(Hollow One) is much more resilient than Dredge because while going similarly wide and fast, graveyard hate is often nothing more than a speed bump for it, and there aren't any other effective forms of hate for it either.
I'm pretty skeptical that that card will have a large impact given that it doesn't stop the broken draws on turn 1 or turn 2 on the play, nor does it do anything to Bloodghast/Phoenix. That and it can easily be Ancient Grudged.
.
Technically, Ugin being cast doesn't win the game; activating him does. That might seem a pointless distinction until you consider Suppression Field.
Bogles stopped playing Suppression Field way before Ugin, the Spirit Dragon was printed. I personally stopped way before that because it messed with my fetchlands, of which I ran 8, to play more around Liliana of the Veil and to find Dryad Arbors easier in matchups where I need to find a creature quickly.
Playing Pyroclasm slows Tron down too, as usually they are playing a non-Tron land (although I realize that they can play Star into crack/Pyroclasm and still get natural Tron. I guess technically it slows Bogles down a bit more since the Star/Sphere interaction.
I will concede the All is Dust in Tron lists. Just because I never saw the card until someone turn 3ed me on Little Kid Abzan doesn't mean that many Tron players ran that before. But the GR Trons that I played never cast that card on me and I never saw it (maybe they hid it when I had Gaddock Teeg?). I'm truly not lying when I say the first I ever saw the card was when it got me on Little Kid. I have no reason to lie about this.
*Lastly, yes, I did not pay any attention to the deck. I usually just paid attention to decks that ended up getting banned or decks that caused me problems in my own meta (mostly decks that ended up getting banned). The first 13 matches I played against GR Tron, I won. I assumed it was an easy matchup. I didn't realize that yes, it was favored, but only slightly and I had good variance in many of those matches. The decks I paid attention to were decks that stomped Bogles like Bloom Titan, Splinter Twin, Storm, Infect, and other super quick combo decks. These were HUGE problems for the deck, outside of the very variance that you can get.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
yeah im dubious of damping sphere's effectiveness. id probably bring it in if i didnt have much going on and i needed all the help i could get.
even still there are decks and cards that are good against hollow one. it wouldnt be a good deck if it wasnt attacking from some angle that people have trouble with.
that said, the deck has been on a non stop upward trajectory since the pro tour. if it continues at this pace for much longer then it may become prudent to ask if it is crossing some line. i dont think we are there yet though.
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I'll throw this out there again, but since Hollow One has really ticked up in my local meta, I've been toying with having Reality Shift in my SB instead of Murderous Cut for my UB Faeries, and it's worked pretty well. It hits the deck on two fronts: one, it exiles which is optimal, and two, the manifest effect really hurts them because even if it's one of their creatures, they often can't cast it.
This question might be a touch insane, but is it time to start considering removing Umezawa's Jitte from the Modern banned list?
Basically, I'm questioning whether the card is as overpowered as the shadows of the past made it out to be (if anything Jace is the most recent proof that perception doesn't always equate fact). Our experiences with Umezawa's Jitte are somewhat colored by it's time during the Kamigawa block season (where it was b.u.s.t.e.d.) and old Extended, where it was good but not good enough to warrant a ban. Modern is has a much larger card pool then either of those formats so it makes sense to me that it should be able to handle it.
The other consideration is the two legend rule changes that have happened since it got banned from Modern in the first place. While the Kamigawa legend rule made it a really obnoxious card, I think the subsequent rules changes made the card that much less so. You can actually have a Jitte of your own to try and keep up with the opponents (though I admit that fighting over getting a hit in with said equipment is much more difficult that it seems but at least that is a legitimate subgame).
Finally, I would once again wish to refer to the enormous card pool Modern has right now. Besides having some of the best spot removal spells in the history of the game, a plethora of playable maindeck artifact removal, the format also has a bunch of sick decks that can kill you outright before you even get the first counters on Jitte. An active Jitte on turn 4 isn't as bad as a Grapeshot kill on turn 4, Karn on turn 3 or Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2.
Those are my thoughts on this issue. Am I missing something?
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
This question might be a touch insane, but is it time to start considering removing Umezawa's Jitte from the Modern banned list?
