You talk as if topdecking a Terminus when you're dead on board requires any amount of skill.
So what, do you think control just shouldn't be able to win against explosive aggro decks? Like, if Hollow One flops out three H1s on turn 1, UW just shouldn't have any possible top deck that could save them, they should just lose the game on the spot? No man, that's bull*****. If your deck can do a busted thing in the first couple turns of the game, my deck should have a chance to do a busted thing to answer it.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
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He did some testing, shown in other modernnexus articles, and came to the conclusion that Green Sun's Zenith is "not safe" in Modern. I'm not sure where he actually gave specific examples of why it's not safe, but that was his conclusion after testing.
I am sorry but I can't give much credit to someone who tries GSZ and the first conclusion he draws is that Dryad Arbor doesn't factor into whether GSZ should be banned or not
You talk as if topdecking a Terminus when you're dead on board requires any amount of skill.
So what, do you think control just shouldn't be able to win against explosive aggro decks? Like, if Hollow One flops out three H1s on turn 1, UW just shouldn't have any possible top deck that could save them, they should just lose the game on the spot? No man, that's bull*****. If your deck can do a busted thing in the first couple turns of the game, my deck should have a chance to do a busted thing to answer it.
It's called killing them before they find Terminus, or just play Storm. Seriously, if they printed some kind of Terminus hoser, blue control would be unplayable in Modern again. You had 7 years of that, you can suck it up and accept control being good now.
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Surprised the Terminus talk has gone on for long. Deleted a previous post because I thought it was not really an issue.
Anyway, sure my entire board of Living End creatures got terminus'd. It's not the end of the game, I can rebuild and threaten lethal again in a few turns. Just like any board cleaner, terminus can be played around. The counterspells are actually more annoying, and I have 3 Slaughter Games for those game 2.
I think thats the site that said Jace was too risky. Sooooooooooooooo.
Yep. He said it was "broken," but didn't really give a reason why it's "broken."
I know there are other unbans that should be talked about first, but I'm kind of giving some a pass because many people already agree on those. As for Green Sun's Zenith, there's still fear. The one that gets me the most is "Oh, Green Sun's Zenith for Dryad Arbor" as if that beats Humans, KCI, UW RIP Control, or Dredge.
Jace is broken only in Standard, and that was years ago.
Not much to say about GSZ, since I never saw it in action in Modern. In Legacy, I saw it being used a lot in elf decks as additional mana acceleration for Natural Order to bring out a Progenitus.
I replied to Hoogland saying:
"You spoke about Modern decks lasting less than 3 rounds and mocked Modern, then we see a grindfest.
Then you talked about Tron beating a fair midrange deck, then we see Faeries winning Tron. Don't be so hasty judging Modern"
I earned a ban for that friendly and engaging comment, because obviously I can't understand "result based thinking".
Hoogland on the other hand, was requesting Tasigur, Angler, Storm, Tronlands, and at least 10 more bans and a Treasure Cruise unban, without presenting any numbers or data. Also, during every new set, he is requesting a new ban.
He has slowly and steadily become a "ban Tron" meme-caricature by now.
Jeff Hoogland is the emptiest vessel making the loudest noise. He's a sounding board for populist opinions in M:tG to get likes on social media, and therefore presumably more views on his streams.
People start talking about a Tron ban? There he is wanting it banned.
A fire starts about paper modern being expensive? There he is saying reprint everything until it is 10c a card because he doesn't care about all the value he'll lose because he's such a great guy.
Dredge comes into vogue? You'd better believe he's bemoaning the state of the format.
And guess what? He wants twin unbanned as well. Dare go against the hive mind with evidence and reason and blocked you go. I don't know why people take him so seriously.
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In all due honesty, as bustd of a card as Terminus is. The only reason he is being needed being played is because of how carazilly degenerate the agressive decks have become.
Dredge and Bridgesvine are immenselly power and in the case of Dredge immenselly consistent (Not to mention that the deck is prefectly capable of killing you off without the need of much creature action nowadays.)
Terminus is not a problem until the agressive decks of the meta remain so powerful and unstoppable. Hence how UW control has became the only fair control deck that is surviving with a good win-rate, as the ones that play a fairer fair game without abusing of miracle are quickly getting mangled.
So Control/Fair deck players arent supposed to have outs for the ridiculous 2 hollow ones turn 1 plays or the 3 amalgam and 2 bloodghasts turn 2 plays in games where you virtually start with 8 hp and opponent with 32 nowadays ? (Ty Creeping Chill!)
