Yeah, Jace is a good card, but this format has a turn 3 Karn as a thing. GGT is a ridiculous comparison because he was fine until cards like cathartic reunion and prized amalgam got printed. This format also has decks like Coco and BW Eldrazi with ETB creatures which Jace’s -1 is bad against. The format also has decks like BW tokens, GW Hatebears, and Tron which match up well against control. Jund has BBE and pulse.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Perhaps we can take it as understood that the poster meant Jace's Defeat.
I'm honestly starting to think his defeat may be one of the better answers in the format. Sorcery speed removal is not something you want to bank on as an answer against control. Instead of creature based damage or sorceries, it'll be interesting to see which faster answers become the most prominently used against Jace, or even BBE.
Perhaps we can take it as understood that the poster meant Jace's Defeat.
I'm honestly starting to think his defeat may be one of the better answers in the format. Sorcery speed removal is not something you want to bank on as an answer against control. Instead of creature based damage or sorceries, it'll be interesting to see which faster answers become the most prominently used against Jace, or even BBE.
I think I'd prefer countersquall or even just negate to jace's defeat. It isn't like there are a ton of blue creatures worth countering.
I think I'd prefer countersquall or even just negate to jace's defeat. It isn't like there are a ton of blue creatures worth countering.
True, even something like Disdainful Stroke might be a better answer to more threats in the format. However, I can certainly think of a few other blue spells I'd rather counter, not just creatures. (Although countering Snapcaster Mage is a not insignificant option.)
I think I'd prefer countersquall or even just negate to jace's defeat. It isn't like there are a ton of blue creatures worth countering.
True, even something like Disdainful Stroke might be a better answer to more threats in the format. However, I can certainly think of a few other blue spells I'd rather counter, not just creatures. (Although countering Snapcaster Mage is a not insignificant option.)
Forgot that one, but yes, stroke isn't a bad option either. Negate and countersquall can both counter any blue spell as well so I still think those are just more useful options, and countering the snap isn't a huge deal when you can just counter the spell he is targeting. I'd say the biggest loss moving from jace's defeat to negate like effects is not being able to counter storms creature engines.
Battleskull isn't even the most degenerate thing you can do with SFM. A turn 4 sword + equip that can't be countered is.
If you could easily tutor sword of fire and ice and get it into play around counter magic... that would shake up the format to such an absurd degree.
countermagic doesn't even see play in modern. The only useful part of that tap ability is that it cheats on mana. Swords aren't even played in modern in any archetype. Spot removal ends up tempoing you endlessly. The good part of sfm on modern is it is a 2 for 1 and a win condition for 4-6 mana over 2 turns. It still loses to combo and is easier to answer than a planeswalker. The argument against it isn't that it is a true name nemesis fpr modern. Its that it's above the curve for efficiency similar to goyf or drs. I would say that it is "safe" to unban in a similar way to why jace was "safe", it will skee the meta. I prefer sfm personally because it's much easier for every color to interact with, but I am biased in that my deck struggles more with jace than sfm. Jace obviously gives your more turns to draw your answer before it resolves even if that answer is snap bolt, hero's downfall, turn 3 thoughtseize or other awkward plays.
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Battleskull isn't even the most degenerate thing you can do with SFM. A turn 4 sword + equip that can't be countered is.
If you could easily tutor sword of fire and ice and get it into play around counter magic... that would shake up the format to such an absurd degree.
countermagic doesn't even see play in modern. The only useful part of that tap ability is that it cheats on mana. Swords aren't even played in modern in any archetype. Spot removal ends up tempoing you endlessly. The good part of sfm on modern is it is a 2 for 1 and a win condition for 4-6 mana over 2 turns. It still loses to combo and is easier to answer than a planeswalker. The argument against it isn't that it is a true name nemesis fpr modern. Its that it's above the curve for efficiency similar to goyf or drs. I would say that it is "safe" to unban in a similar way to why jace was "safe", it will skee the meta. I prefer sfm personally because it's much easier for every color to interact with, but I am biased in that my deck struggles more with jace than sfm. Jace obviously gives your more turns to draw your answer before it resolves even if that answer is snap bolt, hero's downfall, turn 3 thoughtseize or other awkward plays.
Swords are not played in modern because there is no way to effectively tutor them. Too easy to draw at the wrong time or when you don't need them.
Body + sword is extremely relative and powerful. Without it I would argue swords wouldn't even see play in legacy.
