There's a difference between "Good" and "Tier 1." Where are the 200+ pages of complaints that White isn't dominating the format?? Because it's been a looooong time since it had more of an impact on the Format, but no, Blue is the true victim here!
Sure UW or UWx is doing fine these days...but is UW Control the only deck that is blue that is allowed to be good in Modern? UR is basically Storm combo which is just okay these days (and is unlikely to ever get better WOTC hates it), UG is infect occasionally sneaking through, and UB basically doesn't exist in Modern. So sure its good to be UW Control but try anything else in Blue and its not so grand.
Is that resolved by adding another Ux counterspell to the mix though? Likely not. UW control has started performing well because it has U counterspells and NOW additional tools and finishers in the U, W, and UW spectrum to win games.
All these Ux variants have access to the same counter magic as UW control, so why are they not performing at the same level as UW control? If the primary variable that's different is the non-counter magic tools and finishers, why would you then ask for a different/new counter magic spell to your Ux variant?
ATM blue has two major problems in the format the first is not having Counterspell legal and needing to play other two mana counters that don't always do something. The second is Cavern of Souls making all the tribal decks way harder to deal with and Field can just be too slow.
Sure UW or UWx is doing fine these days...but is UW Control the only deck that is blue that is allowed to be good in Modern? UR is basically Storm combo which is just okay these days (and is unlikely to ever get better WOTC hates it), UG is infect occasionally sneaking through, and UB basically doesn't exist in Modern. So sure its good to be UW Control but try anything else in Blue and its not so grand.
Is that resolved by adding another Ux counterspell to the mix though? Likely not. UW control has started performing well because it has U counterspells and NOW additional tools and finishers in the U, W, and UW spectrum to win games.
All these Ux variants have access to the same counter magic as UW control, so why are they not performing at the same level as UW control? If the primary variable that's different is the non-counter magic tools and finishers, why would you then ask for a different/new counter magic spell to your Ux variant?
Well sure but for a thought experiment is the only thing holding BGx Down not having two cmc unconditional removal? Or is it Faithless Looting Backed Recursion Aggro Decks, Tribal Vial Decks, Ancient Stirrings Backed Colorless Decks and Superior Mardu Pyromancer Midrange Decks keeping it down. Yes this new removal helps aginast UW Control and Tron but is it really going to help against the rest of the format?
There's a difference between "Good" and "Tier 1." Where are the 200+ pages of complaints that White isn't dominating the format?? Because it's been a looooong time since it had more of an impact on the Format, but no, Blue is the true victim here!
Who is saying Blue is the victim? You are taking a position a few of us hold, and pushing it to hyperbolic levels.
Blue is not oppressed, nor was it oppressive in Modern. This is fact, we have all been over this.
Even UR is 'good'.
I mean look at your other post. You think Twin would warp Modern?
There's a difference between "Good" and "Tier 1." Where are the 200+ pages of complaints that White isn't dominating the format?? Because it's been a looooong time since it had more of an impact on the Format, but no, Blue is the true victim here!
Because white didn't have a deck banned out of existence so that "similar" and "supplanted" decks could thrive with success that never actually realized.
We would be having a very different conversation if the deck simply wasn't good due to metagame shifts (like Jund these days), compared to R&D actively destroying a deck in order to "promote" "similar" decks that have yet to show themselves 3 years later.
I don't think anyone is claiming White should be dominant. But White is weak at least mainboard unless the card is a Human be it Walker or Creature. When is the last time it got something good that wasn't a Human?
There's a difference between "Good" and "Tier 1." Where are the 200+ pages of complaints that White isn't dominating the format?? Because it's been a looooong time since it had more of an impact on the Format, but no, Blue is the true victim here!
Who is saying Blue is the victim? You are taking a position a few of us hold, and pushing it to hyperbolic levels.
Blue is not oppressed, nor was it oppressive in Modern. This is fact, we have all been over this.
Even UR is 'good'.
Okay, I'll tone back the hyperbole. Too much Reddit exposure, where that kind of hyperbole was simply the opinions of many for a long time.
I mean look at your other post. You think Twin would warp Modern?
This is the big distinction: I think it would warp Modern, while I'm sure many of you think it would fix Modern. What some see as a glitch in the machine, I see as one of its greatest features.
