It seems as though the format has been able to regulate itself without interference.
I didnt get to catch SCG much today as I had just GARBAGE to deal with from dawn to dusk it seemed (back to back Turn 3 kills from Storm against Tron was the high point of my day however) but I wouldn't be surprised if this is right. Modern is too powerful, too diverse, and we do have answers at this point for much of what is going on.
I still would not be shocked if there is a 'best deck' or 2, or maybe 3, but...even jank can beat most decks these days. The format has soo much power going on.
Bridge vine looked busted and that got shut down. Death's Shadow was hotly debated as almost being a legacy deck, and now Human's has ruined that deck.
Almost feels kinda silly talking about bans nowadays. It'd be nice if SFM was unbanned but it's not worth losing sleep over.
Guess in 2 years maybe they'll experiment more with MTG coverage looking like Hearthstone or something.
Yeah, to see that Cragganwick Cremator deck win the Modern Challenge was just a mind blowing experience. I wish I had known about that deck earlier. It turns out there are a few streams out there. A friend even told me that Caleb Durward streamed the deck, but I was unable to find that stream. Part of me likes to think that everyone just auto scooped to that deck, but friends have convinced me that it is not what happened and the deck is actually good, lol.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I went 4-0 tonight with Goblins + Experimental Frenzy that I literally threw together with jank I have sitting around from old Vengevine decks, I call it FenzyWhack. Beating UW, Eldrazi/Taxes, Infect, and Traverse Death Shadow...I mean should Goblins beat 'real' decks?
I went 4-0 tonight with Goblins + Experimental Frenzy that I literally threw together with jank I have sitting around from old Vengevine decks, I call it FenzyWhack. Beating UW, Eldrazi/Taxes, Infect, and Traverse Death Shadow...I mean should Goblins beat 'real' decks?
Thats Modern.
Considering my screen name, yes, Goblins should beat real Modern decks.
Yeah, that's actually pretty crazy. The days of me beating most players at my LGS with anything, including jank, has been over for quite a while now, so I'm actually pretty jealous. Can you message me a deck list? It could be something I'm interested in. Not sure if I'll have time, as I'm waiting on 1 more Cragganwick Cremator to come to try that deck, but seems sweet as well.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I went 4-0 tonight with Goblins + Experimental Frenzy that I literally threw together with jank I have sitting around from old Vengevine decks, I call it FenzyWhack. Beating UW, Eldrazi/Taxes, Infect, and Traverse Death Shadow...I mean should Goblins beat 'real' decks?
Thats Modern.
Also intsrested to see that. Can you message me the deck list? Thanks.
Wow, add in the 2 GW ones and Tron is #1 in the field. Don't recall ever seeing that at an SCG event. And luckily for all those pilots the Arclight Phoenix decks haven't really made the jump to paper, just the one copy there, because that matchup is horrendous.
Day 2 SCG Open Meta. Hmm wonder what is going on here.
Humans is clearly one of the best decks, Tron still is Tron, and then you get to the Tier 1.5, followed by 'Modern Diversity'.
What exactly is in that Tier 1.5? Bant Spirits, UW Control, Dredge, and Burn are all definitely Tier 1. Dredge, Jeskai, Storm, and Jund might be Tier 1.5? I dunno. That seems like a weird distinction which isn't particularly helpful for understanding the metagame.
I'm more interested in seeing the T32 than the Day 2. We've already established that Day 2 numbers are by themselves fairly meaningless without Day 1 numbers to compare. But the Day 2 to T32 conversions are definitely useful.
It's likely categorized as such because both Humans and Tron are essentially each double the representation of each of the next best chunk of decks. There's no smooth linear gradient, it's Humans/Tron, massive gap to next decks (few 5s, 6s, 7s), then a ton of 1s, 2s, and 3s. That's a fair assessment of this event.
Day 2 SCG Open Meta. Hmm wonder what is going on here.
Humans is clearly one of the best decks, Tron still is Tron, and then you get to the Tier 1.5, followed by 'Modern Diversity'.
What exactly is in that Tier 1.5? Bant Spirits, UW Control, Dredge, and Burn are all definitely Tier 1. Dredge, Jeskai, Storm, and Jund might be Tier 1.5? I dunno. That seems like a weird distinction which isn't particularly helpful for understanding the metagame.
I'm more interested in seeing the T32 than the Day 2. We've already established that Day 2 numbers are by themselves fairly meaningless without Day 1 numbers to compare. But the Day 2 to T32 conversions are definitely useful.
Just an arbitrary claim of power on my part, your mileage may vary. I feel Humans, Tron, and UW are the 'real' Tier 1. I'm not sure I would put Burn there, but I would say Dredge can be, its just such a victim of hate, much like Affinity used to be 'real' tier 1, but if people brought out the hate? It was dumpstered.
You cannot hate out Humans, you cannot hate out Tron, and I dont think you can really hate out UW. Thats all I mean really.
It's likely categorized as such because both Humans and Tron are essentially each double the representation of each of the next best chunk of decks. There's no smooth linear gradient, it's Humans/Tron, massive gap to next decks (few 5s, 6s, 7s), then a ton of 1s, 2s, and 3s. That's a fair assessment of this event.
Yeah, but we can't decide format-wide Tiers based on a single SCG Day 2. And if we're talking about event-specific Tiers, that's meaningless. Hence why I didn't understand the distinction. Id's later post made it clearer, and I agree that Tron, UW, and Humans are indisputably Tier 1. I also think Burn is probably there too.
I can see an argument for it, as its hard to hate it out, thats my personal benchmark, how dead are you if the field says 'f that deck, heres 4 pieces of hate'.
I'm in the 'many things are viable' and as we discussed long ago Tiers are not about power, so much as representation, and other 'soft' considerations.
You cannot hate out Humans, you cannot hate out Tron, and I dont think you can really hate out UW. Thats all I mean really.
Eh? You can absolutely hate out Tron as long as you don't decide to spend the next 6 or so turns twiddling your thumbs.
Not only does Tron play many answers to most things that people consider "Tron hate" they can also simply play through a lot of it. Either by playing good green creatures or simply making land drops and casting things the old fashion way. The only way you "hate out" Tron is to kill them before it matters. Anything else is just a speed bump.
I agree with whoever said several pages back that Dredge was quite strong even before the printing of Chill. While the new tech represents a noteworthy upgrade, the low meta share of Dredge prior to its release was baffling to me. Whenever I looked closely at a Dredge list, ran into one across the table, or took one for a spin myself, the deck has always seemed very, very good.
At our LGS, we have a player who LOVES Dredge. He played it for so many years in many formats. He qualified for his first Pro Tour during Golgari Grave-Troll Dredge in Modern. I will tell you this. After it was banned, he actually didn't play for a long time. Just last week, I saw him back again with Creeping Chill. I trust his knowledge on the deck more than anyone I know.
I also played Dredge during Golgari Grave-Troll because it was too good not to play. When it was banned, I just didn't want to play a crappier version of the deck. I tested it a bit at home and it just seemed mediocre at best. So I ditched it. If I can't play my (slightly better than) Tier 1 deck, why would I want to play a Tier 2 version of it? That's my reasoning at least. I assume that many current Dredge players are not dedicated Dredge players, but playing it more so because it is perceived as a Tier 1 deck or even the "best deck" right now.
I've always been scared of a lot more decks than Dredge, but then I'm not usually playing Midrange or Control. Midrange is the archetype I personally don't enjoy and I've also shied away from Control in order to run proactive strategies instead. The decks I usually play are either faster than Dredge, have a good matchup against Dredge, or do something more unfair than Dredge.
Heh, by contrast I’ve pretty much always been on some form of midrange or control as my primary deck. I guess that pretty much explains our respective takes on pre-Chill Dredge!
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Nah, I'm talking like RIP vs Dredge, or Eidolon vs Storm as Burn, or the literal piles of Artifact hate vs Affinity.
All of which are, in fact, beatable by those decks.
Tron loses a land, shrugs, and tutors up another. Tron is extremely hate resilient.
I mean, if you play a hate card and then twiddle your thumbs for turn after turn after turn afterwards, then yeah, Tron can recover, but that's not particularly different from the above examples. If you cast your Storm hate and then just sit back, they'll get their answer with a Gifts Ungiven, remove it, and then go off anyway.
I'm not going to bother with the debate. I've played against it any million of times, and same as Dredge, small creature decks, whatever. If you think Tron hate is the same as hate against other decks, more power to you.
I'm not going to bother with the debate. I've played against it any million of times, and same as Dredge, small creature decks, whatever. If you think Tron hate is the same as hate against other decks, more power to you.
I'm not really sure what this means. The best Tron hate appears to be Field of Ruin, which is one of the reasons that UW Control is roughly 55/45 against Tron in the giant GP/SCG dataset I have. That's a slow deck which is positive against Tron, and it features one of the best hate cards. It's also Tier 1 and blue-based, so I'm not sure what the Tron issue is here. To me, it feels like you classify Tron as an unfair deck (reasonable) which means it should have some knockout hate cards the same way Dredge and KCI do in RiP and Stony respectively (less reasonable). It doesn't, and that's just fine because both fast and slow decks are beating it and the deck isn't dominant.
Double Titan is very interesting, as that's a more under-the-radar deck without too much recent MTGO success. Zero Humans, Dredge, and Tron in the T8 shows the vulnerabilities of those archetypes and again undermines the reactionary arguments for bans we've seen in this thread. As usual, Modern continues to self regulate and a huge range of archetypes are viable.
It means that the hate one has against Tron, is not as effective, as the hate that is available against Affinity, or Dredge.
I'm not making an argument on if its fair enough, or unfair enough, or balanced, or overpowered.
Is there hate which knocks it out? No.
I did just do this however against it.
1. Fetch Stomping Ground - Guide - Swing for 2.
1. Tower - Map
2. Mountain - Steam-Kin - Swing for 2.
2. Mine - Crack Map for Tron
3. Fetch Stomping Ground - Manamorphose, Guide, Reckless Bushwhacker - Swing for 13 - Take the Counters off the Steam-Kin, Lavaspike.
GG.
So is tron unbeatable? No. Is the hate against it on the same tier as the hate for GY and Artifacts? No, not in my opinion.
Now if people want to argue it is, thats certainly their argument to make. After playing this format for what, 5 years, is the hate against Tron as effective as I would like?
Nope.
EDIT: SCG Top 8.
I missed the first half of the Top 8, but this is what I saw.
The effectiveness of hate particularly in comparison to other archetypes is debatable. Stony Silence is very good against Affinity for example, but it can be removed or gone around just like Dampening Sphere. Alpine Moon is a 1 mana card that completely invalidates Tron's entire gameplan. Yes they can remove it just like any other permanent based hate card, but in order to play around it they need a minimum of 6 turns to get to Wurmcoil. If a deck cannot close out the game in that time it doesn't deserve to win.
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I didnt get to catch SCG much today as I had just GARBAGE to deal with from dawn to dusk it seemed (back to back Turn 3 kills from Storm against Tron was the high point of my day however) but I wouldn't be surprised if this is right. Modern is too powerful, too diverse, and we do have answers at this point for much of what is going on.
I still would not be shocked if there is a 'best deck' or 2, or maybe 3, but...even jank can beat most decks these days. The format has soo much power going on.
Spirits
Almost feels kinda silly talking about bans nowadays. It'd be nice if SFM was unbanned but it's not worth losing sleep over.
Guess in 2 years maybe they'll experiment more with MTG coverage looking like Hearthstone or something.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Thats Modern.
Spirits
Considering my screen name, yes, Goblins should beat real Modern decks.
Yeah, that's actually pretty crazy. The days of me beating most players at my LGS with anything, including jank, has been over for quite a while now, so I'm actually pretty jealous. Can you message me a deck list? It could be something I'm interested in. Not sure if I'll have time, as I'm waiting on 1 more Cragganwick Cremator to come to try that deck, but seems sweet as well.
I jank (at the appropriate times of course).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Also intsrested to see that. Can you message me the deck list? Thanks.
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Humans is clearly one of the best decks, Tron still is Tron, and then you get to the Tier 1.5, followed by 'Modern Diversity'.
Humans – 13
Mono-Green Tron – 13
Bant Spirits – 7
Azorius Control – 7
Jund – 7
Dredge – 6
Storm – 6
Jeskai Control – 6
Burn – 5
Amulet Titan – 4
Infect – 4
Hardened+Scales – 3
Grixis Whir – 3
Selesnya Tron – 2
Affinity – 2
Izzet Wizards – 2
Ironworks – 2
Golgari Midrange – 2
Titan Shift – 1
Mardu Pyromancer – 1
Bant Humans – 1
W/B Eldrazi – 1
Elves – 1
Skred Red – 1
Counters Company – 1
8-Rack – 1
Hollow+One – 1
Blue Moon – 1
Gruul Land Destruction – 1
Bant Company – 1
Gruul Eldrazi – 1
Dimir Mill – 1
Runaway Red – 1
Arclight Red – 1
Azorius Spirits – 1
Bring+to+Light – 1
Spirits
What exactly is in that Tier 1.5? Bant Spirits, UW Control, Dredge, and Burn are all definitely Tier 1. Dredge, Jeskai, Storm, and Jund might be Tier 1.5? I dunno. That seems like a weird distinction which isn't particularly helpful for understanding the metagame.
