I'm not sure that's worse gameplay than any Lantern win, honestly. I'm not sure about percentages, but there are always going to be games won because of misplays/accidents that don't get caught. In today's stream, there was a Humans/Merfolk matchup where the Merfolk player Echoing Truthed the Vials of the other player but didn't bounce his own Vial. He then used that Vial over two turns to amass a winning board state. This isn't an issue that's unique to KCI.
fair enough. i guess i should rephrase to say that i hypothesize that kci games have a higher average number of mistakes on both sides of the table that effect the outcome of the game.
its just a deck that promotes rules lawyering, which is one of the worst aspects of competitive paper magic.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
They said the top 8 was Abzan, 2x Mardu, RG Eldrazi, Monogreen Tron, Amulet Bloom, Krark-Clan Ironworks, and Affinity. I don't think decklists are up yet so it's unclear exactly what builds some of these decks are on.
Friendly reminder that Stirrings is SUPER busted and remains a laughable contradiction with Preordain.
Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
Hardened Scales Affinity, from what I've heard, is better vs. removal than regular Affinity. It is a super interesting deck to me though and as much as it does suck (not really since Preordain is being considered) having another Ancient Stirrings deck in the top 8, I am happy for Hardened Scales Affinity (and Amulet if that makes it too).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
yeah i agree with most of that. what you are saying is technically correct, because at comp+ REL players should know whats going on. if the non-kci player gets blown out because they couldnt see an interaction that is already on-board that is on them. however im just talking about the general magic experience at all levels.
i bring it up because i recently saw a young kid playing some janky beatdown deck against kci (local casual event) and i just had to cringe and shake my head.
so yeah its not enough reason to ban the deck on its own, which is why i hope its too good.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
It's definitely not good to open up opportunities for players to cheat or do game play incorrectly. Hopefully that doesn't happen any more with this deck than any other deck, as 13055 pointed out can happen even with Merfolk vs. Humans.
I personally have a feeling that KCI is not busted. Players don't know how to play against it. Players don't know how to side against it. Even I personally don't know what's the best way to attack it, outside of a quick Slaughter Games, which is terrible vs. the rest of the diverse Modern meta. You would hate yourself if you put in 2-3 Slaughter Games and didn't use them the whole tournament. Likewise if you only had 1-2 Slaughter Games and never drew them when you needed them during sideboarded games. They have answers to any other type of hate. I feel like you hope to goldfish quicker in order to win, outside of getting a hate piece that survives along with a quick/medium clock.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Stony Silence is the best way to beat KCI and since it hits Tron/Affinity it hits a lot of the meta. You can also use other GY hate like Rest in Peace or the classic destroy KCI and Surgical Extraction it away.
Friendly reminder that Stirrings is SUPER busted and remains a laughable contradiction with Preordain.
Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
Well your statement that Stirrings is "SUPER busted" indicated that you were arguing that Ancient Stirrings was too good irrespective of whether Preordain was legal or not.
Friendly reminder that Stirrings is SUPER busted and remains a laughable contradiction with Preordain.
Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
That's silly. Preordain finds any card. Ancient stirrings does not. Similar cards, sure, but very different in application.
I would personally enjoy Preordain and Ponder being unbanned, but to equate them to Stirrings is disingenuous and avoiding specifics. And I will remind all of you that Ban lists are meant to deal with specific things, not specific things and all things like them.
Broad generalizations are the foundation for the constant, petulant, and unrelenting ban talks. WOTC has said that the format is currently fine and therefore I see no reason at this time to throw rhetoric on the internet suggesting otherwise. It's just people (LOUDLY) expressing preferences at this point.
Why not use a "State of Modern" thread to, you know, actually discuss or dissect meta decks and ways to combat them instead of incessantly speculating about bans? This thread continues, for years now, to actually produce anything productive. Like, no one here is like "I think Bontu's Reckoning is better/worse against Humans compared to Verdict/Anger/Pulse because reasons" or "While that might be good against Humans, what about Hollow One? Which card is good and reasonable against both decks and how many to run given an expected set of decks at my Local/PPTQ?"
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
The decline of Surgical Extraction in sideboards has been really noticeable to me. Even in decks like Mardu where it makes a ton of sense have opted for crap like Nihil Spellbomb instead. This is probably a correction that could take KCI down a peg.
Friendly reminder that Stirrings is SUPER busted and remains a laughable contradiction with Preordain.
Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
Well your statement that Stirrings is "SUPER busted" indicated that you were arguing that Ancient Stirrings was too good irrespective of whether Preordain was legal or not.
There are a lot of super busted cards in Modern and I didn't say it should be banned here. I'm on record numerous times in this thread stating that one should be banned OR the other unbanned, not that Stitrings should just be banned. I dont care how Wizards resolves this. As most of you probably know, I vastly prefer unbans to bans. But it should just be resolved one way or the other.
Friendly reminder that Stirrings is SUPER busted and remains a laughable contradiction with Preordain.
Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
That's silly. Preordain finds any card. Ancient stirrings does not. Similar cards, sure, but very different in application.
I would personally enjoy Preordain and Ponder being unbanned, but to equate them to Stirrings is disingenuous and avoiding specifics. Broad generalizations are the foundation for the constant, petulant, and unrelenting ban talks. WOTC has said that the format is currently fine and therefore I see no reason at this time to throw rhetoric on the internet suggesting otherwise. It's just people (LOUDLY) expressing preferences at this point.
Agreed, well said. It's quite noticeable as well when people are lumping decks like Amulet Titan and Lantern in with Tron and KCI as a way to add weight to their claims of the power level of Stirrings. Lantern, for example, has disappeared off the face of the earth, and this will be only the second time Amulet Titan has ever made Top 8 at a GP.
Friendly reminder that Stirrings is SUPER busted and remains a laughable contradiction with Preordain.
Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
That's silly. Preordain finds any card. Ancient stirrings does not. Similar cards, sure, but very different in application.
I would personally enjoy Preordain and Ponder being unbanned, but to equate them to Stirrings is disingenuous and avoiding specifics. Broad generalizations are the foundation for the constant, petulant, and unrelenting ban talks. WOTC has said that the format is currently fine and therefore I see no reason at this time to throw rhetoric on the internet suggesting otherwise. It's just people (LOUDLY) expressing preferences at this point.
Agreed, well said. It's quite noticeable as well when people are lumping decks like Amulet Titan and Lantern in with Tron and KCI as a way to add weight to their claims of the power level of Stirrings. Lantern, for example, has disappeared off the face of the earth, and this will be only the second time Amulet Titan has ever made Top 8 at a GP.
Preordain was not banned for its performance in a single deck. It was banned for its appearance in multiple decks cited as an aggregate. We can definitely analyze Stirrings on the same axis.
Is Lantern actually poorly positioned right now, or did everyone just realize it wasn't fun to play against and started having pity on their opponents?
Is Lantern actually poorly positioned right now, or did everyone just realize it wasn't fun to play against and started having pity on their opponents?
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Titanshift x 4 (one titanbreach)
Burn x 2
UW Control
Hollow One
Seems like a very linear GP.
Nice to see UW Miracles at 10th missing T8 by .01 on breakers. T8 also looks fine with Abzan and 2 Mardu. T8 Stirrings count is dumb; I'll check later how this affects the SV vs. Stirrings tally for the GP/PT.
Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
That's silly. Preordain finds any card. Ancient stirrings does not. Similar cards, sure, but very different in application.
I would personally enjoy Preordain and Ponder being unbanned, but to equate them to Stirrings is disingenuous and avoiding specifics. Broad generalizations are the foundation for the constant, petulant, and unrelenting ban talks. WOTC has said that the format is currently fine and therefore I see no reason at this time to throw rhetoric on the internet suggesting otherwise. It's just people (LOUDLY) expressing preferences at this point.
Agreed, well said. It's quite noticeable as well when people are lumping decks like Amulet Titan and Lantern in with Tron and KCI as a way to add weight to their claims of the power level of Stirrings. Lantern, for example, has disappeared off the face of the earth, and this will be only the second time Amulet Titan has ever made Top 8 at a GP.
Preordain was not banned for its performance in a single deck. It was banned for its appearance in multiple decks cited as an aggregate. We can definitely analyze Stirrings on the same axis.
It's poor analysis. Ancient Stirrings is not Preordain, and the constant false equivalency only works to cheapen the argument. Preordain is a card with a flat power level, and the consistency it provides is the same regardless of the blue deck it's put in. Ancient Stirrings level of power is entirely dependent on the colorless deck that is utilizing it, and this is entirely why the card should not be banned. Casting Stirrings to pull a Reality Smasher out of your deck is demonstrably less powerful than pulling a Scrap Trawler out of a KCI deck.
If Tron and KCI are oppressively running rampant over tournaments (this remains to be seen), then target the cards that actually make the deck work. Ban KCI itself if that's the case. Banning a consistency tool for a bunch of fringe decks isn't how your facilitate a healthy meta game.
For the record, I think Preordain should be unbanned. There's already a ton of variance in Magic that not allowing decks to utilize effective consistency tools is a piss poor way to manage power levels in your meta game.
Problem is, Blue Control decks don't seem to need help at the moment. I think UWx Control is tier 1 for the first time since a long, long time(maybe from mclauren jeskai control's era). So, I think Wizards does not feel forced to unban Preordain.
I mean, I prefer this over the other probably, but I just see Ancient Stirrings being banned as the easy solution for Wizards and the safest thing to do.
This is not to say that Stirrings wouldn't look good on the Banlist. It's super good when compared with all the other Modern cantrips and it would totally make sense in the banlist.
I might agree that the Blue control decks would not require Preordain if they were all actively running 4x Serum Visions, thereby showing they would clearly jump straight into 4x Preordain. But they're not all running 4x Serum Visions; some aren't running a single copy! In the four UWx Control decks that made it to the Top 8 of the last Grand Prix, there were a grand total of 7 copies of Serum Visions (only one ran the full set; one didn't run any at all, and the other two ran 2 and 1 copies respectively). And in the UW Control deck that made it into Top 16 of this Grand Prix, zero copies of Serum Visions were played. Actually, zero copies of Serum Visions were played in any of the Top 16 decks.
Granted, Opt saw play, but Opt is also Instant speed. I'm skeptical that Preordain would be that much of a boost to UWx Control, as it lacks the Instant-speed appeal of Opt, even if its effect is more powerful. That's not to say it wouldn't see play, but I don't see reason to believe it would be an automatic 4-of. It's the decks that are dependent on Serum Visions (or Sleight of Hand) which always run 4 copies that would get the real boost, and none of those decks seem good right now.
fair enough. i guess i should rephrase to say that i hypothesize that kci games have a higher average number of mistakes on both sides of the table that effect the outcome of the game.
its just a deck that promotes rules lawyering, which is one of the worst aspects of competitive paper magic.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)yeah i agree with most of that. what you are saying is technically correct, because at comp+ REL players should know whats going on. if the non-kci player gets blown out because they couldnt see an interaction that is already on-board that is on them. however im just talking about the general magic experience at all levels.
i bring it up because i recently saw a young kid playing some janky beatdown deck against kci (local casual event) and i just had to cringe and shake my head.
so yeah its not enough reason to ban the deck on its own, which is why i hope its too good.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I personally have a feeling that KCI is not busted. Players don't know how to play against it. Players don't know how to side against it. Even I personally don't know what's the best way to attack it, outside of a quick Slaughter Games, which is terrible vs. the rest of the diverse Modern meta. You would hate yourself if you put in 2-3 Slaughter Games and didn't use them the whole tournament. Likewise if you only had 1-2 Slaughter Games and never drew them when you needed them during sideboarded games. They have answers to any other type of hate. I feel like you hope to goldfish quicker in order to win, outside of getting a hate piece that survives along with a quick/medium clock.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)That's silly. Preordain finds any card. Ancient stirrings does not. Similar cards, sure, but very different in application.
I would personally enjoy Preordain and Ponder being unbanned, but to equate them to Stirrings is disingenuous and avoiding specifics. And I will remind all of you that Ban lists are meant to deal with specific things, not specific things and all things like them.
Broad generalizations are the foundation for the constant, petulant, and unrelenting ban talks. WOTC has said that the format is currently fine and therefore I see no reason at this time to throw rhetoric on the internet suggesting otherwise. It's just people (LOUDLY) expressing preferences at this point.
Why not use a "State of Modern" thread to, you know, actually discuss or dissect meta decks and ways to combat them instead of incessantly speculating about bans? This thread continues, for years now, to actually produce anything productive. Like, no one here is like "I think Bontu's Reckoning is better/worse against Humans compared to Verdict/Anger/Pulse because reasons" or "While that might be good against Humans, what about Hollow One? Which card is good and reasonable against both decks and how many to run given an expected set of decks at my Local/PPTQ?"
This thread is useless.
There are a lot of super busted cards in Modern and I didn't say it should be banned here. I'm on record numerous times in this thread stating that one should be banned OR the other unbanned, not that Stitrings should just be banned. I dont care how Wizards resolves this. As most of you probably know, I vastly prefer unbans to bans. But it should just be resolved one way or the other.
Agreed, well said. It's quite noticeable as well when people are lumping decks like Amulet Titan and Lantern in with Tron and KCI as a way to add weight to their claims of the power level of Stirrings. Lantern, for example, has disappeared off the face of the earth, and this will be only the second time Amulet Titan has ever made Top 8 at a GP.
Preordain was not banned for its performance in a single deck. It was banned for its appearance in multiple decks cited as an aggregate. We can definitely analyze Stirrings on the same axis.
I believe its a dog to Tron, so was pushed out.
Spirits
Amulet
KCI
RG Eldrazi
Mardu
G Tron
Abzan
Affinity
Mardu
3 Reactive Midrange decks.
1 Aggresive Midrange deck.
1 Aggro deck.
1 Ramp deck.
2 Combo decks.
Nice to see UW Miracles at 10th missing T8 by .01 on breakers. T8 also looks fine with Abzan and 2 Mardu. T8 Stirrings count is dumb; I'll check later how this affects the SV vs. Stirrings tally for the GP/PT.
It's poor analysis. Ancient Stirrings is not Preordain, and the constant false equivalency only works to cheapen the argument. Preordain is a card with a flat power level, and the consistency it provides is the same regardless of the blue deck it's put in. Ancient Stirrings level of power is entirely dependent on the colorless deck that is utilizing it, and this is entirely why the card should not be banned. Casting Stirrings to pull a Reality Smasher out of your deck is demonstrably less powerful than pulling a Scrap Trawler out of a KCI deck.
If Tron and KCI are oppressively running rampant over tournaments (this remains to be seen), then target the cards that actually make the deck work. Ban KCI itself if that's the case. Banning a consistency tool for a bunch of fringe decks isn't how your facilitate a healthy meta game.
For the record, I think Preordain should be unbanned. There's already a ton of variance in Magic that not allowing decks to utilize effective consistency tools is a piss poor way to manage power levels in your meta game.
Granted, Opt saw play, but Opt is also Instant speed. I'm skeptical that Preordain would be that much of a boost to UWx Control, as it lacks the Instant-speed appeal of Opt, even if its effect is more powerful. That's not to say it wouldn't see play, but I don't see reason to believe it would be an automatic 4-of. It's the decks that are dependent on Serum Visions (or Sleight of Hand) which always run 4 copies that would get the real boost, and none of those decks seem good right now.