Boy this thread went downhill. We had a stretch of some solid GP results, minus potentially the KCI/Tron issue. Now we add a single SCG Open and a PT Day 1 breakdown and people are freaking out. Everyone needs to calm down and wait for more GP and MTGO results, not Open and Team PT Day 1 results. We alreary know those kinds of results are largelu meaningless. Wait for more influential results.
Boy this thread went downhill. We had a stretch of some solid GP results, minus potentially the KCI/Tron issue. Now we add a single SCG Open and a PT Day 1 breakdown and people are freaking out. Everyone needs to calm down and wait for more GP and MTGO results, not Open and Team PT Day 1 results. We alreary know those kinds of results are largelu meaningless. Wait for more influential results.
It went downhill because we're pointing out just how busted two decks are that are both abusing notoriously and historically busted cards that have been at the center of conversation for months?
Also, no, PT results weigh heavier on Wizards than random GP or MTGO results. The PT has always brought along a much higher magnifying glass with it.
I've always loved Vengevine ever since Next Level Bant was a "thing" in Standard. The card was $55 at one time in Standard eventually.
The funny thing is, and I'm sure I've said this too many times already, that when Golgari Grave-Troll was unbanned, the Dredge deck I tried had Vengevine and Gravecrawler. It ended up not being as successful as the regular Dredge deck, but maybe I shouldn't have given up so soon?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I played that Jund Version, with Lotleth Troll and such. Fun and 'good enough' but certainly not this. Once the deck got busted with the SoI and Cathartic cards, I was bored of it.
To be fair, the Bridgevine player has had some really great draws.
Also the deck is fairly poor against creature decks with some sort of evasion, like Bogles, Affinity, Infect, Elves... Probably a great pick for this weekend with the pros picking the more established “tier” decks
Interesting, about a week ago there were calls for bannings of numerous cards. I mentioned that a new "Busted" Vengevine deck might rear it's ugly head and put the format on it's head. Is this bannable? NO, we need to adjust first and ask that question down the line. I love the busted starts from the deck but I did beat it a few times with forgotten hits like Bant Eldrazi That said, when the deck purrs it is just, an efficient beat down machine. Has anyone tested extensively against it? My sample size is confined to the MTGO leagues but when I faced won off the back of Displacers and Smashers.
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Standard Arena: Eh? Gruul or Die
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now: G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record) C Eldrazi Tron (9-5) UG Infect RW Burn
It’s a pro tour, very small meta of people that all play established decks, and they are less worried about draws because there are 2 people to their sides that just have to complete their games. That’s where control is great.
We're talking about the most experienced players around, and there are two kinds of players that stick around for years and years. Those that find pleasure in competition and winning: they are the ones that play the most powerful linear decks, either aggro, combo or Tron, and trying to break the game. They are always looking for the most powerful, newest decks.
And then there are the players who find pleasure in outplaying their opponents: they are the ones who enjoy grindy games, interactive games, or decks so complicated that it may take 10-15 minutes to combo off. They are the players who always play Control, and who pushed decks like KCI and Storm... before they became mainstream.
It’s a pro tour, very small meta of people that all play established decks, and they are less worried about draws because there are 2 people to their sides that just have to complete their games. That’s where control is great.
Control has been great at there GP level all year. Why are so many users in this thread turning our understanding of Modern upside down based on a single SCG Open and a Team PT Day 1 breakdown? This is one of the worst cases of biased, tunnelvisioned ban mania I have seen in a long time. Even if we ignore all the GP results so far and focus solely on this GP, control was the second most played Day 1 deck, and we have users spinning that to claim it's secretly not a good strategy. But then those same users note that Tron and Humans and KCI all have comparable shares to control and they are spinning that to mean the decks are viable. The double standard is glaring. To quote Zoolander, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
The only legitimate Modern complaint I can see based on the PT is that Stirrings decks might be too strong. That narrative is supported by the 2018 GP results. Basically every other narrative I've seen in this thread is subjective spin on limited, largely irrelevant Team PT Day 1 data.
It’s a pro tour, very small meta of people that all play established decks, and they are less worried about draws because there are 2 people to their sides that just have to complete their games. That’s where control is great.
Control has been great at there GP level all year. Why are so many users in this thread turning our understanding of Modern upside down based on a single SCG Open and a Team PT Day 1 breakdown? This is one of the worst cases of biased, tunnelvisioned ban mania I have seen in a long time. Even if we ignore all the GP results so far and focus solely on this GP, control was the second most played Day 1 deck, and we have users spinning that to claim it's secretly not a good strategy. But then those same users note that Tron and Humans and KCI all have comparable shares to control and they are spinning that to mean the decks are viable. The double standard is glaring. To quote Zoolander, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
The only legitimate Modern complaint I can see based on the PT is that Stirrings decks might be too strong. That narrative is supported by the 2018 GP results. Basically every other narrative I've seen in this thread is subjective spin on limited, largely irrelevant Team PT Day 1 data.
