yep. when I make a comment about power level, it is always in the context of Modern impact. A medium set would be something like the Core Sets, not too much that was new and meaningful, but a handful of staples. or either Kaladesh set. a strong set would be anything on Mirrodin, or RTR, or Innistrad, sets that their impact isn't even a question, they have multiple cards that even at a cursory glance reshape the format. I'm sure some Dominria cards will be played, and i really love it in terms of flavor. it's MILES better than Amonkhet or Ixalan blocks, and we still have a lot of cards to go, including the bread and butter cards that so often give us the real treats, but so far I see only a couple of new cards that will see post-rotation play outside of EDH, and certainly nothing that is going to make a new deck, which is one of my big things to determine a REALLY good set.
A previous user made a list of all the Modern cards from the previous few blocks, and it's fairly sizable and consistent between sets. I can't find the post I want to cite so hopefully another thread regular can locate it. There's a popular narrative that new sets are too weak for Modern with few playable cards, but when you actually look at how many cards feature in tiered and tournament-placing decks, there's a fairly wide representation. Every preview season sees players unhappy about how few cards are Modern playable, and every new set sees a number of new cards making an important Modern impact. I expect Dominaria will be no different.
oh sure, there are always be cards that get played. that new Stompy creature will be fun, I want to build UR Wizards, I'm sure there will be a bunch of cards that slot into tier 4 strategies and make them tier 3, but they aren't all created equal. BFZ block had more of an impact than any block I can remember, and that was just synergy, the individual cards weren't actually that good. but like, Birthing Pod as an individual card had more of an impact on Modern than the entirety of Amonkhet block. Like I said, I am a fan of this set, it has a lot of cool things, but between mana costs and payoff, there is nothing YET that screams 'build a Modern deck around me, find the right card or shell and I do incredible things'. it's the problem that I had with Ixalan block. almost every card in that block needed their specific tribe to be good or to even do anything. Dominaria, almost every card so far is legendary or requires legendaries. that would be great, but there aren't that many legendary creatures that are good enough to see Modern play, and most of the new ones aren't changing it, that's all I was saying
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A previous user made a list of all the Modern cards from the previous few blocks, and it's fairly sizable and consistent between sets. I can't find the post I want to cite so hopefully another thread regular can locate it. There's a popular narrative that new sets are too weak for Modern with few playable cards, but when you actually look at how many cards feature in tiered and tournament-placing decks, there's a fairly wide representation. Every preview season sees players unhappy about how few cards are Modern playable, and every new set sees a number of new cards making an important Modern impact. I expect Dominaria will be no different.
I can't find the post, but I can easily make the same kind of list.
These cards are grabbed from the Top 20 Modern decks listed on MTGGoldfish. Since we're just trying to make a list of "what is used in Modern" any card that was used, even as a 1-of in the 75 has been included.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
yep. when I make a comment about power level, it is always in the context of Modern impact. A medium set would be something like the Core Sets, not too much that was new and meaningful, but a handful of staples. or either Kaladesh set. a strong set would be anything on Mirrodin, or RTR, or Innistrad, sets that their impact isn't even a question, they have multiple cards that even at a cursory glance reshape the format. I'm sure some Dominria cards will be played, and i really love it in terms of flavor. it's MILES better than Amonkhet or Ixalan blocks, and we still have a lot of cards to go, including the bread and butter cards that so often give us the real treats, but so far I see only a couple of new cards that will see post-rotation play outside of EDH, and certainly nothing that is going to make a new deck, which is one of my big things to determine a REALLY good set.
A previous user made a list of all the Modern cards from the previous few blocks, and it's fairly sizable and consistent between sets. I can't find the post I want to cite so hopefully another thread regular can locate it. There's a popular narrative that new sets are too weak for Modern with few playable cards, but when you actually look at how many cards feature in tiered and tournament-placing decks, there's a fairly wide representation. Every preview season sees players unhappy about how few cards are Modern playable, and every new set sees a number of new cards making an important Modern impact. I expect Dominaria will be no different.
I've done it a few times, yet the narrative persists, I guess until people can just play their Standard decks and Top 8 a Modern event...
I just played 2 matches in a row in which my opponent put 2 Hollow Ones into play on the first turn. I realize this is variance, and I've played plenty of "more fair" matches against the deck but I don't think any deck should have the ability to create an insurmountable advantage on the first turn of the game, no matter how unlikely it is to happen. And it's not that unlikely.
I just played 2 matches in a row in which my opponent put 2 Hollow Ones into play on the first turn. I realize this is variance, and I've played plenty of "more fair" matches against the deck but I don't think any deck should have the ability to create an insurmountable advantage on the first turn of the game, no matter how unlikely it is to happen. And it's not that unlikely.
sure ill play devils advocate. what makes 8 power on turn 1, with a likely lethal swing on turn 3 or 4, different from storm getting a turn 3-4 kill? or grishoalbrand, or infect, or counters company, or affinity, or any other number of degenerate decks?
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I just played 2 matches in a row in which my opponent put 2 Hollow Ones into play on the first turn. I realize this is variance, and I've played plenty of "more fair" matches against the deck but I don't think any deck should have the ability to create an insurmountable advantage on the first turn of the game, no matter how unlikely it is to happen. And it's not that unlikely.
sure ill play devils advocate. what makes 8 power on turn 1, with a likely lethal swing on turn 3 or 4, different from storm getting a turn 3-4 kill? or grishoalbrand, or infect, or counters company, or affinity, or any other number of degenerate decks?
I just played 2 matches in a row in which my opponent put 2 Hollow Ones into play on the first turn. I realize this is variance, and I've played plenty of "more fair" matches against the deck but I don't think any deck should have the ability to create an insurmountable advantage on the first turn of the game, no matter how unlikely it is to happen. And it's not that unlikely.
Part of the problem is that you are going to remember those games way more than the ones where the deck durdles the first 2-3 turns and accomplishes basically nothing. That's how people generally behave - we place greater emphasis and attention on negatives than positives.
I just played 2 matches in a row in which my opponent put 2 Hollow Ones into play on the first turn. I realize this is variance, and I've played plenty of "more fair" matches against the deck but I don't think any deck should have the ability to create an insurmountable advantage on the first turn of the game, no matter how unlikely it is to happen. And it's not that unlikely.
sure ill play devils advocate. what makes 8 power on turn 1, with a likely lethal swing on turn 3 or 4, different from storm getting a turn 3-4 kill? or grishoalbrand, or infect, or counters company, or affinity, or any other number of degenerate decks?
Because you know you've lost the game on turn 1, not turn 3 or 4 when the other decks show you you've lost. Maybe that's the same thing from a technical standpoint, but it feels a whole lot worse. The principle of it I guess.
I just played 2 matches in a row in which my opponent put 2 Hollow Ones into play on the first turn. I realize this is variance, and I've played plenty of "more fair" matches against the deck but I don't think any deck should have the ability to create an insurmountable advantage on the first turn of the game, no matter how unlikely it is to happen. And it's not that unlikely.
sure ill play devils advocate. what makes 8 power on turn 1, with a likely lethal swing on turn 3 or 4, different from storm getting a turn 3-4 kill? or grishoalbrand, or infect, or counters company, or affinity, or any other number of degenerate decks?
Those decks are much easier to interrupt.
For storm, Killing a 2 or 3 power creature literally makes the turn 3 kill impossible. Any interaction on top of killing that creature in the form of hand disruption or countering a spell makes turn 3 or 4 kill impossible. Graveyard hate delays the kill tremendously. Many permanents outright make the deck unwinnable unless dealt with.
All interaction with Hallow One besides Path to Exile or Rest in Peace doesn't do hit it as hard as Storm or other decks. Also your turn 1-2 interaction can be discarded due to straight rng
its still a limited set of interaction mattering, and if you dont draw it you just lose. there are a bunch of hands from various decks that can fight through double hollow one, not to mention the decks that can just play past it and kill on their own.
fetch -> fatal push -> goyf
there. you just beat double turn 1 hollow one.
hollow one is just another deck in a long list of decks that people seem fine with scoring these types of wins; attributing the loss to the opponent not having the right answer or doing something broken of their own.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I don't disagree with the general sentiment, but what do you think that Fatal Push is going to kill?
ah yeah sorry brain fart. didnt think the example through lol.
edit: besides the stupid example, i was trying to get across was that some decks have more trouble dealing with early 4/4s than others - the same way decks struggle with any number of things and lose because of it.
If Storm had the same play and win percentage that Hallow One had this weekend, people would be going crazy to ban
This is true, but just like Summer Bloom, I think we should at least give it a chance and crunch some numbers. Ktkenshinx?
Even if the numbers are similar to Bloom Titan, which I'm certainly not sure they are, Bloom Titan had some things going for it. You can stabilize vs. Hollow One, depending on what you're running of course, whereas there's no way to stabilize against a string of Titans.
I do agree that if Storm had that win percentage, people would be crying "Ban." Storm is just one of those decks that will always be scrutinized moreso than others. Dredge is in here too...
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Hmm, I guess Dismember looks more attractive if Hollow One is getting popular. Fatal Push, not so much. Many people think it's a fun deck to play, so that can make it even more popular. Power level and win percentage are not the only deciding factors.
Hmm, I guess Dismember looks more attractive if Hollow One is getting popular. Fatal Push, not so much. Many people think it's a fun deck to play, so that can make it even more popular. Power level and win percentage are not the only deciding factors.
Dismember, Terminate, hell Settle the Wreckage. Here's the weird thing - I bet most people don't look at any main or side deck choices and wonder "how will this help against Hollow One?"
Hmm, I guess Dismember looks more attractive if Hollow One is getting popular. Fatal Push, not so much. Many people think it's a fun deck to play, so that can make it even more popular. Power level and win percentage are not the only deciding factors.
Dismember, Terminate, hell Settle the Wreckage. Here's the weird thing - I bet most people don't look at any main or side deck choices and wonder "how will this help against Hollow One?"
If people played as if Dredge was still a thing, Hollow One would not be an issue.
Hmm, I guess Dismember looks more attractive if Hollow One is getting popular. Fatal Push, not so much. Many people think it's a fun deck to play, so that can make it even more popular. Power level and win percentage are not the only deciding factors.
Dismember, Terminate, hell Settle the Wreckage. Here's the weird thing - I bet most people don't look at any main or side deck choices and wonder "how will this help against Hollow One?"
If people played as if Dredge was still a thing, Hollow One would not be an issue.
Agreed. It went from joke deck to solid option to broken in a few months, which is just what happens when a new idea gets tinkered by thousands of people. Yet it lacks some consistency, and is vulnerable to hate. Yeah churning out free hollow ones is a pain, but if you throw out a rest in peace turn two or a relic turn one you significantly hinder their board. Hell remember when Ravenous Trap like tripled in price because it was this awesome dredge hoser? I still have a couple in case it ever comes back but Hollow One is justifying it lol.
And who knows, maybe it ends up adapting to other people adapting to it and the deck ends up needing a ban. I just think we've seen modern be really dynamic the past year and a half, really since Gitaxian Probe left the format (I'd even argue it could come back now), and it seems like as soon as a deck spends a month or two on top people figure out how to beat it. That's Grixis Shadow, that's Eldrazi Tron, that's Storm, and even if somebody hates a deck or two, and I certainly have my gripes, it is ultimately fascinating that a non-rotating format can see so much change without a ban. Hell the three I mention there were even the case before the unbans.
Tron is not always on the play vs. Bogles against a Bogles opponent that has 1 Slippery Bogle in his hand and none others in the whole deck. Sorry, it just doesn't play out like this very often. Bogles can win before Ugin is cast, but IF Ugin is cast, there is nothing that Bogles can do. Tron could be at 1 life and then easily play out the rest of the game without drawing a single card - just using Ugin. Pyroclasm can be good against Bogles, but usually is a 1 for 1 unless the Bogles player keeps on 1 Aura, then draws 6 straight Bogles instead of more Auras.
Technically, Ugin being cast doesn't win the game; activating him does. That might seem a pointless distinction until you consider Suppression Field.
Anyway, I feel like you're making a bit of a strawman. Sure, Pyroclasm could kill a Boggle and then they'd cast another. But that simple act slows them down considerably. Tron's whole strategy against Boggles is to hope to not die before they get Tron assembled and then can start doing their usual thing to thwart the deck. Pyroclasm wasn't necessarily a blowout, but it was very rare to lose after casting it.
I have never seen a Tron list run All is Dust until just a year ago. It was mostly a meta choice and once opponents caught on, it lost at least some of its effectiveness. I never saw All is Dust in GR Tron, never. But I guess it's possible. There are players here who played against UR Twin with Simian Spirit Guide or RUG Twin with Birds of Paradise and they always lost on turn 3.
So... did you just never play against Tron or something? Because that's the only way I can fathom you not seeing it. The Tron list that made Top 8 at the GP just before Ugin was released ran 2 copies of All Is Dust, see here. The previous Tron list to make Top 8 was this, also running All is Dust.
Sure, not all of them did. The Gx Tron Top 8 before that one didn't. But the one before that one did. Searching on MTG Top 8 for Tron lists running it (searched for cards were All Is Dust, Ancient Stirrings, and an Urza land which should rule out anything other than Gx Tron) prior to Ugin's printing reveals 136 decks running it out of 465 (only searched for Ancient Stirrings and an Urza land), so that's about 30% of them running the card. It's true it means most weren't, but that's hardly fringe, so it's baffling to me you could claim you never saw it unless you were paying absolutely no attention to the deck.
Hmm, I guess Dismember looks more attractive if Hollow One is getting popular. Fatal Push, not so much. Many people think it's a fun deck to play, so that can make it even more popular. Power level and win percentage are not the only deciding factors.
Dismember, Terminate, hell Settle the Wreckage. Here's the weird thing - I bet most people don't look at any main or side deck choices and wonder "how will this help against Hollow One?"
If people played as if Dredge was still a thing, Hollow One would not be an issue.
Such an odd argument. Dredge is not still a thing, so why would people play as if it was? We're talking about the meta as it exists now. Also, how exactly would that make Hollow One not an issue? This deck is much more resilient than Dredge because while going similarly wide and fast, graveyard hate is often nothing more than a speed bump for it, and there aren't any other effective forms of hate for it either.
And to the previous posters, Dismember is an extremely mediocre answer against the fast aggro deck with recurring threats. Have you guys played against this deck?
On a historical note it's actually hilarious to me how little Gx Tron has evolved from the first decklist. Who would have thought running eggs and 4 Karn would be the gold standard for so long. I can't remember who came up with the GR Tron deck but it looked a hell of a lot like modern Gx Tron. Some inspired deckbuilding.
Well, you can say the same thing about Affinity or Jund.
(Hollow One) is much more resilient than Dredge because while going similarly wide and fast, graveyard hate is often nothing more than a speed bump for it, and there aren't any other effective forms of hate for it either.
oh sure, there are always be cards that get played. that new Stompy creature will be fun, I want to build UR Wizards, I'm sure there will be a bunch of cards that slot into tier 4 strategies and make them tier 3, but they aren't all created equal. BFZ block had more of an impact than any block I can remember, and that was just synergy, the individual cards weren't actually that good. but like, Birthing Pod as an individual card had more of an impact on Modern than the entirety of Amonkhet block. Like I said, I am a fan of this set, it has a lot of cool things, but between mana costs and payoff, there is nothing YET that screams 'build a Modern deck around me, find the right card or shell and I do incredible things'. it's the problem that I had with Ixalan block. almost every card in that block needed their specific tribe to be good or to even do anything. Dominaria, almost every card so far is legendary or requires legendaries. that would be great, but there aren't that many legendary creatures that are good enough to see Modern play, and most of the new ones aren't changing it, that's all I was saying
I can't find the post, but I can easily make the same kind of list.
Battle for Zendikar:
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Painful Truths
Crumble to Dust
Cinder Glade
Sanctum of Ugin
Oath of the Gatewatch
Endbringer
Matter Reshaper
Reality Smasher
Thought-Knot Seer
Warping Wail
Kozilek's Return
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
World Breaker
Reflector Mage
Sea Gate Wreckage
Shadows Over Innistrad
Gryff's Boon
Thalia's Lieutenant
Pieces of the Puzzle
Insolent Neonate
Duskwatch Recruiter
Tireless Tracker
Prized Amalgam
Eldritch Moon
Blessed Alliance
Collective Brutality
Liliana, the Last Hope
Spell Queller
Kaladesh
Ceremonious Rejection
Glint-Nest Crane
Cathartic Reunion
Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Kambal, COnsul of Allocation
Inspiring Vantage
Spirebluff Canal
Aether Revolt
Baral, Chief of Compliance
Fatal Push
Renegade Rallier
Walking Ballista
Spire of Industry
Amonkhet
Cartouche of Solidarity
Gideon of the Trials
Vizier of Remedies
Flameblade Adept
Hazoret the Fervent
Sweltering Suns
Rhonas the Indomitable
Hour of Devastation
Hour of Promise
Hollow One
Ixalan
Settle the Wreckage
Opt
Search for Azcanta
Kitesail Freebooter
Hostage Taker
[card}Field of Ruin[/card]
Unclaimed Territory
Rivals of Ixalan
Dire Fleet Daredevil
These cards are grabbed from the Top 20 Modern decks listed on MTGGoldfish. Since we're just trying to make a list of "what is used in Modern" any card that was used, even as a 1-of in the 75 has been included.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I've done it a few times, yet the narrative persists, I guess until people can just play their Standard decks and Top 8 a Modern event...
Spirits
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)sure ill play devils advocate. what makes 8 power on turn 1, with a likely lethal swing on turn 3 or 4, different from storm getting a turn 3-4 kill? or grishoalbrand, or infect, or counters company, or affinity, or any other number of degenerate decks?
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Answer - Nothing.
Spirits
Part of the problem is that you are going to remember those games way more than the ones where the deck durdles the first 2-3 turns and accomplishes basically nothing. That's how people generally behave - we place greater emphasis and attention on negatives than positives.
Because you know you've lost the game on turn 1, not turn 3 or 4 when the other decks show you you've lost. Maybe that's the same thing from a technical standpoint, but it feels a whole lot worse. The principle of it I guess.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Those decks are much easier to interrupt.
For storm, Killing a 2 or 3 power creature literally makes the turn 3 kill impossible. Any interaction on top of killing that creature in the form of hand disruption or countering a spell makes turn 3 or 4 kill impossible. Graveyard hate delays the kill tremendously. Many permanents outright make the deck unwinnable unless dealt with.
All interaction with Hallow One besides Path to Exile or Rest in Peace doesn't do hit it as hard as Storm or other decks. Also your turn 1-2 interaction can be discarded due to straight rng
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
fetch -> fatal push -> goyf
there. you just beat double turn 1 hollow one.
hollow one is just another deck in a long list of decks that people seem fine with scoring these types of wins; attributing the loss to the opponent not having the right answer or doing something broken of their own.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)ah yeah sorry brain fart. didnt think the example through lol.
edit: besides the stupid example, i was trying to get across was that some decks have more trouble dealing with early 4/4s than others - the same way decks struggle with any number of things and lose because of it.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
This is true, but just like Summer Bloom, I think we should at least give it a chance and crunch some numbers. Ktkenshinx?
Even if the numbers are similar to Bloom Titan, which I'm certainly not sure they are, Bloom Titan had some things going for it. You can stabilize vs. Hollow One, depending on what you're running of course, whereas there's no way to stabilize against a string of Titans.
I do agree that if Storm had that win percentage, people would be crying "Ban." Storm is just one of those decks that will always be scrutinized moreso than others. Dredge is in here too...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Dismember, Terminate, hell Settle the Wreckage. Here's the weird thing - I bet most people don't look at any main or side deck choices and wonder "how will this help against Hollow One?"
Wizardmonicon (2/1 for 2, double ETB trigegrs of Wizards) sure looks good with snapcaster and reflector mage.
The armageddon sage has potential.
If people played as if Dredge was still a thing, Hollow One would not be an issue.
Spirits
Agreed. It went from joke deck to solid option to broken in a few months, which is just what happens when a new idea gets tinkered by thousands of people. Yet it lacks some consistency, and is vulnerable to hate. Yeah churning out free hollow ones is a pain, but if you throw out a rest in peace turn two or a relic turn one you significantly hinder their board. Hell remember when Ravenous Trap like tripled in price because it was this awesome dredge hoser? I still have a couple in case it ever comes back but Hollow One is justifying it lol.
And who knows, maybe it ends up adapting to other people adapting to it and the deck ends up needing a ban. I just think we've seen modern be really dynamic the past year and a half, really since Gitaxian Probe left the format (I'd even argue it could come back now), and it seems like as soon as a deck spends a month or two on top people figure out how to beat it. That's Grixis Shadow, that's Eldrazi Tron, that's Storm, and even if somebody hates a deck or two, and I certainly have my gripes, it is ultimately fascinating that a non-rotating format can see so much change without a ban. Hell the three I mention there were even the case before the unbans.
Anyway, I feel like you're making a bit of a strawman. Sure, Pyroclasm could kill a Boggle and then they'd cast another. But that simple act slows them down considerably. Tron's whole strategy against Boggles is to hope to not die before they get Tron assembled and then can start doing their usual thing to thwart the deck. Pyroclasm wasn't necessarily a blowout, but it was very rare to lose after casting it.
So... did you just never play against Tron or something? Because that's the only way I can fathom you not seeing it. The Tron list that made Top 8 at the GP just before Ugin was released ran 2 copies of All Is Dust, see here. The previous Tron list to make Top 8 was this, also running All is Dust.
Sure, not all of them did. The Gx Tron Top 8 before that one didn't. But the one before that one did. Searching on MTG Top 8 for Tron lists running it (searched for cards were All Is Dust, Ancient Stirrings, and an Urza land which should rule out anything other than Gx Tron) prior to Ugin's printing reveals 136 decks running it out of 465 (only searched for Ancient Stirrings and an Urza land), so that's about 30% of them running the card. It's true it means most weren't, but that's hardly fringe, so it's baffling to me you could claim you never saw it unless you were paying absolutely no attention to the deck.
Such an odd argument. Dredge is not still a thing, so why would people play as if it was? We're talking about the meta as it exists now. Also, how exactly would that make Hollow One not an issue? This deck is much more resilient than Dredge because while going similarly wide and fast, graveyard hate is often nothing more than a speed bump for it, and there aren't any other effective forms of hate for it either.
And to the previous posters, Dismember is an extremely mediocre answer against the fast aggro deck with recurring threats. Have you guys played against this deck?