The only reason at least one last fair control deck still stands its thanks to Terminus and how it can deal with the graveyard degeneracy. And even then, to do that, it needs to rely on a clunky mechanic that may or may not work as intended.
Anti-Terminus tech?! The whole god damn format was anti blue for years, then jeskai became a "decent but not good choice". When you can pump out two turn 1 4/4s thats just as low skilled as ripping a topdeck terminus.
I do have to agree, if Ancient Stirrings, dredge and Looting are accepted, Twin should be considered.
I'm not crying for a dredge ban but I do feel that when dredge is good that's often a bad thing for Modern.
There's a ton of graveyard stuff between Dredge, Arclight, Hollow One, Bridgevine---I do wonder if I'd still want to rock all that grave hate regardless. That would make dredge kinda like a scapegoat.
I'm not sure how to feel about GSZ but the card does kind of scare me.
All this graveyard shenanigans really does make me wonder if Twin would be an appropriate choice. Would banning loot really make these grave decks unplayab;e or significantly worse?
I'm in a weird spot where I don't even know what decks are problems for modern and what's fine. I do find complaints against Terminus absurd.
In the end, you beat UW either by racing before a Terminus, putting them within lethal burn prior to a terminus, or, by utilzing something like Blue Moon to force them to play on their turn, instead of yours.
Terminus is as noted, a symptom of how Modern has forced even fair decks, to play unhealthy cards. One needs only look at how warped UWR decks became, with Terminus main deck, and Field of Ruin, to try and compete, to see the lengths people will go to in trying to keep up with the degenerate format.
In the end, i'm living by wrapters post now.
Do Answers Line up with Threats? No? Play Linear.
Do Answers Line up with Threats? Yes? No, but I play Control so I'm going to play Control anyway.
Modern's answers are not sufficient, another line is, there are answers for everything, but your deck cannot answer everything.
Thats Modern.
Im in the pro-control camp here but I don't see how Terminus is a symptom of Modern specifically. The premier Control deck of Legacy and one of the best decks in the format plays it too and is even named after that card mechanic.
How about just accepting that Terminus is one of the best sweepers ever made instead going on again about how you dislike Modern?
The card was always going to get played. The only reason that didn't happen much before was because of having no enablers unlike Legacy. With Jace, the Mind Sculptor you now have at least a tool that can put cards back on top of your deck and with Opt you can at least do some shenanigans on the opponents turn.
If stuff like Preordain gets unbanned or maybe even a new cantrip gets printed the card is only going to get even better and more reliably cast.
There is no turning back. The only world in which Supreme Verdict is a better card is in one that is overrun by Merfolk, Delver and Deaths Shadow decks and that is not very likely unless something stupid like Treasure Cruise 2.0 is printed of course.
Strange...same people crying about unfair stuff in modern, defending unfair terminus as fair because others are unfair. Seems strange for me this logic. Terminus is a busted unfair card, but it is ok for me. Dredge is ok, terminus is ok...nice to play modern
Fair point Galerion. I dont hate Terminus. I dont like that its the best thing going, because I would much rather have Merfolk, Delver, and DS decks, than what we have right now.
In the end though, I just dont like that my broken thing is not allowed, but everyone elses is.
Re: Terminus
As far as I can see, there's only one person in this thread arguing that Terminus is busted in a bad way that requires correction. Then there are about 6+ people explaining why that stance is wrong. It's not remotely a universal position, so we don't need to be too invested in debunking it (even if it is pretty outrageous).
You talk as if topdecking a Terminus when you're dead on board requires any amount of skill.
So what, do you think control just shouldn't be able to win against explosive aggro decks? Like, if Hollow One flops out three H1s on turn 1, UW just shouldn't have any possible top deck that could save them, they should just lose the game on the spot? No man, that's bull*****. If your deck can do a busted thing in the first couple turns of the game, my deck should have a chance to do a busted thing to answer it.
So give us a busted anti-Terminus tech.
The anti-Terminus tech exists. We've all said it before. Vial and Company rebuild boards at instant speed. Bloodghast doesn't need to be recurred into a Terminus. Nor does Flamewake. Mage can stop it from being cast, Wanderer can counter it. Burn can punch in 6 damage off haste creatures and then ignore Terminus to win off spells. Hardened Scales can bulk up creature lands and then wait to activate them. Storm, KCI, and Tron can ignore Terminus entirely. And all creature-based aggro decks can and should slowly deploy creatures to not overextend; Modern threats are powerful enough that all those decks can threaten wins without overcommmiting critters to the board.
Moreover, UW is neither the most played deck, nor is aggro underplayed or hurt by UW. Aggro is rampant. Aggro players are clearly adapting to the matchup and doing just fine. If you are so personally invested against Terminus strategies, I suggest you examine your own gameplay and see what errors you are making that could be adjusted to shore up your Terminus matchup.
EDIT: Was responding to this comment from Zephyr Scarlet:
Quote from Zephyr Scarlet »
So give us a busted anti-Terminus tech.
Ignoring the tangle of logical inconsistencies your comment would lead us down... Even if you were given what you wanted, like a "Until end of turn, cards can't be cast for their miracle cost" for R, it would hardly see any play because it's too narrow to sideboard in any number. Sure, losing to Terminus is annoying; but so is losing to Conflagrate, Meddling Mage, Grapeshot, et al.
If one Terminus wrecks your deck, you're either playing something incredibly linear or not playing around it. You may just have a bad UW Control match-up, and that's part of life. I can sympathize, but that doesn't mean your aggro deck should be able to answer every answer.
I do believe Terminus sets a bit of a new bar for Control and those who want to go under it. Its no longer good enough to be fast, you also have to be able to recover from a board wipe fast.
Essentially, it invalidates any deck that is Tier 2 or lower and trying to win via Combat. A pity...
As someone who spent a good 2-3 months jamming Terminus and then gave it up completely, let's also remember that the card is incredibly swingy and high variance. We don't have Brainstorm, so we're "hoping for the best" to draw one at the right time, or relying 100% on Jace setting you up. They can also just be stranded in your hand and have to be cast for 6 mana. Just some perspective. I have since moved on from the deck BECAUSE of that variance (among other things).
When its good, its good, when it is not, its not. Just like my hollow one opponent who was tired of the fact that his deck created non-games and he didnt have much to say about it.
@cfusionpm: Terminus is definitely swingy. I think it's getting singled out because it's the card in UW Control that caps the "feel bads" for aggro decks that look like they're about to steal a game. But with all the tools to enable it (Opt, Jace, Azcanta) it's not what I'd call high variance unless your expectation is to cast it prior to T4/5.
@iDSurge: I know you're winking to the Twin impact, but are T2+ creature decks really that categorically hurt by Terminus? Swarm decks like Elves or Merfolk get shafted but I'd guess the more midrangish decks that ride fewer threats aren't punished nearly as badly.
@cfusionpm: Terminus is definitely swingy. I think it's getting singled out because it's the card in UW Control that caps the "feel bads" for aggro decks that look like they're about to steal a game. But with all the tools to enable it (Opt, Jace, Azcanta) it's not what I'd call high variance unless your expectation is to cast it prior to T4/5.
LOL, I can name at least a dozen awful, swingy, "feelsbadman"s in Modern that are all worse than Terminus. But I guess it's just in the eye of the beholder. For the one or two times a Terminus sweeps up a dozen elves, they should remember all the other times they aggrostomp opponents on turn 3 or 4.
And it is fairly high variance, because you still don't know where they are in the deck and are just hoping to have one at the top. And god forbid one is in your hand, you're either casting it for 6 or hoping to maybe set it up for the following turn with a Jace (assuming you aren't just dead).
@cfusionpm: Terminus is definitely swingy. I think it's getting singled out because it's the card in UW Control that caps the "feel bads" for aggro decks that look like they're about to steal a game. But with all the tools to enable it (Opt, Jace, Azcanta) it's not what I'd call high variance unless your expectation is to cast it prior to T4/5.
@iDSurge: I know you're winking to the Twin impact, but are T2+ creature decks really that categorically hurt by Terminus? Swarm decks like Elves or Merfolk get shafted but I'd guess the more midrangish decks that ride fewer threats aren't punished nearly as badly.
Any bad creature deck I've played into UW gets literally embarrassed by Terminus into Teferi.
Mid-range? That's a different beast, but what is Mid-ranges issue? Losing to a top deck, that's it's weakness, and Terminus 'please put those lethal goyfs and BBE on the bottom' for W is back breaking.
Again, I don't begrudge Terminus, or UW Control. You fight fire with fire, and I'm never going to look out at Modern and point at Terminus as an issue.
I'm just at my limit with these decks, and this format.