What gp has it been great at? I don’t think I said anything biased, tunnel visioned or asked/suggest any bans. I/w is good because it’s sideboard is good. You go to fnm’s or small more casual events with u/w and it’s a completely different story. Have you watched how most of nassif’s streams of u/w go lol. Just now vs b/r bridgevine he drew the nuts and won that’s modern.
What gp has it been great at? I don’t think I said anything biased, tunnel visioned or asked/suggest any bans. I/w is good because it’s sideboard is good. You go to fnm’s or small more casual events with u/w and it’s a completely different story. Have you watched how most of nassif’s streams of u/w go lol. Just now vs b/r bridgevine he drew the nuts and won that’s modern.
UWx was spectacular at GP Barcelona. It is merely Tier 1 across the other collective GP. Let's repost all 2018 GP T8 decks again in case anyone missed it.
Again, as I said already, Stirrings decks are clearly amazing and probably problematic. Of all GP T8 2018 decks with 2+ copies, Stirrings decks represent 41% of the total. Lots of Stirrings decks... let's talk about that. But UWx Control is doing just fine. Jeskai is tied for 3rd at GP T8 appearances. UW Control is respectably behind at 3 copies, tied with Affinity, RG Eldrazi, and Abzan.
To be clear, your quote in the above post is not one of the most biased, tunnelvisioned, or ban-maniad posts in the thread. It is offbase, true, but it's just not the worst comment we've read over the past few pages. It's just another example of people trying to discount or minimize UWx Control's success this year. First it was successful at SCG level and people said SCG events weren't representative. Then it was successful on MTGO in Challenges/MOCS/PPTQ events and people said it wasn't reflective of Leagues. Then it went on to be successful at GP events and people said we didn't have Day 2/Day 1 numbers so we couldn't know how successful it is. Now it's the second most played deck in a Team PT Day 1 breakdown, and people said it's only doing well because of the unique team setup (while many, at the same time, say that the other deck standings at that same event indicate true viability). This whole narrative is very biased and we've seen it in this thread for literal months.
Again, as I said already, Stirrings decks are clearly amazing and probably problematic. Of all GP T8 2018 decks with 2+ copies, Stirrings decks represent 41% of the total. Lots of Stirrings decks... let's talk about that.
To be honest, I would vocally say that Faithless Looting is the second glue that holds several uninteractive, unfair, and super explosive graveyard base decks à - la Dredge together(Hollow one, Dredge decks, Vendgevine decks, Bridge from Below decks, Mardu pyromancer decks, Goryo's deck, some copies in GDS as well).
As Niall said, I probably think the red sorcery could be a huge violator also.
All in all, I would only want Ancient Stirrings banned and FL to be on watchlist. That is, because I consider this card one of the most skill rewarding, interesting and difficult cards to play in Modern. But if we want to be objective, this should be up for discussion.
I can confidently say it doesn't have the GP numbers to justify a ban discussion yet. I'm not sure about MTGO Challenges/MOCS/PPTQs, and I'm definitely not sure about Leagues. All of this suggests it's really premature to discuss the card.
Stirrings, however, is indisputably the best Modern cantrip by results, and it's not super close. Gx Tron isn't quite as successful in 2018 GP as URx Twin was in 2015 GP (14.2% vs. 17.8%), but it's definitely the only deck coming close to Twin's previous success. This doesn't even count any aggregation of Stirrings deck. If the rest of 2018 follows the first half's precedent, I expect Gx Tron and/or Stirrings decks broadly will continue to be the biggest finishers all year by a significant margin.
EDIT: Was that Turn 3?
Spirits
It went downhill because we're pointing out just how busted two decks are that are both abusing notoriously and historically busted cards that have been at the center of conversation for months?
Also, no, PT results weigh heavier on Wizards than random GP or MTGO results. The PT has always brought along a much higher magnifying glass with it.
I dont know if it looks bad, but this is something pretty new. Whoever created this has some real next level's going on in their head.
Yeah...going to sleeve up the ol' Rest in Peace...
Spirits
Time to sell mine I think.
Spirits
The funny thing is, and I'm sure I've said this too many times already, that when Golgari Grave-Troll was unbanned, the Dredge deck I tried had Vengevine and Gravecrawler. It ended up not being as successful as the regular Dredge deck, but maybe I shouldn't have given up so soon?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits
I dont know, format seems to be speeding up, and becoming more degenerate. Will be very interesting if we get some meta/performance numbers on Day 2.
Spirits
Also the deck is fairly poor against creature decks with some sort of evasion, like Bogles, Affinity, Infect, Elves... Probably a great pick for this weekend with the pros picking the more established “tier” decks
If there are two things this thread is good at it's jumping the shark and extrapolating from incomplete-
Modern: Decks I'm playing right now:
G Mono Green Tron (34-10-3 paper record, only SCG/Regionals/PPTQ record)
C Eldrazi Tron (9-5)
UG Infect
RW Burn
Let's see how this "OP" vengevine deck shakes out or if "OP" ancient stirrings decks take it down a peg
Also unban preordain because it should be unbanned.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/pt25a/modern-metagame-breakdown-2018-08-03
Spirits
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
And then there are the players who find pleasure in outplaying their opponents: they are the ones who enjoy grindy games, interactive games, or decks so complicated that it may take 10-15 minutes to combo off. They are the players who always play Control, and who pushed decks like KCI and Storm... before they became mainstream.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Control has been great at there GP level all year. Why are so many users in this thread turning our understanding of Modern upside down based on a single SCG Open and a Team PT Day 1 breakdown? This is one of the worst cases of biased, tunnelvisioned ban mania I have seen in a long time. Even if we ignore all the GP results so far and focus solely on this GP, control was the second most played Day 1 deck, and we have users spinning that to claim it's secretly not a good strategy. But then those same users note that Tron and Humans and KCI all have comparable shares to control and they are spinning that to mean the decks are viable. The double standard is glaring. To quote Zoolander, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
The only legitimate Modern complaint I can see based on the PT is that Stirrings decks might be too strong. That narrative is supported by the 2018 GP results. Basically every other narrative I've seen in this thread is subjective spin on limited, largely irrelevant Team PT Day 1 data.
People just prefer Bolts.
Spirits
What gp has it been great at? I don’t think I said anything biased, tunnel visioned or asked/suggest any bans. I/w is good because it’s sideboard is good. You go to fnm’s or small more casual events with u/w and it’s a completely different story. Have you watched how most of nassif’s streams of u/w go lol. Just now vs b/r bridgevine he drew the nuts and won that’s modern.
UWx was spectacular at GP Barcelona. It is merely Tier 1 across the other collective GP. Let's repost all 2018 GP T8 decks again in case anyone missed it.
1. Gx Tron: 8
2. KCI: 6
3. Burn: 4
4. Jeskai Control: 4
5. Affinity: 3
6. Abzan: 3
7. RG Eldrazi: 3
8. UW Control: 3
9. GDS: 2
10. Humans: 2
11. Mardu: 2
12. Elves: 2
13. Bogles: 2
14. Amulet Titan: 2
Again, as I said already, Stirrings decks are clearly amazing and probably problematic. Of all GP T8 2018 decks with 2+ copies, Stirrings decks represent 41% of the total. Lots of Stirrings decks... let's talk about that. But UWx Control is doing just fine. Jeskai is tied for 3rd at GP T8 appearances. UW Control is respectably behind at 3 copies, tied with Affinity, RG Eldrazi, and Abzan.
To be clear, your quote in the above post is not one of the most biased, tunnelvisioned, or ban-maniad posts in the thread. It is offbase, true, but it's just not the worst comment we've read over the past few pages. It's just another example of people trying to discount or minimize UWx Control's success this year. First it was successful at SCG level and people said SCG events weren't representative. Then it was successful on MTGO in Challenges/MOCS/PPTQ events and people said it wasn't reflective of Leagues. Then it went on to be successful at GP events and people said we didn't have Day 2/Day 1 numbers so we couldn't know how successful it is. Now it's the second most played deck in a Team PT Day 1 breakdown, and people said it's only doing well because of the unique team setup (while many, at the same time, say that the other deck standings at that same event indicate true viability). This whole narrative is very biased and we've seen it in this thread for literal months.
I can confidently say it doesn't have the GP numbers to justify a ban discussion yet. I'm not sure about MTGO Challenges/MOCS/PPTQs, and I'm definitely not sure about Leagues. All of this suggests it's really premature to discuss the card.
Stirrings, however, is indisputably the best Modern cantrip by results, and it's not super close. Gx Tron isn't quite as successful in 2018 GP as URx Twin was in 2015 GP (14.2% vs. 17.8%), but it's definitely the only deck coming close to Twin's previous success. This doesn't even count any aggregation of Stirrings deck. If the rest of 2018 follows the first half's precedent, I expect Gx Tron and/or Stirrings decks broadly will continue to be the biggest finishers all year by a significant margin.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate