We need to remember that the best players typically average a 65% MWP in major events, and that they rarely have higher than a 70% MWP in their best format. This is true for both SCG circuit players and GP/PT players. It's probably reasonable to expect a better MWP at FNM level events and smaller, but there's likely a limit on how much one's MWP can improve against worse players. I don't know what that ceiling is but I doubt it's higher than 80%. This should be where players set their expectations. People who set it higher often have an unreasonable sense of their own skills or are underestimating the game's (NOT the format's) overall variance.
P.S. - Caleb Sherer on Storm (nicest guy BTW) and Pieter Tubergen on Affinity are proof that better pilots do better quite often. Caleb is slowly becoming my hero in Modern because he and Paul Muller are literally nearly the only ones that place with Storm and have the guts to keep going at it.
i give props to todd stevens for playing GW valuetown. the deck rarely shows up anywhere but he consistently does well with it. i dont care how soft people consider SCG fields to be; back to back top 16 finishes with a deck hardly anyone plays is impressive.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
On the topic of variance all people need to look at are the UWR VS Jund game 2 where UWR ran hot and dunked on Jund, vs his Game 2 in the final where he lost to his deck, not the opponent.
true, but lets also not pretend that lantern players are better at the game.
Playing Lantern actually improved my skill at playing Magic as a whole.
Just throwing out my (completely biased) opinion that Lantern is the best deck in Modern that no one is playing, because no one is properly skilled enough to play it.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
true, but lets also not pretend that lantern players are better at the game.
Playing Lantern actually improved my skill at playing Magic as a whole.
Just throwing out my (completely biased) opinion that Lantern is the best deck in Modern that no one is playing, because no one is properly skilled enough to play it.
Its a bit early for me in the day and week to want to kick of a war over text on a forum...but that bold part is a hilariously biased take.
I dont touch Lantern because its the opposite of fun for not only me, but most opponents. Same reason I put down Turns. I dont like salting the earth.
Just throwing out my (completely biased) opinion that Lantern is the best deck in Modern that no one is playing, because no one is properly skilled enough to play it.
Its a bit early for me in the day and week to want to kick of a war over text on a forum...but that bold part is a hilariously biased take.
I dont touch Lantern because its the opposite of fun for not only me, but most opponents. Same reason I put down Turns. I dont like salting the earth.
I did mention that my opinion was biased (notice my emphasis lol).
And honestly, to go into it a bit more, while I will again admit that my opinion is extremely biased, I have it for a reason.
For your average Modern deck, you can pick it up and with 0-5 hours of preparation you can do average, or good at a high level tournament completely off the back of your previous play ability. Obviously the more experience you have with a deck, the more you can also influence these results.
However this is not true of Lantern. Lantern Control requires you to have different skills than you require for your average Modern deck. You need to not only have your 75 memorized, but the 75 of potentially 100 other decks you could play in the format. At every step in the game you need to determine:
What is the worst possible card for your opponent to have right now?
If you don't have knowledge of their hand, what are the odds of them having the card at this moment
If you do have knowledge of their hand, what steps can you take to prevent them from getting it?
If either of the above two cases, what are the costs of you not playing around them having the card?
The inverse of the above, what are the costs of you playing around them having the card?
Repeat all of the above mental processes for the second, and then third worse card for them to have in their deck.
While these sound like things you would do with a normal deck in Magic, the sheer amount of information you get access to in a game with Lantern makes it overwhelming to new players of the deck. Hell sometimes it can get overwhelming for me and I've been playing the deck competitively for 2 years.
At present I'd say BBD, Zac Elsik, and Sam Black are the best Lantern Control players in the game. And even then, I still feel all of them have a bit further they could go with the deck. And I know that I myself am leagues behind them in skill.
Lantern is the best deck in Modern because it is equipped in such a way that it can deal with any, and every deck. However, it takes a ridiculous amount of practice and preparation in order for it to be piloted well. Add that to the fact that the playstyle is extremely unappealing to a large amount of people...and well...
Lantern is the best deck in Modern, that no one is playing right now, because no one is properly skilled enough to play it.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Lantern is the best deck in Modern, that no one is playing right now, because no one is properly skilled enough to play it.
That's not entirely true though. Many people, like idSurge and I, are not playing it because it is both miserable and awful to play with and play against. It promotes the absolute worst kind of gameplay and often tilts opponents into salty rages. If that's what you want out of a deck, it's the cat's meow. I get enough grief as is playing Blood Moon. But I'm also trying to win the game quickly with Emrakul.
I'm not going to say I'm an expert at playing Lantern, but having played control and reactive strategies exclusively in Modern, it's not difficult for me to identify what key cards are important in any given opponent's deck. With the level of dig and tutor Lantern has, I'm sure I'd be fairly successful with it. But my soul couldn't take playing such a miserable deck.
Even with a declaration of bias (that I attributed to it being the 'best deck in Modern'), saying people are not skilled enough is like...next level bias!
I fully admit its likely the most skill testing deck in the format, would be the hardest to play, and the hardest to pick up as its skills are less transferable, but I still think its a reach to say its not played because nobody has the skills to do so.
Most people are not even going to bother to learn it because like Tron, its simply impossible to stomach sitting down and playing, for many.
Either way, I think we agree that its the formats 'hard mode' I think we just put different emphasis on why it see's less play.
I doubt top players care too much about "miserable play patterns" or angering opponents. They just want to win events. Some will avoid it for aesthetic reasons, but most are just spikes trying to win. It's much more likely they avoid the deck because of a perception and/or reality that it takes considerable time to play well. This makes it a bad time investment for players that need to rep multiple formats and decks, many with more money/point benefits than Modern.
I doubt top players care too much about "miserable play patterns" or angering opponents. They just want to win events. Some will avoid it for aesthetic reasons, but most are just spikes trying to win. It's much more likely they avoid the deck because of a perception and/or reality that it takes considerable time to play well. This makes it a bad time investment for players that need to rep multiple formats and decks, many with more money/point benefits than Modern.
They probably care about their opponents refusing to scoop for whatever reason (spite, lack of knowledge, playing to outs, wants a draw, etc). Wasn't Sam Black playing Lantern at a recent GP and had 3 draws, knocking him out of contention? It's a real concern for a deck who's primary win condition is opponents conceding.
I doubt top players care too much about "miserable play patterns" or angering opponents. They just want to win events. Some will avoid it for aesthetic reasons, but most are just spikes trying to win. It's much more likely they avoid the deck because of a perception and/or reality that it takes considerable time to play well. This makes it a bad time investment for players that need to rep multiple formats and decks, many with more money/point benefits than Modern.
They probably care about their opponents refusing to scoop for whatever reason (spite, lack of knowledge, playing to outs, wants a draw, etc). Wasn't Sam Black playing Lantern at a recent GP and had 3 draws, knocking him out of contention? It's a real concern for a deck who's primary win condition is opponents conceding.
This. So much this. Sure, there are matches that you win 1-0, but there are also matches that are Ties because guess what, your opponent is dead on board and won't scoop. And guess what else? They don't have to. I would probably mostly make my Lantern opponent kill me if it was game 3. During game 1, I often scoop when things look super dismal, so that I can win games 2 and 3. But just like any other deck, you have to "earn" your victory and not expect your opponent to scoop just because THEY can't win.
Also, I believe that Piotr Glogowski (handle Kanister) is still one of the best Lantern players in the world. He's 1 of 2 guys that I always looked up to playing Bloom Titan and he's since moved on years ago to Lantern. I'm not sure if he plays it now, but he is really good at that deck!
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I doubt top players care too much about "miserable play patterns" or angering opponents. They just want to win events. Some will avoid it for aesthetic reasons, but most are just spikes trying to win. It's much more likely they avoid the deck because of a perception and/or reality that it takes considerable time to play well. This makes it a bad time investment for players that need to rep multiple formats and decks, many with more money/point benefits than Modern.
Well sure but I think such a deck would have to be noticeably better then the Field. Is Lantern that deck?
I doubt top players care too much about "miserable play patterns" or angering opponents. They just want to win events. Some will avoid it for aesthetic reasons, but most are just spikes trying to win. It's much more likely they avoid the deck because of a perception and/or reality that it takes considerable time to play well. This makes it a bad time investment for players that need to rep multiple formats and decks, many with more money/point benefits than Modern.
Well sure but I think such a deck would have to be noticeably better then the Field. Is Lantern that deck?
It's probably not better by enough of a margin to justify the investment if you also have to play primarily Standard and Limited. I also think CFP's issue is a legitimate one; opponents may not concede to this deck and you will accrue too many draws. Those would be big strikes against the deck from a pro perspective.
If you were an opponent at a GP playing against Lantern and you were probably not winning Game 3, would YOU scoop? Because if I still have a chance to go 12-2-1 or even 11-3-1 and get money, I most likely would not scoop. If it was a friend, I would probably do so, but for someone I don't know, there's very little reason for me to scoop. I didn't lose. I just couldn't win, which are 2 very different things.
Also, people's perception of the deck and the players being a "dick" also probably lead to many non concessions as well. If your opponent played what Gkourou said very well, a 3 mana sorcery that said, "you can't win the game," you probably are pretty pissed about it. I was pissed when my opponent on Casual Monday Night Magic drew Ensnaring Bridge with his last draw when I had lethal on board. I had no main deck way to win, but I played on, begrudgingly. I also happened to win the next 2 games, but you best believe that I was salty about that happening. Who wouldn't be? (unless you are one of those guys that always prays that your opponent draws there 4 of only out when dead on board; I don't know those people personally, but it would be interesting to know one here)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
If you were an opponent at a GP playing against Lantern and you were probably not winning Game 3, would YOU scoop? Because if I still have a chance to go 12-2-1 or even 11-3-1 and get money, I most likely would not scoop. If it was a friend, I would probably do so, but for someone I don't know, there's very little reason for me to scoop. I didn't lose. I just couldn't win, which are 2 very different things.
I never suggested the opponent "should" or "should not" scoop when under a lock. That was outside the scope of my post. I was just observing they probably aren't scooping, factually speaking, which makes Lantern a riskier choice for large events where multiple draws are bad for the pilot. On the topic of whether people should/should not scoop, I see no problem with a player not scooping to unwinnable board states, especially if there are improbable outs (e.g. to destroy Bridge, you must have 4 removal spells in a row) or outs due to human error (e.g. the Lantern pilot gets tired and activates Bell to bin a topdecked Grudge rather than activating Pyxis). That said, I do fault players who don't scoop games out of principle or pride, rather than those who do not scoop for strategic reasons. A great example is when it's Round 4 of an event and you're playing a slow deck like UW Control and the Lantern player has you locked. You could play this out for 25 minutes, but then you virtually guarantee a draw due to having a mere 25 minutes to resolve G2/G3. This will hurt you if you are ultimately ahead enough in G3 to win but can't because you wasted 15 minutes in G1. We see this when a G3 goes to turns and one pilot is absolutely capable of winning in 4-5 turns but can't do it in 2-3. If a prideful failure to concede resulted in that bad time management, that was a time the locked player absolutely should have scooped the moment the lock got established. Waiting for the improbable/error-based outs was not worth the eventual G3 loss.
Running into idiotic jank is exactly why I cannot play anything but Blue decks for any extended period of time. There is no other colour that can answer literally everything with either a counter, or a bounce.
I dont get upset about things like Bridge, even when people lucksack top deck it for the win, because the number of games I've lucked into a Bolt/Helix for the win are FAR from zero.
That is what Magic is about.
That said, controlling variance is important for a lot of people, and if you are one of those people, and you are not playing Uxx, then I have no clue how you get through the day. Without extra draw, without filtering, without selection. I dont think I could be playing Modern, in fact I know I couldnt, I had given up on the game until Search came out and rescued the archetype.
First off, I feel stupid for not mentioning Kanister when I was talking about amazing Lantern players. Shame on me
As for draws with Lantern Control, that isn't really a thing at the Professional Level. If we look at the last Modern Pro Tour, there were I believe 3 people playing Lantern Control. Between both Days 1 & 2, the decks (if I remember correctly) together had 1 match end in a draw. And said draw was against a wonderfully slow UW Control Player who ended the PT with 3 Draws.
So yeah, the main thing keeping pros away from Lantern is the sheer amount of time they need to dump into it. Though I wouldn't discount how the entire playstyle of the deck keeps some players away. I have seen more than one Tweet by PVDDR where he has essentially said he'd rather quit Magic than play Lantern Control, even if it was hands down the best deck in Modern.
Now as for your opponents conceding, as a Lantern Player you just need to leverage the Judge Call. And I'm not being petty here. When I played Lantern Control at GP Toronto this year, I called the Judge on my opponent for slow play one round because he was intentionally stalling. He would draw his card, humm and haw for close to a minute, and then pass the turn. The judge gave him a warning because I was able to show through my bookeeping that the only cards he had in hand were lands, he had nothing in his graveyard he could cast because of Grafdigger's Cage, and he couldn't attack with any creatures because of Ensnaring Bridge. I'm sorry, but if you are going to be a salty jerk, then I will get you punished for it.
That being said, I only had to do that one round. In every other game I played, if I had my opponent in a lock, I just explained to them how the lock worked, and the situation they were in. Even in matches where we were on Game 3 and the loser would not make Day 2, I had my opponent concede. Because reasonable people will understand that you have demonstrated a loop that makes it so that they cannot win the game, and I will win the game. It is no different than conceding when someone starts storming off. Some people just have a juvenile and spiteful hatred for Lantern. For those people you just need to put in even practice with the deck where you can play swiftly and end games fast. That's all there is to it.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Sure but I think the point is if your pissed that your opponent got a lucky top deck then you are less likely to say GG and go to the next match and far more likely to grind it out and go full trench warfare and let them win slowly. You are not likely to lose gracefully, this tactic is even more viable in a situation where there is a clock and you can slow play it out.
Sure but I think the point is if your pissed that your opponent got a lucky top deck then you are less likely to say GG and go to the next match and far more likely to grind it out and go full trench warfare and let them win slowly. You are not likely to lose gracefully, this tactic is even more viable in a situation where there is a clock and you can slow play it out.
And yet people GG and scoop all the time when a Tron opponent top decks their third Tron piece, or their Karn, etc.
The type of hatred people have for Lantern is just for Lantern. And don't get me wrong, I can understand why the deck can be annoying to play against. I am not holding a hatred of that against anyone. What I don't understand is the sentiment of pride people get from, "Well I am going to waste their time and ruin their tournament." Congratulations, you're a scumbag. Want a trophy?
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I think some of you are missing the point. Everything done at a tournament is done strategically, unless you are simply playing for fun. I have to think, "is it better for me to be in the DRAW BRACKET?" If it is because my deck naturally beats decks that are in the draw bracket, then I will not give a win to somebody, even a friend, because it is more helpful to me to play against decks and opponents that I should be able to beat. If being in the draw bracket essentially puts me out of having a chance to win, then I will certainly scoop and avoid it. Everything has to be weighed at the GP level.
Would you be happy that you scooped early in a GP to Lantern to finish 13-2 to get 9th place when you could have done 13-1-1 and gotten 2nd on breakers? I literally don't care if I couldn't win or not. Being able to play AFTER the Swiss rounds are done is something that I enjoy doing. I hate not playing after the Swiss rounds. There was literally one time when I was happy to get 9th place - at a PTQ in Los Angeles where they awarded me a box - the same as the top 8 and I didn't want to play anymore because of perceived variance that I saw that day. That was a one time occurrence and I don't remember ever feeling like I was happy to not play the top 8 ever again.
@ktkenshinx - I wasn't saying anything about your post. I was genuinely asking you, would you scoop in that situation?
*You guys do understand that Legacy Cloudpost players would ask their opponents in round 1 if they wanted to have a TIE after beating them (2-0 or 2-1) so that they could be in the DRAW BRACKET, facing tons of Miracles all day (a matchup that literally is as close to 90/10 as you can get in MAgic.)?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The type of hatred people have for Lantern is just for Lantern. And don't get me wrong, I can understand why the deck can be annoying to play against. I am not holding a hatred of that against anyone. What I don't understand is the sentiment of pride people get from, "Well I am going to waste their time and ruin their tournament." Congratulations, you're a scumbag. Want a trophy?
The fact you don't (or pretend not to) understand politics doesn't change the facts. You admit you understand why people don't like the deck. The extremely simple next step is to understand the consequences. People won't make it easy for the lantern players for precisely the reason that they don't want their rank to grow. Feel free to tweak your deck to have a faster win-con. You are the one who chose to play a deck with a slow win-con, not your opponent.