Basically, I'm questioning whether the card is as overpowered as the shadows of the past made it out to be (if anything Jace is the most recent proof that perception doesn't always equate fact). Our experiences with Umezawa's Jitte are somewhat colored by it's time during the Kamigawa block season (where it was b.u.s.t.e.d.) and old Extended, where it was good but not good enough to warrant a ban. Modern is has a much larger card pool then either of those formats so it makes sense to me that it should be able to handle it.
The other consideration is the two legend rule changes that have happened since it got banned from Modern in the first place. While the Kamigawa legend rule made it a really obnoxious card, I think the subsequent rules changes made the card that much less so. You can actually have a Jitte of your own to try and keep up with the opponents (though I admit that fighting over getting a hit in with said equipment is much more difficult that it seems but at least that is a legitimate subgame).
Finally, I would once again wish to refer to the enormous card pool Modern has right now. Besides having some of the best spot removal spells in the history of the game, a plethora of playable maindeck artifact removal, the format also has a bunch of sick decks that can kill you outright before you even get the first counters on Jitte. An active Jitte on turn 4 isn't as bad as a Grapeshot kill on turn 4, Karn on turn 3 or Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2.
Those are my thoughts on this issue. Am I missing something?
Comparing Jitte to Grapeshot or Karn is a false equivalency and if i see this comparison one more time I might go crazy. A better comparison is something like Hypergensis vs Grapeshot being two combo cards, rather than comparing an Equipment to a Combo card to a Planeswalker. All cards call for 3 decks that are trying to do 3 entirely different things.
The usual counter argument against Jitte is that it can push out aggro too much, in a format where aggro is not always that great.
I personally think it could possibly be a good unban since I think that a deck like burn needs better answers. Thing is, there will be other ramifications against other aggro decks than just burn. Such as Aggro vs Aggro, or Midrange vs Aggro could come down to whoever hits with Jitte first wins.
Like Pistallion says, you don't want a card that is going to be in every Aggro and Midrange deck, while requiring an answer immediately. I really feel that Jitte was nearly a designer mistake, although I realize many players say that about the cards I love as well. It is true that Modern has a lot more answers than Standard did at the time and is also a much stronger format, but it's hard to have a format strong enough for Jitte. Have you seen what Jitte does in the Legacy format? Outside of quick Combo, every deck cares about Jitte.
I mean, I realize that I am the one to say that Swords of X and Y see no Modern play because it is a death sentence to have your creature Fatal Pushed in response. Jitte is another animal. Just 1 swing and connect can change the complete texture of the game.
The more I think about it, it seems that Jitte is not quite as bad as most people think, at least for Modern. Still, I think there are at least 8 other cards to consider before it. I am on the cusp of believing that Modern some day will be strong enough to support it or won't be.
*Lastly, I don't think you can fight someone's Jitte. Why? They can remove counters to make sure your creature doesn't get there. Basically this turns into a game of "who drew Jitte first," which is a terrible game to play (yes, I know it happens in other formats).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Fair points all. I agree that comparing an active equipment to combo kills is a fallacy but the point I was trying to make is that it isn't really as bad as we remember it to be. Same thing goes for JTMS.
The play pattern in aggro vs. aggro matchups involving jitte would probably be more interesting then we give it credit for, especially now with all the new toys we have. At worst it is powerful but not in a disparaging way.
What decks actively want to have access to Umezawa's Jitte right now? I can't imagine it is a large number of them, most of them are fringe tiers so if this card bumps them up to tier 2 or 1.5 then more power to it.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
You're looking at it wrong by only focusing on what decks WANT jitte. Jitte is a highly polarizing card with the ability to turn an entire format into Jitte vs Jitte decks. It's not whether anything WANTS jitte. Every single deck with a few creatures will just play a couple.
I prefer to look at it this way: how does the format improve with Jitte? The last two unbans could be justified with BBE taking the blame for DRS, while control and blue midrange is weak enough that Jace could provide a shot in the arm. Jitte doesn't fix a past error or help a lagging archetype. One trigger is enough to completely screw up a game. **** that. We don't need to bring up every single banned card.
You're looking at it wrong by only focusing on what decks WANT jitte. Jitte is a highly polarizing card with the ability to turn an entire format into Jitte vs Jitte decks. It's not whether anything WANTS jitte. Every single deck with a few creatures will just play a couple.
I prefer to look at it this way: how does the format improve with Jitte? The last two unbans could be justified with BBE taking the blame for DRS, while control and blue midrange is weak enough that Jace could provide a shot in the arm. Jitte doesn't fix a past error or help a lagging archetype. One trigger is enough to completely screw up a game. **** that. We don't need to bring up every single banned card.
ive been trying to get people to ask themselves this question about any of the unbans. the prevailing response seems to be that cards that dont seem too powerful should just not be on the banlist out of principle. /shrug
im not even sure jitte would be good in modern. the creature set that is played is entirely different than legacy, and decks just jamming a few copies for no reason other than that they play creatures is nonsense.
one thing is for sure though. if you want SFM in the format, then jitte is going to be staying right where it is.
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ive been trying to get people to ask themselves this question about any of the unbans. the prevailing response seems to be that cards that dont seem too powerful should just not be on the banlist out of principle. /shrug
I know that this is always my response when I am talking about taking something off of the Modern banned list. If a card isn't too powerful, why is it banned? If it is on the banned list because it not being there would allow a completely broken deck to be in the format, then you can't say it isn't a powerful card can you?
With concerns to cards being banned, for me there are only 3 reasons a card should be banned in Modern:
1) The card's existence in the format warps the format around whatever deck it is in. This can be seen as a card that makes a specific deck very powerful and format warping (Deathrite Shaman/Eye of Ugin), or a card that adds too much consistency too a deck, making it too large of a metagame share because it is the obvious best deck (Rite of Flame/Ponder).
2) The card is just way too damn powerful. It's a case where in a lot of instances if you aren't running this card you're either playing a specific deck it is bad in, or you're just being bad (Umezawa's Jitte/Treasure Cruise)
3) The card isn't overly powerful, but is definitely strong in Modern in a way that can restrict what WotC wants to develop and release in future sets (Stoneforge Mystic/Birthing Pod)
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
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yeah i figure that it isnt something that can really be argued about because its just an opinion on how the banlist should be curated.
at this point i am just trying to be the voice of caution. advocating unbans is fine, but you have to admit that there is a risk that the format could just get worse. be careful what you wish for and all that.
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I'm honestly not even willing to have a serious discussion about Jitte with anyone who hasn't got years of serious legacy play under their belt; I don't think the card can be discussed without reference to how polarizing it still is in Legacy in creature matchups. To this day Merfolk decks (admittedly fringe) still play a bunch of phantasmal images because if the opponent drops a stoneforge into jitte, they lose. Eldrazi played as many as 2 main deck jittes for similar reasons.
The card just utterly dominates creature matchups in an extremely awkward way. We do not want it in modern.
It was so busted that people played Jittes just to counter jittes before the legend rule, and now it'll see play as a random 1-of in any deck looking to keep its creatures alive.
If there were a storm scale for cards getting unbanned, I would put Jitte left of Seething Song.
(The reason for that, for the record, is that Seething Song has replacement bans, much like summer Bloom. There is an argument for allowing busted enablers but killing finishers or other enablers such as Amulet or Grapeshot or PIF, etc. With jitte, once you loose it you can't do anything but reban it because its individual power level is the problem. Same with Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time).
Seething Song will only be free when they gut Storm for good by banning Grapeshot.
Which is kind of my point. With Seething Song you can watch the meta develop and then do something, even though I am sure it would be horrible. But Jitte will just be Jitte, and we know how that goes for creatures.
Stoneforge is another good example; we can unban stoneforge and if Batterskull actually presents a problem (It won't) you can ban it and let the kor live.
When thinking about unbans it's good to think about the potential consequences and whether the right card was banned in the first place. For instance, if Sword of the Meek had proven unfair there were a crapload of potential options to weaken such a deck -- banning mox Opal for example would be on the table, or Ensnaring Bridge or Thirst for Knowledge even.
And no I am not talking about banning any of those cards, just saying that if you can't think of any other card that might be the actual problem, it's a good reason for it to stay banned.
Well I think Ensnaring Bridge is lucky that Humans are a dominant aggro force cause if it actually started locking down creature combat...it would definitely get slammed by the ban hammer.
I also feel that Seething Song is around 5 or 6 in the next cards to potentially be unbanned, but I rarely mention it because people here put it in the same category as Deathrite Shaman or Umezawa's Jitte.
