This is disappointing. Each time we are ready with the pitchforks to get something banned from Humans, someone says "Look, there's an Ancient Stirrings being cast" and people immediately lose their minds , forget the deck that is actually the bigger portion of the meta and go "argh this is so unfair!! I WANT TO SCRY BEFORE I DRAW!!".
Remain on Humans ban topic please.
Anyway, which archetypes do people talk about with the "Ancient Stirrings decks". KCI and Tron are the only ones really since Amulet Bloom, Hardenes Scales affinity or Lantern are scarcely played. Of the two, KCI is the one with multiple issues that I could see getting hit but Stirrings is such a secondary target that it could keep going. Given that Tron has its share of bad matchups and has periods when it doesn't win anything, it's awful the idea of killing a card that makes and archetype of its own for variety (of course, killing variety is exactly what pros want, but then, pros ain't our friends and their attempts to standardize Modern can keep being ignored).
EDIT: Man Alpha / Beta / Old sets Limited is so boring to watch... Magic may have seen better times but surely it was years or a decade after the beginning. Maybe the point is to make people think "That's old magic? Thank god we have M19"
This is disappointing. Each time we are ready with the pitchforks to get something banned from Humans, someone says "Look, there's an Ancient Stirrings being cast" and people immediately lose their minds , forget the deck that is actually the bigger portion of the meta and go "argh this is so unfair!! I WANT TO SCRY BEFORE I DRAW!!".
Remain on Humans ban topic please.
See stats above. Humans at 8.8% of the collective GP/PT T8 metagame is not bannable, and that's if we add the Team PT results which I don't even think we can because individual decks can't be separated from overall team performance. If we take out that Team PT, Humans falls to 6%.
One thing that bugs me about Humans is that it took a few different decks -- Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Merfolk -- and rendered them obsolete. There's no reason to play a fish-style aggro-control deck these days that isn't Humans. Grixis Shadow did the same thing to midrange for a while, and there was some metagame response to it. What's going to happen, or is already happening, in response to Humans?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
My only problem with Stirrings is the double standard it presents. Don't try and tell me about its deck building constraints, because that's not a drawback in the decks that play it. It is an objective fact that Ancient Stirrings is more powerful in its decks than Ponder. If you question that statement, just ask yourself this: would the colorless decks prefer to splash green for Stirrings, or blue for Ponder if it was legal? It's offensive that Stirrings is legal when Ponder isn't, and not to mention Preordain, which is way below both of those cards in power. Preordain should probably just be legal either way, but Stirrings and Ponder need to be together. Either they're both legal, or they're both banned. I personally would prefer if they just unbanned the blue cantrips, and we can deal with Grapeshot if Storm becomes a problem.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
On the one hand, these results should be considered fairly meaningless because it's a team event. Both Hollow One and Humans had very middling performance going in, and Humans had so many pilots on Day 1 that it would be surprising for at least 1 not to make T4.
On the other hand, KCI continues a multi-month stretch of being the secret best deck in the format. Although I'm willing to dismiss the Humans and H1 results in a team setting, KCI just continues to look ridiculous. If Stark's team wins the event, the KCI-targeted ban calls will be very loud. I am unlikely to disagree with them, and I think more GP this year will continue to show Stirrings and KCI/Gx Tron/other Stirrings decks as frontrunning archetypes by a large degree.
are you serious?? 17% day 1 and 50% top4 and you say its because so many play them? Now you have your data asking bevore, you need to accept now only
One thing that bugs me about Humans is that it took a few different decks -- Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Merfolk -- and rendered them obsolete. There's no reason to play a fish-style aggro-control deck these days that isn't Humans. Grixis Shadow did the same thing to midrange for a while, and there was some metagame response to it. What's going to happen, or is already happening, in response to Humans?
The response to humans, was UWR. Thats it. You are completely correct however that there is zero reason to play DnT, Hatebears, or Merfolk, when Humans are around. Those are all inferior versions of Humans, though DnT/Hatebears has that whole land hate thing going on.
