I'm ok with that concept (ban and then reban if needed) but Pod was a huge offender, from the start of the format, right up till it had to die. Its just not the same as people crying into their pillow over jace 'winning' via fate seal, which I have done exactly ONCE, since his unban.
Its like...I dont know, just not the same. I agree there is more stuff out there now, but its a huge risk, and I dont think Wizards is in the business of 'surprise its free!' and then 6 months later 'sorry for all your decks...again!' and killing it.
I'm ok with that concept (ban and then reban if needed) but Pod was a huge offender, from the start of the format, right up till it had to die. Its just not the same as people crying into their pillow over jace 'winning' via fate seal, which I have done exactly ONCE, since his unban.
Its like...I dont know, just not the same. I agree there is more stuff out there now, but its a huge risk, and I dont think Wizards is in the business of 'surprise its free!' and then 6 months later 'sorry for all your decks...again!' and killing it.
It wasn't any more dominant in it's hay-day than Death's Shadow was back in 2017. Again, I think that it's worth the risk to try and unban something like it because at worse, they just ban it again and the possible impact on the meta would be far less than say, unbanning Eye of Ugin, which if they ever did unban I'm quitting Magic the Gathering.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Build pod with proxies and play it a few times with friends, see how it does. I Did, it's pretty good. I am not ready to unban it. Searching up the silver bullet you need consistently is really powerful, especial when it is backed up with life gain from kitchen finx and seige rhinos, resto angles, and mana ramp.
Build pod with proxies and play it a few times with friends, see how it does. I Did, it's pretty good. I am not ready to unban it. Searching up the silver bullet you need consistently is really powerful, especial when it is backed up with life gain from kitchen finx and seige rhinos, resto angles, and mana ramp.
I agree that the card is risky. My problem with wizards strategy of banning strong engines like it is that they bring strategic depth to a format that has increasingly turned into paper rock scissors.
I appreciate that wizards tries to print more strict versions of these cards with coco and the failed eldritch evolution, but how long will it be before coco and its 3 cmc restriction isn't good enough, or the card becomes too good and just gets banned too?
A variety of decks without strategic depth is no variety at all. That is the direction that I feel the game is being pushed towards with all the focus on powerful ETB creatures over better spells.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Pod existed at an interesting time in modern, and before it received a ban, pod decks were moving away from combo towards "value" decks.
It's very similar to the difference between devoted druid coco and GW coco value town.
What's interesting is that this move toward value shows a metagame which was warping to beat something else, specific (jund and twin). It also implies a metagame weak to Tron and other big mana decks.
Pod was great at grinding and beating certain midrange and combo decks, but was soft to control and big mana. There were predators and prey for pod and it wasn't unstoppable like eldrazi. It was just a "good deck"
I can see it coming back at some point. It's not as stupid as most other things on the list, it's just a value engine. With all the new printed answers like push et. al, I think we'd be in an OK spot to tentatively see how it plays.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
pod should stay ban, being combo or value the problem is the consistency that pod has for finding the specific sideboard option/hoser against your opponents deck. if your opponent has to work to find then you should too.
pod should stay ban, being combo or value the problem is the consistency that pod has for finding the specific sideboard option/hoser against your opponents deck. if your opponent has to work to find then you should too.
One, the card that is a silver bullet has to be a creature. Second, that creature has to cost more than the creature that was sacrificed, and third this operation can usually only be done once unless someone is using persist or undying, which can be countered with quite a few different cards.
Is it a risky unban? Yes. Is it as broken as skull clamp. Jitte, or eye? Definitely no.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Depending on your build you can actually pod multiple times a turn by finding creatures that will untap the pod with ETB effects. Example: let's say you have 3 mana avalible with a pod, voice of resurgence and kitchin finx (already with -1/-1 counter on it) in play at the start of your turn. Now, untap, pod away the voice to get deceiver exarch that will untap the pod. Now pod away the finx to get resto Angel, blink the deciever exarch to untap pod. Now pod away the resto to get kiki-jiki for combo kill or pod away the deceiver to get a seige rhino for the value build and next turn sac the finx to get resto and blink the seige rhino after combat. You have only spent 3 mana and have done alot. Or that same pattern could find a 1, 3, 4, or 5 cmc bullet if you needed that instead.(That is possible depending on which creature you sac to search for your bullet, and remember you can sac the voice token to search for a 1 cmc creature) That is a lot of versatility.
The "stifle future development" is a thin argument on some fronts (cantrips, equipment, etc), but it's absolutely true on creatures. Like clockwork, a new creature comes out at least every 1 or 2 sets that breaks a deck or pushes a mediocre deck to the forefront. Of all the things that are a risk of breaking decks, a repeatable creature tutor is probably near or at the top.
Pod stifles future card development. Let's keep that in mind.
I don't really buy this argument. It is possible for the power level of modern to be so high that there is no reasonable creature or chain of creatures that WotC could print that would be broken with pod. That is how legacy is now, which is why nobody plays pod there. I think modern could be at that point.
This argument also annoys me because it is basically saying "pod could be broken in the future, so we should ban it now". You could make that argument about a lot of stuff. Tron limits the power of large colorless spells. Humans limits the power of humans they can print, etc. Don't ban something on a hypothetical, they should just print whatever they want and ban when it becomes a problem.
Pod stifles future card development. Let's keep that in mind.
I don't really buy this argument. It is possible for the power level of modern to be so high that there is no reasonable creature or chain of creatures that WotC could print that would be broken with pod. That is how legacy is now, which is why nobody plays pod there. I think modern could be at that point.
This argument also annoys me because it is basically saying "pod could be broken in the future, so we should ban it now". You could make that argument about a lot of stuff. Tron limits the power of large colorless spells. Humans limits the power of humans they can print, etc. Don't ban something on a hypothetical, they should just print whatever they want and ban when it becomes a problem.
They banned it because it was broken then. They keep it banned because it could break in the future if it were unbanned. Legacy has several decades of broken cards and archetypes that pod cannot compete with. That's the reason it is not played there, not a ceiling of creature efficacy that you claim they have hit.
You just described my point. The reason they are not worried about future creatures breaking pod in legacy is because of the decades of broken cards and archetypes. The power level of those broken things is so high that any creature that made pod playable would probably be banworthy on its own. There are now about the same number of cards in modern as there were in legacy when pod was printed. Pod was unplayable in legacy then. I know modern is lower power level than legacy was then, but I think modern has enough busted stuff going on that pod would not stand out as overly broken.
I dont believe at all that Modern has become so much more powerful that Pod would not instantly consume 15% of the meta.
Ya this is my feeling too. I mean modern would survive with pod, and I would play it, but the format is healthier without it. It was banned for winning to much already and it will get better and better with more creatures getting printed. It's just to high risk. I expect it will never be unbanned unless WOTC dramaticly changes it's outlook for the format. WOTC could change that outlook at anytime, but I don't think we are there.
I don't see how POD is going to restrict future creature cards, if any creature gets too broken they can just ban it or reban POD.
I was still fairly new to Modern at the time, but if I remember correctly, it was already a really good deck, then a new card (Siege Rhino) helped push it over the edge to absurdly good. And the printing of Rhino sparked the conversation that even if you ban Rhino, any new creature would just bust the deck open anyway. The problem was Pod itself, and its repeatable tutor ability to find any busted creature for both value and combos.
I don't see how POD is going to restrict future creature cards, if any creature gets too broken they can just ban it or reban POD.
I was still fairly new to Modern at the time, but if I remember correctly, it was already a really good deck, then a new card (Siege Rhino) helped push it over the edge to absurdly good. And the printing of Rhino sparked the conversation that even if you ban Rhino, any new creature would just bust the deck open anyway. The problem was Pod itself, and its repeatable tutor ability to find any busted creature for both value and combos.
Rhino didn't really affect the deck all that much. It gave the deck another potential four drop slot, but it was pretty comparable in power level to Restoration Angel for value and Redcap for Value/Combo. Pod didn't have anything printed that really made the deck suddenly broken, but what it did have was steady results that made it too good with small improvements continuously adding up. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it had reached a 20% meta share and was consistently winning GP's and pro tours.
I don't see how POD is going to restrict future creature cards, if any creature gets too broken they can just ban it or reban POD.
I was still fairly new to Modern at the time, but if I remember correctly, it was already a really good deck, then a new card (Siege Rhino) helped push it over the edge to absurdly good. And the printing of Rhino sparked the conversation that even if you ban Rhino, any new creature would just bust the deck open anyway. The problem was Pod itself, and its repeatable tutor ability to find any busted creature for both value and combos.
This is it in a nutshell. The deck, Abzan Pod, was played for quite a while in Modern. In fact, RUG Pod or Kiki Pod was also played quite often and even WON a GP. But eventually people realized that Abzan Pod was the way to go and all of the best Pro Players in Modern flocked to it. They had really good results with it.
But flash forward to the printing of Siege Rhino. Like cfusionpm said, this is the straw that broke the camel's back. I, for one, actually wanted Siege Rhino banned, not Pod, because Pod was such an elegant deck. But getting consistent turn 3 Siege Rhino was too good in a format of Treasure Delver, Treasure Burn, Bloom Titan, and Affinity. It also pushed so many other decks out, that those were really the only ones that could consistently thrive. Imagine a Humans deck right now that did what it did, but also drained you for 3 life every turn while gaining 3 every turn. That's what Rhino Pod did. But Wizards DID do the CORRECT ban in Pod because they were devoted to consistently printing stronger and stronger creatures. It sucked to me at the time and I in fact lashed out here on mtgs because I hated to see Birthing Pod go, but in the end it was the correct decision. I personally have forgiven them because I love playing Collected Company even more, lol.
@genini - I will try to find some tournament reports that show the dominance of Rhino Pod. Previously, Pod decks lost to Control, Combo, and Big Mana, but with Rhino, they could usually outrace those decks, outside of a nut draw by them.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Pod stifles future card development. Let's keep that in mind.
Future set development stifles modern and tends to make it more degenerate anyway. Old cards that were too powerful at one point are often supplanted by the power of newer era cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
You know for every creature card they print that can make pod better there's another card they can print that makes pod worse.
One of the things about pod was how there were few to no maindeckable answers since it dodged abrupt decay. We now have abrade and kolaghans command, and I feel like there are more decks that just don't care about a tutor that much. Anger of the gods was a beating for pod already, maybe kalitas would matter or wizards gives us some more playable Leonin arbiter or pithing needle type effects.
Anyways the idea they might print a new card that breaks it is goofy. They could just as easily print a card that makes it awful or create a meta hostile to it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
the power of the format is going to grow as more cards are added. however this power isnt uniformly distributed across all decks and archetypes, because some decks improve at a faster rate.
pod is assumed to be one such deck. one because creatures have been at the forefront of design, and two because tutors (a repeatable one no less) remove some of the deck restrictions associated with playing them. for instance you can play 1 or 2 copies to get the full effect where other decks would need to play 4 as a redundancy measure.
multiple decks fall into this category of scaling particularly well, but pod also happened to be the best deck in the format by no small margin.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Turn three siege rhino really is a joke of a problem nowadays. Pod decks wouldn't touch a rhino with a ten foot pole nowadays. It'd be Kiki pod 100% and the deck would be superb.
Without twin keeping it down I don't know what stops it. Tron couldn't deal with the speed of the combo nowadays I don't think, probably be close to even. I had a winning match against non red Tron with devoted druid as is.
Zenith is a much more fair card that'd be mutually exclusive with pod which is the biggest issue for me. I'd much rather see zenith.
Sure but given WOTC current design parameters I find it more probable WOTC prints Creatures that break POD then they print good unconditional, nonspecific answers. KCommand is about as good I expect to get for the foreseeable future.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Its like...I dont know, just not the same. I agree there is more stuff out there now, but its a huge risk, and I dont think Wizards is in the business of 'surprise its free!' and then 6 months later 'sorry for all your decks...again!' and killing it.
Spirits
It wasn't any more dominant in it's hay-day than Death's Shadow was back in 2017. Again, I think that it's worth the risk to try and unban something like it because at worse, they just ban it again and the possible impact on the meta would be far less than say, unbanning Eye of Ugin, which if they ever did unban I'm quitting Magic the Gathering.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Spirits
I agree that the card is risky. My problem with wizards strategy of banning strong engines like it is that they bring strategic depth to a format that has increasingly turned into paper rock scissors.
I appreciate that wizards tries to print more strict versions of these cards with coco and the failed eldritch evolution, but how long will it be before coco and its 3 cmc restriction isn't good enough, or the card becomes too good and just gets banned too?
A variety of decks without strategic depth is no variety at all. That is the direction that I feel the game is being pushed towards with all the focus on powerful ETB creatures over better spells.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's very similar to the difference between devoted druid coco and GW coco value town.
What's interesting is that this move toward value shows a metagame which was warping to beat something else, specific (jund and twin). It also implies a metagame weak to Tron and other big mana decks.
Pod was great at grinding and beating certain midrange and combo decks, but was soft to control and big mana. There were predators and prey for pod and it wasn't unstoppable like eldrazi. It was just a "good deck"
I can see it coming back at some point. It's not as stupid as most other things on the list, it's just a value engine. With all the new printed answers like push et. al, I think we'd be in an OK spot to tentatively see how it plays.
One, the card that is a silver bullet has to be a creature. Second, that creature has to cost more than the creature that was sacrificed, and third this operation can usually only be done once unless someone is using persist or undying, which can be countered with quite a few different cards.
Is it a risky unban? Yes. Is it as broken as skull clamp. Jitte, or eye? Definitely no.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I don't really buy this argument. It is possible for the power level of modern to be so high that there is no reasonable creature or chain of creatures that WotC could print that would be broken with pod. That is how legacy is now, which is why nobody plays pod there. I think modern could be at that point.
This argument also annoys me because it is basically saying "pod could be broken in the future, so we should ban it now". You could make that argument about a lot of stuff. Tron limits the power of large colorless spells. Humans limits the power of humans they can print, etc. Don't ban something on a hypothetical, they should just print whatever they want and ban when it becomes a problem.
They banned it because it was broken then. They keep it banned because it could break in the future if it were unbanned. Legacy has several decades of broken cards and archetypes that pod cannot compete with. That's the reason it is not played there, not a ceiling of creature efficacy that you claim they have hit.
Spirits
Ya this is my feeling too. I mean modern would survive with pod, and I would play it, but the format is healthier without it. It was banned for winning to much already and it will get better and better with more creatures getting printed. It's just to high risk. I expect it will never be unbanned unless WOTC dramaticly changes it's outlook for the format. WOTC could change that outlook at anytime, but I don't think we are there.
I was still fairly new to Modern at the time, but if I remember correctly, it was already a really good deck, then a new card (Siege Rhino) helped push it over the edge to absurdly good. And the printing of Rhino sparked the conversation that even if you ban Rhino, any new creature would just bust the deck open anyway. The problem was Pod itself, and its repeatable tutor ability to find any busted creature for both value and combos.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Rhino didn't really affect the deck all that much. It gave the deck another potential four drop slot, but it was pretty comparable in power level to Restoration Angel for value and Redcap for Value/Combo. Pod didn't have anything printed that really made the deck suddenly broken, but what it did have was steady results that made it too good with small improvements continuously adding up. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it had reached a 20% meta share and was consistently winning GP's and pro tours.
This is it in a nutshell. The deck, Abzan Pod, was played for quite a while in Modern. In fact, RUG Pod or Kiki Pod was also played quite often and even WON a GP. But eventually people realized that Abzan Pod was the way to go and all of the best Pro Players in Modern flocked to it. They had really good results with it.
But flash forward to the printing of Siege Rhino. Like cfusionpm said, this is the straw that broke the camel's back. I, for one, actually wanted Siege Rhino banned, not Pod, because Pod was such an elegant deck. But getting consistent turn 3 Siege Rhino was too good in a format of Treasure Delver, Treasure Burn, Bloom Titan, and Affinity. It also pushed so many other decks out, that those were really the only ones that could consistently thrive. Imagine a Humans deck right now that did what it did, but also drained you for 3 life every turn while gaining 3 every turn. That's what Rhino Pod did. But Wizards DID do the CORRECT ban in Pod because they were devoted to consistently printing stronger and stronger creatures. It sucked to me at the time and I in fact lashed out here on mtgs because I hated to see Birthing Pod go, but in the end it was the correct decision. I personally have forgiven them because I love playing Collected Company even more, lol.
@genini - I will try to find some tournament reports that show the dominance of Rhino Pod. Previously, Pod decks lost to Control, Combo, and Big Mana, but with Rhino, they could usually outrace those decks, outside of a nut draw by them.
Couldn't find it, but here's a good article. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/top-decks/formats-under-siege-siege-rhinos-modern-and-standard-2014-11-21
Here's a winner. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/daily-deck/grand-prix-omaha-winning-decklist-2015-01-12
He even beat the guy famous for palming his 7 card of choice hand in his hand on Bloom Titan.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8894&d=250740&f=MO
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Future set development stifles modern and tends to make it more degenerate anyway. Old cards that were too powerful at one point are often supplanted by the power of newer era cards.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
One of the things about pod was how there were few to no maindeckable answers since it dodged abrupt decay. We now have abrade and kolaghans command, and I feel like there are more decks that just don't care about a tutor that much. Anger of the gods was a beating for pod already, maybe kalitas would matter or wizards gives us some more playable Leonin arbiter or pithing needle type effects.
Anyways the idea they might print a new card that breaks it is goofy. They could just as easily print a card that makes it awful or create a meta hostile to it.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
pod is assumed to be one such deck. one because creatures have been at the forefront of design, and two because tutors (a repeatable one no less) remove some of the deck restrictions associated with playing them. for instance you can play 1 or 2 copies to get the full effect where other decks would need to play 4 as a redundancy measure.
multiple decks fall into this category of scaling particularly well, but pod also happened to be the best deck in the format by no small margin.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Without twin keeping it down I don't know what stops it. Tron couldn't deal with the speed of the combo nowadays I don't think, probably be close to even. I had a winning match against non red Tron with devoted druid as is.
Zenith is a much more fair card that'd be mutually exclusive with pod which is the biggest issue for me. I'd much rather see zenith.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall