Yeah I'm honestly not sure why Wizards prints 3 Spirits in M19. It is not even close to enough for Constructed Spirits, but it can often affect Modern. As for Modern Bant and UW Spirits, I think they are fine with Supreme Phantom. It does give me another reason not to play Grishoalbrand (in addition to Humans), but I think it's fine for the meta.
Also I heard that Bant Spirits was already legit. Caleb Durward has an 80% win rate with it on MTGO from what I heard. The only decks that I had close to that type of win rate for any long period all ended up getting banned eventually. (Dredge at 78% and Eldrazi at 84%)
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Yeah but those tribes were close to making it anyway. Elves is more a terror in Legacy then it is Modern. Bant Spirits has been around for awhile and needed one Lord to push it higher up. Merfolk has faded back into the pack over time. Goblins are around, I guess. Still besides Spirits most of those are iconic tribes for one of the colors so it makes sense they have a higher concentration of good low curve creatures.
Granted I would suggest you buckle up...I think WOTC will go for buffing up tribes since creatures and walkers are the heart of magic right now...enchantments never really made it (outside of Bogles), artifacts can always count on a random broken set while be historically strong, and spells have faded from the forefront.
Realistically, Wizards will not stop printing good creatures, and unless they start keeping an eye on things, they will not stop printing Humans. What I hope for is not a ban, but some 'hey here is a 1cmc hate card for tribal', that is clearly targeted at decks like Merfolk, Humans, even Eldrazi.
But more seriously, they could always reprint Engineered Plague, although that's 3 rather than 1. Though it does have the unfortunate effect of hurting tribal decks that no one sees as a problem.
Yeah I'm honestly not sure why Wizards prints 3 Spirits in M19. It is not even close to enough for Constructed Spirits, but it can often affect Modern. As for Modern Bant and UW Spirits, I think they are fine with Supreme Phantom. It does give me another reason not to play Grishoalbrand (in addition to Humans), but I think it's fine for the meta.
Also I heard that Bant Spirits was already legit. Caleb Durward has an 80% win rate with it on MTGO from what I heard. The only decks that I had close to that type of win rate for any long period all ended up getting banned eventually. (Dredge at 78% and Eldrazi at 84%)
Yeah, I do think spirits was decent and is now in the 'good' realm. I just won't play a creature deck. I think there will be more tribal support, but I don't see a need for it.
Engineered Plague at 1, would be awesome.
At this point, Modern is all over the place. I wouldn't call anything but Humans, and Tron 'tier one' in terms of representation, but the power level of a ton of decks is all over the place.
My last game of the night was against GW Druid. I bolted the druid turn 2, then turn 3 goes crazy with a 'free' Allosaurous Rider (sp?) into Eldritch Evolution, fetching Iona. At that point I assume they thought I would scoop after naming blue...but I untapped and cast Madcap, and they bailed on the match.
But more seriously, they could always reprint Engineered Plague, although that's 3 rather than 1. Though it does have the unfortunate effect of hurting tribal decks that no one sees as a problem.
Realistically, Wizards will not stop printing good creatures, and unless they start keeping an eye on things, they will not stop printing Humans. What I hope for is not a ban, but some 'hey here is a 1cmc hate card for tribal', that is clearly targeted at decks like Merfolk, Humans, even Eldrazi.
But more seriously, they could always reprint Engineered Plague, although that's 3 rather than 1. Though it does have the unfortunate effect of hurting tribal decks that no one sees as a problem.
That's just what happens when you get a busted deck. Either they ban something, or they print some kinda hate that will probably have splash damage on similar archetypes. Artifact based decks have it rough because of Affinity, but imagine if we didn't have sufficient artifact hate in Modern. Engineered Plague looks interesting, that's certainly an option.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Funny enough that probably chokes out other tribes more then Humans. Praise Reflector Mage. Engineering Plague that is Humans is long way from controlling enough of the Meta to warrant Frailty.
When I look at the results like they did at starcity open I am concerned about its strength but then I look at the deck and there is just nothing there that's ban worthy, its like a 5 colour hate bears deck, truely something much better than its parts.
Luckily, they made Merfolk just "bad enough" not to break it in Modern. I actually thought that the UG Lord and possibly the 2U 2/4 with multiple abilities might have pushed Merfolk too far.
Ixalan may have been a weak Constructed set, but it was a very fast Draft format for whatever that's worth.
*Damn, I forgot that the Bugler doesn't only search for Humans specifically. It's any creature 2 power or less. That's really strong. So if you whiff, you most likely siphoned through some useless lands (or may have missed out a Mantis Rider, which admittedly is bad)?
In the standard 37 human list, you miss on 4 Mantis Riders and close to miss on Hierarch/Champion. Your chance of completely missing is 3.6%. Your chance of effectively missing is 10.7%.
Buglers good, but it's not free. Among other things it means making deck choices like giving up big Thalias and Malcontents.
Seems like a good time to unban Stoneforge Mystic. Humans might have a really hard time answering T3 Batterskull unless they Reflector Mage the token. Even that isn't a great answer to it, though!
Who cares about Humans' performance at a single Open? Humans was just another top tier Modern deck at the recent GP and major MTGO events, I.e. the only venues that matter for a banlist perspective. If we see Humans have a similar GP performance to its Indy Open performance, then we'll talk. Until and unless that happens, it's just not a worthwhile topic, especially based on a single Open finish. We've already seen and mostly admitted SCG Opens don't necessarily reflect the wider format or even the GP format. Now Humans does well again and we suddenly revert to old alarmism? Not a good line of argument. Especially when we've seen the metagame adapt to Humans in a big way already.
It's fine to have Humans on a mental watch list, but let's wait until a GP or sustained MTGO Challenge/MOCS/PTQ success to make strong claims in public.
25% is enough reason for talking about humans and be alarmed
At a GP, yes. At a random SCG Open, no. Tron and KCI have had a much more sustained presence for months longer at significant GP events, and those two decks have largely fallen off this thread's radar in recent weeks. If Humans' SCG performance predicted and/or led to GP success of a similar order, that's a major red flag and then I'm all for this level of ban talk. But one Open after months of merely Tier 1 performance? Humans just tracks as another strong deck across basically all 2018 data points we have. Not a worthwhile conversation, at least not at this current level of intensity and certainty.
Ugh. Please guys. Humans is what we've been asking for for years - a solid fair deck that helps police the format but has weaknesses to exploit. Sorry it doesn't play snapcaster.
Twin got years. Give humans half the time twin got please.
It even loses (ish) to the same decks as twin (bigger snap decks and jund).
Level and intensity is to less. Tell me any deck with 25% in the last 2 years? I am alarmed
December 2017 saw GP OKC, an actual GP and not a random Open, with 3 Gx Tron in the T8, a total of 6 in the T16, and a total of 8 in the T32. Truly awful. And then things got better as the metagame adapted. Also, again, that was an actual GP that Wizards cares about for banlist purposes. It was not an Open with 500 fewer players that we have already established is not often representative of the GP/MTGO meta.
Im pretty sure the February 2017 SCG Indy Open was also warped, but towards GDS instead. It was totally rampant for months and then died down. That's what Modern tends to do: stabilize. This Humans alarmism at a single Open is not justified.
Ugh. Please guys. Humans is what we've been asking for for years - a solid fair deck that helps police the format but has weaknesses to exploit. Sorry it doesn't play snapcaster.
Twin got years. Give humans half the time twin got please.
It even loses (ish) to the same decks as twin (bigger snap decks and jund).
25% is enough reason for talking about humans and be alarmed
At a GP, yes. At a random SCG Open, no. Tron and KCI have had a much more sustained presence for months longer at significant GP events, and those two decks have largely fallen off this thread's radar in recent weeks. If Humans' SCG performance predicted and/or led to GP success of a similar order, that's a major red flag and then I'm all for this level of ban talk. But one Open after months of merely Tier 1 performance? Humans just tracks as another strong deck across basically all 2018 data points we have. Not a worthwhile conversation, at least not at this current level of intensity and certainty.
agreed. humans performing well in one single small event is nothing to worry about. but the current metagame also proved that the KCI+ancient stirring phobia is a little over. Tron continues to perform well, but not to an oppressive extend. I have to admit that i was among those who really wanted to see a stirring ban, but now I just want a SFM/preordain unban
Ugh. Please guys. Humans is what we've been asking for for years - a solid fair deck that helps police the format but has weaknesses to exploit. Sorry it doesn't play snapcaster.
Twin got years. Give humans half the time twin got please.
It even loses (ish) to the same decks as twin (bigger snap decks and jund).
Some people just want twin back lol, and unless that happens or jund is the #1 deck by far these types won't be happy with anything else being at the top of the heap. I like humans being in the format. It is a cool deck with tribal synergy that has built-in combo hate and clear weaknesses. Plus, and I feel like I make this argument every six months going back to tron, storm, grixis shadow, etc, whenever one of these decks rises, the weaknesses are well-known enough that the meta shifts slightly. I'd argue that Humans had been a bit down the past couple months as more and more UWx control rose due to good matchups. In fact, I'd argue blue control is the best it has been since the twin ban specifically because of humans and hollow one being both popular and decent matchups.
If Humans gets banned, combo becomes better - fact. Thalia and Meddling Mage are the sole reasons that storm has been a solid option but not great. If you want to keep cheering for a ban, understand the ripples that will go outward that will lead to the next set of gripes.
Level and intensity is to less. Tell me any deck with 25% in the last 2 years? I am alarmed
December 2017 saw GP OKC, an actual GP and not a random Open, with 3 Gx Tron in the T8, a total of 6 in the T16, and a total of 8 in the T32. Truly awful. And then things got better as the metagame adapted. Also, again, that was an actual GP that Wizards cares about for banlist purposes. It was not an Open with 500 fewer players that we have already established is not often representative of the GP/MTGO meta.
Im pretty sure the February 2017 SCG Indy Open was also warped, but towards GDS instead. It was totally rampant for months and then died down. That's what Modern tends to do: stabilize. This Humans alarmism at a single Open is not justified.
yeah tron. Nice example....did we talk about stirrings? Seems so
Ugh. Please guys. Humans is what we've been asking for for years - a solid fair deck that helps police the format but has weaknesses to exploit. Sorry it doesn't play snapcaster.
Twin got years. Give humans half the time twin got please.
It even loses (ish) to the same decks as twin (bigger snap decks and jund).
Some people just want twin back lol, and unless that happens or jund is the #1 deck by far these types won't be happy with anything else being at the top of the heap. I like humans being in the format. It is a cool deck with tribal synergy that has built-in combo hate and clear weaknesses. Plus, and I feel like I make this argument every six months going back to tron, storm, grixis shadow, etc, whenever one of these decks rises, the weaknesses are well-known enough that the meta shifts slightly. I'd argue that Humans had been a bit down the past couple months as more and more UWx control rose due to good matchups. In fact, I'd argue blue control is the best it has been since the twin ban specifically because of humans and hollow one being both popular and decent matchups.
If Humans gets banned, combo becomes better - fact. Thalia and Meddling Mage are the sole reasons that storm has been a solid option but not great. If you want to keep cheering for a ban, understand the ripples that will go outward that will lead to the next set of gripes.
i dont vote for twin unban and i dont will this, so dont talk to me please like it is a twin people blue Problem. I think we have some reason, since some months, to talk about humans and his metashare/succes. Talking means not Banning, but i dont sea any reason not to talk about humans. I See the danger in rising humans and his power. Time for some printing of Hate without hurting other tribals
Level and intensity is to less. Tell me any deck with 25% in the last 2 years? I am alarmed
December 2017 saw GP OKC, an actual GP and not a random Open, with 3 Gx Tron in the T8, a total of 6 in the T16, and a total of 8 in the T32. Truly awful. And then things got better as the metagame adapted. Also, again, that was an actual GP that Wizards cares about for banlist purposes. It was not an Open with 500 fewer players that we have already established is not often representative of the GP/MTGO meta.
Im pretty sure the February 2017 SCG Indy Open was also warped, but towards GDS instead. It was totally rampant for months and then died down. That's what Modern tends to do: stabilize. This Humans alarmism at a single Open is not justified.
yeah tron. Nice example....did we talk about stirrings? Seems so
We stopped talking about Stirrings because the format adapted. Now we get a strong Humans perfromance at an Open, not even a GP, and a few people lose their minds. That's totally unreasonable. Wait for GP or MTGO results. We dont need multiple pages of Humans ban fear and banmongering based on a single Open.
Speaking of Opens, let's again look at GDS at SCG Indy 2017. About 20% Day 2 share. 2 copies in T8, 4 T16, 9 in T32. GDS went on to have very strong performance for months, everyone cried for bans (including the otherwise rational LSV), aaaand then it died down and the format shifted. It's easy to go ban crazy if we look at a single Open. Look at the big picture instead. Wait for GP and MTGO results and then we can talk.
Ugh. Please guys. Humans is what we've been asking for for years - a solid fair deck that helps police the format but has weaknesses to exploit. Sorry it doesn't play snapcaster.
Twin got years. Give humans half the time twin got please.
It even loses (ish) to the same decks as twin (bigger snap decks and jund).
Yeah....not so much.
I never asked for a better Merfolk. I never asked for a nut draw turn 3/4 aggro deck with stapled free protection. I never asked for near perfect rainbow mana with bonus uncounterable rider text.
Please don't even bring up Twin in this context, it's like Twitch chat telling me Land, Land, Land + Karn is 'a control deck'.
Again, I don't want a ban, but we will see a tribal hate card, just like we saw Storm and Tron hate.
Humans was on the decline the last few weeks. Now it seems to be back at one event. All you can do in such a case is to nominate Humans as deck of the week.
are you sure? Or only an opinion. Please go check again. Tron 33 stars (mtg top 8 ) and humans WITHOUT this event 32 stars and this month only....the weeks you say it was bad. How it will be if good weeks? So talking about tron is ok, but humans are only flavor? Bevore such words, allways check it please ( was an easy and not deep calculate in 2 minutes). Seems people loves the illusion to have a Chance while tron dont give you this illusion...but they are both on the same powerlevel so its ok talking humans now if its ok talking tron and it is not only since this weekend
Elves, Humans, Merfolk, and with ONE CARD Spirits goes from 'meh' to 'legit'.
Thats all I'm saying. It takes a single card, to make a tribe a thing once the critical mass has been reached.
Spirits
Also I heard that Bant Spirits was already legit. Caleb Durward has an 80% win rate with it on MTGO from what I heard. The only decks that I had close to that type of win rate for any long period all ended up getting banned eventually. (Dredge at 78% and Eldrazi at 84%)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Granted I would suggest you buckle up...I think WOTC will go for buffing up tribes since creatures and walkers are the heart of magic right now...enchantments never really made it (outside of Bogles), artifacts can always count on a random broken set while be historically strong, and spells have faded from the forefront.
But more seriously, they could always reprint Engineered Plague, although that's 3 rather than 1. Though it does have the unfortunate effect of hurting tribal decks that no one sees as a problem.
Yeah, I do think spirits was decent and is now in the 'good' realm. I just won't play a creature deck. I think there will be more tribal support, but I don't see a need for it.
Engineered Plague at 1, would be awesome.
At this point, Modern is all over the place. I wouldn't call anything but Humans, and Tron 'tier one' in terms of representation, but the power level of a ton of decks is all over the place.
My last game of the night was against GW Druid. I bolted the druid turn 2, then turn 3 goes crazy with a 'free' Allosaurous Rider (sp?) into Eldritch Evolution, fetching Iona. At that point I assume they thought I would scoop after naming blue...but I untapped and cast Madcap, and they bailed on the match.
That's Modern for you.
Spirits
That's just what happens when you get a busted deck. Either they ban something, or they print some kinda hate that will probably have splash damage on similar archetypes. Artifact based decks have it rough because of Affinity, but imagine if we didn't have sufficient artifact hate in Modern. Engineered Plague looks interesting, that's certainly an option.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
The cards that made big difference is unclaimed territory and Kitesail freebooter but its really hard to argue to ban these.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
In the standard 37 human list, you miss on 4 Mantis Riders and close to miss on Hierarch/Champion. Your chance of completely missing is 3.6%. Your chance of effectively missing is 10.7%.
Buglers good, but it's not free. Among other things it means making deck choices like giving up big Thalias and Malcontents.
It's fine to have Humans on a mental watch list, but let's wait until a GP or sustained MTGO Challenge/MOCS/PTQ success to make strong claims in public.
At a GP, yes. At a random SCG Open, no. Tron and KCI have had a much more sustained presence for months longer at significant GP events, and those two decks have largely fallen off this thread's radar in recent weeks. If Humans' SCG performance predicted and/or led to GP success of a similar order, that's a major red flag and then I'm all for this level of ban talk. But one Open after months of merely Tier 1 performance? Humans just tracks as another strong deck across basically all 2018 data points we have. Not a worthwhile conversation, at least not at this current level of intensity and certainty.
Twin got years. Give humans half the time twin got please.
It even loses (ish) to the same decks as twin (bigger snap decks and jund).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
December 2017 saw GP OKC, an actual GP and not a random Open, with 3 Gx Tron in the T8, a total of 6 in the T16, and a total of 8 in the T32. Truly awful. And then things got better as the metagame adapted. Also, again, that was an actual GP that Wizards cares about for banlist purposes. It was not an Open with 500 fewer players that we have already established is not often representative of the GP/MTGO meta.
Im pretty sure the February 2017 SCG Indy Open was also warped, but towards GDS instead. It was totally rampant for months and then died down. That's what Modern tends to do: stabilize. This Humans alarmism at a single Open is not justified.
100x this
agreed. humans performing well in one single small event is nothing to worry about. but the current metagame also proved that the KCI+ancient stirring phobia is a little over. Tron continues to perform well, but not to an oppressive extend. I have to admit that i was among those who really wanted to see a stirring ban, but now I just want a SFM/preordain unban
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | URPhoenixUR | UWMiraclesUW |GBRJundGBR | UBFaeriesUB | UBWAd NauseumUBW |GBRWBlueless ShadowGBRW |
MTGA
UBRGrixis ControlUBR | UTempoU
Some people just want twin back lol, and unless that happens or jund is the #1 deck by far these types won't be happy with anything else being at the top of the heap. I like humans being in the format. It is a cool deck with tribal synergy that has built-in combo hate and clear weaknesses. Plus, and I feel like I make this argument every six months going back to tron, storm, grixis shadow, etc, whenever one of these decks rises, the weaknesses are well-known enough that the meta shifts slightly. I'd argue that Humans had been a bit down the past couple months as more and more UWx control rose due to good matchups. In fact, I'd argue blue control is the best it has been since the twin ban specifically because of humans and hollow one being both popular and decent matchups.
If Humans gets banned, combo becomes better - fact. Thalia and Meddling Mage are the sole reasons that storm has been a solid option but not great. If you want to keep cheering for a ban, understand the ripples that will go outward that will lead to the next set of gripes.
We stopped talking about Stirrings because the format adapted. Now we get a strong Humans perfromance at an Open, not even a GP, and a few people lose their minds. That's totally unreasonable. Wait for GP or MTGO results. We dont need multiple pages of Humans ban fear and banmongering based on a single Open.
Speaking of Opens, let's again look at GDS at SCG Indy 2017. About 20% Day 2 share. 2 copies in T8, 4 T16, 9 in T32. GDS went on to have very strong performance for months, everyone cried for bans (including the otherwise rational LSV), aaaand then it died down and the format shifted. It's easy to go ban crazy if we look at a single Open. Look at the big picture instead. Wait for GP and MTGO results and then we can talk.
This is the worst possible way to address format problems.
Also, how would this even be possible?
Yeah....not so much.
I never asked for a better Merfolk. I never asked for a nut draw turn 3/4 aggro deck with stapled free protection. I never asked for near perfect rainbow mana with bonus uncounterable rider text.
Please don't even bring up Twin in this context, it's like Twitch chat telling me Land, Land, Land + Karn is 'a control deck'.
Again, I don't want a ban, but we will see a tribal hate card, just like we saw Storm and Tron hate.
Spirits