The reason why SFM is a riskier unban than jace is three-fold.
1) It would fit into more of the current top decks. Humans would play it. Death and Taxes would play it. Variants of control would play it.
2) SFM is good vs every deck other than combo. It's good vs aggro (get battleskull). It's good vs midrange (get battleskull or sword of light and shadow). It's good vs control (get fire and ice). It's even "ok" vs combo. Jace would actually be worse vs combo then SFM because SFM represents an absurdly fast clock (fire and ice). There is zero way a combo deck is beating a thalia with a sword of fire and ice equipped.
3) JTMS is extremely slow and does not fit well into an aggressive format like SFM would
EDIT: I actually don't think there is a single legacy deck that plays a sword without SFM.
I think you can easily make the argument that SFM is what makes swords playable.
haven't posted in a while, but thought i'd chime in given the announcement.
i think people are grossly overestimating the impact of jace being legal on A25 sales. those who weren't planning on buying into the set aren't going to suddenly change their minds on the offchance they get a specific mythic, and those who were planning on buying in were probably going to regardless.
chase cards being reprinted in standard legal sets is one thing, but A25 is a premier product targetting a pretty niche audience. a slightly higher perceived value per pack, on an already expensive product, shouldn't be drawing in any significant number of new customers.
as for gameplay i foresee jace being a 1 or 2-of in blue control shells with the biggest victims being delve threats due to the repeatable bounce effect.
there are already a ton of powerful 4cmc sorcery speed options, and jace just happens to be the best. getting to a stable enough position to cast it hasn't suddenly changed.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
Seriously folks dreadbore and liliana's defeat exists so do creatures with trample and burn spells.
Calm down until the card is even legal!
Dude, we had a Standard format with Maelstrom Pulse, Oblivion Ring, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, Blightning, and Martial Coup and Jace still saw massive play under the older Legend-Planeswalker Rule.
You have zero clue what you are talking about. If my opponent has to cast Dreadbore and you think it's as innocent as targeting as Riverwise Augur, you are sadly mistaken. Because that is the BEST CASE scenario. Worse case scenario is you lose the game. The polarization of 4 mana in this format just got extreme.
Do not mislead others into believing Jace can be 1-4-1'd. It cannot, and never will be.
Swords are not played in modern because there is no way to effectively tutor them. Too easy to draw at the wrong time or when you don't need them.
The reason why SFM is a riskier unban than jace is three-fold.
1) It would fit into more of the current top decks. Humans would play it. Death and Taxes would play it. Variants of control would play it.
2) SFM is good vs every deck other than combo. It's good vs aggro (get battleskull). It's good vs midrange (get battleskull or sword of light and shadow). It's good vs control (get fire and ice). It's even "ok" vs combo. Jace would actually be worse vs combo then SFM because SFM represents an absurdly fast clock (fire and ice). There is zero way a combo deck is beating a thalia with a sword of fire and ice equipped.
3) JTMS is extremely slow and does not fit well into an aggressive format like SFM would
Again, there is steelshaper's gift if the swords were really that powerful. It isn't the lack of ability to get them that keeps them from being played; it is the plethora of cheap removal that makes paying 2 to equip only to have your creature killed in response not very enticing. I was honestly most excited about using SFM to tutor up grafted wargear.
Humans would more than likely not play SFM. Not only is SFM not a human so it doesn't trigger things like champion of the parish or thalia's lieutenant, but they would have a lot of difficulty casting it when 8 of your lands can only make colored mana for humans. In addition, they would almost certainly never be able to activate her when 12 of their lands only add mana for creatures. Similarly, adding equipment to humans both dilutes the value of aether vial, but also makes thalia, guardian of thraben worse. It would be a completely different deck to make the concessions to play SFM and we would likely see two distinct strategies emerge.
Similarly, D&T would need to alter their gameplan away from leonin arbiter. They definitely would but it isn't as simple as just removing the 6 worst cards for the SFM package. Also who is calling D&T a top deck?
Some control decks (and not all) would use her, but then they are giving the opponent a target for the removal that is usually dead against control. All of the "she's good vs..." talk may or may not be true, but to call SFM "an absurdly fast clock" is clearly incorrect.
Swords are not played in modern because there is no way to effectively tutor them. Too easy to draw at the wrong time or when you don't need them.
The reason why SFM is a riskier unban than jace is three-fold.
1) It would fit into more of the current top decks. Humans would play it. Death and Taxes would play it. Variants of control would play it.
2) SFM is good vs every deck other than combo. It's good vs aggro (get battleskull). It's good vs midrange (get battleskull or sword of light and shadow). It's good vs control (get fire and ice). It's even "ok" vs combo. Jace would actually be worse vs combo then SFM because SFM represents an absurdly fast clock (fire and ice). There is zero way a combo deck is beating a thalia with a sword of fire and ice equipped.
3) JTMS is extremely slow and does not fit well into an aggressive format like SFM would
Again, there is steelshaper's gift if the swords were really that powerful. It isn't the lack of ability to get them that keeps them from being played; it is the plethora of cheap removal that makes paying 2 to equip only to have your creature killed in response not very enticing. I was honestly most excited about using SFM to tutor up grafted wargear.
Humans would more than likely not play SFM. Not only is SFM not a human so it doesn't trigger things like champion of the parish or thalia's lieutenant, but they would have a lot of difficulty casting it when 8 of your lands can only make colored mana for humans. In addition, they would almost certainly never be able to activate her when 12 of their lands only add mana for creatures. Similarly, adding equipment to humans both dilutes the value of aether vial, but also makes thalia, guardian of thraben worse. It would be a completely different deck to make the concessions to play SFM and we would likely see two distinct strategies emerge.
Similarly, D&T would need to alter their gameplan away from leonin arbiter. They definitely would but it isn't as simple as just removing the 6 worst cards for the SFM package. Also who is calling D&T a top deck?
Some control decks (and not all) would use her, but then they are giving the opponent a target for the removal that is usually dead against control. All of the "she's good vs..." talk may or may not be true, but to call SFM "an absurdly fast clock" is clearly incorrect.
Notice I said body + tutor. steelshaper's gift doesn't see play because if you don't have a body it worthless.
There is cheaper removal in legacy... plus "free counter spells". But SFM is still a format defining card.
Humans would most likely play it. Sure it doesn't trigger champion or thalia, but a turn 4 battle skull or sword to equip is probably better.
My point is that small creature removal is more prevalent in modern than in legacy because the diversity of threats is greater in legacy. According to MTGOldfish's "most commonly played legacy creatures list" SFM is #5. Delver is #2, Snapcaster is #4, and Young Pyromancer is #6 yet those range from not great to awesome in modern. None of the swords or batterskull crack the top 50 spells, with Jitte being the only legit SFM target on the list.
It's a great card and they aren't going to unban it but these are different formats with different metas and just because something is borderline format defining in one doesn't mean it will be broken in another.
I gave WotC the benefit of the doubt, so many times, that they knew what they were doing. Sure, they messed up with Standard quite a bit lately. But I figured that they assessed the situation, found a logical solution based on data, and implemented it.
I've been watching/playing games with Jace quite a bit since the announcement. Results? Those not playing Jace getting trounced. Those beating Jace are playing Jace decks.
There seem to be four main forms of Jace decks at the moment that are doing well. The Temur lists, that include Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch, to cast early Bloodbraid Elves and cascade into threats (or Ancestral Visions), and follow up with Jace. There are the UW lists, that run Spreading Seas and Field of Ruin in addition to countermagic, Detention Spheres, and creature removal, to stabilize into Jace/Gideon. Then there are the UB lists, that combine Jace with massive early discard, Seas, Field of Ruins, Ensnaring Bridge, Search for Azcanta, and Liliana of the Veil.
Do not mislead others into believing Jace can be 1-4-1'd. It cannot, and never will be.
Never claimed 1 for 1'd the guy brainstorms when he enters at best it's a 2 for 1 and likely improves the quality of the next draw step (at least).
Jace still has to compete with storm, 5 flavours of hyper linear aggro, several go wide decks (either young pyromancer or coco decks) or decks that just go over the top turn 3 karn says hello (in fact I suspect people will sandbag karn and just kill your jace with him).
Not denying he'll be good, but this isn't any standard format ever. Comparing any cards power in it's standard to modern is a useless exercise, they are so extremely different.
Good yes, gamebreaking maybe, but we should maybe wait a few days and play with it before going all Chicken Little (Henny Penny in UK) on the format.
For what it's worth I'm starting with thoughtseize, bitterblossom, spellstutter sprite, liliana of the veil and JtMS with lots of removal and field of ruins
Yeah, nice unbans WotC I can still get turn 3 Karn'd so when I'm playing my fair decks i'm not too worried about running into Jace still. Some of you are just repeating talking points and remembering how Jace+SFM was the boogeman in standard. I'm more concerned about being killed by infect on turn 3 and getting Goryo blasted than I am about dealing against controls finisher that wont even get cast till turn 6 the majority of the time.
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Turn 3 Karn is not very common at all. Are we literally at the point of just fishing up whatever excuse fits the narrative? Jace is freakishly powerful and people playing him down are severely underestimating what he can do. He is as bit of z win more card, not going to argue that, but he can drag games out that should just end.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Turn 3 Karn is not very common at all. Are we literally at the point of just fishing up whatever excuse fits the narrative? Jace is freakishly powerful and people playing him down are severely underestimating what he can do. He is as bit of z win more card, not going to argue that, but he can drag games out that should just end.
Odd you say that because how are those games ending that get dragged out? With the blue players losing.
So, some arguments I've heard for Jace being fair seem to revolve around:
The bar for tapping four lands during one's main phase to cast a single spell is quite high, often restricted to cards that threaten to win the game immediately.
True. Well, let's say that we wanted to build a deck with Jace in it. We don't necessarily have to use an existing shell. Who's to say that we can't just start from scratch? So how do we resolve the issue of casting a 4cmc sorcery speed spell and not simply losing afterwards? How would we resolve that problem? Maybe the same way that decks like Grixis Shadow doesn't just have it's Shadow removed after it's played? Of course! Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek exist! They're pretty decent plays for early turn disruption.
But what if the opponent somehow gets creatures into play, though the disruption, before (or despite) being fatesealed by Jace? Lots of spot removal? Board wipes? Those were also tested in the early stages of Lantern. Turns out there was a better card, Ensnaring Bridge.
But that nonbo's with Jace's +0 ability, doesn't it? Well, ya, sure. But if a creature is small enough to swing under a Bridge at that point, is it big enough to pose a real threat to Jace before emptying our hand the following turn? Especially after playing out so many low cmc spells on turns one through three? What card exists that could deal with those smaller creatures, allows us to dump our hand, and isn't just dead against control matchups? Oh yeah, Collective Brutality seems good. That also solves the whole "Burn would love a 4cmc sorcery speed spell!". Also seems to have worked really well against Infect, etc. Both of those decks really don't like that 2cmc one.
But what about decks like Tron? How would you combat that? Are there any blue cards that exist in Modern that would help there? Oh, duh, Spreading Seas. And, while we're at it, why not run Field of Ruins, just in case.
Okay, so good, so far. So what's more frustrating than fighting through all of that, trying to remove a planeswalker that's fatesealing and ticking up to ultimate? I suppose trying to fight through all of that, trying to remove two planeswalkers ticking up to ultimate. Liliana of the Veil also helps us dump our hand for Bridge. Well that's helpful.
That's a lot of copies of cards that might be pretty bad topdecks. Hmm...Oh! Search for Azcanta! It's pretty good on curve, too. Let's us filter our draws early game to dig to Bridge/Brutality/Lili/Jace, but is also pretty good late game to dig to more Seas and Ruins to disrupt the opponent's manabase.
Of course, Wizards probably already thought of all of this when they were considering unbanning Jace.
[quote from="knto »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/789239-the-state-of-modern-thread-b-r-10-02-18?comment=262"]The reason why SFM is a riskier unban than jace is three-fold.
1) It would fit into more of the current top decks. Humans would play it. Death and Taxes would play it. Variants of control would play it.
I find it very doubtful that Humans would play Stoneforge Mystic. One can watch the Pro Tour for examples of how the deck can have trouble casting anything that isn't a Human (e.g. Kataki), but it's even worse with Stoneforge Mystic because a key strength of that card is its ability to put equipment into play. A major facet to Human's success is its ability to run 12 rainbow lands with essentially no drawback. But none of those rainbow lands can be utilized to activate Stoneforge Mystic. Not one of them! To properly utilize Stoneforge Mystic, Humans will have to trade in rainbow lands that have basically no drawback in favor of much worse cards like Mana Confluence or City of Brass.
Beyond that, Humans is an aggro deck. Certainly, there's disruption in it, but it's still very aggressive. Spending several turns and a bunch of mana for Stoneforge Mystic while not putting actual pressure on the opponent does not seem to fit well into the deck's strategy.
You are completely correct that it'd be an all-star in Death & Taxes, but Death & Taxes is not a top deck of the format.
2) SFM is good vs every deck other than combo. It's good vs aggro (get battleskull). It's good vs midrange (get battleskull or sword of light and shadow). It's good vs control (get fire and ice). It's even "ok" vs combo. Jace would actually be worse vs combo then SFM because SFM represents an absurdly fast clock (fire and ice). There is zero way a combo deck is beating a thalia with a sword of fire and ice equipped.
It feels like one can mount the same argument for Tarmogoyf. It's good vs aggro (it's a cheap wall), good vs midrange (it's a good attacker), and it's good against control (same).
As for Sword of Fire and Ice providing an absurdly fast clock, we need to remember that while it might be fast once assembled, it takes several turns to pull it off. You can't actually attack with anything attached to that until turn 4 at the earliest, and in the meantime you've just been fuddling around casting Stoneforge and then casting (or sneaking) the Sword into play. You might have great pressure starting on turn 4, but you've presented absolutely nothing in the way of pressure in the interim.
As for Thalia+Sword, the decks that run Thalia already have great combo matchups in general, so I don't see this as changing that much.
3) JTMS is extremely slow and does not fit well into an aggressive format like SFM would
This is the best point you raise, but I feel I should point out that while Jace is slow, you can do whatever you want on your first three turns before casting him. Stoneforge isn't really able to start doing its thing until turn 4 (turn 3 if Batterskull blocking is relevant), and that requires you to spend turn 2 casting the thing and turn 3 spending most or all of your mana getting the equipment into play.
Turn 3 Karn is not very common at all. Are we literally at the point of just fishing up whatever excuse fits the narrative? Jace is freakishly powerful and people playing him down are severely underestimating what he can do. He is as bit of z win more card, not going to argue that, but he can drag games out that should just end.
Odd you say that because how are those games ending that get dragged out? With the blue players losing.
How about someone picks a better example of "you beat Jace by going under him" than a gold fish plan with a karn in tron for turn 3?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
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Yeah, Jace is a good card, but this format has a turn 3 Karn as a thing. GGT is a ridiculous comparison because he was fine until cards like cathartic reunion and prized amalgam got printed. This format also has decks like Coco and BW Eldrazi with ETB creatures which Jace’s -1 is bad against. The format also has decks like BW tokens, GW Hatebears, and Tron which match up well against control. Jund has BBE and pulse.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Perhaps we can take it as understood that the poster meant Jace's Defeat.
I'm honestly starting to think his defeat may be one of the better answers in the format. Sorcery speed removal is not something you want to bank on as an answer against control. Instead of creature based damage or sorceries, it'll be interesting to see which faster answers become the most prominently used against Jace, or even BBE.
I think I'd prefer countersquall or even just negate to jace's defeat. It isn't like there are a ton of blue creatures worth countering.
True, even something like Disdainful Stroke might be a better answer to more threats in the format. However, I can certainly think of a few other blue spells I'd rather counter, not just creatures. (Although countering Snapcaster Mage is a not insignificant option.)
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Forgot that one, but yes, stroke isn't a bad option either. Negate and countersquall can both counter any blue spell as well so I still think those are just more useful options, and countering the snap isn't a huge deal when you can just counter the spell he is targeting. I'd say the biggest loss moving from jace's defeat to negate like effects is not being able to counter storms creature engines.
Swords are not played in modern because there is no way to effectively tutor them. Too easy to draw at the wrong time or when you don't need them.
Body + sword is extremely relative and powerful. Without it I would argue swords wouldn't even see play in legacy.
The reason why SFM is a riskier unban than jace is three-fold.
1) It would fit into more of the current top decks. Humans would play it. Death and Taxes would play it. Variants of control would play it.
2) SFM is good vs every deck other than combo. It's good vs aggro (get battleskull). It's good vs midrange (get battleskull or sword of light and shadow). It's good vs control (get fire and ice). It's even "ok" vs combo. Jace would actually be worse vs combo then SFM because SFM represents an absurdly fast clock (fire and ice). There is zero way a combo deck is beating a thalia with a sword of fire and ice equipped.
3) JTMS is extremely slow and does not fit well into an aggressive format like SFM would
EDIT: I actually don't think there is a single legacy deck that plays a sword without SFM.
I think you can easily make the argument that SFM is what makes swords playable.
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i think people are grossly overestimating the impact of jace being legal on A25 sales. those who weren't planning on buying into the set aren't going to suddenly change their minds on the offchance they get a specific mythic, and those who were planning on buying in were probably going to regardless.
chase cards being reprinted in standard legal sets is one thing, but A25 is a premier product targetting a pretty niche audience. a slightly higher perceived value per pack, on an already expensive product, shouldn't be drawing in any significant number of new customers.
as for gameplay i foresee jace being a 1 or 2-of in blue control shells with the biggest victims being delve threats due to the repeatable bounce effect.
there are already a ton of powerful 4cmc sorcery speed options, and jace just happens to be the best. getting to a stable enough position to cast it hasn't suddenly changed.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Dude, we had a Standard format with Maelstrom Pulse, Oblivion Ring, Lightning Bolt, Terminate, Blightning, and Martial Coup and Jace still saw massive play under the older Legend-Planeswalker Rule.
You have zero clue what you are talking about. If my opponent has to cast Dreadbore and you think it's as innocent as targeting as Riverwise Augur, you are sadly mistaken. Because that is the BEST CASE scenario. Worse case scenario is you lose the game. The polarization of 4 mana in this format just got extreme.
Do not mislead others into believing Jace can be 1-4-1'd. It cannot, and never will be.
Again, there is steelshaper's gift if the swords were really that powerful. It isn't the lack of ability to get them that keeps them from being played; it is the plethora of cheap removal that makes paying 2 to equip only to have your creature killed in response not very enticing. I was honestly most excited about using SFM to tutor up grafted wargear.
Humans would more than likely not play SFM. Not only is SFM not a human so it doesn't trigger things like champion of the parish or thalia's lieutenant, but they would have a lot of difficulty casting it when 8 of your lands can only make colored mana for humans. In addition, they would almost certainly never be able to activate her when 12 of their lands only add mana for creatures. Similarly, adding equipment to humans both dilutes the value of aether vial, but also makes thalia, guardian of thraben worse. It would be a completely different deck to make the concessions to play SFM and we would likely see two distinct strategies emerge.
Similarly, D&T would need to alter their gameplan away from leonin arbiter. They definitely would but it isn't as simple as just removing the 6 worst cards for the SFM package. Also who is calling D&T a top deck?
Some control decks (and not all) would use her, but then they are giving the opponent a target for the removal that is usually dead against control. All of the "she's good vs..." talk may or may not be true, but to call SFM "an absurdly fast clock" is clearly incorrect.
Notice I said body + tutor. steelshaper's gift doesn't see play because if you don't have a body it worthless.
There is cheaper removal in legacy... plus "free counter spells". But SFM is still a format defining card.
Humans would most likely play it. Sure it doesn't trigger champion or thalia, but a turn 4 battle skull or sword to equip is probably better.
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Current Decks
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Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
It's a great card and they aren't going to unban it but these are different formats with different metas and just because something is borderline format defining in one doesn't mean it will be broken in another.
The issue is that you have to hit Wheel of Fate off BBE or it's worthless. T5 wheel is just not impressive.
I gave WotC the benefit of the doubt, so many times, that they knew what they were doing. Sure, they messed up with Standard quite a bit lately. But I figured that they assessed the situation, found a logical solution based on data, and implemented it.
I've been watching/playing games with Jace quite a bit since the announcement. Results? Those not playing Jace getting trounced. Those beating Jace are playing Jace decks.
There seem to be four main forms of Jace decks at the moment that are doing well. The Temur lists, that include Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch, to cast early Bloodbraid Elves and cascade into threats (or Ancestral Visions), and follow up with Jace. There are the UW lists, that run Spreading Seas and Field of Ruin in addition to countermagic, Detention Spheres, and creature removal, to stabilize into Jace/Gideon. Then there are the UB lists, that combine Jace with massive early discard, Seas, Field of Ruins, Ensnaring Bridge, Search for Azcanta, and Liliana of the Veil.
This is simply absurd.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Brain dumb - Jace's (I was writing about a deck I wanna play with bitterblossom, lili and jace) point was many answers in lots of colours.
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
Never claimed 1 for 1'd the guy brainstorms when he enters at best it's a 2 for 1 and likely improves the quality of the next draw step (at least).
Jace still has to compete with storm, 5 flavours of hyper linear aggro, several go wide decks (either young pyromancer or coco decks) or decks that just go over the top turn 3 karn says hello (in fact I suspect people will sandbag karn and just kill your jace with him).
Not denying he'll be good, but this isn't any standard format ever. Comparing any cards power in it's standard to modern is a useless exercise, they are so extremely different.
Good yes, gamebreaking maybe, but we should maybe wait a few days and play with it before going all Chicken Little (Henny Penny in UK) on the format.
For what it's worth I'm starting with thoughtseize, bitterblossom, spellstutter sprite, liliana of the veil and JtMS with lots of removal and field of ruins
Legacy - LED Dredge, ANT & WDnT
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Odd you say that because how are those games ending that get dragged out? With the blue players losing.
True. Well, let's say that we wanted to build a deck with Jace in it. We don't necessarily have to use an existing shell. Who's to say that we can't just start from scratch? So how do we resolve the issue of casting a 4cmc sorcery speed spell and not simply losing afterwards? How would we resolve that problem? Maybe the same way that decks like Grixis Shadow doesn't just have it's Shadow removed after it's played? Of course! Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek exist! They're pretty decent plays for early turn disruption.
But what if the opponent somehow gets creatures into play, though the disruption, before (or despite) being fatesealed by Jace? Lots of spot removal? Board wipes? Those were also tested in the early stages of Lantern. Turns out there was a better card, Ensnaring Bridge.
But that nonbo's with Jace's +0 ability, doesn't it? Well, ya, sure. But if a creature is small enough to swing under a Bridge at that point, is it big enough to pose a real threat to Jace before emptying our hand the following turn? Especially after playing out so many low cmc spells on turns one through three? What card exists that could deal with those smaller creatures, allows us to dump our hand, and isn't just dead against control matchups? Oh yeah, Collective Brutality seems good. That also solves the whole "Burn would love a 4cmc sorcery speed spell!". Also seems to have worked really well against Infect, etc. Both of those decks really don't like that 2cmc one.
But what about decks like Tron? How would you combat that? Are there any blue cards that exist in Modern that would help there? Oh, duh, Spreading Seas. And, while we're at it, why not run Field of Ruins, just in case.
Okay, so good, so far. So what's more frustrating than fighting through all of that, trying to remove a planeswalker that's fatesealing and ticking up to ultimate? I suppose trying to fight through all of that, trying to remove two planeswalkers ticking up to ultimate. Liliana of the Veil also helps us dump our hand for Bridge. Well that's helpful.
That's a lot of copies of cards that might be pretty bad topdecks. Hmm...Oh! Search for Azcanta! It's pretty good on curve, too. Let's us filter our draws early game to dig to Bridge/Brutality/Lili/Jace, but is also pretty good late game to dig to more Seas and Ruins to disrupt the opponent's manabase.
Of course, Wizards probably already thought of all of this when they were considering unbanning Jace.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Beyond that, Humans is an aggro deck. Certainly, there's disruption in it, but it's still very aggressive. Spending several turns and a bunch of mana for Stoneforge Mystic while not putting actual pressure on the opponent does not seem to fit well into the deck's strategy.
You are completely correct that it'd be an all-star in Death & Taxes, but Death & Taxes is not a top deck of the format.
It feels like one can mount the same argument for Tarmogoyf. It's good vs aggro (it's a cheap wall), good vs midrange (it's a good attacker), and it's good against control (same).
As for Sword of Fire and Ice providing an absurdly fast clock, we need to remember that while it might be fast once assembled, it takes several turns to pull it off. You can't actually attack with anything attached to that until turn 4 at the earliest, and in the meantime you've just been fuddling around casting Stoneforge and then casting (or sneaking) the Sword into play. You might have great pressure starting on turn 4, but you've presented absolutely nothing in the way of pressure in the interim.
As for Thalia+Sword, the decks that run Thalia already have great combo matchups in general, so I don't see this as changing that much.
This is the best point you raise, but I feel I should point out that while Jace is slow, you can do whatever you want on your first three turns before casting him. Stoneforge isn't really able to start doing its thing until turn 4 (turn 3 if Batterskull blocking is relevant), and that requires you to spend turn 2 casting the thing and turn 3 spending most or all of your mana getting the equipment into play.
How about someone picks a better example of "you beat Jace by going under him" than a gold fish plan with a karn in tron for turn 3?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!