Well sure but for a thought experiment is the only thing holding BGx Down not having two cmc unconditional removal? Or is it Faithless Looting Backed Recursion Aggro Decks, Tribal Vial Decks, Ancient Stirrings Backed Colorless Decks and Superior Mardu Pyromancer Midrange Decks keeping it down. Yes this new removal helps aginast UW Control and Tron but is it really going to help against the rest of the format?
I don't necessarily disagree with you. BGx certainly needs something more than another variation on board removal to become a true tournament competitor. However, the original arguments or line of thinking that, because BGx got another removal variant, Ux variants should get another counterspell variant that's better than everything they currently have, is a preposterous idea. I'm not saying @autumntwilight was necessarily making that argument, but just placing my counterpoints in context.
Regardless of all that, I think a primary element that people continual forget, or willfully ignore, is that Modern has a somewhat cyclical meta. One season, a deck pops up and dominates, it's then beaten back by new decks or cards, and then some other decks come and pray on those decks, then another dominant deck pops up because it prays on those decks, so on and so forth. The ultimate result is, you're pet deck that you've loved for however many months or years isn't necessarily going to be great, good, or even playable in subsequent months or years because the meta continually shifts based on new cards entering the pool and the discovery of new/different interactions. Thus, you're not always going to have the exact card you want to answer those new interactions or threats, but have to wait on Wizards to develop and print something or ban, so your deck archetype can once again rise to the top of the heap.
I don't think any of us think Twin will "fix" Modern, but it will help promote interactive gameplay over others while allowing people to play powerful tempo strategies. Let's also not forget that Burn, Infect, Affinity, and Tron were all T1 staples of a format with Twin in it. And that was when power levels were considerably lower than they are now (and those decks all supposedly had really poor Twin matchups). Twin would not break Modern. It would be one powerful deck among many other powerful decks.
Only Tron remains although Hardened Scales and KCI could be viewed as evolution of Affinity.
Twin would be interesting but come SFM cannot even get off the ban list so I doubt Twin does anytime soon. Maybe next year when WOTC wants to spice things up and sell another Modern Set. But its not coming anytime soon for any standard set no Kor on Ravnica and Twin doesn't really fit Rakdos or Gruul.
There's a difference between "Good" and "Tier 1." Where are the 200+ pages of complaints that White isn't dominating the format?? Because it's been a looooong time since it had more of an impact on the Format, but no, Blue is the true victim here!
Who is saying Blue is the victim? You are taking a position a few of us hold, and pushing it to hyperbolic levels.
Blue is not oppressed, nor was it oppressive in Modern. This is fact, we have all been over this.
Even UR is 'good'.
Okay, I'll tone back the hyperbole. Too much Reddit exposure, where that kind of hyperbole was simply the opinions of many for a long time.
I mean look at your other post. You think Twin would warp Modern?
This is the big distinction: I think it would warp Modern, while I'm sure many of you think it would fix Modern. What some see as a glitch in the machine, I see as one of its greatest features.
What you fear (I believe) is already a thing. The random jank that Twin DID beat up on, I can still beat up on with UR Breach, or UR Thing Blue Moon. People just don't see Blue Moon as 'real' and so they discount it, but make no mistake, the deck beats janky bad decks that cannot interact on the stack.
Trophy is about to 'fix' Modern as you call it anyway. It's going to get grindy soon and some will enjoy it, some will not.
Just like when Jace and BBE came back, people are desperately looking to play BGx and Uxx.
Twin would not break Modern. It would be one powerful deck among many other powerful decks.
It would drive out entirely all of the interesting "unfair" decks I enjoy playing with, as it would be the best "unfair" deck. Why play Quest Combo or Belcher EVER if Twin exists? It's the same reason I'm so very glad that Alpine Moon, Damping Sphere, and now Trophy are a thing; when I first started playing Modern with Skred Red, I got to a point where I realized there was no reason to ever play my deck in a Competitive environment, because the Tron and Valakut matchups were just SO bad. So I stopped playing it. I'd like to avoid that same outcome with many janky combo decks I enjoy playing.
What you fear (I believe) is already a thing. The random jank that Twin DID beat up on, I can still beat up on with UR Breach, or UR Thing Blue Moon. People just don't see Blue Moon as 'real' and so they discount it, but make no mistake, the deck beats janky bad decks that cannot interact on the stack.
Trophy is about to 'fix' Modern as you call it anyway. It's going to get grindy soon and some will enjoy it, some will not.
Just like when Jace and BBE came back, people are desperately looking to play BGx and Uxx.
Breach is substantially less powerful than Twin; I wouldn't mind seeing something in-between the two get printed, though. Thing Blue Moon and Tempo Wizards are both decent "fair" versions of Twin, though.
My combo decks don't care what your removal is; clock me, counter me, or suffer the consequences! Seriously, though, I would love Modern to slow down just a tad; every single round being Ships in the Night is never a good feeling for a competitive game. I'm actually happy U/W is a big thing right now.
My combo decks don't care what your removal is; clock me, counter me, or suffer the consequences! Seriously, though, I would love Modern to slow down just a tad; every single round being Ships in the Night is never a good feeling for a competitive game. I'm actually happy U/W is a big thing right now.
You know what slows down a format? Forcing people to run interaction, hold up mana for that interaction, or risk losing on the spot. I mean, otherwise, what punishment do people have for running out their hands as quickly as possible, ignoring what the opponent does, blanking their interaction, and goldfishing a win as fast as possible?
My combo decks don't care what your removal is; clock me, counter me, or suffer the consequences! Seriously, though, I would love Modern to slow down just a tad; every single round being Ships in the Night is never a good feeling for a competitive game. I'm actually happy U/W is a big thing right now.
You know what slows down a format? Forcing people to run interaction, hold up mana for that interaction, or risk losing on the spot. I mean, otherwise, what punishment do people have for running out their hands as quickly as possible, ignoring what the opponent does, blanking their interaction, and goldfishing a win as fast as possible?
I think this is the biggest reason for UW's success. Jund wasnt able to keep on top of all the goldfish, it just wasnt flexible enough, and so what happens is UW shows up, can answer all creatures with W, can answer anything else with Delve UU, and then just wins after stripping all the greedy mana bases via FoR, GQ, and Path, by just ticking up a Walker that lets them keep up (surprise) UU + Delve.
Most decks cannot handle counter magic, because you either bring some yourself, or you run discard which isnt big in the meta currently.
Most decks cannot handle counter magic, because you either bring some yourself, or you run discard which isnt big in the meta currently.
Yeah, I tried running a discard-based UB tempo/control deck the past few FNM/MNMs and wow that was a bad idea. Most decks are either redundant enough that taking a card does nothing, or they are actively trying to abuse their own graveyard anyway.
I tend to agree with Jim Davis...Counters and Discard do not play well together, ie they are highly redundant without even going into Snapcaster vs Delve.
I tend to agree with Jim Davis...Counters and Discard do not play well together, ie they are highly redundant without even going into Snapcaster vs Delve.
I disagree. I think overloading on one or the other makes little sense, but playing Thoughtseize in UB Control is definitely underrepresented. I think it's a little too much life loss for a deck like Grixis to run though. Being able to get full information and strip their important card, and then hold up a counter for their other relevant card is really good. If this theorem held, decks like Grixis Control in Legacy wouldn't both play discard and counters, but it does, and it plays quite well. Personally, I play 3 Thoughtseize in my UB Control deck (that I won a 6 round + 3 top 8 matches PPTQ with) that has been performing quite well over the past month since I started playing it. Being able to grab Karn, KCI, Through the Breach, CoCo, etc. for 1 mana is quite nice. I view them as redundant pieces for the most part. IMHO Thoughtseize > Logic Knot. I'd rather my early interaction be Thoughtseize rather than Knot.
Spell-Version Snapcaster just spoiled at UU with Surveil 2.
I think Blue is doing just fine, and you guys REALLY need to go play Pauper if this isn't enough for you. Every complaint in this Thread is absolutely addressed by moving to a different format.
I'd play Legacy or Vintage if there were actual events near me and I could afford to without seriously hindering every other part of my life financially. The reserve list is stupid. You'd probably have fewer people wanting stronger countermagic and stack manipulation in Modern if they could play the formats they wanted.
I love Modern how it is as it allows me to play cool decks like Taking Turns, but I love stack manipulation (I think instants and stack manipulation are the best part of Magic along with the wide diversity of strategies possible). I want all strategies viable in Modern with less emphasis on creatures and combat.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:UB Taking Turns Modern:URW Madcap Experiment Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
Spell-Version Snapcaster just spoiled at UU with Surveil 2.
I think Blue is doing just fine, and you guys REALLY need to go play Pauper if this isn't enough for you. Every complaint in this Thread is absolutely addressed by moving to a different format.
I'd play Legacy or Vintage if there were actual events near me and I could afford to without seriously hindering every other part of my life financially. The reserve list is stupid. You'd probably have fewer people wanting stronger countermagic and stack manipulation in Modern if they could play the formats they wanted.
I love Modern how it is as it allows me to play cool decks like Taking Turns, but I love stack manipulation (I think instants and stack manipulation are the best part of Magic along with the wide diversity of strategies possible). I want all strategies viable in Modern with less emphasis on creatures and combat.
I would like it if Modern ever got color hate counters like Red Elemental Blast or more colorless mana symbol counters like Warping Wail. Heck, it would be nice if the color white got more counterspells to complement Mana Tithe.
Is that resolved by adding another Ux counterspell to the mix though? Likely not. UW control has started performing well because it has U counterspells and NOW additional tools and finishers in the U, W, and UW spectrum to win games.
All these Ux variants have access to the same counter magic as UW control, so why are they not performing at the same level as UW control? If the primary variable that's different is the non-counter magic tools and finishers, why would you then ask for a different/new counter magic spell to your Ux variant?
Well sure but for a thought experiment is the only thing holding BGx Down not having two cmc unconditional removal? Or is it Faithless Looting Backed Recursion Aggro Decks, Tribal Vial Decks, Ancient Stirrings Backed Colorless Decks and Superior Mardu Pyromancer Midrange Decks keeping it down. Yes this new removal helps aginast UW Control and Tron but is it really going to help against the rest of the format?
Who is saying Blue is the victim? You are taking a position a few of us hold, and pushing it to hyperbolic levels.
Blue is not oppressed, nor was it oppressive in Modern. This is fact, we have all been over this.
Even UR is 'good'.
I mean look at your other post. You think Twin would warp Modern?
Spirits
We would be having a very different conversation if the deck simply wasn't good due to metagame shifts (like Jund these days), compared to R&D actively destroying a deck in order to "promote" "similar" decks that have yet to show themselves 3 years later.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This is equivalent to saying: "Jund decks are doing fine in Modern because Mardu Pyromancer is fine and great to play."
(This is also disregarding Assassin's Trophy, a card that shows us how to help a deck by giving it a great versatile answer tool).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Okay, I'll tone back the hyperbole. Too much Reddit exposure, where that kind of hyperbole was simply the opinions of many for a long time.
This is the big distinction: I think it would warp Modern, while I'm sure many of you think it would fix Modern. What some see as a glitch in the machine, I see as one of its greatest features.
I don't necessarily disagree with you. BGx certainly needs something more than another variation on board removal to become a true tournament competitor. However, the original arguments or line of thinking that, because BGx got another removal variant, Ux variants should get another counterspell variant that's better than everything they currently have, is a preposterous idea. I'm not saying @autumntwilight was necessarily making that argument, but just placing my counterpoints in context.
Regardless of all that, I think a primary element that people continual forget, or willfully ignore, is that Modern has a somewhat cyclical meta. One season, a deck pops up and dominates, it's then beaten back by new decks or cards, and then some other decks come and pray on those decks, then another dominant deck pops up because it prays on those decks, so on and so forth. The ultimate result is, you're pet deck that you've loved for however many months or years isn't necessarily going to be great, good, or even playable in subsequent months or years because the meta continually shifts based on new cards entering the pool and the discovery of new/different interactions. Thus, you're not always going to have the exact card you want to answer those new interactions or threats, but have to wait on Wizards to develop and print something or ban, so your deck archetype can once again rise to the top of the heap.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Twin would be interesting but come SFM cannot even get off the ban list so I doubt Twin does anytime soon. Maybe next year when WOTC wants to spice things up and sell another Modern Set. But its not coming anytime soon for any standard set no Kor on Ravnica and Twin doesn't really fit Rakdos or Gruul.
What you fear (I believe) is already a thing. The random jank that Twin DID beat up on, I can still beat up on with UR Breach, or UR Thing Blue Moon. People just don't see Blue Moon as 'real' and so they discount it, but make no mistake, the deck beats janky bad decks that cannot interact on the stack.
Trophy is about to 'fix' Modern as you call it anyway. It's going to get grindy soon and some will enjoy it, some will not.
Just like when Jace and BBE came back, people are desperately looking to play BGx and Uxx.
Spirits
It would drive out entirely all of the interesting "unfair" decks I enjoy playing with, as it would be the best "unfair" deck. Why play Quest Combo or Belcher EVER if Twin exists? It's the same reason I'm so very glad that Alpine Moon, Damping Sphere, and now Trophy are a thing; when I first started playing Modern with Skred Red, I got to a point where I realized there was no reason to ever play my deck in a Competitive environment, because the Tron and Valakut matchups were just SO bad. So I stopped playing it. I'd like to avoid that same outcome with many janky combo decks I enjoy playing.
Breach is substantially less powerful than Twin; I wouldn't mind seeing something in-between the two get printed, though. Thing Blue Moon and Tempo Wizards are both decent "fair" versions of Twin, though.
My combo decks don't care what your removal is; clock me, counter me, or suffer the consequences! Seriously, though, I would love Modern to slow down just a tad; every single round being Ships in the Night is never a good feeling for a competitive game. I'm actually happy U/W is a big thing right now.
You know what slows down a format? Forcing people to run interaction, hold up mana for that interaction, or risk losing on the spot. I mean, otherwise, what punishment do people have for running out their hands as quickly as possible, ignoring what the opponent does, blanking their interaction, and goldfishing a win as fast as possible?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I think this is the biggest reason for UW's success. Jund wasnt able to keep on top of all the goldfish, it just wasnt flexible enough, and so what happens is UW shows up, can answer all creatures with W, can answer anything else with Delve UU, and then just wins after stripping all the greedy mana bases via FoR, GQ, and Path, by just ticking up a Walker that lets them keep up (surprise) UU + Delve.
Most decks cannot handle counter magic, because you either bring some yourself, or you run discard which isnt big in the meta currently.
Spirits
Yeah, I tried running a discard-based UB tempo/control deck the past few FNM/MNMs and wow that was a bad idea. Most decks are either redundant enough that taking a card does nothing, or they are actively trying to abuse their own graveyard anyway.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I disagree. I think overloading on one or the other makes little sense, but playing Thoughtseize in UB Control is definitely underrepresented. I think it's a little too much life loss for a deck like Grixis to run though. Being able to get full information and strip their important card, and then hold up a counter for their other relevant card is really good. If this theorem held, decks like Grixis Control in Legacy wouldn't both play discard and counters, but it does, and it plays quite well. Personally, I play 3 Thoughtseize in my UB Control deck (that I won a 6 round + 3 top 8 matches PPTQ with) that has been performing quite well over the past month since I started playing it. Being able to grab Karn, KCI, Through the Breach, CoCo, etc. for 1 mana is quite nice. I view them as redundant pieces for the most part. IMHO Thoughtseize > Logic Knot. I'd rather my early interaction be Thoughtseize rather than Knot.
I'd play Legacy or Vintage if there were actual events near me and I could afford to without seriously hindering every other part of my life financially. The reserve list is stupid. You'd probably have fewer people wanting stronger countermagic and stack manipulation in Modern if they could play the formats they wanted.
I love Modern how it is as it allows me to play cool decks like Taking Turns, but I love stack manipulation (I think instants and stack manipulation are the best part of Magic along with the wide diversity of strategies possible). I want all strategies viable in Modern with less emphasis on creatures and combat.
Modern: URW Madcap Experiment
Pauper: MonoU Tempo Delver
My EDH Commanders:
Aminatou, The Fateshifter UBW
Azami, Lady of Scrolls U
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed B
Edric, Spymaster of Trest UG
Glissa, the Traitor BG
Arcum Dagsson U
I would like it if Modern ever got color hate counters like Red Elemental Blast or more colorless mana symbol counters like Warping Wail. Heck, it would be nice if the color white got more counterspells to complement Mana Tithe.
I mean, sure, that era ended pretty quickly, but it still happened.
Fair enough, I'm referring more to a deck style, and in looking at the past Top 8's, even that period was not 'all blue'.
Spirits