cant tell you how many times while playing UW where i would get a blind hit, make eye contact with my opponent, and have the silent exchange amounting to 'yeah its stupid, but this is what its come to'.
that said UW miracles is the only control build i have ever seen that can legitimately hold control against pretty much anything. the first time you have that infrequent type of match against tron and you go into the real lategame and overpower them through multiple castings of ulamog is an eye opening experience.
so you take the good with the bad. its surge in popularity a few months back or whatever was a nod to the good, and its gradual fade back into the crowd was a nod to the bad. playing pretend at having your own nut draws with terminus loses its luster pretty quick when you realize that as a reactionary play, its still contingent on your opponent cooporating. that and there just isnt a lot you can do to address getting cards stuck in your hand and no way to convert them to any value. jace brainstorming is really quite mediocre in modern.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Hilarious. “Control” is not some static archetype common to all formats at all times, any more than “midrange”, “aggro”, “tempo”, “combo” or “big mana” are.
Specific archetypes (also builds) matter. Like, a lot. Hell, specific cards matter too.
The notion that “aggro” should always be a safe bet vs “control” (for instance) is absolutely ludicrous.
There is no midrange though or so little it barely counts yeah every once in awhile a Rock Deck pops up and Grixis Death Shadow looks like it might be on the way up but the jury is out on that. Still there is not much consistent going on on that front. Are we counting Izzet Arclight as Midrange even so its a paltry meta share compared to aggro decks. So the cycle is broken and the only Combo is a rare storm deck or KCI. Basically problem is Aggro decks are choking out all the competition. Because answers have not kept pace with the creatures that are boosting Aggro.
Its like Avatar the Last Airbender...Aggro is the Fire Nation and they have killed the Air Nomads (Midrange), crippled the Water Tribes (Control) and are beating up the Earth Nation (Combo and Big Mana or your Ancient Stirring Decks). And the Avatar (WOTC) who suppose to keep the balance is missing.
Its like Avatar the Last Airbender...Aggro is the Fire Nation and they have killed the Air Nomads (Midrange), crippled the Water Tribes (Control) and are beating up the Earth Nation (Combo and Big Mana or your Ancient Stirring Decks). And the Avatar (WOTC) who suppose to keep the balance is missing.
That is an entertaining analysis of it. So the question now is.. how do we stop the Aggro bad guys who are beating the crap out of everyone?
Well, after the my first encounters with the phoenix decks... they are indeed strong. Capable of overwhelming board presence in just a few turns. However, I think people will eventually adapt to them in some way.
Well as I noted better card draw and card selection to find answers, better boardwipes with conditional cost reduction if say your opponent cheats too many creatures into play, and/or creatures that punish such creature cheating and cost reduction.
I mean white specifically could use better spot removal I guess but that is not general, white could be better in general. I am sorry MARO being fair is unfair for the player playing said fair card. White needs to break parity more. The law is not always fair after all.
Aggro is high, but I'm playing every night, on Knightfall this week and I'm sorry but you'll run into it all unless your local is just warped.
Tonight was Tron, UG Evolve, GW Evolution, UW Control, and GDS. Oh and some Mono W aggro deck oh yeah and AdNaus.
If it WAS just Aggro, I would play UWR, and clean up, just like at the start of the year.
Your local meta is irrelevant to me, I don't rate anecdotal evidence all that highly. WOTC is not making decisions on your local meta. Obviously in a less competitive local meta anything works. Also I dispute the argument Jeskai works great against Aggro sure it works if I am playing Humans or Spirits when creatures stay dead. But not really when I am playing a deck where most of creature comeback unless exiled or the creatures coming down have toughness above three.
I am talking about what works when their actual money and prestige on the line. What wins at a GP or a SCG Open or even a Modern Challenge on MTGO?
Here is how it went. It looks like a mono R phoenix.
Game 1: I lost turn 4 to what seems like a nut draw.
Game 2: it became a grind. He killed the first Glorybringer, but he was not able to kill a second one that I equipped a basilisk collar. The dragon and 5/6 goyf helped me race.
Game 3: he had another nut draw and I lost the turn before batterskull could swing.
Let us ban looting! ---> this is just a joke OK.
_____________________________
@autumn twilight
I think white has plenty decent removal already. Path to Exile, Settle The Wreckage and Blessed Alliance are all good.
That doesn't change anything you are playing fun right? And that doesn't change my second point, anecdotal evidence.