Disagree. It's nice to have the card selection, and lots of decks will give up card advantage to get it. Obviously you want some graveyard use, but the only other 1 mana Modern-legal card that digs two deep and gives you a choice is Sleight of Hand, and that's nowhere near as good as Looting in terms of being able to sculpt your hand.
Hollow One: has Bloodghast and Flamewake Phoenix
Bridgevine: has Bridge from Below and Vengevine
Dredge: has all its dredgers, Bloodghast, Prized Amalgam, Conflagrate
Grishoalbrand: has Griselbrand, which you need in the graveyard to target with Goryo's Vengeance
Mardu: has Lingering Souls (costs 2 and not white to flashback)
Storm plays Sleight of Hand and not Faithless Looting, despite the ability to flashback discarded stuff with Past in Flames.
Grixis DS is the latest deck to use Looting despite not having cards that are better in graveyard than hand. I believe it's flavor of the month and will die out, because the exact same thing happened to Storm after a list with Looting T8ed PT Born of the Gods. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Looting is terrible when you mulligan at least once and your deck has no graveyard shenanigans to turn the negative CA into a positive.
One thing that bugs me about Humans is that it took a few different decks -- Death and Taxes, Hatebears, Merfolk -- and rendered them obsolete. There's no reason to play a fish-style aggro-control deck these days that isn't Humans. Grixis Shadow did the same thing to midrange for a while, and there was some metagame response to it. What's going to happen, or is already happening, in response to Humans?
The difference between humans vs Death and Taxes / Merfolk is that it cannot play colored non-creature cards.
Grixis DS is the latest deck to use Looting despite not having cards that are better in graveyard than hand. I believe it's flavor of the month and will die out, because the exact same thing happened to Storm after a list with Looting T8ed PT Born of the Gods. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Looting is being played in GDS because it acts like Thought Scours 5 and 6 for the purposes of enabling turn 2 Anglers. Also, the deck rips through its library quickly, so you would often flood even though you were only playing 17-19 lands. It's not really card disadvantage when you're discarding two lands you don't need.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Disagree. It's nice to have the card selection, and lots of decks will give up card advantage to get it. Obviously you want some graveyard use, but the only other 1 mana Modern-legal card that digs two deep and gives you a choice is Sleight of Hand, and that's nowhere near as good as Looting in terms of being able to sculpt your hand.
Hollow One: has Bloodghast and Flamewake Phoenix
Bridgevine: has Bridge from Below and Vengevine
Dredge: has all its dredgers, Bloodghast, Prized Amalgam, Conflagrate
Grishoalbrand: has Griselbrand, which you need in the graveyard to target with Goryo's Vengeance
Mardu: has Lingering Souls (costs 2 and not white to flashback)
Storm plays Sleight of Hand and not Faithless Looting, despite the ability to flashback discarded stuff with Past in Flames.
Grixis DS is the latest deck to use Looting despite not having cards that are better in graveyard than hand. I believe it's flavor of the month and will die out, because the exact same thing happened to Storm after a list with Looting T8ed PT Born of the Gods. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Looting is terrible when you mulligan at least once and your deck has no graveyard shenanigans to turn the negative CA into a positive.
Basically yes. If someone playing any of the graveyard based decks built around cheating power to the field have to mull to 6 or 5, the game is already over most of the time. You can sometimes narrowly get a win on 6, but 5...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
My only problem with Stirrings is the double standard it presents. Don't try and tell me about its deck building constraints, because that's not a drawback in the decks that play it. It is an objective fact that Ancient Stirrings is more powerful in its decks than Ponder. If you question that statement, just ask yourself this: would the colorless decks prefer to splash green for Stirrings, or blue for Ponder if it was legal?
Not really a fair comparison. Ponder's strength comes from its synergy with fetchlands, which the decks you're alluding to don't run. But if they were, I think Ponder would be better than Ancient Stirrings (except perhaps in Gx Tron, but that comes from it already being in Green for Sylvan scrying regardless of Ancient Stirrings or Ponder, so it makes more sense to go with the cantrip in the color you're already in).
It's offensive that Stirrings is legal when Ponder isn't, and not to mention Preordain, which is way below both of those cards in power. Preordain should probably just be legal either way, but Stirrings and Ponder need to be together. Either they're both legal, or they're both banned. I personally would prefer if they just unbanned the blue cantrips, and we can deal with Grapeshot if Storm becomes a problem.
