...you do realize that every time you respond to a "twin-hater" or whatever, it's you choosing to engage, right?
Rather than banning all Twin-talk, just... don't engage.
And then we just continue to perpetuate and exaggerate myths and legends that people accept as truth and fact. It's literally a no-win scenario.
What's a win?
At least getting basic facts about the deck or its history accurate. I honestly don't care to talk about it and I don't want to talk about it. I just hate seeing the fear-mongering and misinformation all over the place; which is why I'd rather we just ban discussion again. It's clear WOTC is not going to do anything about it (or SFM, for that matter) until they feel like it. Any reasons for why they might or might not feel like it are completely up in the air (as this last two years has shown us), so anything we say here is ultimately useless.
Fair enough.
Without getting into what "should" or "should not" happen, I will say that I feel that WotC "will" unban Twin at some point. Unbanning BBE and Jace made me feel that cards like Twin, Preordain, and SFM are questions of "when" instead of "if." Well, maybe not Preordain, even though that's the only card on the banned list I'd actually argue in favor of unbanning.
Without getting into what "should" or "should not" happen, I will say that I feel that WotC "will" unban Twin at some point. Unbanning BBE and Jace made me feel that cards like Twin, Preordain, and SFM are questions of "when" instead of "if." Well, maybe not Preordain, even though that's the only card on the banned list I'd actually argue in favor of unbanning.
Preordain... now that that card is mentioned. I remember something we did last year. It was during the time UR Kiln fiend was having some small successes in Modern. A friend asked me to help him test his newly built kiln fiend deck.. well we tested, and I promptly lost... the day after that I remembered he had Ponder and Preordain in his kiln deck.. I reminded him that the next time we met. He apologize and said he forgot those two cards are modern banned. --- ok, I did not mention this to say that Preordain should be banned forever. I'm also in the camp that it should be unbanned at some point, as it would help give some more power to blue decks in modern.
EDIT: we had been testing other decks that day for hours, the fiend deck was tested in the evening where I was already very tired so did not realize he had banned cards in that deck
I could see them keeping Preordain banned, not on a power level reasoning, but just because they don't want a critical mass of good cantrips in the format. I think the card would be fine now, but I could see them not wanting it unbanned.
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Ponder and Preordain were banned together because of too many U or UR Combo decks. But they don't have to be unbanned together. Let me say that again. They don't have to be unbanned together. They are individual cards. Ponder is stronger than Preordain.
Personally I would rather have the stronger Ponder than Preordain, but at the same time, I know there's a much better chance for Preordain once people get over their fears of being Rite of Flamed, Blazing Shoaled, or Splinter Twinned BY PREORDAIN.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
know there's a much better chance for Preordain once people get over their fears
Just speculating.. WoTC might be testing things with Discovery // Dispersal. As Discovery is basically a preordain that costs 1 more. If Discovery does not break anything, they could consider releasing Preordain from ban...
know there's a much better chance for Preordain once people get over their fears
Just speculating.. WoTC might be testing things with Discovery // Dispersal. As Discovery is basically a preordain that costs 1 more. If Discovery does not break anything, they could consider releasing Preordain from ban...
I think that 2 mana for a cantrip is quite huge in Modern.
know there's a much better chance for Preordain once people get over their fears
Just speculating.. WoTC might be testing things with Discovery // Dispersal. As Discovery is basically a preordain that costs 1 more. If Discovery does not break anything, they could consider releasing Preordain from ban...
The difference between 1 and 2 mana for a reasonable cantrip is huge.
Interesting. I see some Grishoalbrand players testing Discovery/Dispersal over Night's Whisper and my first inclination was, "WTF?" Night's Whisper is one of my favorite cards in the deck. It's how the deck gets back a little bit of card disadvantage from using the all powerful Faithless Looting and mana sources (Desperate Ritual/SSG). I haven't played the deck in at least a year, but I still am really interested in the deck. I think access to Preordain would get me to at least try the Grixis version, but I don't think it would break it in the slightest.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I think that is what is making Standard pretty great right now. That are basically making "balanced" versions of powerful cards. Discovery // Dispersal = Preordain for two mana. Thought Erasure = Thoughtseize but for two mana and with an upside rather than downside
Some cards it's a lot harder to balance. Lightning Bolt at two mana (Lightning Strike) is pretty underwhelming, but at 1 mana its super good. The thing with Modern, unlike Standard, is that turn 1 plays are super important, whether it be holding up one mana for removal, Thoughtseize, or cantriping with Serum Visions/ Opt
Modern Open at SCG this weekend. If the paper players at all want to compete they will have 4 GY hate pieces, and I predict Humans (surprise) and BG in the top 8 as my long shot.
UW should be well positioned, but it see's less SCG play.
The real question is if Dredge and its fell Grave Abusers make RIP mainboardable.
I doubt it. It's still Modern - a super diverse format. I have decided to run Bogles, which has a good matchup. I'll get back in a few months to give my tournament record vs. Dredge, 0-0.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Depending on the deck you can justify Relic of Progenitus or Nihil Spellbomb since they cycle in the worst case, but RiP is just too narrow against the field.
RIP hits Storm, Dredge, BridgeVine, Phoenix decks, hampers anyone with Snaps, KCI, hampers Goyf, and hits GW decks running Eternal Witness. I dont know, its one of the main reasons I would bother to play White.
I went 3-1 tonight, my nemesis Tron ruining my evening once again. Cavern of Souls naming Golem + Sundering Titan? F off Tron.
I'm thinking 2 RiPs 2 Surgicals in UW. Dredge has so many answers for Enchantments now, you can't assume your RiPs will get to stick around. Plus, Surgical is good against our worst matchups, Storm and Ad Naus.
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Surgical is okay against dredge, but it's really not all that great. They have so many threats and so many engines that unless you can take advantage of making them stumble (which UW doesn't usually do well) it's just mediocre. If you're wanting to split the difference with multiple matchups then sure, but if you want to hate dredge you need RiP or Relic
In Golgari I’ve got 3x maindeck Scooze, alongside a sideboard including 2x Nihil Spellbomb, 1x Surgical Extraction, and 1x Kalitas, and I’m still feeling half-obligated to bring Flaying Tendrils back into the 75...Dredge is a monstrosity.
I agree with whoever said several pages back that Dredge was quite strong even before the printing of Chill. While the new tech represents a noteworthy upgrade, the low meta share of Dredge prior to its release was baffling to me. Whenever I looked closely at a Dredge list, ran into one across the table, or took one for a spin myself, the deck has always seemed very, very good.
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I agree with whoever said several pages back that Dredge was quite strong even before the printing of Chill. While the new tech represents a noteworthy upgrade, the low meta share of Dredge prior to its release was baffling to me. Whenever I looked closely at a Dredge list, ran into one across the table, or took one for a spin myself, the deck has always seemed very, very good.
At our LGS, we have a player who LOVES Dredge. He played it for so many years in many formats. He qualified for his first Pro Tour during Golgari Grave-Troll Dredge in Modern. I will tell you this. After it was banned, he actually didn't play for a long time. Just last week, I saw him back again with Creeping Chill. I trust his knowledge on the deck more than anyone I know.
I also played Dredge during Golgari Grave-Troll because it was too good not to play. When it was banned, I just didn't want to play a crappier version of the deck. I tested it a bit at home and it just seemed mediocre at best. So I ditched it. If I can't play my (slightly better than) Tier 1 deck, why would I want to play a Tier 2 version of it? That's my reasoning at least. I assume that many current Dredge players are not dedicated Dredge players, but playing it more so because it is perceived as a Tier 1 deck or even the "best deck" right now.
I've always been scared of a lot more decks than Dredge, but then I'm not usually playing Midrange or Control. Midrange is the archetype I personally don't enjoy and I've also shied away from Control in order to run proactive strategies instead. The decks I usually play are either faster than Dredge, have a good matchup against Dredge, or do something more unfair than Dredge.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
That's the issue with dedicated deck specialist types. It's a borderline insult to play a deck after a true Nerf via a ban.
Exactly. It's the main reason I shied away from Amulet Titan for many years, despite loving to play Bloom Titan. The nerf usually ends up taking a deck from Tier 1 or Tier 0.5 to Tier 2 or Tier 3. This is the specific reason people don't enjoy it.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Watching the SCG Open after seeing a lot of Arena streams this week is interesting. To preface, I know it's a different format so it's not quite a comparable experience. I'm also hesitant to compare paper and digital experiences overall, so take that comparison with a grain of salt. All of that admitted, I see some distinct advantages to the way Arena could develop the MTG viewing experience.