No but that is not relevant. WOTC doesn't balance on local meta, they balance based on competitive. Do you dispute this?
Does Settle see any play in Modern? Heck WOTC thinks its too good for Standard. Path is a one off that MARO calls a mistake that will never make again what is the 2nd best White Spot Removal in Modern? Blessed Alliance? How much play does Blessed Alliance even see in Modern?
I am not demanding WOTC balance the local meta either...the competitive meta on the other hand?
Yeah I think they could do more to balance Aggro against Control and Midrange.
I mean sure we see Tron Hate and Combo Hate printed regularly of late. But how much Aggro hate have we seen of late?
If there would be more of these phoenix decks appear in my local meta. Would bring back main deck scavenging ooze and lava coils, because what caused me to lose is the phoenix keep coming back.
I am saying Jeskai is better fit against Humans or Spirits then its Dredge and Phoenix.
But also Aggro not the only threat Stirrings Decks are still abundant.
Do you play Jund? @The_Fluff Still in general given the abundance of grave shenanigans in general yeah I use Ooze. Its main deckable and there always something to eat even if its only optimal against grave decks.
Also I think I have been clear the control top end is fine...unless you think a creature clock is a must but GDS and Farieres have shown you don't need an expensive cnc option for that just has to get big or make a whole lot of tokens with evasion or pump. The issue is more the other cards decks as you noted overcosted draw and counters and boardwipes besides terminus that are way too slow.
Or you know as I said change Lavinia, Azorius Renegade from "opponent can't cast noncreatures spells" to "opponent can't cast creatures spells". For a creature based solution what do you think about that. If WOTC wants to say creatures fine then print some better control creatures. Instead of printing creatures that only rekt control.
There is a conditional wipe that gets cheaper for a higher number of permanents, isnt there? Found it, Hour of Revelation. is it good enough? I doubt it, but it's there.
Who knows, perhaps Dev looks at the Phoenix/Hollow One decks and prints some of the 'hint hint this is hate' like they did for Tron and Storm in the last few sets?
Spirits
As for hour a good start way too high a permanent count though and too much white mana lol. Basically the problem for control is the early game and while faithless looting decks can put a lot on the board ten permanents early game plus maybe a snapcaster from the average control deck? Yeah not likely to happen.
Now, I'm not on a fast deck, but what you are saying is Control needs a way to get through the early game, which I agree is an issue, but the 'early game' is 3 turns. Its why I cannot play UW, because its Terminus or bust, but if it hits Terminus? It is not hard for them to pull ahead.
Spirits
Control needs to be able to slow down the early game with good answers (board wipes and spot removal) and ways to find those answers (draw and card selection). However, WOTC only like unconditional boardwipes at 5 CMC, conditional boardwipes at 4 CMC, and at 3 CMC you get boardwipes with heavy conditions that are useless in Modern, 5 and 4 CMC too slow and 3 CMC miss way too much. 3 CMC or worse counters and draw 2 for 4 CMC, again too slow and expensive. Which is why I suggested you know maybe WOTC could work on more controlling creatures since they seem to hate most of the pillars of a good control deck but love creatures. So that change to Lavinia I suggested would slow down Aggro meaning maybe enough for a 4 CMC classic boardwipe could actually matter.
Clearly the term "interactive" will mean different things to different people, if enough people say it lacks interactivity, and it is apparently a common complaint, then to them it must lack interactivity. It us no good arguing this by pointing out "it is interactive", there is no metric to measure interactivity. You can measure speed, win rates, etc. but the feeling of " I got to play abd interact", not really measurable in the same way.
Legacy does not have people complaining about interactivity. Now I can't proove why they don't complain about it, but I don't think it is unreasinable to suggest the existence of Force et al makes the players feel their format is more interactive.
This.
Aggro -> Midrange -> Control.
Aggro loses to Midrange
Midrange loses to Control
Control loses to Aggro.
This cycle is the basis of every format, and has been since forever.
Midrange should have the tools to dismantle Combo.
Combo needs to be faster than Aggro.
Etc, etc.
If you want to beat Aggro, you dont do it with Control.
Spirits
that said UW miracles is the only control build i have ever seen that can legitimately hold control against pretty much anything. the first time you have that infrequent type of match against tron and you go into the real lategame and overpower them through multiple castings of ulamog is an eye opening experience.
so you take the good with the bad. its surge in popularity a few months back or whatever was a nod to the good, and its gradual fade back into the crowd was a nod to the bad. playing pretend at having your own nut draws with terminus loses its luster pretty quick when you realize that as a reactionary play, its still contingent on your opponent cooporating. that and there just isnt a lot you can do to address getting cards stuck in your hand and no way to convert them to any value. jace brainstorming is really quite mediocre in modern.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Specific archetypes (also builds) matter. Like, a lot. Hell, specific cards matter too.
The notion that “aggro” should always be a safe bet vs “control” (for instance) is absolutely ludicrous.
Its like Avatar the Last Airbender...Aggro is the Fire Nation and they have killed the Air Nomads (Midrange), crippled the Water Tribes (Control) and are beating up the Earth Nation (Combo and Big Mana or your Ancient Stirring Decks). And the Avatar (WOTC) who suppose to keep the balance is missing.
That is an entertaining analysis of it. So the question now is.. how do we stop the Aggro bad guys who are beating the crap out of everyone?
Well, after the my first encounters with the phoenix decks... they are indeed strong. Capable of overwhelming board presence in just a few turns. However, I think people will eventually adapt to them in some way.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Tonight was Tron, UG Evolve, GW Evolution, UW Control, and GDS. Oh and some Mono W aggro deck oh yeah and AdNaus.
If it WAS just Aggro, I would play UWR, and clean up, just like at the start of the year.
Spirits
I mean white specifically could use better spot removal I guess but that is not general, white could be better in general. I am sorry MARO being fair is unfair for the player playing said fair card. White needs to break parity more. The law is not always fair after all.
Your local meta is irrelevant to me, I don't rate anecdotal evidence all that highly. WOTC is not making decisions on your local meta. Obviously in a less competitive local meta anything works. Also I dispute the argument Jeskai works great against Aggro sure it works if I am playing Humans or Spirits when creatures stay dead. But not really when I am playing a deck where most of creature comeback unless exiled or the creatures coming down have toughness above three.
I am talking about what works when their actual money and prestige on the line. What wins at a GP or a SCG Open or even a Modern Challenge on MTGO?
Are you on the GP grind?
Spirits
Game 1: I lost turn 4 to what seems like a nut draw.
Game 2: it became a grind. He killed the first Glorybringer, but he was not able to kill a second one that I equipped a basilisk collar. The dragon and 5/6 goyf helped me race.
Game 3: he had another nut draw and I lost the turn before batterskull could swing.
Let us ban looting! ---> this is just a joke OK.
_____________________________
@autumn twilight
I think white has plenty decent removal already. Path to Exile, Settle The Wreckage and Blessed Alliance are all good.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
No but that is not relevant. WOTC doesn't balance on local meta, they balance based on competitive. Do you dispute this?
Does Settle see any play in Modern? Heck WOTC thinks its too good for Standard. Path is a one off that MARO calls a mistake that will never make again what is the 2nd best White Spot Removal in Modern? Blessed Alliance? How much play does Blessed Alliance even see in Modern?
Well, I'm just playing for fun.. not demanding wotc to balance my local meta. What I said about looting to be banned is just a joke.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Yeah I think they could do more to balance Aggro against Control and Midrange.
I mean sure we see Tron Hate and Combo Hate printed regularly of late. But how much Aggro hate have we seen of late?
I mean what exactly are you playing and asking for?
If you want to beat up Aggro, and have game against nearly everyone, why wouldn't you be on GDS, with Leyline of the Void in the side?
If you're going to claim that you know how Wizards runs the banlist you are going to have to accept that they have not banned anything.
Therefore, I guess Modern is fine.
Spirits
Are you going to tell me that UWR could not gear up to beat Aggro? Because thats fundamentally false.
Spirits
I know they wont do what I want them to do reading MARO helps with that.
If there would be more of these phoenix decks appear in my local meta. Would bring back main deck scavenging ooze and lava coils, because what caused me to lose is the phoenix keep coming back.
Nexus MTG News // Nexus - Magic Art Gallery // MTG Dual Land Color Ratios Analyzer // MTG Card Drawing Odds Calculator
Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
But also Aggro not the only threat Stirrings Decks are still abundant.
Do you play Jund? @The_Fluff Still in general given the abundance of grave shenanigans in general yeah I use Ooze. Its main deckable and there always something to eat even if its only optimal against grave decks.