If fair is fair (or unfair) and I literally cannot win before turn 4, in a turn 4 format?
Give it back. I don't care about Timmy losing because he tapped out to slam a fat creature.
If I have to play against Moderns field, they should have to play against Twin.
I dont accept it would not be the same, with Twin around. Thats really all it boils down to. If I have to play against Burning Inquiry and 2 Hollow Ones before I've played a land (assuming I still have lands to play) then everyone should have to play against Twin.
If thats not the case on Monday, I can play Mono U Delver (which is going to be busted once Foil hits and probably eat a ban) or mess around for free in Arena, or maybe just put those Polluted Delta and Scalding Tarn to use finally in Legacy in Grixis Control, at least on MTGO its not more expensive than my car to buy some lands.
In the end, the fact others can play Tron, KCI, Hollow One, G-Affinity, Lantern, and anything in between and I cant play Twin? Utter garbage.
You are aware that Foil is not Modern legal right?
If I have to play against Moderns field, they should have to play against Twin.
Somehow I doubt that "I'm having a bad time, therefore others should have a bad time" is the type of argument Wizards considers while entertaining a banlist update. The numbers are very clear: people love Modern. If you don't, I wish you luck and fun in Pauper and other formats!
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
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I am sorry but I can't give much credit to someone who tries GSZ and the first conclusion he draws is that Dryad Arbor doesn't factor into whether GSZ should be banned or not
So give us a busted anti-Terminus tech.
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Anyway, sure my entire board of Living End creatures got terminus'd. It's not the end of the game, I can rebuild and threaten lethal again in a few turns. Just like any board cleaner, terminus can be played around. The counterspells are actually more annoying, and I have 3 Slaughter Games for those game 2.
Jace is broken only in Standard, and that was years ago.
Not much to say about GSZ, since I never saw it in action in Modern. In Legacy, I saw it being used a lot in elf decks as additional mana acceleration for Natural Order to bring out a Progenitus.
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Want to play a UW control deck in modern, but don't have jace or snaps?
Please come visit us at the Emeria Titan control thread
Jeff Hoogland is the emptiest vessel making the loudest noise. He's a sounding board for populist opinions in M:tG to get likes on social media, and therefore presumably more views on his streams.
People start talking about a Tron ban? There he is wanting it banned.
A fire starts about paper modern being expensive? There he is saying reprint everything until it is 10c a card because he doesn't care about all the value he'll lose because he's such a great guy.
Dredge comes into vogue? You'd better believe he's bemoaning the state of the format.
And guess what? He wants twin unbanned as well. Dare go against the hive mind with evidence and reason and blocked you go. I don't know why people take him so seriously.
Pauper: UR Puzzle Pieces
EDH: UB Phenax, God of Deception UR The Locust God UR Saheeli the Gifted WBG Anafenza, the Foremost
Dredge and Bridgesvine are immenselly power and in the case of Dredge immenselly consistent (Not to mention that the deck is prefectly capable of killing you off without the need of much creature action nowadays.)
Terminus is not a problem until the agressive decks of the meta remain so powerful and unstoppable. Hence how UW control has became the only fair control deck that is surviving with a good win-rate, as the ones that play a fairer fair game without abusing of miracle are quickly getting mangled.
The only reason at least one last fair control deck still stands its thanks to Terminus and how it can deal with the graveyard degeneracy. And even then, to do that, it needs to rely on a clunky mechanic that may or may not work as intended.
Anti-Terminus tech?! The whole god damn format was anti blue for years, then jeskai became a "decent but not good choice". When you can pump out two turn 1 4/4s thats just as low skilled as ripping a topdeck terminus.
I do have to agree, if Ancient Stirrings, dredge and Looting are accepted, Twin should be considered.
I'm not crying for a dredge ban but I do feel that when dredge is good that's often a bad thing for Modern.
There's a ton of graveyard stuff between Dredge, Arclight, Hollow One, Bridgevine---I do wonder if I'd still want to rock all that grave hate regardless. That would make dredge kinda like a scapegoat.
I'm not sure how to feel about GSZ but the card does kind of scare me.
All this graveyard shenanigans really does make me wonder if Twin would be an appropriate choice. Would banning loot really make these grave decks unplayab;e or significantly worse?
I'm in a weird spot where I don't even know what decks are problems for modern and what's fine. I do find complaints against Terminus absurd.
Im in the pro-control camp here but I don't see how Terminus is a symptom of Modern specifically. The premier Control deck of Legacy and one of the best decks in the format plays it too and is even named after that card mechanic.
How about just accepting that Terminus is one of the best sweepers ever made instead going on again about how you dislike Modern?
The card was always going to get played. The only reason that didn't happen much before was because of having no enablers unlike Legacy. With Jace, the Mind Sculptor you now have at least a tool that can put cards back on top of your deck and with Opt you can at least do some shenanigans on the opponents turn.
If stuff like Preordain gets unbanned or maybe even a new cantrip gets printed the card is only going to get even better and more reliably cast.
There is no turning back. The only world in which Supreme Verdict is a better card is in one that is overrun by Merfolk, Delver and Deaths Shadow decks and that is not very likely unless something stupid like Treasure Cruise 2.0 is printed of course.
In the end though, I just dont like that my broken thing is not allowed, but everyone elses is.
Spirits
As far as I can see, there's only one person in this thread arguing that Terminus is busted in a bad way that requires correction. Then there are about 6+ people explaining why that stance is wrong. It's not remotely a universal position, so we don't need to be too invested in debunking it (even if it is pretty outrageous).
The anti-Terminus tech exists. We've all said it before. Vial and Company rebuild boards at instant speed. Bloodghast doesn't need to be recurred into a Terminus. Nor does Flamewake. Mage can stop it from being cast, Wanderer can counter it. Burn can punch in 6 damage off haste creatures and then ignore Terminus to win off spells. Hardened Scales can bulk up creature lands and then wait to activate them. Storm, KCI, and Tron can ignore Terminus entirely. And all creature-based aggro decks can and should slowly deploy creatures to not overextend; Modern threats are powerful enough that all those decks can threaten wins without overcommmiting critters to the board.
Moreover, UW is neither the most played deck, nor is aggro underplayed or hurt by UW. Aggro is rampant. Aggro players are clearly adapting to the matchup and doing just fine. If you are so personally invested against Terminus strategies, I suggest you examine your own gameplay and see what errors you are making that could be adjusted to shore up your Terminus matchup.
Ignoring the tangle of logical inconsistencies your comment would lead us down... Even if you were given what you wanted, like a "Until end of turn, cards can't be cast for their miracle cost" for R, it would hardly see any play because it's too narrow to sideboard in any number. Sure, losing to Terminus is annoying; but so is losing to Conflagrate, Meddling Mage, Grapeshot, et al.
If one Terminus wrecks your deck, you're either playing something incredibly linear or not playing around it. You may just have a bad UW Control match-up, and that's part of life. I can sympathize, but that doesn't mean your aggro deck should be able to answer every answer.
Essentially, it invalidates any deck that is Tier 2 or lower and trying to win via Combat. A pity...
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
/shrug
Spirits
@iDSurge: I know you're winking to the Twin impact, but are T2+ creature decks really that categorically hurt by Terminus? Swarm decks like Elves or Merfolk get shafted but I'd guess the more midrangish decks that ride fewer threats aren't punished nearly as badly.
LOL, I can name at least a dozen awful, swingy, "feelsbadman"s in Modern that are all worse than Terminus. But I guess it's just in the eye of the beholder. For the one or two times a Terminus sweeps up a dozen elves, they should remember all the other times they aggrostomp opponents on turn 3 or 4.
And it is fairly high variance, because you still don't know where they are in the deck and are just hoping to have one at the top. And god forbid one is in your hand, you're either casting it for 6 or hoping to maybe set it up for the following turn with a Jace (assuming you aren't just dead).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Any bad creature deck I've played into UW gets literally embarrassed by Terminus into Teferi.
Mid-range? That's a different beast, but what is Mid-ranges issue? Losing to a top deck, that's it's weakness, and Terminus 'please put those lethal goyfs and BBE on the bottom' for W is back breaking.
Again, I don't begrudge Terminus, or UW Control. You fight fire with fire, and I'm never going to look out at Modern and point at Terminus as an issue.
I'm just at my limit with these decks, and this format.
If fair is fair (or unfair) and I literally cannot win before turn 4, in a turn 4 format?
Give it back. I don't care about Timmy losing because he tapped out to slam a fat creature.
If I have to play against Moderns field, they should have to play against Twin.
Spirits
You are aware that Foil is not Modern legal right?
RG BBE Ponza
UX Eldrazi Tron
UR Jace Breach
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Counter-Cat
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Spirits
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UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
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BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW