Sure I don't think you are wrong but do you think WOTC really understands what makes Modern Popular? Or to put it another way do you think they agree with your position?
Wizards in general? No. The people who crafted Alpine Moon, Damping Sphere, and Amulet of Safekeeping? Yes.
Seems like a good time to unban Stoneforge Mystic. Humans might have a really hard time answering T3 Batterskull unless they Reflector Mage the token. Even that isn't a great answer to it, though!
I agree it’s a good time to unban SFM, but humans has other options. Meddling Mage or Kitesail Freebooter can prevent someone from playing a SFM on turn 2 if humans is on the play. Also, humans can sideboard in Hostage Taker and Reclamation Sage. In any case, this is more proof that SFM, like Jace and BBE, wouldn’t break the format.
How does Kitesail Freebooter stop someone from playing Stoneforge Mystic? It can't exile creatures.
It could exile the equipment that the Stoneforge searches up, though.
The reason SFM will never see modern play is the same reasoning that banned Birthing Pod. Every time WotC prints a new equipment they'll have to consider SFM and ultimately making SFM more and more powerful or equipments weaker to balance SFM's influence. It's just not logical to suggest nerfing an entire subtype for one card. This is why they banned Pod. This is why they'll stay banned. It will warp the format and eventually just get banned again if it ever should appear which is just silly pants sandwich hat.
The reason SFM will never see modern play is the same reasoning that banned Birthing Pod. Every time WotC prints a new equipment they'll have to consider SFM and ultimately making SFM more and more powerful or equipments weaker to balance SFM's influence. It's just not logical to suggest nerfing an entire subtype for one card. This is why they banned Pod. This is why they'll stay banned. It will warp the format and eventually just get banned again if it ever should appear which is just silly pants sandwich hat.
But Pod worked with a much wider range of cards that show up a lot more. Wizards has already said that Batterskull and the Swords (much less those above them) are way stronger than they want Equipment to be, and they will not print more on that level. Effectively they have stated that new Equipment cards are going to suck HARD, forever and ever, so that argument with SFM doesn't work. like if they said 'all new direct damage spells will cost 3' then Burn players would never have to check direct damage spells again
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
The reason SFM will never see modern play is the same reasoning that banned Birthing Pod. Every time WotC prints a new equipment they'll have to consider SFM and ultimately making SFM more and more powerful or equipments weaker to balance SFM's influence. It's just not logical to suggest nerfing an entire subtype for one card. This is why they banned Pod. This is why they'll stay banned. It will warp the format and eventually just get banned again if it ever should appear which is just silly pants sandwich hat.
Which has been more commonly printed in the past 5 years, super strong CREATURES or super strong EQUIPMENT? Let me give you a hint - nobody outside of Pauper players and Limited players know any of the equipment printed in the past 5 years while everyone can name some fairly busted creatures like Siege Rhino, Restoration Angel, Emrakul, the Promised End, the Scarab God, and many, many more.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Only 8 removal Main? And 3 side? THX a lot...so easy...we all need 8 removal Main except humans. If we play all 4 ghost quarter and 4 tectonic edge, and 3 damping sphere Side... tron is not a Problem too. Seems solutions are so easy. Maybe 8 gravehate main too vs. All this gravebased decks? What do you think why we cannot do this all gkouro?