I'm more interested in seeing the T32 than the Day 2. We've already established that Day 2 numbers are by themselves fairly meaningless without Day 1 numbers to compare. But the Day 2 to T32 conversions are definitely useful.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Just an arbitrary claim of power on my part, your mileage may vary. I feel Humans, Tron, and UW are the 'real' Tier 1. I'm not sure I would put Burn there, but I would say Dredge can be, its just such a victim of hate, much like Affinity used to be 'real' tier 1, but if people brought out the hate? It was dumpstered.
You cannot hate out Humans, you cannot hate out Tron, and I dont think you can really hate out UW. Thats all I mean really.
Spirits
Yeah, but we can't decide format-wide Tiers based on a single SCG Day 2. And if we're talking about event-specific Tiers, that's meaningless. Hence why I didn't understand the distinction. Id's later post made it clearer, and I agree that Tron, UW, and Humans are indisputably Tier 1. I also think Burn is probably there too.
I'm in the 'many things are viable' and as we discussed long ago Tiers are not about power, so much as representation, and other 'soft' considerations.
Spirits
Tron loses a land, shrugs, and tutors up another. Tron is extremely hate resilient.
Spirits
Not only does Tron play many answers to most things that people consider "Tron hate" they can also simply play through a lot of it. Either by playing good green creatures or simply making land drops and casting things the old fashion way. The only way you "hate out" Tron is to kill them before it matters. Anything else is just a speed bump.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits
Spirits
Heh, by contrast I’ve pretty much always been on some form of midrange or control as my primary deck. I guess that pretty much explains our respective takes on pre-Chill Dredge!
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I mean, if you play a hate card and then twiddle your thumbs for turn after turn after turn afterwards, then yeah, Tron can recover, but that's not particularly different from the above examples. If you cast your Storm hate and then just sit back, they'll get their answer with a Gifts Ungiven, remove it, and then go off anyway.
Spirits
I'm not really sure what this means. The best Tron hate appears to be Field of Ruin, which is one of the reasons that UW Control is roughly 55/45 against Tron in the giant GP/SCG dataset I have. That's a slow deck which is positive against Tron, and it features one of the best hate cards. It's also Tier 1 and blue-based, so I'm not sure what the Tron issue is here. To me, it feels like you classify Tron as an unfair deck (reasonable) which means it should have some knockout hate cards the same way Dredge and KCI do in RiP and Stony respectively (less reasonable). It doesn't, and that's just fine because both fast and slow decks are beating it and the deck isn't dominant.
EDIT: SCG T8 is
Storm
UW Control
Jund
Titanshift
Amulet Titan
Bant Spirits
Amulet Titan
Izzet Wizards
Double Titan is very interesting, as that's a more under-the-radar deck without too much recent MTGO success. Zero Humans, Dredge, and Tron in the T8 shows the vulnerabilities of those archetypes and again undermines the reactionary arguments for bans we've seen in this thread. As usual, Modern continues to self regulate and a huge range of archetypes are viable.
I'm not making an argument on if its fair enough, or unfair enough, or balanced, or overpowered.
Is there hate which knocks it out? No.
I did just do this however against it.
1. Fetch Stomping Ground - Guide - Swing for 2.
1. Tower - Map
2. Mountain - Steam-Kin - Swing for 2.
2. Mine - Crack Map for Tron
3. Fetch Stomping Ground - Manamorphose, Guide, Reckless Bushwhacker - Swing for 13 - Take the Counters off the Steam-Kin, Lavaspike.
GG.
So is tron unbeatable? No. Is the hate against it on the same tier as the hate for GY and Artifacts? No, not in my opinion.
Now if people want to argue it is, thats certainly their argument to make. After playing this format for what, 5 years, is the hate against Tron as effective as I would like?
Nope.
EDIT: SCG Top 8.
I missed the first half of the Top 8, but this is what I saw.
uw control, jund, amulet titan, Jund, Wizards, Titan Shift, Amulet Titan, Storm?
Spirits