Well I am no expert but not really in Modern. To my mind any counter with such limited upside that cost 3 CMC just aint worth it. 2 CMC or less is where its at.
@CFP: You have to understand that Teferi won't and can't let them print any 2 cmc counterspell. Even Deprive would be too good at this point in Standard.
Let's wait for another year, until he rotates out and see what happens. For now, we got Jace, Teferi, Opt, Search, Field and so many other playable blue control cards. It seems crazy to complain about blue, when it received so many tools!
I actually think post-Assassin Trophy era that you want to play 0-1 Search for Azcanta. The primary MU's you'd ideally want this card now have access to an easy answer (whether it be Field or other options). It's all ready borderline too slow against the aggro decks in the format and against some combo decks it's difficult to spend 4 mana for shields down (think Ad Naus) or is just too slow there (re: Grishoal/etc.). Search really cemented Ux control being favored against the various Bx based mid-range decks, but that's no longer the case. It's still going to be a powerhouse against Mardu, but it's going to be an underwhelming card in a large amount of MU's. I'd rather play more Hieroglyphic Illumination / insert non-permanent CA card (I think Chemister's Insight has a good spot as a 1-of in a lot of control decks, especially UB decks with Thought Scour).
The real reason why UW is where it is now is because of Field and Teferi/Jace/Terminus. I was a huge champion of bringing Opt into Modern, but it is a very very minor upgrade over current options, but let's not kid ourselves that it had a big effect. Going from SV to Preordain/Ponder there you have an argument, but not with Opt. The point I'm trying to make is without either Field or Teferi, UW is not in the spot it is now. Take away the other cards, and UW is still Tier 1 (even Jace imho). Teferi is just such a good card, but since it is multi-color it pigeon-holes you. Is it too much to ask for on-par control cards in UB and UR? Why does BG always get the best multi-color answers? It just seems odd to me that the I/S colors have *****ty I/S and color pairings like RW, GR, and BR have much better options.
Because WOTC's market research says that people prefer playing with creatures than spells. Interacting with the stack is the most niche appeal that some players have with the game. The majority of players would prefer permanents entering play, particularly creatures and planeswalkers. If anything, WOTC just needs to nuke counterspells once and for all and give blue more traditional removal.
Because WOTC's market research says that people prefer playing with creatures than spells. Interacting with the stack is the most niche appeal that some players have with the game. The majority of players would prefer permanents entering play, particularly creatures and planeswalkers. If anything, WOTC just needs to nuke counterspells once and for all and give blue more traditional removal.
Do you have a link to this research, because it doesnt make much sense. Casting spells is just as integral as a part of the game as anything else. Maybe what you mean to say is that having stack wars like we see in vintage is pretty niche.
"Spell Slinging" is a Wizard's approved deck theme and theres a lot of ways to design cards around this theme. Take for example Commander 2015's Seize Control Mizzix of the Izmagnus deck. It has a lot of cool mechanics that revolve around casting spells and not just fighting for board control. The major point I'm trying to make is that the idea that people just want to play with creatures is not only false, but a bad way to look at the game form a design standpoint. Playing mid-rangey style games where creatures face off is jut as small as a niche as stack wars style decks, and on top of it can lead to really bland and boring play patters that actually come down to luck rather than skill.
Yeah, a mechanic like storm is pushed to its limits in a format like Modern, but I'd even go far to say that a card like Grapeshot could easily be reprinted in a Standard set if they go about it correctly. Really, how scary is a card like Grapeshot without enablers like Pyretic Ritual and Past in Flames?
Because WOTC's market research says that people prefer playing with creatures than spells. Interacting with the stack is the most niche appeal that some players have with the game. The majority of players would prefer permanents entering play, particularly creatures and planeswalkers. If anything, WOTC just needs to nuke counterspells once and for all and give blue more traditional removal.
do you have a source? otherwise that is some pretty baseless speculation. evidence of which is in the fact that wizards has continually gone through lengths to make sure permission spells are relevant in standard and limited formats; and they have been.
it doesnt have to be all or nothing, and based on wizards actions they know that.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Maro has stated as much. It's referenced on Blogatog. The issue is removal also rated poorly. Answers in general rate poorly because people want to curve out and 'do their thing'.
The game was at its worst when they listened to this feedback, and they know it.
Like my final opponent last night kept typing zzzzz into chat while I kept him off anything relevant and killed him with Savage Snapcaster Beats (thx tronix) well guess what? Play a deck that can do more than try and ramp to Tooth and Nail, maybe you won't get poked for 10 turns till you die.
Because WOTC's market research says that people prefer playing with creatures than spells. Interacting with the stack is the most niche appeal that some players have with the game. The majority of players would prefer permanents entering play, particularly creatures and planeswalkers. If anything, WOTC just needs to nuke counterspells once and for all and give blue more traditional removal.
Was this the same market research that led them to create a Standard format that was so unpopular that it necessitated more frequent bannings than at any other time in the game's history, including Urza's Saga block?
They also forgot that the whole reason Magic is a god tier game is how well it supports, facilitates, and encourages different styles of play in its innate design
@CFP: You have to understand that Teferi won't and can't let them print any 2 cmc counterspell. Even Deprive would be too good at this point in Standard.
This is just as lame of an excuse for 2cmc counters as saying Stoneforge Mystic can't be unbanned because it stifles Equipment design. You can make that argument all day, but what's the excuse for terrible counters and equipment for the last 10 years?
Removal = cheap with "downside"
Counters = expensive with "upside"
Why does this have to be the design template?
Teferi is completely irrelevant to the design of counterspells. They simply do not (and will not) make cheap counters with downside (for whatever reason).
Well, as long as Teferi is legal, it is not irrelevant. Teferi and 2 cmc counterspell can not exist in the same set. One has to understand that there are always going to be design limitations, when you actually design cards. For example, we can't also have fetchlands and shocklands together in the same Standard set.
The game is primarily being designed for draft and standard reasons; not for Modern ones. We all have to understand this.
It's not a bug; it is a feature. Modern is the third more popular format in their eyes.
That's why they do something like give a "downside" that is really bad in Standard, and mostly irrelevant in Modern/Legacy/etc.
There is no excuse for not making cheap counters with downside other than simply not wanting to. How many versions of Cancel are they going to print before realizing that none of them see play in anything outside of Standard? Or do they simply not care?
Again, meanwhile power creep gives us the most busted and powerful removal spell ever printed, and not too long after printing one of the most influential removal spells since Path to Exile. So it's not like they aren't thinking of eternal formats.
EDIT: I reaaaaallllllly want to emphasize this. Control has become viable in modern by a different means - a new ability to turn the corner. If the problem was that removing twin made the primary wincon options for controlling decks far worse, then the solution is not giving modern counterspell. The solution is better wincons.
The nice thing about making a UR counter+land is that UW can't play it without going Jeskai. Going Jeskai means less consistency, more self-damage from fetches/shocks, fewer Field of Ruins, and more cuts for red cards, etc etc. The card would have been a perfect opportunity to give something to UR tempo decks (and Grixis), but instead we get yet another Cancel with meaningless upside. Massive swing and a miss.
EDIT: I reaaaaallllllly want to emphasize this. Control has become viable in modern by a different means - a new ability to turn the corner. If the problem was that removing twin made the primary wincon options for controlling decks far worse, then the solution is not giving modern counterspell. The solution is better wincons.
I'm kind of missing the point on this one. Yes, wincon's matter. UW certainly has all it needs to be successful, as does imo UWR while people who apparently are pro's disagree or agree to disagree on if UWR is 'good'.
None of that changes if we could have had a UR counterspell at 2, instead of 3. Wizards is simply lazy.
Counters at 3 are apparently 'good enough' in Standard to see play. So is it really that they are afraid of Counters? They have 3 or 4 in every Standard block!
Nah, they just havent been paying attention to Modern (after all, legacy doesnt need a 2cmc Counter, they only play FREE counters down in Legacy land) so thats the probable issue.