Even accepting the proposition that Ancient Stirrings is inherently better than Ponder in the decks that currently run it, that doesn't mean it's a dissonance for it to be legal while Ponder isn't. The thing is, in a whole lot of other decks, Ponder is way better.
I do generally agree that Preordain could probably be unbanned, but the strength of UWx Control does give me a little pause in that area. I think I'd rather see Splinter Twin return at this point.
You ignored the entire argument and only focused on "Turn 4." The argument is that every combo deck in Modern right now that can consistently win early devotes its entire deck to doing so. Humans remains powerful and fast while also being disruptive because it devotes half its deck to the tribal support it needs to accomplish that goal. So here we have a bunch of fast decks that need 30+ cards to pull off these crazy-fast powerful strategies...
...and then we have Twin winning at the same speed with a whopping 7 cards devoted to the combo. Yeah, that's totally comparable. /s
Not a fair comparison. Twin may have been capable of winning at the same speed, but it didn't have the same level of consistency (unless you were in All-In Twin, which required a more pieces), and it was also far more vulnerable to disruption and thus the turn 4 kill was generally only doable against decks lacking interaction against Twin, like removal or discard or counterspells.
Also, your comparison of "30+" versus "7" is inaccurate also. First, Twin's usual suite was 4x Exarch+2x Pestermite+4x Splinter Twin which is 10, not 7. Now you might say that's still a lot less than 30+. But to get to that 30+ you have to include the various cards used to actually get the combo together and protect it, so you'd have to then start counting the Serum Visions and Remands and other cards that Twin ran to find or protect the combo.
No-Ban Modern exists and has been tested. The format is nothing but Eldrazi Winter with a few Affinity decks and Infect winning here and there on Turn 2.
Er, what are you basing this on? If it's the SCG Open, Infect and Affinity were basically absent in that. Eldrazi Winter was out in full force, but I think a lot of that had to do with (1) people not expecting the deck (I looked at various discussions beforehand about what people thought the best decks were, Eldrazi was not on people's radar in general) and (2) the ease of putting it together back on the old Modern decks. I think we'd need to see another such event before we could try to make strong conclusions about it... but even from the event in question, your conclusions aren't making sense.
Re: Humans
I've seen at least two comparisons to Twin. This needs to stop. Humans has two GP T8s in the last 7 months. Twin had 10+ by the end of 2015. Twin made up 19% of GP T8 decks that year. Not even Gx Tron is currently at that level, and Humans isn't even close. I know it's easy to look at SCG Opens and Day 1 Team PT #s and say the deck's share is too high, but these numbers do not matter. If the GP stats shift and Humans picks up a lot more T8s, that's something to discuss. But right now, it's speculation and hyperbole.
If they were going to make a ban decision on a card right now that would even hit humans, it would probably be based on other factors. The problem is that the only example I can think of off the top of my hand where they did ban a card not because of a particular deck, but because of being too prolific, was Smuggler's Copter in standard. It sounds like some people are thinking that WoTC is going to ban Aether Vial, but I haven't seen a proliferation of successful decks packing Aether Vial over running the competitive scene.
As for Faithless Looting, I think people are jumping the gun. The problem with the Bridgevine / Dredge strategy is that it's totally possible to just get a hand that does nothing. When I say nothing, I mean it's like you just grabbed a bunch of random cards out of a binder and put them into a deck kind of random. They are fun to play, but I just wouldn't want to take the chance of bringing one to a tournament. It's possible maybe the Greater Gargadon version of the deck is more reliable, but I've got my doubts. I'd probably suspect cheating or lightning striking twice if the deck top eights a tournament.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
On the one hand, these results should be considered fairly meaningless because it's a team event. Both Hollow One and Humans had very middling performance going in, and Humans had so many pilots on Day 1 that it would be surprising for at least 1 not to make T4.
On the other hand, KCI continues a multi-month stretch of being the secret best deck in the format. Although I'm willing to dismiss the Humans and H1 results in a team setting, KCI just continues to look ridiculous. If Stark's team wins the event, the KCI-targeted ban calls will be very loud. I am unlikely to disagree with them, and I think more GP this year will continue to show Stirrings and KCI/Gx Tron/other Stirrings decks as frontrunning archetypes by a large degree.
are you serious?? 17% day 1 and 50% top4 and you say its because so many play them? Now you have your data asking bevore, you need to accept now only
It's a Team event. T4 results dont matter. Day 1 results dont matter either. Day 1 results have never mattered. Stop warping the most cherrypicked datasets to fit your anti-Humans narrative.
Who might even had an anti-Humans narrative? I mean, I get having an anti-Eggs narrative, or something, but this is crazy.
Humans is just an aggro creature based deck. Even if it's sitting on 3 top 8 / GP, it's just fine.
I dunno, it's mostly just that user I keep replying to. Ive seen a few other anti-Humans posts here too. It's all quite ridiculous given the source of the data. If we cut out the meaningless T4 PT Team results (again, meaningless because we have no idea how Humans itself performed), Humans has only 4 GP and PT T8 results all year.
Re: Humans
I've seen at least two comparisons to Twin. This needs to stop. Humans has two GP T8s in the last 7 months. Twin had 10+ by the end of 2015. Twin made up 19% of GP T8 decks that year. Not even Gx Tron is currently at that level, and Humans isn't even close. I know it's easy to look at SCG Opens and Day 1 Team PT #s and say the deck's share is too high, but these numbers do not matter. If the GP stats shift and Humans picks up a lot more T8s, that's something to discuss. But right now, it's speculation and hyperbole.
If they were going to make a ban decision on a card right now that would even hit humans, it would probably be based on other factors. The problem is that the only example I can think of off the top of my hand where they did ban a card not because of a particular deck, but because of being too prolific, was Smuggler's Copter in standard.
Not counting the earliest years of the game, there's Mental Misstep (Legacy), Skullclamp (Standard), and Rishadan Port (Mercadian Masques Block Constructed).
There are some other cards that may qualify, depending on what exactly you mean by "not because of a particular deck, but because of being too prolific." For example, Jace in Standard. Obviously, the deck everyone had in mind was Caw-Blade, but that was really just the best Jace shell. Only half of the Top 8 decks at Grand Prix Dallas 2011 was Caw-Blade, but Jace still managed the perfect 32/32 penetration (something that I believe has only been accomplished at the GP/PT level by Brainstorm in Legacy and Courser of Kruphix in Theros Block Constructed). So does Jace's ban count as occurring because of Caw-Blade being too good, or because he was just everywhere irrespective of Caw-Blade? There's also Deathrite Shaman in Legacy, which was hugely prolific but whose 38% metashare wasn't that high compared to other cards banned for being everywhere, does that count.
Although I feel Smuggler's Copter, and possibly everything else in that batch, would have been spared had people not disliked that Standard format so much. I don't think it saw as much play as Mutavault did during RTR-Theros Standard, and I think Mutavault might have been more warping--Smuggler's Copter just was a good fit for a lot of decks, but Mutavault actively affected deck construction by making it harder to play more than 2 colors. The difference, as far as I can tell, is that attendance was stable during RTR-Theros but was declining when Smuggler's Copter was legal, though there were more factors in the decline than just Smuggler's Copter of course, or even the other cards they banned.
On the one hand, these results should be considered fairly meaningless because it's a team event. Both Hollow One and Humans had very middling performance going in, and Humans had so many pilots on Day 1 that it would be surprising for at least 1 not to make T4.
On the other hand, KCI continues a multi-month stretch of being the secret best deck in the format. Although I'm willing to dismiss the Humans and H1 results in a team setting, KCI just continues to look ridiculous. If Stark's team wins the event, the KCI-targeted ban calls will be very loud. I am unlikely to disagree with them, and I think more GP this year will continue to show Stirrings and KCI/Gx Tron/other Stirrings decks as frontrunning archetypes by a large degree.
are you serious?? 17% day 1 and 50% top4 and you say its because so many play them? Now you have your data asking bevore, you need to accept now only
It's a Team event. T4 results dont matter. Day 1 results dont matter either. Day 1 results have never mattered. Stop warping the most cherrypicked datasets to fit your anti-Humans narrative.
stop cherrypicking and doing stuff you critizes if other people do this. Since several tournaments you say now:" it was only this tournament blabla,it was only Team blabla...". Stop this ignorance Please only to force your narrativ vs stirrings. Humans becoming more problematic each day and we all can See this. Its only the playstyle of humans you and other like and helping ignoring facts Infraction issued for trolling/flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
Humans is good, but its hard to say its 'too good' at this point. Its simply the best at what it does.
That's been used here plenty of times in the past to justify a ban. It shouldn't have been a good enough reason then, and it's still not a good reason now.
The reality is that it's not strangling diversity, Folk, Zoo, DnT, are just not good enough. The format has evolved in a short time, starting with GDS and Mardu I imo.
Remain on Humans ban topic please.
Anyway, which archetypes do people talk about with the "Ancient Stirrings decks". KCI and Tron are the only ones really since Amulet Bloom, Hardenes Scales affinity or Lantern are scarcely played. Of the two, KCI is the one with multiple issues that I could see getting hit but Stirrings is such a secondary target that it could keep going. Given that Tron has its share of bad matchups and has periods when it doesn't win anything, it's awful the idea of killing a card that makes and archetype of its own for variety (of course, killing variety is exactly what pros want, but then, pros ain't our friends and their attempts to standardize Modern can keep being ignored).
EDIT: Man Alpha / Beta / Old sets Limited is so boring to watch... Magic may have seen better times but surely it was years or a decade after the beginning. Maybe the point is to make people think "That's old magic? Thank god we have M19"
See stats above. Humans at 8.8% of the collective GP/PT T8 metagame is not bannable, and that's if we add the Team PT results which I don't even think we can because individual decks can't be separated from overall team performance. If we take out that Team PT, Humans falls to 6%.
Humans needs no ban, it's a deck that appeals to people who like Tribal, Creatures, and turning them sideways.
Looting doesn't need a ban. Mardu too good? Since when.
Humans - Twin? Lol please no. Twin would be a tier 1 deck, instantly. Would take meta share from everyone. It would allow Stirrings to stay though.
No, the real issue, as KTK keeps posting the performance numbers for, is Stirrings.
Get on board, that card has to go.
Spirits
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
The response to humans, was UWR. Thats it. You are completely correct however that there is zero reason to play DnT, Hatebears, or Merfolk, when Humans are around. Those are all inferior versions of Humans, though DnT/Hatebears has that whole land hate thing going on.
Spirits
Bridgevine: has Bridge from Below and Vengevine
Dredge: has all its dredgers, Bloodghast, Prized Amalgam, Conflagrate
Grishoalbrand: has Griselbrand, which you need in the graveyard to target with Goryo's Vengeance
Mardu: has Lingering Souls (costs 2 and not white to flashback)
Storm plays Sleight of Hand and not Faithless Looting, despite the ability to flashback discarded stuff with Past in Flames.
Grixis DS is the latest deck to use Looting despite not having cards that are better in graveyard than hand. I believe it's flavor of the month and will die out, because the exact same thing happened to Storm after a list with Looting T8ed PT Born of the Gods. Enjoy it while it lasts.
Looting is terrible when you mulligan at least once and your deck has no graveyard shenanigans to turn the negative CA into a positive.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
The difference between humans vs Death and Taxes / Merfolk is that it cannot play colored non-creature cards.
No Stony Silence, no Rest in Peace, no spreading seas, no counterspells.
You could argue they are not needed, but it is still a difference.
Looting is being played in GDS because it acts like Thought Scours 5 and 6 for the purposes of enabling turn 2 Anglers. Also, the deck rips through its library quickly, so you would often flood even though you were only playing 17-19 lands. It's not really card disadvantage when you're discarding two lands you don't need.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Spirits
Basically yes. If someone playing any of the graveyard based decks built around cheating power to the field have to mull to 6 or 5, the game is already over most of the time. You can sometimes narrowly get a win on 6, but 5...