Being asked to run 8 main decked removal cards is not nearly as bad as the other examples you presented. If you're running Control or Midrange, you should already be running 8-12 removal spells main deck just by the nature of those decks. Moreover, even if you're not running Midrange or Control, Burn by design is full of spells to throw at small creatures if you really need to, more traditional aggro decks like Affinity can trade off creatures or maneuver themselves into positions with better tempo, and combo decks can just straight-up ignore the board and kill the opponent. The only decks I can really think of that can't jam a lot of removal into the deck or creatures to deal with combat are Ramp decks, which seems perfectly acceptable and something they can deal with post-side.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Decks
Modern: UWUW Control UBRGrixis Shadow URIzzet Phoenix
Ok, storm plays now 4 grapeshot and 4 bolt, merfolk needs only 4 dismember and 4 spatial, death and taxes 4 path and 4 dismember, coco the same... and so on...how many needs humans? Nothing? seems fair. Problem is NOT removal...its creatures with all you need. They are to many good creatures...spells with bodys all in one. We need Hate, because good creatures for humans coming all sets now. Manaproblems dont exist for them anymore too and this is for me the real unfair Problem.we even cant counter this nonsense. When it is to much? Begin printing Hate now bevore to late
The reason SFM will never see modern play is the same reasoning that banned Birthing Pod. Every time WotC prints a new equipment they'll have to consider SFM and ultimately making SFM more and more powerful or equipments weaker to balance SFM's influence. It's just not logical to suggest nerfing an entire subtype for one card. This is why they banned Pod. This is why they'll stay banned. It will warp the format and eventually just get banned again if it ever should appear which is just silly pants sandwich hat.
But Pod worked with a much wider range of cards that show up a lot more. Wizards has already said that Batterskull and the Swords (much less those above them) are way stronger than they want Equipment to be, and they will not print more on that level. Effectively they have stated that new Equipment cards are going to suck HARD, forever and ever, so that argument with SFM doesn't work. like if they said 'all new direct damage spells will cost 3' then Burn players would never have to check direct damage spells again
To be fair, they said that about Batterskull and the Swords cycle a LONG time ago. In that time they've gone back on multiple other things they've said. At some point there will, by necessity, be stronger equipment printed. That shouldn't be a factor in determining whether to unban SFM now, though.
Ok, storm plays now 4 grapeshot and 4 bolt, merfolk needs only 4 dismember and 4 spatial, death and taxes 4 path and 4 dismember, coco the same... and so on...how many needs humans? Nothing? seems fair. Problem is NOT removal...its creatures with all you need. They are to many good creatures...spells with bodys all in one. We need Hate, because good creatures for humans coming all sets now. Manaproblems dont exist for them anymore too and this is for me the real unfair Problem.we even cant counter this nonsense. When it is to much? Begin printing Hate now bevore to late
Humans already has hate that ruins them; it's called Torpor Orb and Hushwing Gryff. After one of those lands they literally just have a bunch of bad creatures.
Sometimes winning isn't always about removing all your opponent's creatures. Sometimes all you need is to stop their most powerful affects so you can out value them.
I'm pretty firmly in the "We have plenty of creature hate" camp, but I'm also in the "Modern is too wide and sideboard lottery is real" camp.
Complaining will never end… but that’s because the format will never be absolutely perfect. Everyone sort of has their own idea of what a “perfect” modern means and it will rarely match what the next player has in mind.
Conversation about format problems is good as long as it’s constructive though, even when the format is doing pretty well. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with discussing the potential for more targeted hate cards for specific strategies. The format does a better job of regulating itself when it has access to more safety valves.
People will always find something to complain about - that's the nature of hobbies.
With that, these are some of the most tame complaints this thread has ever faced as modern is in a relatively healthy cyclical metagame. Some people will get bent out of shape about Stirrings, or humans, or that Twin isn't around, but compared to how it's been that really isn't too bad.
3 colors have great sweepers that basically win you the game against Humans, as well as most decks running some spot removal that can answer Humans as well as a variety of other Combo Enablers and aggressive tribal decks. Stop complaining because they played Meddling Mage naming Grapeshot and you didn't feel like interacting that day; you have no one to blame but yourself.
I just want to note again for the record, I'm not 'complaining' and I'm not asking for a ban. I'm trying to look ahead, at a possible scenario, and suggesting something which could mitigate risk.
The exact opposite of 'ban mania' and complaining.
I'm also waiting for the day when the creature nonsense creeps into blue and we get something like Preordain on a 1/1 for U. That would be nice with all the junk everyone else gets stapled onto to a body. Just make sure it's not also a Human!
I just want to note again for the record, I'm not 'complaining' and I'm not asking for a ban. I'm trying to look ahead, at a possible scenario, and suggesting something which could mitigate risk.
The exact opposite of 'ban mania' and complaining.
I appreciate that you're framing the suggestion of more flexible tribal hate as a future-looking pressure valve, not a desperate current need. I'm not entirely convinced it would be easy to walk that thin line between "playable" and "deck killer", but I'm not convinced it's impossible either. There's definitely a challenge to properly costing a new Curse of Death's Hold.
At two mana it's almost an "I win" card on the play versus some tribal (at least Elves and Goblins, off the top of my head). At three mana it might be too slow. Although, in either case I'm not sure it'd even find sideboard play unless we reach a weird point in time where tribal decks are dominant. Might be safe on that grounds (in Modern at least) on that basis alone.
I just want to note again for the record, I'm not 'complaining' and I'm not asking for a ban. I'm trying to look ahead, at a possible scenario, and suggesting something which could mitigate risk.
The exact opposite of 'ban mania' and complaining.
I appreciate that you're framing the suggestion of more flexible tribal hate as a future-looking pressure valve, not a desperate current need. I'm not entirely convinced it would be easy to walk that thin line between "playable" and "deck killer", but I'm not convinced it's impossible either. There's definitely a challenge to properly costing a new Curse of Death's Hold.
At two mana it's almost an "I win" card on the play versus some tribal (at least Elves and Goblins, off the top of my head). At three mana it might be too slow. Although, in either case I'm not sure it'd even find sideboard play unless we reach a weird point in time where tribal decks are dominant. Might be safe on that grounds (in Modern at least) on that basis alone.
Certainly a risk. Damping Sphere and Alpine Moon have yet to crush any deck into oblivion though.
A two mana tribal -1/-1 kills on turn two (imagine on the play!):
- Most of the humans. (Human deck useless.)
- Most elves. (Elves deck dead.)
- Snapcaster mage. (GDS slightly affected.)
- Young pyromancer, Delver of Secrets, spirit tokens. (Delver decks dead, Mardu Pyro almost dead.)
- Vizier of remedies. (Turbo Vizier deck entirely dead, CoCo decks hampered.)
- Goblin tokens. (Half of storm win-con.)
- Myr retriever. (I don't think Ironwork combo can win without it.)
And that's just off the top of my head. That card would be busted. In the usual current meta, it's a maindeck card that you side out against Tron, Jeskai, storm, like the usual current main deck removal.
I just want to note again for the record, I'm not 'complaining' and I'm not asking for a ban. I'm trying to look ahead, at a possible scenario, and suggesting something which could mitigate risk.
The exact opposite of 'ban mania' and complaining.
I appreciate that you're framing the suggestion of more flexible tribal hate as a future-looking pressure valve, not a desperate current need. I'm not entirely convinced it would be easy to walk that thin line between "playable" and "deck killer", but I'm not convinced it's impossible either. There's definitely a challenge to properly costing a new Curse of Death's Hold.
At two mana it's almost an "I win" card on the play versus some tribal (at least Elves and Goblins, off the top of my head). At three mana it might be too slow. Although, in either case I'm not sure it'd even find sideboard play unless we reach a weird point in time where tribal decks are dominant. Might be safe on that grounds (in Modern at least) on that basis alone.
Certainly a risk. Damping Sphere and Alpine Moon have yet to crush any deck into oblivion though.
True, although they're more situational cards used for fighting decks already used to answering hate (Tron, Storm, KCI). Not sure if that should come into consideration or not. Another minor difference -- they're "reversible" hate. If an opponent answers the card, your opponent is essentially unharmed. With something like Engineered Plague you're likely to have killed a few creatures; potential for card advantage there, unlike with Sphere or Moon.
A lot of things to consider, although I suppose the lesson from recent hate cards is that (absent a critical mass) they're more likely to shift match-ups a few percentage points than warp the entire meta.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Wizards in general? No. The people who crafted Alpine Moon, Damping Sphere, and Amulet of Safekeeping? Yes.
Spirits
It could exile the equipment that the Stoneforge searches up, though.
But Pod worked with a much wider range of cards that show up a lot more. Wizards has already said that Batterskull and the Swords (much less those above them) are way stronger than they want Equipment to be, and they will not print more on that level. Effectively they have stated that new Equipment cards are going to suck HARD, forever and ever, so that argument with SFM doesn't work. like if they said 'all new direct damage spells will cost 3' then Burn players would never have to check direct damage spells again
Which has been more commonly printed in the past 5 years, super strong CREATURES or super strong EQUIPMENT? Let me give you a hint - nobody outside of Pauper players and Limited players know any of the equipment printed in the past 5 years while everyone can name some fairly busted creatures like Siege Rhino, Restoration Angel, Emrakul, the Promised End, the Scarab God, and many, many more.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Modern:
UWUW Control
UBRGrixis Shadow
URIzzet Phoenix
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Sometimes winning isn't always about removing all your opponent's creatures. Sometimes all you need is to stop their most powerful affects so you can out value them.
I'm pretty firmly in the "We have plenty of creature hate" camp, but I'm also in the "Modern is too wide and sideboard lottery is real" camp.
"Reveal a Dragon"
....
No, probably not.
Spirits
Conversation about format problems is good as long as it’s constructive though, even when the format is doing pretty well. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with discussing the potential for more targeted hate cards for specific strategies. The format does a better job of regulating itself when it has access to more safety valves.
With that, these are some of the most tame complaints this thread has ever faced as modern is in a relatively healthy cyclical metagame. Some people will get bent out of shape about Stirrings, or humans, or that Twin isn't around, but compared to how it's been that really isn't too bad.
The exact opposite of 'ban mania' and complaining.
Spirits
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I appreciate that you're framing the suggestion of more flexible tribal hate as a future-looking pressure valve, not a desperate current need. I'm not entirely convinced it would be easy to walk that thin line between "playable" and "deck killer", but I'm not convinced it's impossible either. There's definitely a challenge to properly costing a new Curse of Death's Hold.
At two mana it's almost an "I win" card on the play versus some tribal (at least Elves and Goblins, off the top of my head). At three mana it might be too slow. Although, in either case I'm not sure it'd even find sideboard play unless we reach a weird point in time where tribal decks are dominant. Might be safe on that grounds (in Modern at least) on that basis alone.
Considering the amount and diversity of 1 and 2 mana "I win" hate cards that already exist in Modern, that should be totally reasonable.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Certainly a risk. Damping Sphere and Alpine Moon have yet to crush any deck into oblivion though.
Spirits
http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37526_Its-Time-To-Kill-Ironworks.html
She makes some good points for a ban from the deck including similarities to the already banned eggs deck and several other considerations.
Thoughts?
- Most of the humans. (Human deck useless.)
- Most elves. (Elves deck dead.)
- Snapcaster mage. (GDS slightly affected.)
- Young pyromancer, Delver of Secrets, spirit tokens. (Delver decks dead, Mardu Pyro almost dead.)
- Vizier of remedies. (Turbo Vizier deck entirely dead, CoCo decks hampered.)
- Goblin tokens. (Half of storm win-con.)
- Myr retriever. (I don't think Ironwork combo can win without it.)
And that's just off the top of my head. That card would be busted. In the usual current meta, it's a maindeck card that you side out against Tron, Jeskai, storm, like the usual current main deck removal.
EDIT: on top that in multiple it's even crazier.
True, although they're more situational cards used for fighting decks already used to answering hate (Tron, Storm, KCI). Not sure if that should come into consideration or not. Another minor difference -- they're "reversible" hate. If an opponent answers the card, your opponent is essentially unharmed. With something like Engineered Plague you're likely to have killed a few creatures; potential for card advantage there, unlike with Sphere or Moon.
A lot of things to consider, although I suppose the lesson from recent hate cards is that (absent a critical mass) they're more likely to shift match-ups a few percentage points than warp the entire meta.