What question or problem, is being answered by a 2 mana Counter? Not Vintage, not Pauper, not Legacy, and not Standard.
Its a niche of a niche at this point, and thats likely why we have not seen one yet.
I am really going to resume this conversation when Teferi rotates out. It's meaningless up to that point.
Why? Forcing someone into a clunky 3 colors in Standard should be "downside" enough. Giving your opponent a land is also pretty bad. Teferi is also not an excuse for the last decade "Cancel+upside" or the figurative and literal "push" of extremely good removal.
This is an overall philosophical choice they are making in design. It has nothing to do with any specific card. They simply do not want counterspells at or under 2cmc, downside be damned.
I actually think post-Assassin Trophy era that you want to play 0-1 Search for Azcanta. The primary MU's you'd ideally want this card now have access to an easy answer (whether it be Field or other options). It's all ready borderline too slow against the aggro decks in the format and against some combo decks it's difficult to spend 4 mana for shields down (think Ad Naus) or is just too slow there (re: Grishoal/etc.). Search really cemented Ux control being favored against the various Bx based mid-range decks, but that's no longer the case. It's still going to be a powerhouse against Mardu, but it's going to be an underwhelming card in a large amount of MU's. I'd rather play more Hieroglyphic Illumination / insert non-permanent CA card (I think Chemister's Insight has a good spot as a 1-of in a lot of control decks, especially UB decks with Thought Scour).
The real reason why UW is where it is now is because of Field and Teferi/Jace/Terminus. I was a huge champion of bringing Opt into Modern, but it is a very very minor upgrade over current options, but let's not kid ourselves that it had a big effect. Going from SV to Preordain/Ponder there you have an argument, but not with Opt. The point I'm trying to make is without either Field or Teferi, UW is not in the spot it is now. Take away the other cards, and UW is still Tier 1 (even Jace imho). Teferi is just such a good card, but since it is multi-color it pigeon-holes you. Is it too much to ask for on-par control cards in UB and UR? Why does BG always get the best multi-color answers? It just seems odd to me that the I/S colors have *****ty I/S and color pairings like RW, GR, and BR have much better options.
I'm not so sure this is true. You need around 2-3 to "tax" their Assassin's Trophies. Also I noticed something when I played Jeskai for a short time. I used to wonder why none of my opponents were siding out Search for Azcanta against my super quick Combo deck. They need to keep that card in. It serves as their win-con later on and guarantees that they win the long game. There are plenty of other cards to side out. I used to think that the card should be sided out against some decks, but now I truly believe that I have yet to play a matchup where Search for Azcanta should be on the bench. If anything, it helps you scry to answers on turns 3, 4, and 5.
Assassin's Trophy? Sure, give me a land. Sooner of later, another Search will be in play unless you kill me quickly, Mr. GBx.
*Also, UG (Simic) hasn't gotten a good card since Mystic Snake, lol. (I'm not a Simic fan; just an observation.)
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
What they are saying by not printing "downside" 1-2cmc counters for Modern is simply: "We do not want counters to be good in Modern."
When coupled with the massive upgrade in removal spells at 1-2cmc while pushing NWO design, they are saying: "We want to make creature ETBs better, so that when someone kills it, you don't feel bad."
They backed off that already though. They know they make mistakes in that regard from BfZ to what...Eldritch Moon? Also, Counterspell isnt even a top 50 played card in Legacy. Its simply not that good. Its a Pauper card.
Would it see play in Modern? Yep, but I'm not sure even a play set would make it in, other then perhaps a Tempo Delver deck. GDS wouldnt play it, I doubt UWR plays the set, MAYBE UW does, but thats it.
What they are saying by not printing "downside" 1-2cmc counters for Modern is simply: "We do not want counters to be good in Modern."
I think the comment was more, the only format that will benefit from a 2CMC counter is Modern, because every other eternal format already has better options and Standard doesn't need a 2CMC counter. By introducing a 2CMC counter to Standard, so that it can flow in to Modern, would more than likely disrupt Standard significantly and result in a ban, further damaging the image of Standard. If they unban already existing counters so Modern can use them, how does that impact Modern?
Modern already has a plethora of counters and ways to disrupt the stack. Many people dislike stack interaction. And, as we're now seeing, Ux has a very competitively viable build, so how much would adding another, even lower CMC, counter affect the power level of Ux builds?
I think the logical conclusion has to be that 2CMC counter would provide too much power to the Ux decks and further elevate their Top8/16/32 showings. Which then cascades into "slower" magic, with resulting timed-out matches, and logistics issues because more people are playing Ux decks with the powerful 2CMC counters and other decks drop in meta share because they can't get anything successfully through the stack bottle neck.
Its certainly a concern. The major issue right now to me, is that the 'cycle' is broken. There is not enough discard going on, to disrupt the counter potential that even is in the format.
What they are saying by not printing "downside" 1-2cmc counters for Modern is simply: "We do not want counters to be good in Modern."
I think the comment was more, the only format that will benefit from a 2CMC counter is Modern, because every other eternal format already has better options and Standard doesn't need a 2CMC counter. By introducing a 2CMC counter to Standard, so that it can flow in to Modern, would more than likely disrupt Standard significantly and result in a ban, further damaging the image of Standard. If they unban already existing counters so Modern can use them, how does that impact Modern?
Modern already has a plethora of counters and ways to disrupt the stack. Many people dislike stack interaction. And, as we're now seeing, Ux has a very competitively viable build, so how much would adding another, even lower CMC, counter affect the power level of Ux builds?
I think the logical conclusion has to be that 2CMC counter would provide too much power to the Ux decks and further elevate their Top8/16/32 showings. Which then cascades into "slower" magic, with resulting timed-out matches, and logistics issues because more people are playing Ux decks with the powerful 2CMC counters and other decks drop in meta share because they can't get anything successfully through the stack bottle neck.
Obligatory - "OMG that's a way overblown fear..."
1) That's why I said (several times on the previous page) that a 1-2cmc counterspell with downside would be nice. There's a reason why Remand, Mana Leak, Logic Knot, Negate, Dispel, Spell Snare all see play, but not a single Cancel+upside sees any play whatsoever. It would have been nice to have something at least as powerful as the recent slew of busted removal spells.
2) Yes, Ux has a great deck. Specifically UW, which would not be able to cast this hypothetical UR without taking several downgrading steps. That's entirely the point of printing it in specifically UR to provide help for the tempo decks they have destroyed multiple times in the past.
3) The success of one deck that can't even play this hypothetical card should not impact whether or not we get to have that card.
4) A card would not break Standard if it had a downside that makes it poor/OK in Standard, but great in Modern.
What they are saying by not printing "downside" 1-2cmc counters for Modern is simply: "We do not want counters to be good in Modern."
I think the comment was more, the only format that will benefit from a 2CMC counter is Modern, because every other eternal format already has better options and Standard doesn't need a 2CMC counter. By introducing a 2CMC counter to Standard, so that it can flow in to Modern, would more than likely disrupt Standard significantly and result in a ban, further damaging the image of Standard. If they unban already existing counters so Modern can use them, how does that impact Modern?
Modern already has a plethora of counters and ways to disrupt the stack. Many people dislike stack interaction. And, as we're now seeing, Ux has a very competitively viable build, so how much would adding another, even lower CMC, counter affect the power level of Ux builds?
I think the logical conclusion has to be that 2CMC counter would provide too much power to the Ux decks and further elevate their Top8/16/32 showings. Which then cascades into "slower" magic, with resulting timed-out matches, and logistics issues because more people are playing Ux decks with the powerful 2CMC counters and other decks drop in meta share because they can't get anything successfully through the stack bottle neck.
Obligatory - "OMG that's a way overblown fear..."
1) That's why I said (several times on the previous page) that a 1-2cmc counterspell with downside would be nice. There's a reason why Remand, Mana Leak, Logic Knot, Negate, Dispel, Spell Snare all see play, but not a single Cancel+upside sees any play whatsoever. It would have been nice to have something at least as powerful as the recent slew of busted removal spells.
2) Yes, Ux has a great deck. Specifically UW, which would not be able to cast this hypothetical UR without taking several downgrading steps. That's entirely the point of printing it in specifically UR to provide help for the tempo decks they have destroyed multiple times in the past.
3) The success of one deck that can't even play this hypothetical card should not impact whether or not we get to have that card.
4) A card would not break Standard if it had a downside that makes it poor/OK in Standard, but great in Modern.
1) You just named 6 1-2 CMC spells that can go currently go into a Modern UR Deck. Why do you need another, specifically for UR?
2) The premise of your argument is that UR doesn't have an appropriately costed counterspell and therefore is "destroyed" as a result. Is that really the case though? Is a 1-2 CMC counterspell that fits narrowly into just a UR tempo shell going to catapult that deck forward, or will it actually do next to nothing for the deck that already has 6 of these options available, as you pointed out previously, and then end up being abused by a different build that you and Wizards didn't foresee?
3) Correct, if the hypothetical card is unplayable in the deck cited. My argument wasn't narrowly tailored to a UR build. The reason being, the counter, at 1 CMC, would also be playable in UW because it would have to be a U costed counter. A R costed counter doesn't fit the pie and likely ends up breaking other Rx decks. So, your hypothetical card would have to be UR costed by its very nature and then, yes, you are correct, that would not be played in the current UW build and that argument fails. But, it may make Jeskai rise or UR tempo, as you propose, or some other deck(s) we haven't considered.
4)How on earth do you design such a narrow counterspell that it's "poor/ok" in Standard but good in Modern? That seems like a complete impossibility for that type of card.
4)How on earth do you design such a narrow counterspell that it's "poor/ok" in Standard but good in Modern? That seems like a complete impossibility for that type of card.
Is Fatal Push too good? What about Assassin's Trophy? Why are those OK, but comparable counterspells with "downsides" of Revolt or ramping your opponent absolutely and completely off limits? Fatal Push was an OK-to-good Standard removal card that never broke anything. Even Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were just OK in Standard (and absolutely absurd in every eternal format). There are plenty of ways to get counterspells into Modern without breaking Standard, but it would have to line up with whatever mechanics are in that set. Could have done it with Revolt, but didn't. Could have given opponent a land, but didn't. Could allow opponent to draw a card. Could gain them life. Could deal damage to yourself. Could require conditional statements that turn Counterspell into something between Force Spike and Mana Leak, or some other semi-relevant downgrade:
Counterspell if you control a Mountain and Island, otherwise (downgrade).
Counterspell if it's not your turn, otherwise (downgrade).
Counterspell if you have fewer cards than opponent, otherwise (downgrade).
Counterspell if you control fewer permanents than opponent, otherwise (downgrade).
etc.
We had a Tier 1 control deck during KTK Standard (Esper Dragons) that played literal counterspell and was fine. It's not the end of the world to have a 2cmc UR counter in Standard. It breaks nothing unless some OTHER card abuses it (like Snapcaster and Mana Leak). And no, Teferi does not abuse it, nor can that deck cast it without clunking up their manabase to really awful levels (at least in Standard).
Although I agree that it can be somewhat disconcerting to see cards like Assassin's Trophy pushed to make it in to Modern (and beyond), but no countermagic. I feel that Wizards really wants Negate and Cancel to be in every Magic set from now on and just be the go-to for countermagic. It's pretty sad to be quite honest, considering that some players like myself saw it as a slap in the face to see those in EVERY SINGLE SET. Now we don't bat an eye.
Wizards is really being too overly cautious when it comes to countermagic. Perhaps they are trying to "phase it out" in many ways. I do agree that if we are not going to see good multicolor countermagic in a set and block like Ravnica, then where will we see it? I really don't know what else to say.
I've long moved on from countermagic. I don't expect everyone else to do so, but I think people are really getting a broad picture of how Wizards wants to do (or "not do") countermagic from here on out. If they did a really good countermagic card, I would fully expect to see more creatures have CAST abilities just like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger so that the countermagic doesn't really do much. Creatures win again!
P.S. - I don't really know where I was going with that post.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I actually think post-Assassin Trophy era that you want to play 0-1 Search for Azcanta. The primary MU's you'd ideally want this card now have access to an easy answer (whether it be Field or other options). It's all ready borderline too slow against the aggro decks in the format and against some combo decks it's difficult to spend 4 mana for shields down (think Ad Naus) or is just too slow there (re: Grishoal/etc.). Search really cemented Ux control being favored against the various Bx based mid-range decks, but that's no longer the case. It's still going to be a powerhouse against Mardu, but it's going to be an underwhelming card in a large amount of MU's. I'd rather play more Hieroglyphic Illumination / insert non-permanent CA card (I think Chemister's Insight has a good spot as a 1-of in a lot of control decks, especially UB decks with Thought Scour).
The real reason why UW is where it is now is because of Field and Teferi/Jace/Terminus. I was a huge champion of bringing Opt into Modern, but it is a very very minor upgrade over current options, but let's not kid ourselves that it had a big effect. Going from SV to Preordain/Ponder there you have an argument, but not with Opt. The point I'm trying to make is without either Field or Teferi, UW is not in the spot it is now. Take away the other cards, and UW is still Tier 1 (even Jace imho). Teferi is just such a good card, but since it is multi-color it pigeon-holes you. Is it too much to ask for on-par control cards in UB and UR? Why does BG always get the best multi-color answers? It just seems odd to me that the I/S colors have *****ty I/S and color pairings like RW, GR, and BR have much better options.
Do you have a link to this research, because it doesnt make much sense. Casting spells is just as integral as a part of the game as anything else. Maybe what you mean to say is that having stack wars like we see in vintage is pretty niche.
"Spell Slinging" is a Wizard's approved deck theme and theres a lot of ways to design cards around this theme. Take for example Commander 2015's Seize Control Mizzix of the Izmagnus deck. It has a lot of cool mechanics that revolve around casting spells and not just fighting for board control. The major point I'm trying to make is that the idea that people just want to play with creatures is not only false, but a bad way to look at the game form a design standpoint. Playing mid-rangey style games where creatures face off is jut as small as a niche as stack wars style decks, and on top of it can lead to really bland and boring play patters that actually come down to luck rather than skill.
Yeah, a mechanic like storm is pushed to its limits in a format like Modern, but I'd even go far to say that a card like Grapeshot could easily be reprinted in a Standard set if they go about it correctly. Really, how scary is a card like Grapeshot without enablers like Pyretic Ritual and Past in Flames?
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
it doesnt have to be all or nothing, and based on wizards actions they know that.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The game was at its worst when they listened to this feedback, and they know it.
Like my final opponent last night kept typing zzzzz into chat while I kept him off anything relevant and killed him with Savage Snapcaster Beats (thx tronix) well guess what? Play a deck that can do more than try and ramp to Tooth and Nail, maybe you won't get poked for 10 turns till you die.
Spirits
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
This is just as lame of an excuse for 2cmc counters as saying Stoneforge Mystic can't be unbanned because it stifles Equipment design. You can make that argument all day, but what's the excuse for terrible counters and equipment for the last 10 years?
Removal = cheap with "downside"
Counters = expensive with "upside"
Why does this have to be the design template?
Teferi is completely irrelevant to the design of counterspells. They simply do not (and will not) make cheap counters with downside (for whatever reason).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
That's why they do something like give a "downside" that is really bad in Standard, and mostly irrelevant in Modern/Legacy/etc.
There is no excuse for not making cheap counters with downside other than simply not wanting to. How many versions of Cancel are they going to print before realizing that none of them see play in anything outside of Standard? Or do they simply not care?
Again, meanwhile power creep gives us the most busted and powerful removal spell ever printed, and not too long after printing one of the most influential removal spells since Path to Exile. So it's not like they aren't thinking of eternal formats.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
EDIT: I reaaaaallllllly want to emphasize this. Control has become viable in modern by a different means - a new ability to turn the corner. If the problem was that removing twin made the primary wincon options for controlling decks far worse, then the solution is not giving modern counterspell. The solution is better wincons.
The nice thing about making a UR counter+land is that UW can't play it without going Jeskai. Going Jeskai means less consistency, more self-damage from fetches/shocks, fewer Field of Ruins, and more cuts for red cards, etc etc. The card would have been a perfect opportunity to give something to UR tempo decks (and Grixis), but instead we get yet another Cancel with meaningless upside. Massive swing and a miss.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm kind of missing the point on this one. Yes, wincon's matter. UW certainly has all it needs to be successful, as does imo UWR while people who apparently are pro's disagree or agree to disagree on if UWR is 'good'.
None of that changes if we could have had a UR counterspell at 2, instead of 3. Wizards is simply lazy.
Counters at 3 are apparently 'good enough' in Standard to see play. So is it really that they are afraid of Counters? They have 3 or 4 in every Standard block!
Nah, they just havent been paying attention to Modern (after all, legacy doesnt need a 2cmc Counter, they only play FREE counters down in Legacy land) so thats the probable issue.
What question or problem, is being answered by a 2 mana Counter? Not Vintage, not Pauper, not Legacy, and not Standard.
Its a niche of a niche at this point, and thats likely why we have not seen one yet.
Spirits
This is an overall philosophical choice they are making in design. It has nothing to do with any specific card. They simply do not want counterspells at or under 2cmc, downside be damned.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I'm not so sure this is true. You need around 2-3 to "tax" their Assassin's Trophies. Also I noticed something when I played Jeskai for a short time. I used to wonder why none of my opponents were siding out Search for Azcanta against my super quick Combo deck. They need to keep that card in. It serves as their win-con later on and guarantees that they win the long game. There are plenty of other cards to side out. I used to think that the card should be sided out against some decks, but now I truly believe that I have yet to play a matchup where Search for Azcanta should be on the bench. If anything, it helps you scry to answers on turns 3, 4, and 5.
Assassin's Trophy? Sure, give me a land. Sooner of later, another Search will be in play unless you kill me quickly, Mr. GBx.
*Also, UG (Simic) hasn't gotten a good card since Mystic Snake, lol. (I'm not a Simic fan; just an observation.)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits
That's because Vintage has Mana Drain, Pauper and Legacy both have Counterspell itself, Legacy also has Force of Will, Daze and Flusterstorm, and Standard is slow and clunky enough that 3cmc is fine.
What they are saying by not printing "downside" 1-2cmc counters for Modern is simply: "We do not want counters to be good in Modern."
When coupled with the massive upgrade in removal spells at 1-2cmc while pushing NWO design, they are saying: "We want to make creature ETBs better, so that when someone kills it, you don't feel bad."
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Would it see play in Modern? Yep, but I'm not sure even a play set would make it in, other then perhaps a Tempo Delver deck. GDS wouldnt play it, I doubt UWR plays the set, MAYBE UW does, but thats it.
Spirits
I think the comment was more, the only format that will benefit from a 2CMC counter is Modern, because every other eternal format already has better options and Standard doesn't need a 2CMC counter. By introducing a 2CMC counter to Standard, so that it can flow in to Modern, would more than likely disrupt Standard significantly and result in a ban, further damaging the image of Standard. If they unban already existing counters so Modern can use them, how does that impact Modern?
Modern already has a plethora of counters and ways to disrupt the stack. Many people dislike stack interaction. And, as we're now seeing, Ux has a very competitively viable build, so how much would adding another, even lower CMC, counter affect the power level of Ux builds?
I think the logical conclusion has to be that 2CMC counter would provide too much power to the Ux decks and further elevate their Top8/16/32 showings. Which then cascades into "slower" magic, with resulting timed-out matches, and logistics issues because more people are playing Ux decks with the powerful 2CMC counters and other decks drop in meta share because they can't get anything successfully through the stack bottle neck.
Obligatory - "OMG that's a way overblown fear..."
GDS still wrecks my face, often.
Spirits
1) That's why I said (several times on the previous page) that a 1-2cmc counterspell with downside would be nice. There's a reason why Remand, Mana Leak, Logic Knot, Negate, Dispel, Spell Snare all see play, but not a single Cancel+upside sees any play whatsoever. It would have been nice to have something at least as powerful as the recent slew of busted removal spells.
2) Yes, Ux has a great deck. Specifically UW, which would not be able to cast this hypothetical UR without taking several downgrading steps. That's entirely the point of printing it in specifically UR to provide help for the tempo decks they have destroyed multiple times in the past.
3) The success of one deck that can't even play this hypothetical card should not impact whether or not we get to have that card.
4) A card would not break Standard if it had a downside that makes it poor/OK in Standard, but great in Modern.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
1) You just named 6 1-2 CMC spells that can go currently go into a Modern UR Deck. Why do you need another, specifically for UR?
2) The premise of your argument is that UR doesn't have an appropriately costed counterspell and therefore is "destroyed" as a result. Is that really the case though? Is a 1-2 CMC counterspell that fits narrowly into just a UR tempo shell going to catapult that deck forward, or will it actually do next to nothing for the deck that already has 6 of these options available, as you pointed out previously, and then end up being abused by a different build that you and Wizards didn't foresee?
3) Correct, if the hypothetical card is unplayable in the deck cited. My argument wasn't narrowly tailored to a UR build. The reason being, the counter, at 1 CMC, would also be playable in UW because it would have to be a U costed counter. A R costed counter doesn't fit the pie and likely ends up breaking other Rx decks. So, your hypothetical card would have to be UR costed by its very nature and then, yes, you are correct, that would not be played in the current UW build and that argument fails. But, it may make Jeskai rise or UR tempo, as you propose, or some other deck(s) we haven't considered.
4)How on earth do you design such a narrow counterspell that it's "poor/ok" in Standard but good in Modern? That seems like a complete impossibility for that type of card.
Is Fatal Push too good? What about Assassin's Trophy? Why are those OK, but comparable counterspells with "downsides" of Revolt or ramping your opponent absolutely and completely off limits? Fatal Push was an OK-to-good Standard removal card that never broke anything. Even Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time were just OK in Standard (and absolutely absurd in every eternal format). There are plenty of ways to get counterspells into Modern without breaking Standard, but it would have to line up with whatever mechanics are in that set. Could have done it with Revolt, but didn't. Could have given opponent a land, but didn't. Could allow opponent to draw a card. Could gain them life. Could deal damage to yourself. Could require conditional statements that turn Counterspell into something between Force Spike and Mana Leak, or some other semi-relevant downgrade:
Counterspell if you control a Mountain and Island, otherwise (downgrade).
Counterspell if it's not your turn, otherwise (downgrade).
Counterspell if you have fewer cards than opponent, otherwise (downgrade).
Counterspell if you control fewer permanents than opponent, otherwise (downgrade).
etc.
We had a Tier 1 control deck during KTK Standard (Esper Dragons) that played literal counterspell and was fine. It's not the end of the world to have a 2cmc UR counter in Standard. It breaks nothing unless some OTHER card abuses it (like Snapcaster and Mana Leak). And no, Teferi does not abuse it, nor can that deck cast it without clunking up their manabase to really awful levels (at least in Standard).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Wizards is really being too overly cautious when it comes to countermagic. Perhaps they are trying to "phase it out" in many ways. I do agree that if we are not going to see good multicolor countermagic in a set and block like Ravnica, then where will we see it? I really don't know what else to say.
I've long moved on from countermagic. I don't expect everyone else to do so, but I think people are really getting a broad picture of how Wizards wants to do (or "not do") countermagic from here on out. If they did a really good countermagic card, I would fully expect to see more creatures have CAST abilities just like Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger so that the countermagic doesn't really do much. Creatures win again!
P.S. - I don't really know where I was going with that post.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)