@tronix - An unban doesn't have to make the format better. If Squire was banned, it SHOULD get unbanned. Does it help the format? Not even 0.00000000000000000001%. But it should be an option for players because it doesn't fit Wizard's criteria for banning. Other cards that may get unbanned are not quite at that level obviously, but should be legal options if they don't push the format towards degeneracy.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I also feel that Seething Song is around 5 or 6 in the next cards to potentially be unbanned, but I rarely mention it because people here put it in the same category as Deathrite Shaman or Umezawa's Jitte.
@tronix - An unban doesn't have to make the format better. If Squire was banned, it SHOULD get unbanned. Does it help the format? Not even 0.00000000000000000001%. But it should be an option for players because it doesn't fit Wizard's criteria for banning. Other cards that may get unbanned are not quite at that level obviously, but should be legal options if they don't push the format towards degeneracy.
I don't know I am no Storm expert. On paper it seems like it will be effective but if it doesn't work then yeah if I was Storm Fan I be expecting for Grapeshot to get it.
I‘ve never experienced the troubles Jitte caused and can only try to imagine what it must have been like.
One thing I‘d like to point out however @FoodChainGoblins, is that „this card is going to be in every XYZ deck“, „requires an answer immediately“, „see what it did in Legacy“ and „every deck cares about [...]“ were used when discussing the JTMS unban just recently. Modern still seems to be doing fine so far. Maybe there’s a possibility that not every deck cares about Jitte - the same way as not every blue deck runs an auto 4-of JTMS?
Many decks will try to run it, certainly. But this doesn‘t mean it suits them best.
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Modern: Death&Taxes / U Tron / G Tron / Goblins
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
I think Jace's Problem is more that UW(x) Decks are simply weak as is. MonoWhite has basically nothing besides Sideboard Options (unless you play Bogles or Humans) and MonoBlue needs better counters and cantrips. Jace is strong sure but he is a not a Miracle. A strong Curve Topper doesn't help when you are getting rekt from 1-3 assuming you get the mana you need to cast JTMS. Hollow One and Humans have you on the ropes by the time you cast Jace if not outright dead.
I‘ve never experienced the troubles Jitte caused and can only try to imagine what it must have been like.
One thing I‘d like to point out however @FoodChainGoblins, is that „this card is going to be in every XYZ deck“, „requires an answer immediately“, „see what it did in Legacy“ and „every deck cares about [...]“ were used when discussing the JTMS unban just recently. Modern still seems to be doing fine so far. Maybe there’s a possibility that not every deck cares about Jitte - the same way as not every blue deck runs an auto 4-of JTMS?
Many decks will try to run it, certainly. But this doesn‘t mean it suits them best.
I never said that about Jace. I felt like he would be fine and he was even less powerful than I thought. Umezawa's Jitte is colorless or more specifically, generic mana. That means any deck that will ever have 2 generic mana can play it. I don't think every deck will play it. There's at least 10 I can think of that wouldn't. The problem is that it devolves Aggro and Midrange battles into "who drew the Jitte." I know the card was played in Extended and didn't hurt much. It made Zoo a very viable contender. I think in these types of matchups, it affects the games too much.
*Obviously, yes when I'm playing Grishoalbrand, I could care less.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I‘ve never experienced the troubles Jitte caused and can only try to imagine what it must have been like.
One thing I‘d like to point out however @FoodChainGoblins, is that „this card is going to be in every XYZ deck“, „requires an answer immediately“, „see what it did in Legacy“ and „every deck cares about [...]“ were used when discussing the JTMS unban just recently. Modern still seems to be doing fine so far. Maybe there’s a possibility that not every deck cares about Jitte - the same way as not every blue deck runs an auto 4-of JTMS?
Many decks will try to run it, certainly. But this doesn‘t mean it suits them best.
While I appreciate your points, Umezawa's Jitte is not like JtMS at all. The defining difference is that Jitte is colorless and 2 CMC. Any deck with creatures, arguably the most reliable "fair" win con, can run Jitte and get value. If there's any other card on the Ban list that can be compared to Jitte, it's Deathrite Shaman. Jitte just does way, way too much for its cost, and its "limitations" are super minimal. It's basically a planeswalker that wins combat, has removal, and gains life at 2 colorless mana. Heck, if you want, you can just run Coretapper and never even rely on getting a critter through. Jitte is one of the few cards I don't think can ever reasonably be unbanned. The others are Skullclamp, Dark Depths, Dread Return, Mental Misstep, Glimpse of Nature, and Eye of Ugin. Every other card I can imagine a scenario where they're unbanned (yes, including Hypergenesis), but those 7 are at this point are fundamentally busted in Modern.
@tronix - An unban doesn't have to make the format better. If Squire was banned, it SHOULD get unbanned. Does it help the format? Not even 0.00000000000000000001%. But it should be an option for players because it doesn't fit Wizard's criteria for banning. Other cards that may get unbanned are not quite at that level obviously, but should be legal options if they don't push the format towards degeneracy.
yeah i understand the sentiment. people view the banlist in different ways, so i cant argue that one method is more correct than the other. im just saying that unbans arent risk free. we could sit here and discuss how certain cards would be fine until we are blue in the face, but no one can be 100 percent sure. jace seemed fine to unban, and in hindsight his spot on the ban list looks rather silly; however if you think there was zero chance jace could have had some unpleasant effects then you are deluding yourself. pros might have been sensationalist, but its not as if they were outright lying through their teeth when voicing their concern.
id personally prefer unbans to have a purpose that can be clearly stated. a defined hypothesis for each experiment just seems like a more rational approach to me.
if people want wotc to go down the ban list testing each plausible option for no reason other than to clean it up, then thats fine too.
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I'm pretty skeptical that that card will have a large impact given that it doesn't stop the broken draws on turn 1 or turn 2 on the play, nor does it do anything to Bloodghast/Phoenix. That and it can easily be Ancient Grudged.
Bogles stopped playing Suppression Field way before Ugin, the Spirit Dragon was printed. I personally stopped way before that because it messed with my fetchlands, of which I ran 8, to play more around Liliana of the Veil and to find Dryad Arbors easier in matchups where I need to find a creature quickly.
Playing Pyroclasm slows Tron down too, as usually they are playing a non-Tron land (although I realize that they can play Star into crack/Pyroclasm and still get natural Tron. I guess technically it slows Bogles down a bit more since the Star/Sphere interaction.
I will concede the All is Dust in Tron lists. Just because I never saw the card until someone turn 3ed me on Little Kid Abzan doesn't mean that many Tron players ran that before. But the GR Trons that I played never cast that card on me and I never saw it (maybe they hid it when I had Gaddock Teeg?). I'm truly not lying when I say the first I ever saw the card was when it got me on Little Kid. I have no reason to lie about this.
*Lastly, yes, I did not pay any attention to the deck. I usually just paid attention to decks that ended up getting banned or decks that caused me problems in my own meta (mostly decks that ended up getting banned). The first 13 matches I played against GR Tron, I won. I assumed it was an easy matchup. I didn't realize that yes, it was favored, but only slightly and I had good variance in many of those matches. The decks I paid attention to were decks that stomped Bogles like Bloom Titan, Splinter Twin, Storm, Infect, and other super quick combo decks. These were HUGE problems for the deck, outside of the very variance that you can get.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)even still there are decks and cards that are good against hollow one. it wouldnt be a good deck if it wasnt attacking from some angle that people have trouble with.
that said, the deck has been on a non stop upward trajectory since the pro tour. if it continues at this pace for much longer then it may become prudent to ask if it is crossing some line. i dont think we are there yet though.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Modern: Storm
Legacy: ANT
Its a small sample size. There currently exists 4-5 viable aggro decks including burn
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Basically, I'm questioning whether the card is as overpowered as the shadows of the past made it out to be (if anything Jace is the most recent proof that perception doesn't always equate fact). Our experiences with Umezawa's Jitte are somewhat colored by it's time during the Kamigawa block season (where it was b.u.s.t.e.d.) and old Extended, where it was good but not good enough to warrant a ban. Modern is has a much larger card pool then either of those formats so it makes sense to me that it should be able to handle it.
The other consideration is the two legend rule changes that have happened since it got banned from Modern in the first place. While the Kamigawa legend rule made it a really obnoxious card, I think the subsequent rules changes made the card that much less so. You can actually have a Jitte of your own to try and keep up with the opponents (though I admit that fighting over getting a hit in with said equipment is much more difficult that it seems but at least that is a legitimate subgame).
Finally, I would once again wish to refer to the enormous card pool Modern has right now. Besides having some of the best spot removal spells in the history of the game, a plethora of playable maindeck artifact removal, the format also has a bunch of sick decks that can kill you outright before you even get the first counters on Jitte. An active Jitte on turn 4 isn't as bad as a Grapeshot kill on turn 4, Karn on turn 3 or Thought-Knot Seer on turn 2.
Those are my thoughts on this issue. Am I missing something?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Comparing Jitte to Grapeshot or Karn is a false equivalency and if i see this comparison one more time I might go crazy. A better comparison is something like Hypergensis vs Grapeshot being two combo cards, rather than comparing an Equipment to a Combo card to a Planeswalker. All cards call for 3 decks that are trying to do 3 entirely different things.
The usual counter argument against Jitte is that it can push out aggro too much, in a format where aggro is not always that great.
I personally think it could possibly be a good unban since I think that a deck like burn needs better answers. Thing is, there will be other ramifications against other aggro decks than just burn. Such as Aggro vs Aggro, or Midrange vs Aggro could come down to whoever hits with Jitte first wins.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I mean, I realize that I am the one to say that Swords of X and Y see no Modern play because it is a death sentence to have your creature Fatal Pushed in response. Jitte is another animal. Just 1 swing and connect can change the complete texture of the game.
The more I think about it, it seems that Jitte is not quite as bad as most people think, at least for Modern. Still, I think there are at least 8 other cards to consider before it. I am on the cusp of believing that Modern some day will be strong enough to support it or won't be.
*Lastly, I don't think you can fight someone's Jitte. Why? They can remove counters to make sure your creature doesn't get there. Basically this turns into a game of "who drew Jitte first," which is a terrible game to play (yes, I know it happens in other formats).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)The play pattern in aggro vs. aggro matchups involving jitte would probably be more interesting then we give it credit for, especially now with all the new toys we have. At worst it is powerful but not in a disparaging way.
What decks actively want to have access to Umezawa's Jitte right now? I can't imagine it is a large number of them, most of them are fringe tiers so if this card bumps them up to tier 2 or 1.5 then more power to it.
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I prefer to look at it this way: how does the format improve with Jitte? The last two unbans could be justified with BBE taking the blame for DRS, while control and blue midrange is weak enough that Jace could provide a shot in the arm. Jitte doesn't fix a past error or help a lagging archetype. One trigger is enough to completely screw up a game. **** that. We don't need to bring up every single banned card.
ive been trying to get people to ask themselves this question about any of the unbans. the prevailing response seems to be that cards that dont seem too powerful should just not be on the banlist out of principle. /shrug
im not even sure jitte would be good in modern. the creature set that is played is entirely different than legacy, and decks just jamming a few copies for no reason other than that they play creatures is nonsense.
one thing is for sure though. if you want SFM in the format, then jitte is going to be staying right where it is.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I know that this is always my response when I am talking about taking something off of the Modern banned list. If a card isn't too powerful, why is it banned? If it is on the banned list because it not being there would allow a completely broken deck to be in the format, then you can't say it isn't a powerful card can you?
With concerns to cards being banned, for me there are only 3 reasons a card should be banned in Modern:
1) The card's existence in the format warps the format around whatever deck it is in. This can be seen as a card that makes a specific deck very powerful and format warping (Deathrite Shaman/Eye of Ugin), or a card that adds too much consistency too a deck, making it too large of a metagame share because it is the obvious best deck (Rite of Flame/Ponder).
2) The card is just way too damn powerful. It's a case where in a lot of instances if you aren't running this card you're either playing a specific deck it is bad in, or you're just being bad (Umezawa's Jitte/Treasure Cruise)
3) The card isn't overly powerful, but is definitely strong in Modern in a way that can restrict what WotC wants to develop and release in future sets (Stoneforge Mystic/Birthing Pod)
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
at this point i am just trying to be the voice of caution. advocating unbans is fine, but you have to admit that there is a risk that the format could just get worse. be careful what you wish for and all that.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The card just utterly dominates creature matchups in an extremely awkward way. We do not want it in modern.
It was so busted that people played Jittes just to counter jittes before the legend rule, and now it'll see play as a random 1-of in any deck looking to keep its creatures alive.
If there were a storm scale for cards getting unbanned, I would put Jitte left of Seething Song.
(The reason for that, for the record, is that Seething Song has replacement bans, much like summer Bloom. There is an argument for allowing busted enablers but killing finishers or other enablers such as Amulet or Grapeshot or PIF, etc. With jitte, once you loose it you can't do anything but reban it because its individual power level is the problem. Same with Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Which is kind of my point. With Seething Song you can watch the meta develop and then do something, even though I am sure it would be horrible. But Jitte will just be Jitte, and we know how that goes for creatures.
Stoneforge is another good example; we can unban stoneforge and if Batterskull actually presents a problem (It won't) you can ban it and let the kor live.
When thinking about unbans it's good to think about the potential consequences and whether the right card was banned in the first place. For instance, if Sword of the Meek had proven unfair there were a crapload of potential options to weaken such a deck -- banning mox Opal for example would be on the table, or Ensnaring Bridge or Thirst for Knowledge even.
And no I am not talking about banning any of those cards, just saying that if you can't think of any other card that might be the actual problem, it's a good reason for it to stay banned.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Is Damping Sphere "gutting Storm enough?"
I also feel that Seething Song is around 5 or 6 in the next cards to potentially be unbanned, but I rarely mention it because people here put it in the same category as Deathrite Shaman or Umezawa's Jitte.
@tronix - An unban doesn't have to make the format better. If Squire was banned, it SHOULD get unbanned. Does it help the format? Not even 0.00000000000000000001%. But it should be an option for players because it doesn't fit Wizard's criteria for banning. Other cards that may get unbanned are not quite at that level obviously, but should be legal options if they don't push the format towards degeneracy.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I don't know I am no Storm expert. On paper it seems like it will be effective but if it doesn't work then yeah if I was Storm Fan I be expecting for Grapeshot to get it.
One thing I‘d like to point out however @FoodChainGoblins, is that „this card is going to be in every XYZ deck“, „requires an answer immediately“, „see what it did in Legacy“ and „every deck cares about [...]“ were used when discussing the JTMS unban just recently. Modern still seems to be doing fine so far. Maybe there’s a possibility that not every deck cares about Jitte - the same way as not every blue deck runs an auto 4-of JTMS?
Many decks will try to run it, certainly. But this doesn‘t mean it suits them best.
Legacy: Death&Taxes (almost there)
EDH: Squee, Goblin Nabob / Phelddagrif
I never said that about Jace. I felt like he would be fine and he was even less powerful than I thought. Umezawa's Jitte is colorless or more specifically, generic mana. That means any deck that will ever have 2 generic mana can play it. I don't think every deck will play it. There's at least 10 I can think of that wouldn't. The problem is that it devolves Aggro and Midrange battles into "who drew the Jitte." I know the card was played in Extended and didn't hurt much. It made Zoo a very viable contender. I think in these types of matchups, it affects the games too much.
*Obviously, yes when I'm playing Grishoalbrand, I could care less.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)While I appreciate your points, Umezawa's Jitte is not like JtMS at all. The defining difference is that Jitte is colorless and 2 CMC. Any deck with creatures, arguably the most reliable "fair" win con, can run Jitte and get value. If there's any other card on the Ban list that can be compared to Jitte, it's Deathrite Shaman. Jitte just does way, way too much for its cost, and its "limitations" are super minimal. It's basically a planeswalker that wins combat, has removal, and gains life at 2 colorless mana. Heck, if you want, you can just run Coretapper and never even rely on getting a critter through. Jitte is one of the few cards I don't think can ever reasonably be unbanned. The others are Skullclamp, Dark Depths, Dread Return, Mental Misstep, Glimpse of Nature, and Eye of Ugin. Every other card I can imagine a scenario where they're unbanned (yes, including Hypergenesis), but those 7 are at this point are fundamentally busted in Modern.
yeah i understand the sentiment. people view the banlist in different ways, so i cant argue that one method is more correct than the other. im just saying that unbans arent risk free. we could sit here and discuss how certain cards would be fine until we are blue in the face, but no one can be 100 percent sure. jace seemed fine to unban, and in hindsight his spot on the ban list looks rather silly; however if you think there was zero chance jace could have had some unpleasant effects then you are deluding yourself. pros might have been sensationalist, but its not as if they were outright lying through their teeth when voicing their concern.
id personally prefer unbans to have a purpose that can be clearly stated. a defined hypothesis for each experiment just seems like a more rational approach to me.
if people want wotc to go down the ban list testing each plausible option for no reason other than to clean it up, then thats fine too.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)