PS: and on top of that, people regularly don't scoop to other decks. It's just those other decks, when they have the obvious win on the table, win in short order. Not scooping to Emrakul or Ulamog in Tron happens. The tron player justs win over the next turn or two.
as for my earlier comment on lantern. i consider it one of the hardest decks to pick up initially (ie steep learning curve) and master (ie play near optimally). however that is different from a causal relationship between being able to play the deck well and how good at magic you are. you can be a poor player in most other facets of gameplay, but do well with lantern; similarly you can be a great player but suck with lantern. lets not overlook the fact that the deck exists on the back of one of the most powerful creature (combat) hate cards ever printed, of which many decks cant even function against, and plays the best cantrip in the format AND an instant speed tutor to find it.
as for conceding early, specifically against lantern...well i dunno. concessions are a controversial topic especially for MTGO where certain combos and interactions cant be done in a timely fashion and each player has their own clock. when i play paper magic it will depend on factors like the seriousness of the event, what game we are on, and my placement in the standings. im not just gonna hand lantern players the win without extensively gauging my ability to crawl back into the game nor am i going to waste the opponents time out of spite.
sportsmanship is nice and all, but the only things that matter are the rules of the game. outside of that expecting others to adhere to whatever personal codes of conduct you might have is a fools errand. the lantern lock isnt a deterministic loop, and if you cant win on time that is on you.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Lantern most skill-intensive deck in Modern ? I could agree with that no problem before Whir of Invention got printed.
Claiming that Lantern is super skill-intensive now with an instant speed tutor for any lock piece now is just ego talking. This card made Lantern much much more forgiving to play while lowering the degree of difficulty in piloting.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
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i give props to todd stevens for playing GW valuetown. the deck rarely shows up anywhere but he consistently does well with it. i dont care how soft people consider SCG fields to be; back to back top 16 finishes with a deck hardly anyone plays is impressive.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)These things are part of magic.
Spirits
Playing Lantern actually improved my skill at playing Magic as a whole.
Just throwing out my (completely biased) opinion that Lantern is the best deck in Modern that no one is playing, because no one is properly skilled enough to play it.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Its a bit early for me in the day and week to want to kick of a war over text on a forum...but that bold part is a hilariously biased take.
I dont touch Lantern because its the opposite of fun for not only me, but most opponents. Same reason I put down Turns. I dont like salting the earth.
Spirits
I did mention that my opinion was biased (notice my emphasis lol).
And honestly, to go into it a bit more, while I will again admit that my opinion is extremely biased, I have it for a reason.
For your average Modern deck, you can pick it up and with 0-5 hours of preparation you can do average, or good at a high level tournament completely off the back of your previous play ability. Obviously the more experience you have with a deck, the more you can also influence these results.
However this is not true of Lantern. Lantern Control requires you to have different skills than you require for your average Modern deck. You need to not only have your 75 memorized, but the 75 of potentially 100 other decks you could play in the format. At every step in the game you need to determine:
At present I'd say BBD, Zac Elsik, and Sam Black are the best Lantern Control players in the game. And even then, I still feel all of them have a bit further they could go with the deck. And I know that I myself am leagues behind them in skill.
Lantern is the best deck in Modern because it is equipped in such a way that it can deal with any, and every deck. However, it takes a ridiculous amount of practice and preparation in order for it to be piloted well. Add that to the fact that the playstyle is extremely unappealing to a large amount of people...and well...
Lantern is the best deck in Modern, that no one is playing right now, because no one is properly skilled enough to play it.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
That's not entirely true though. Many people, like idSurge and I, are not playing it because it is both miserable and awful to play with and play against. It promotes the absolute worst kind of gameplay and often tilts opponents into salty rages. If that's what you want out of a deck, it's the cat's meow. I get enough grief as is playing Blood Moon. But I'm also trying to win the game quickly with Emrakul.
I'm not going to say I'm an expert at playing Lantern, but having played control and reactive strategies exclusively in Modern, it's not difficult for me to identify what key cards are important in any given opponent's deck. With the level of dig and tutor Lantern has, I'm sure I'd be fairly successful with it. But my soul couldn't take playing such a miserable deck.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I fully admit its likely the most skill testing deck in the format, would be the hardest to play, and the hardest to pick up as its skills are less transferable, but I still think its a reach to say its not played because nobody has the skills to do so.
Most people are not even going to bother to learn it because like Tron, its simply impossible to stomach sitting down and playing, for many.
Either way, I think we agree that its the formats 'hard mode' I think we just put different emphasis on why it see's less play.
Spirits
They probably care about their opponents refusing to scoop for whatever reason (spite, lack of knowledge, playing to outs, wants a draw, etc). Wasn't Sam Black playing Lantern at a recent GP and had 3 draws, knocking him out of contention? It's a real concern for a deck who's primary win condition is opponents conceding.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This. So much this. Sure, there are matches that you win 1-0, but there are also matches that are Ties because guess what, your opponent is dead on board and won't scoop. And guess what else? They don't have to. I would probably mostly make my Lantern opponent kill me if it was game 3. During game 1, I often scoop when things look super dismal, so that I can win games 2 and 3. But just like any other deck, you have to "earn" your victory and not expect your opponent to scoop just because THEY can't win.
Also, I believe that Piotr Glogowski (handle Kanister) is still one of the best Lantern players in the world. He's 1 of 2 guys that I always looked up to playing Bloom Titan and he's since moved on years ago to Lantern. I'm not sure if he plays it now, but he is really good at that deck!
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Well sure but I think such a deck would have to be noticeably better then the Field. Is Lantern that deck?
It's probably not better by enough of a margin to justify the investment if you also have to play primarily Standard and Limited. I also think CFP's issue is a legitimate one; opponents may not concede to this deck and you will accrue too many draws. Those would be big strikes against the deck from a pro perspective.
Also, people's perception of the deck and the players being a "dick" also probably lead to many non concessions as well. If your opponent played what Gkourou said very well, a 3 mana sorcery that said, "you can't win the game," you probably are pretty pissed about it. I was pissed when my opponent on Casual Monday Night Magic drew Ensnaring Bridge with his last draw when I had lethal on board. I had no main deck way to win, but I played on, begrudgingly. I also happened to win the next 2 games, but you best believe that I was salty about that happening. Who wouldn't be? (unless you are one of those guys that always prays that your opponent draws there 4 of only out when dead on board; I don't know those people personally, but it would be interesting to know one here)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I never suggested the opponent "should" or "should not" scoop when under a lock. That was outside the scope of my post. I was just observing they probably aren't scooping, factually speaking, which makes Lantern a riskier choice for large events where multiple draws are bad for the pilot. On the topic of whether people should/should not scoop, I see no problem with a player not scooping to unwinnable board states, especially if there are improbable outs (e.g. to destroy Bridge, you must have 4 removal spells in a row) or outs due to human error (e.g. the Lantern pilot gets tired and activates Bell to bin a topdecked Grudge rather than activating Pyxis). That said, I do fault players who don't scoop games out of principle or pride, rather than those who do not scoop for strategic reasons. A great example is when it's Round 4 of an event and you're playing a slow deck like UW Control and the Lantern player has you locked. You could play this out for 25 minutes, but then you virtually guarantee a draw due to having a mere 25 minutes to resolve G2/G3. This will hurt you if you are ultimately ahead enough in G3 to win but can't because you wasted 15 minutes in G1. We see this when a G3 goes to turns and one pilot is absolutely capable of winning in 4-5 turns but can't do it in 2-3. If a prideful failure to concede resulted in that bad time management, that was a time the locked player absolutely should have scooped the moment the lock got established. Waiting for the improbable/error-based outs was not worth the eventual G3 loss.
I dont get upset about things like Bridge, even when people lucksack top deck it for the win, because the number of games I've lucked into a Bolt/Helix for the win are FAR from zero.
That is what Magic is about.
That said, controlling variance is important for a lot of people, and if you are one of those people, and you are not playing Uxx, then I have no clue how you get through the day. Without extra draw, without filtering, without selection. I dont think I could be playing Modern, in fact I know I couldnt, I had given up on the game until Search came out and rescued the archetype.
Spirits
As for draws with Lantern Control, that isn't really a thing at the Professional Level. If we look at the last Modern Pro Tour, there were I believe 3 people playing Lantern Control. Between both Days 1 & 2, the decks (if I remember correctly) together had 1 match end in a draw. And said draw was against a wonderfully slow UW Control Player who ended the PT with 3 Draws.
So yeah, the main thing keeping pros away from Lantern is the sheer amount of time they need to dump into it. Though I wouldn't discount how the entire playstyle of the deck keeps some players away. I have seen more than one Tweet by PVDDR where he has essentially said he'd rather quit Magic than play Lantern Control, even if it was hands down the best deck in Modern.
Now as for your opponents conceding, as a Lantern Player you just need to leverage the Judge Call. And I'm not being petty here. When I played Lantern Control at GP Toronto this year, I called the Judge on my opponent for slow play one round because he was intentionally stalling. He would draw his card, humm and haw for close to a minute, and then pass the turn. The judge gave him a warning because I was able to show through my bookeeping that the only cards he had in hand were lands, he had nothing in his graveyard he could cast because of Grafdigger's Cage, and he couldn't attack with any creatures because of Ensnaring Bridge. I'm sorry, but if you are going to be a salty jerk, then I will get you punished for it.
That being said, I only had to do that one round. In every other game I played, if I had my opponent in a lock, I just explained to them how the lock worked, and the situation they were in. Even in matches where we were on Game 3 and the loser would not make Day 2, I had my opponent concede. Because reasonable people will understand that you have demonstrated a loop that makes it so that they cannot win the game, and I will win the game. It is no different than conceding when someone starts storming off. Some people just have a juvenile and spiteful hatred for Lantern. For those people you just need to put in even practice with the deck where you can play swiftly and end games fast. That's all there is to it.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
And yet people GG and scoop all the time when a Tron opponent top decks their third Tron piece, or their Karn, etc.
The type of hatred people have for Lantern is just for Lantern. And don't get me wrong, I can understand why the deck can be annoying to play against. I am not holding a hatred of that against anyone. What I don't understand is the sentiment of pride people get from, "Well I am going to waste their time and ruin their tournament." Congratulations, you're a scumbag. Want a trophy?
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Would you be happy that you scooped early in a GP to Lantern to finish 13-2 to get 9th place when you could have done 13-1-1 and gotten 2nd on breakers? I literally don't care if I couldn't win or not. Being able to play AFTER the Swiss rounds are done is something that I enjoy doing. I hate not playing after the Swiss rounds. There was literally one time when I was happy to get 9th place - at a PTQ in Los Angeles where they awarded me a box - the same as the top 8 and I didn't want to play anymore because of perceived variance that I saw that day. That was a one time occurrence and I don't remember ever feeling like I was happy to not play the top 8 ever again.
@ktkenshinx - I wasn't saying anything about your post. I was genuinely asking you, would you scoop in that situation?
*You guys do understand that Legacy Cloudpost players would ask their opponents in round 1 if they wanted to have a TIE after beating them (2-0 or 2-1) so that they could be in the DRAW BRACKET, facing tons of Miracles all day (a matchup that literally is as close to 90/10 as you can get in MAgic.)?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The fact you don't (or pretend not to) understand politics doesn't change the facts. You admit you understand why people don't like the deck. The extremely simple next step is to understand the consequences. People won't make it easy for the lantern players for precisely the reason that they don't want their rank to grow. Feel free to tweak your deck to have a faster win-con. You are the one who chose to play a deck with a slow win-con, not your opponent.
PS: and on top of that, people regularly don't scoop to other decks. It's just those other decks, when they have the obvious win on the table, win in short order. Not scooping to Emrakul or Ulamog in Tron happens. The tron player justs win over the next turn or two.
as for conceding early, specifically against lantern...well i dunno. concessions are a controversial topic especially for MTGO where certain combos and interactions cant be done in a timely fashion and each player has their own clock. when i play paper magic it will depend on factors like the seriousness of the event, what game we are on, and my placement in the standings. im not just gonna hand lantern players the win without extensively gauging my ability to crawl back into the game nor am i going to waste the opponents time out of spite.
sportsmanship is nice and all, but the only things that matter are the rules of the game. outside of that expecting others to adhere to whatever personal codes of conduct you might have is a fools errand. the lantern lock isnt a deterministic loop, and if you cant win on time that is on you.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It's a real issue, even for UWR and I assume UW on MTGO.
Spirits
Claiming that Lantern is super skill-intensive now with an instant speed tutor for any lock piece now is just ego talking. This card made Lantern much much more forgiving to play while lowering the degree of difficulty in piloting.