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Even accepting the proposition that Ancient Stirrings is inherently better than Ponder in the decks that currently run it, that doesn't mean it's a dissonance for it to be legal while Ponder isn't. The thing is, in a whole lot of other decks, Ponder is way better.
I do generally agree that Preordain could probably be unbanned, but the strength of UWx Control does give me a little pause in that area. I think I'd rather see Splinter Twin return at this point.
Also, your comparison of "30+" versus "7" is inaccurate also. First, Twin's usual suite was 4x Exarch+2x Pestermite+4x Splinter Twin which is 10, not 7. Now you might say that's still a lot less than 30+. But to get to that 30+ you have to include the various cards used to actually get the combo together and protect it, so you'd have to then start counting the Serum Visions and Remands and other cards that Twin ran to find or protect the combo.
Er, what are you basing this on? If it's the SCG Open, Infect and Affinity were basically absent in that. Eldrazi Winter was out in full force, but I think a lot of that had to do with (1) people not expecting the deck (I looked at various discussions beforehand about what people thought the best decks were, Eldrazi was not on people's radar in general) and (2) the ease of putting it together back on the old Modern decks. I think we'd need to see another such event before we could try to make strong conclusions about it... but even from the event in question, your conclusions aren't making sense.
If they were going to make a ban decision on a card right now that would even hit humans, it would probably be based on other factors. The problem is that the only example I can think of off the top of my hand where they did ban a card not because of a particular deck, but because of being too prolific, was Smuggler's Copter in standard. It sounds like some people are thinking that WoTC is going to ban Aether Vial, but I haven't seen a proliferation of successful decks packing Aether Vial over running the competitive scene.
As for Faithless Looting, I think people are jumping the gun. The problem with the Bridgevine / Dredge strategy is that it's totally possible to just get a hand that does nothing. When I say nothing, I mean it's like you just grabbed a bunch of random cards out of a binder and put them into a deck kind of random. They are fun to play, but I just wouldn't want to take the chance of bringing one to a tournament. It's possible maybe the Greater Gargadon version of the deck is more reliable, but I've got my doubts. I'd probably suspect cheating or lightning striking twice if the deck top eights a tournament.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's a Team event. T4 results dont matter. Day 1 results dont matter either. Day 1 results have never mattered. Stop warping the most cherrypicked datasets to fit your anti-Humans narrative.
I dunno, it's mostly just that user I keep replying to. Ive seen a few other anti-Humans posts here too. It's all quite ridiculous given the source of the data. If we cut out the meaningless T4 PT Team results (again, meaningless because we have no idea how Humans itself performed), Humans has only 4 GP and PT T8 results all year.
There are some other cards that may qualify, depending on what exactly you mean by "not because of a particular deck, but because of being too prolific." For example, Jace in Standard. Obviously, the deck everyone had in mind was Caw-Blade, but that was really just the best Jace shell. Only half of the Top 8 decks at Grand Prix Dallas 2011 was Caw-Blade, but Jace still managed the perfect 32/32 penetration (something that I believe has only been accomplished at the GP/PT level by Brainstorm in Legacy and Courser of Kruphix in Theros Block Constructed). So does Jace's ban count as occurring because of Caw-Blade being too good, or because he was just everywhere irrespective of Caw-Blade? There's also Deathrite Shaman in Legacy, which was hugely prolific but whose 38% metashare wasn't that high compared to other cards banned for being everywhere, does that count.
Although I feel Smuggler's Copter, and possibly everything else in that batch, would have been spared had people not disliked that Standard format so much. I don't think it saw as much play as Mutavault did during RTR-Theros Standard, and I think Mutavault might have been more warping--Smuggler's Copter just was a good fit for a lot of decks, but Mutavault actively affected deck construction by making it harder to play more than 2 colors. The difference, as far as I can tell, is that attendance was stable during RTR-Theros but was declining when Smuggler's Copter was legal, though there were more factors in the decline than just Smuggler's Copter of course, or even the other cards they banned.
Infraction issued for trolling/flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
Spirits
That's been used here plenty of times in the past to justify a ban. It shouldn't have been a good enough reason then, and it's still not a good reason now.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Spirits