With the right overlay and interface, you could easily get player portraits on the screen next to a dynamic battlefield to keep the personal player touch. Plus you have the super fun graphics that the splashy cards generate. All of this could give a digital experience a visual edge that paper cards don't have (as much as I personally enjoy paper's charm/simplicity). Add to this the impossibility of cheating, no deck check requirements, and an overall streamlined judging and logistical experience, and you have a really solid product. But the real edge here is the Twitch overlay. If you haven't seen it, I suggest you tune into a streamer who uses it and try it out. It's awesome. You can mouse-over any element of the battlefield to see full color and size popups of the cards. It solves the ages old problem of cardfetching on Twitch (clunky, not visually pleasing, complicated, requires knowledge of both Twitch and card names) and makes the game so much more visual. It also feels like you're interacting with the battlefield as an observer, like at an LGS. I feel like all of this is going to make MTG a much more viable esport than it was before. It also suggests we might see a day where we can watch major MTG events in the Arena interface sort of like DOTA or League. Not that any element of this theory is particularly groundbreaking, but I'm just noticing it more this weekend.
I don't think this necessarily affects Modern too much. Modern as a format is more popular than Standard and by all metrics we've seen, it's not even that close. This means Modern/MTGO/paper will still have a niche that digital MTG doesn't have. Similarly, paper events are great for the masses, and there's considerable secondary market pressure to keep paper around. Paper is also just fun. So none of this is to say that paper/Modern are going anywhere. That said, I do believe Arena will ultimately lead to a phase out/reduction in the MTGO experience (which is a pillar of Modern), and an uptick in Standard prominence and popularity (which could detract from Wizards/coverage focus on Modern events). I'm curious to see where all of this goes.
I've always been scared of a lot more decks than Dredge, but then I'm not usually playing Midrange or Control. Midrange is the archetype I personally don't enjoy and I've also shied away from Control in order to run proactive strategies instead. The decks I usually play are either faster than Dredge, have a good matchup against Dredge, or do something more unfair than Dredge.
Same here. Probably the deck I'm most scared of in Modern is Burn.
Sure, Dredge can sometimes bring out an army of narco, amalgam and bloodghast turn 3 and I just lose. Creeping Chill adds the burn element to their deck in addition to conflagrate that they already have, making it harder for my Living End deck to get the upper hand. However, game 2 is always fun because it becomes a battle of sideboards. If on Living End, I bring in 3 Crypt Incursion and one Thought Hemorrhage, if on BGx it's 1 Relic, 1 Spellbomb, and 2 Extirpate from the sideboard - have sold all surgicals, so only have Extirpate now.
I await the day that Bloodghast is banned in Modern... just kidding OK.
Without getting into what "should" or "should not" happen, I will say that I feel that WotC "will" unban Twin at some point. Unbanning BBE and Jace made me feel that cards like Twin, Preordain, and SFM are questions of "when" instead of "if." Well, maybe not Preordain, even though that's the only card on the banned list I'd actually argue in favor of unbanning.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Preordain... now that that card is mentioned. I remember something we did last year. It was during the time UR Kiln fiend was having some small successes in Modern. A friend asked me to help him test his newly built kiln fiend deck.. well we tested, and I promptly lost... the day after that I remembered he had Ponder and Preordain in his kiln deck.. I reminded him that the next time we met. He apologize and said he forgot those two cards are modern banned. --- ok, I did not mention this to say that Preordain should be banned forever. I'm also in the camp that it should be unbanned at some point, as it would help give some more power to blue decks in modern.
EDIT: we had been testing other decks that day for hours, the fiend deck was tested in the evening where I was already very tired so did not realize he had banned cards in that deck
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
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UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Personally I would rather have the stronger Ponder than Preordain, but at the same time, I know there's a much better chance for Preordain once people get over their fears of being Rite of Flamed, Blazing Shoaled, or Splinter Twinned BY PREORDAIN.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Just speculating.. WoTC might be testing things with Discovery // Dispersal. As Discovery is basically a preordain that costs 1 more. If Discovery does not break anything, they could consider releasing Preordain from ban...
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
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I think that 2 mana for a cantrip is quite huge in Modern.
UR Murktide
Pauper
RW Monarch
UW Caw-Gate
UBR Affinity
The difference between 1 and 2 mana for a reasonable cantrip is huge.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Discovery // Dispersal = Preordain for two mana.
Thought Erasure = Thoughtseize but for two mana and with an upside rather than downside
Some cards it's a lot harder to balance. Lightning Bolt at two mana (Lightning Strike) is pretty underwhelming, but at 1 mana its super good. The thing with Modern, unlike Standard, is that turn 1 plays are super important, whether it be holding up one mana for removal, Thoughtseize, or cantriping with Serum Visions/ Opt
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
UW should be well positioned, but it see's less SCG play.
Spirits
I'm playing UW for FNM tonight and hopefully my LGS has more RIPs (I only have 2 and would love to play 4).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I doubt it. It's still Modern - a super diverse format. I have decided to run Bogles, which has a good matchup. I'll get back in a few months to give my tournament record vs. Dredge, 0-0.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits
I went 3-1 tonight, my nemesis Tron ruining my evening once again. Cavern of Souls naming Golem + Sundering Titan? F off Tron.
Spirits
RiP is a common sight in our local FNM sideabords. Hmm, but no one feels like it needs to be mainboarded.
I know a Skred Red player who mainboard 2 relics... because those can just be cycled away if not releveant to the match.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I agree with whoever said several pages back that Dredge was quite strong even before the printing of Chill. While the new tech represents a noteworthy upgrade, the low meta share of Dredge prior to its release was baffling to me. Whenever I looked closely at a Dredge list, ran into one across the table, or took one for a spin myself, the deck has always seemed very, very good.
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At our LGS, we have a player who LOVES Dredge. He played it for so many years in many formats. He qualified for his first Pro Tour during Golgari Grave-Troll Dredge in Modern. I will tell you this. After it was banned, he actually didn't play for a long time. Just last week, I saw him back again with Creeping Chill. I trust his knowledge on the deck more than anyone I know.
I also played Dredge during Golgari Grave-Troll because it was too good not to play. When it was banned, I just didn't want to play a crappier version of the deck. I tested it a bit at home and it just seemed mediocre at best. So I ditched it. If I can't play my (slightly better than) Tier 1 deck, why would I want to play a Tier 2 version of it? That's my reasoning at least. I assume that many current Dredge players are not dedicated Dredge players, but playing it more so because it is perceived as a Tier 1 deck or even the "best deck" right now.
I've always been scared of a lot more decks than Dredge, but then I'm not usually playing Midrange or Control. Midrange is the archetype I personally don't enjoy and I've also shied away from Control in order to run proactive strategies instead. The decks I usually play are either faster than Dredge, have a good matchup against Dredge, or do something more unfair than Dredge.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits
Exactly. It's the main reason I shied away from Amulet Titan for many years, despite loving to play Bloom Titan. The nerf usually ends up taking a deck from Tier 1 or Tier 0.5 to Tier 2 or Tier 3. This is the specific reason people don't enjoy it.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)With the right overlay and interface, you could easily get player portraits on the screen next to a dynamic battlefield to keep the personal player touch. Plus you have the super fun graphics that the splashy cards generate. All of this could give a digital experience a visual edge that paper cards don't have (as much as I personally enjoy paper's charm/simplicity). Add to this the impossibility of cheating, no deck check requirements, and an overall streamlined judging and logistical experience, and you have a really solid product. But the real edge here is the Twitch overlay. If you haven't seen it, I suggest you tune into a streamer who uses it and try it out. It's awesome. You can mouse-over any element of the battlefield to see full color and size popups of the cards. It solves the ages old problem of cardfetching on Twitch (clunky, not visually pleasing, complicated, requires knowledge of both Twitch and card names) and makes the game so much more visual. It also feels like you're interacting with the battlefield as an observer, like at an LGS. I feel like all of this is going to make MTG a much more viable esport than it was before. It also suggests we might see a day where we can watch major MTG events in the Arena interface sort of like DOTA or League. Not that any element of this theory is particularly groundbreaking, but I'm just noticing it more this weekend.
I don't think this necessarily affects Modern too much. Modern as a format is more popular than Standard and by all metrics we've seen, it's not even that close. This means Modern/MTGO/paper will still have a niche that digital MTG doesn't have. Similarly, paper events are great for the masses, and there's considerable secondary market pressure to keep paper around. Paper is also just fun. So none of this is to say that paper/Modern are going anywhere. That said, I do believe Arena will ultimately lead to a phase out/reduction in the MTGO experience (which is a pillar of Modern), and an uptick in Standard prominence and popularity (which could detract from Wizards/coverage focus on Modern events). I'm curious to see where all of this goes.
Same here. Probably the deck I'm most scared of in Modern is Burn.
Sure, Dredge can sometimes bring out an army of narco, amalgam and bloodghast turn 3 and I just lose. Creeping Chill adds the burn element to their deck in addition to conflagrate that they already have, making it harder for my Living End deck to get the upper hand. However, game 2 is always fun because it becomes a battle of sideboards. If on Living End, I bring in 3 Crypt Incursion and one Thought Hemorrhage, if on BGx it's 1 Relic, 1 Spellbomb, and 2 Extirpate from the sideboard - have sold all surgicals, so only have Extirpate now.
I await the day that Bloodghast is banned in Modern... just kidding OK.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread