We can probably bet against FoW ever existing in Standard, so what's the Modern-playable, Standard-appropriate replacement? Maybe a FoW that is only free if it's the first N turns of the game? A FoW that only counters permanents? There needs to be some kind of restriction that matters in Standard but is more negligible in Modern.
One of the things that is important for FoW is the trade you are making for the free spell. For FoW it is 1 life and a blue card, which has been proven to be relatively insignificant.
For Pact of Negation (the closest we have to a FoW), is a delayed cost of the spell.
For Disrupting Soil, the card had to be the exact same cost, which has proven to be really hard in a format as diverse as modern.
I think, if we are ever to get a free counterspell again, we should be looking at what would be a meaningful drawback first, and then what it can counter. We know for example that life points are not a significant enough drawback. So if they wanted to use life points, they would need an extra requirement. Limitations on what you can discard has already been used twice. Delayed cost has been used. We also saw that they weren't willing to do the "your lands don't untap" drawback for a free/cheap coutnerspell.
I might be a bit "pessimistic", but I don't think there is any chance we are getting a free counterspell in standard ever again.
It really isn't insignificant. That's -1 card advantage, and it must be a blue card, which means there's some deck building constraints. FoW is only really good in tempo decks or against combo decks. Because Modern doesn't have to defend against turn 1 or 2 kills, FoW becomes worse. In midrange matchups, for example, FoW would probably be boarded out. Imagine mulliganing to 6 on the play, and being forced to use FoW, then getting Thoughtsiezed the next turn. I think that FoW or a card like it, is not the card Blue Control needs or wants
Force of Will would take blue from being a "bad" color to the best. The entire format would be flipped completely on its head. At that point we are no longer talking about modern, but rather turning modern into legacy. I'd rather see counterspell and/or daze, if anything. Daze in particular I think would become more fair given the presence of shocklands.
Then again, the format is incredibly healthy, and this entire conversation is based around the prevalence or lack thereof of a single archetype.
what is your reasoning that lead you to the conclusion that blue would become dominant?
FoW is bad in fair matchups because it is card disadvantage, requires a deckbuilding cost of having a sufficient number of blue cards, has the opportunity cost of taking slots that would otherwise be used by other spells, and requires a lot of mana if you ever want to use it normally.
this means its primary purpose would be confined to combating the exceptionally explosive draws that other decks can present. why is it that other decks are allowed to have this sort of advantage, but when blue control players can defend themselves its suddenly unfair?
control decks as a function of how they operate can never present a type of draw that rolls over the opponent in the first few turns. so the way i see things FoW is just leveling the playing field.
is a hollow one deck dropping 8 power on turn 1, or an infect player with a turn 2 kill that can play over the top of a removal spell somehow more deserving of the win? then a blue control player stopping them, which mind you doesnt even mean they win, is somehow crossing some line?
i realize that this conversation doesnt mean much because the likelihood of FoW entering the format is basically zero. rather i just want to illustrate the systemic issue that plagues control decks in modern. there is just no way to configure your deck with the tools available to play against all of the insane things other decks are bringing to the table.
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I think one possible design for a FoW alternate would be some kind of trap card. I prefer to avoid suggesting any design as that always degenerate and derail the thread. Even though finding the correct trigger is obviously very hard.
We can probably bet against FoW ever existing in Standard, so what's the Modern-playable, Standard-appropriate replacement? Maybe a FoW that is only free if it's the first N turns of the game? A FoW that only counters permanents? There needs to be some kind of restriction that matters in Standard but is more negligible in Modern.
One of the things that is important for FoW is the trade you are making for the free spell. For FoW it is 1 life and a blue card, which has been proven to be relatively insignificant.
For Pact of Negation (the closest we have to a FoW), is a delayed cost of the spell.
For Disrupting Soil, the card had to be the exact same cost, which has proven to be really hard in a format as diverse as modern.
I think, if we are ever to get a free counterspell again, we should be looking at what would be a meaningful drawback first, and then what it can counter. We know for example that life points are not a significant enough drawback. So if they wanted to use life points, they would need an extra requirement. Limitations on what you can discard has already been used twice. Delayed cost has been used. We also saw that they weren't willing to do the "your lands don't untap" drawback for a free/cheap coutnerspell.
I might be a bit "pessimistic", but I don't think there is any chance we are getting a free counterspell in standard ever again.
It really isn't insignificant. That's -1 card advantage, and it must be a blue card, which means there's some deck building constraints. FoW is only really good in tempo decks or against combo decks. Because Modern doesn't have to defend against turn 1 or 2 kills, FoW becomes worse. In midrange matchups, for example, FoW would probably be boarded out. Imagine mulliganing to 6 on the play, and being forced to use FoW, then getting Thoughtsiezed the next turn. I think that FoW or a card like it, is not the card Blue Control needs or wants
I am not saying it is completely insignificant, I am saying that in legacy it has proven to be relatively insignificant. There are constraints, obviously, but constraints that have been easy to overcome.
It is also not the case that FoW is really good in tempo decks or against combo decks. Legacy Miracles is not a tempo deck but it constantly runs 3-4 FoWs. You also often see FoW in variants of 4 color control decks or grixis control decks. Combo decks like Sneak and Show or Omnitell also run 4x FoWs. FoW is not only good against combo but it is also great in combo decks.
Can you imagine modern storm, a U based deck, having access to FoW? All of a sudden you can't stop it mid-combo with Surgicals. You also can't counter the start of the combo if they tap out. They have free protection for their Baral/Electromancer.
Of course there are cases where FoW is bad. This is the case with literally EVERY card. But the power FoW brings on the table is so overwhelming that just sometimes it being bad is not enough. I am a dedicated control player, if I had access to FoW, I would mainboard that thing without even blinking.
We can probably bet against FoW ever existing in Standard, so what's the Modern-playable, Standard-appropriate replacement? Maybe a FoW that is only free if it's the first N turns of the game? A FoW that only counters permanents? There needs to be some kind of restriction that matters in Standard but is more negligible in Modern.
One of the things that is important for FoW is the trade you are making for the free spell. For FoW it is 1 life and a blue card, which has been proven to be relatively insignificant.
For Pact of Negation (the closest we have to a FoW), is a delayed cost of the spell.
For Disrupting Soil, the card had to be the exact same cost, which has proven to be really hard in a format as diverse as modern.
I think, if we are ever to get a free counterspell again, we should be looking at what would be a meaningful drawback first, and then what it can counter. We know for example that life points are not a significant enough drawback. So if they wanted to use life points, they would need an extra requirement. Limitations on what you can discard has already been used twice. Delayed cost has been used. We also saw that they weren't willing to do the "your lands don't untap" drawback for a free/cheap coutnerspell.
I might be a bit "pessimistic", but I don't think there is any chance we are getting a free counterspell in standard ever again.
It really isn't insignificant. That's -1 card advantage, and it must be a blue card, which means there's some deck building constraints. FoW is only really good in tempo decks or against combo decks. Because Modern doesn't have to defend against turn 1 or 2 kills, FoW becomes worse. In midrange matchups, for example, FoW would probably be boarded out. Imagine mulliganing to 6 on the play, and being forced to use FoW, then getting Thoughtsiezed the next turn. I think that FoW or a card like it, is not the card Blue Control needs or wants
I am not saying it is completely insignificant, I am saying that in legacy it has proven to be relatively insignificant. There are constraints, obviously, but constraints that have been easy to overcome.
It is also not the case that FoW is really good in tempo decks or against combo decks. Legacy Miracles is not a tempo deck but it constantly runs 3-4 FoWs. You also often see FoW in variants of 4 color control decks or grixis control decks. Combo decks like Sneak and Show or Omnitell also run 4x FoWs. FoW is not only good against combo but it is also great in combo decks.
Can you imagine modern storm, a U based deck, having access to FoW? All of a sudden you can't stop it mid-combo with Surgicals. You also can't counter the start of the combo if they tap out. They have free protection for their Baral/Electromancer.
Of course there are cases where FoW is bad. This is the case with literally EVERY card. But the power FoW brings on the table is so overwhelming that just sometimes it being bad is not enough. I am a dedicated control player, if I had access to FoW, I would mainboard that thing without even blinking.
Its not that the drawback is insignificant, its that the pros outweigh the cons in Legacy. But, like you said, and I believe too, that FoW will probably buff non-Blue based control more than it would help them like in your example with FoW protecting a combo deck.
My comment about it being really good in tempo decks is that I believe that is where FoW shines the most pretty much by itself. In the other decks like 4 color control decks or Grixis control decks, Legacy has much better ways in generating card advantage like with Predict or Hymn to Tourach that Modern simply doesnt have that incentives these decks to play 3-4 FoWs on top of the necessity to protect against the super fast combo decks of Legacy. That's why FoW is really not the card Blue based decks want, and why it wouldn't make them super dominate if it was legal in Modern
Can you imagine modern storm, a U based deck, having access to FoW? All of a sudden you can't stop it mid-combo with Surgicals. You also can't counter the start of the combo if they tap out. They have free protection for their Baral/Electromancer.
So, they would have two fewer cards to go off? (-1 for FoW, -1 for the card pitched to it. And that only works if that card is blue.) I'm pretty sure storm could not start comboíng off on its usual turn in these conditions. It's not a clear win for the deck. (Otherwise they'd already run the superior (in context) pact of negation main as a 3-of.)
yeah combo decks that require spell density wouldnt want to run FoW. its the combos that are combining A + B where the extra protection helps (ie sneak and show).
at this point people should be realizing that there is no good solution. the moment you give control decks the means to reasonably fight against everything going on in the format it jumps ahead as the best thing to be doing. be it cheaper or free counterspells, or better consistency and digging tools like ponder.
this leaves the only option to make up the gap in power as incorporating degenerate elements of your own.
one thing i find interesting is sort of the evolution of control decks.
some people occasionally bring up the idea that the format is too diverse, and that it is a problem. tbh im not entirely sure if that is true or not, or whether it is good or bad. however you can observe the side effects.
when there are so many strategies that attack from different angles, and the format is chaotic, there is one thing that is always a constant. mana. everybody needs mana.
so instead of trying to fight the strategies you attack the resource system. look at the two better performing control shells - UW and UR. one is using spreading seas and field of ruin, the other is using blood moon.
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one thing i find interesting is sort of the evolution of control decks.
some people occasionally bring up the idea that the format is too diverse, and that it is a problem. tbh im not entirely sure if that is true or not, or whether it is good or bad. however you can observe the side effects.
when there are so many strategies that attack from different angles, and the format is chaotic, there is one thing that is always a constant. mana. everybody needs mana.
so instead of trying to fight the strategies you attack the resource system. look at the two better performing control shells - UW and UR. one is using spreading seas and field of ruin, the other is using blood moon.
Also, honestly I find it hard to believe that with 4-5 weeks with JTMS people are willing to say it's just "not that good," as if optimized decks have already been made. Hell it took Death's Shadow like four years for people to figure out.
Because thats the only way to the 'free wins' we discussed over the last few pages. Choke them out, dont let them cast on curve, and hopefully land a beater. Its more of a tempo deck honestly at that point...
Also, honestly I find it hard to believe that with 4-5 weeks with JTMS people are willing to say it's just "not that good," as if optimized decks have already been made. Hell it took Death's Shadow like four years for people to figure out.
yeah there is still some space left to be explored, but it wouldnt be surprising in the least if nobody finds anything. jace is a known quantity. death shadow on the other hand was a huge unknown, growing from some cute tech in a beatdown zoo list to a creature combat combo and finally just a good standalone threat that doesnt take much to enable.
its not like you gotta jump through hoops to get jace to work, you just sorta stick the card wherever and it does the same thing.
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The problem, is one of deck space, and assembling whatever means you can to lock the opponent.
I have to assume there is a reason Counter Top was a thing, and it was more than the Miracles. Lets pretend you have Jace, against an open field, nothing in play, and you can fate seal. Well do you have answers in hand? If not, it means literally nothing. You see they would draw gas, and you put it to the bottom, they STILL may draw gas.
So you have to brainstorm, and hope you draw an answer. 'Hope' is not exactly how you want things to go.
Jace is not going to be broken without new cards to enable it to be so, because what he does, can be answered simply due to the explosiveness of the format.
This is why we saw Delver die. This is why we saw Grixis, in the hands of even 'career' Grixis players, stumble, and lose. I remember the commentators laughing at Corey one Open/GP. "Well he's put Visions on Suspend, he's going to die inside 4 turns" and it happened, several times, even on camera. I think it had to go to one of the last rounds, before he actually was on camera and putting Visions on suspend did not result in his death.
Jace is the same. He cannot be broken, because what he does is fundamentally not broken.
You see one card, and hope its a land to feed them nothing.
You net 1 card, and hope to have a way to shuffle away what you dont want.
You unsummon a creature, and hope to stall one more turn.
well it isnt too difficult to find shuffle effects.
i think people incorrectly look at jace as some amazing card advantage engine. when in reality he is more of a consistency engine. 1 card a turn is nothing to scoff at, but continuous brainstorming with shuffle effects lets you see so many cards and choose between them. so its quality over quantity.
its funny because if you look at the legacy miracles deck pre-banning, which i think is safe to say is the most dominant control deck in the history of the game, there are almost no sources of raw card advantage; which is one of the things most often attributed to a good control deck.
it was all consistency. predict wasnt really being played, and some people played stoneforge and others didnt. it was all top, brainstorm, and ponder; with the only real ways to pull ahead in cards was counterbalance countering multiple things and jace being active for multiple turns.
you dont need a grip full of cards when you always have the 1 that is best.
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well it isnt too difficult to find shuffle effects.
i think people incorrectly look at jace as some amazing card advantage engine. when in reality he is more of a consistency engine. 1 card a turn is nothing to scoff at, but continuous brainstorming with shuffle effects lets you see so many cards and choose between them. so its quality over quantity.
its funny because if you look at the legacy miracles deck pre-banning, which i think is safe to say is the most dominant control deck in the history of the game, there are almost no sources of raw card advantage; which is one of the things most often attributed to a good control deck.
it was all consistency. predict wasnt really being played, and some people played stoneforge and others didnt. it was all top, brainstorm, and ponder; with the only real ways to pull ahead in cards was counterbalance countering multiple things and jace being active for multiple turns.
you dont need a grip full of cards when you always have the 1 that is best.
Well it did have Jace, and that is card advantage. But it also had Counterbalance and Top, which is pretty much a universal answer to anything, something that Modern doesn't have thats good. When you have something as Powerful as Counterbalance + Top, you don't need an insane card advantage engine. However, Counterbalance + Top is pretty much an insane card advantage engine lol
Whatever arguments there may be for Force in Modern, it getting into Standard first borders on impossible. MaRo is on the record somewhere in Blogatog specifically stating the scenario that tapping out for your Planeswalker and still being able to protect it through Force is too much for Standard. This means that at minimum any new variant of it would have to be unable to counter spells targeting permanents you control - would people still want and play that?
Speaking of drawbacks, how far would people be willing to go? 3 life is already cited as too much when referring to Anguished Unmaking
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Which is what I was saying. Jace is/was (I dont follow it) better in Legacy because there are more degenerate (Yes Counter/Top is degenerate) things going on that the card enabled.
It would be like if we added Jace to Twin. 'OMG JACE IS SO BROKEN'.
No, Twin is. Just like Counter Top was. Thats what it takes to 'break Jace'. A deck that would already be good to great, that you can just slot him into.
Anguished Unmaking I wouldnt say is a good example of when life is too much to play. That card is basically a worse Malestorm Pulse in different colors. Also, countering something is much different than removal. Also, being free vs still paying mana is not a great comparison
i think people incorrectly look at jace as some amazing card advantage engine. when in reality he is more of a consistency engine. 1 card a turn is nothing to scoff at, but continuous brainstorming with shuffle effects lets you see so many cards and choose between them. so its quality over quantity.
its funny because if you look at the legacy miracles deck pre-banning, which i think is safe to say is the most dominant control deck in the history of the game, there are almost no sources of raw card advantage; which is one of the things most often attributed to a good control deck.
it was all consistency. predict wasnt really being played, and some people played stoneforge and others didnt. it was all top, brainstorm, and ponder; with the only real ways to pull ahead in cards was counterbalance countering multiple things and jace being active for multiple turns.
Before the banning, Predict was being played, mostly to have another angle of attack against the BUG/4C decks fighting with Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay. Though your general point is mostly correct -- card selection was more important than card quality. But this is partly because the individual cards you could find did provide card advantage -- most notably, Terminus, Counterbalance, Entreat the Angels, and Monastery Mentor.
Which is what I was saying. Jace is/was (I dont follow it) better in Legacy because there are more degenerate (Yes Counter/Top is degenerate) things going on that the card enabled.
I would say that Jace is better in Legacy than Modern because: (1) Control decks playing Jace have access to Force of Will which lets them deal with new threats being played to the board without taking down the shields to protect a resolved Jace; (2) Legacy's premier aggressive deck (Delver) plays fewer threats at a time than Modern's aggressive decks, which (once again) make it easier to protect a resolved Jace; (3) Legacy decks often have more 'critical'/'payoff' cards (Infernal Tutor, Deathrite Shaman, True-Name Nemesis, Punishing Fire, etc.), which makes Jace's +2 more powerful than in Modern, where decks are more often composed of redundant threats; and (4) Legacy's metagame is much more settled, which means that it's easier to build a deck (+ sideboard) where resolving and protecting Jace is a feasible -- and winning -- gameplan.
The general principles still apply, I think. Which means that if Jace is going to find a home in Modern, it needs to be in a shell that can effectively protect him with spot removal and sweepers -- and the metagame needs to be right for such a deck to exist.
I think it's similar to Nahiri in Jeskai. When the metagame was right, Nahiri was very powerful -- she could protect herself, provided card selection/advantage, and could win the game (quite quickly). But when the metagame shifted, the deck lost its footing, and ultimately had to ditch Nahiri to find success again. Jace is an improvement in that he doesn't require a dead draw (Emrakul) to be able to win the game, and can be played as 1- or 2-of, but a successful Jace deck still needs to have the right place in the meta for Jace to be good in the first place.
Historically, reactive control decks have a hard time dealing with very wide-open metagames. Jeskai Queller Tempo was successful in part due to its proactivity -- it didn't need to have a fully settled metagame because Queller and Geist are such proactive cards. But if you want to play defense for 75% of the game and then win after resolving Jace and/or getting to turn 15, then it helps to be able to know what you're going to be facing, and build your deck with that meta in mind. Right now, the Modern meta is so varied that it's difficult to do this effectively. How does one combat Jund, Humans, Colorless Eldrazi, Tron, Ponza, and Burn with a reactive control deck? It's pretty difficult.
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yep @AnteaterTamer. i pretty much agree with all of your points. it important to highlight the differences in formats. in legacy a couple swords to plowshares and a few terminus were enough to keep creature decks at bay, while in modern control decks are running upwards of 10 spot removal spells on top of a few sweepers. add on top of this various removal spells not being good against certain creatures or decks and the countermagic having all these conditionals and there are a lot of weaknesses to exploit.
Historically, reactive control decks have a hard time dealing with very wide-open metagames. Jeskai Queller Tempo was successful in part due to its proactivity -- it didn't need to have a fully settled metagame because Queller and Geist are such proactive cards. But if you want to play defense for 75% of the game and then win after resolving Jace and/or getting to turn 15, then it helps to be able to know what you're going to be facing, and build your deck with that meta in mind. Right now, the Modern meta is so varied that it's difficult to do this effectively. How does one combat Jund, Humans, Colorless Eldrazi, Tron, Ponza, and Burn with a reactive control deck? It's pretty difficult.
mana denial/disruption, and powerful plays that can win on the spot. which is pretty much what we see going on at the moment.
in think vanilla control will find its stride once things settle down, but its an important reminder that jace didnt really fix a whole lot. frankly i dont think there is anything that can fix the type of issues we are talking about. any power upgrades in the permission spell or consistency/digging department would just immediately be snatched up by other decks - leaving us in the same position if not worse.
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yep @AnteaterTamer. i pretty much agree with all of your points. it important to highlight the differences in formats. in legacy a couple swords to plowshares and a few terminus were enough to keep creature decks at bay, while in modern control decks are running upwards of 10 spot removal spells on top of a few sweepers. add on top of this various removal spells not being good against certain creatures or decks and the countermagic having all these conditionals and there are a lot of weaknesses to exploit.
Historically, reactive control decks have a hard time dealing with very wide-open metagames. Jeskai Queller Tempo was successful in part due to its proactivity -- it didn't need to have a fully settled metagame because Queller and Geist are such proactive cards. But if you want to play defense for 75% of the game and then win after resolving Jace and/or getting to turn 15, then it helps to be able to know what you're going to be facing, and build your deck with that meta in mind. Right now, the Modern meta is so varied that it's difficult to do this effectively. How does one combat Jund, Humans, Colorless Eldrazi, Tron, Ponza, and Burn with a reactive control deck? It's pretty difficult.
mana denial/disruption, and powerful plays that can win on the spot. which is pretty much what we see going on at the moment.
I actually meant for reactive control decks, but yes, I think that's right.
Edit: Maybe you meant that as well, actually (Spreading Seas, etc.).
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In which state are now grixis Death's Shadow? It's just me or this deck is not so popular right now?
I started buying cards for GDS 2 months ago. And now have almost everything unless 4x Snapcaster Mage and few lands.
I still think it's very good, but otherwise I've been playing a lot of Combo decks, so the consistency is nice to have from time to time. It's nice to make opponents discard their best cards and see if they can recover. I will admit that certain matchups are VERY tough to master. Right now, I cannot for the life of me find out how to beat Humans. I am about to give up, but I feel like I'm nearly there. It's just SO many different cards they can top deck to get there - Reflector Mage, Mantis Rider, Thalia's Lieutenant, blah blah blah.
On another point, Humans, that's a damn good deck and even though I thought so for the longest time, I actually think it may be in a Tier by itself (if ever so slightly). Tons of 50/50 matchups across the board.
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Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
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yeah humans is an amazing deck. easily the best disruptive aggro deck to show up in a long time. its like something just clicked when it adopted phantasmal image + aether vial tech.
humans are probably the deepest tribe in the game, in terms of card effects. a deck that can see the opponents hand AND run 4 main deck meddling mages?
ill admit that im slightly bitter that it basically gets to freeroll so many rainbow lands. its like cmon...at least make them have to make SOME choices. any human in any color from current sets to future ones - they can just swap it in without a second thought.
cavern of souls just continues to get better and better as time goes on.
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its funny because if you look at the legacy miracles deck pre-banning, which i think is safe to say is the most dominant control deck in the history of the game,
Psychatog.
Or ThopterDepths, if you count it as control.
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It really isn't insignificant. That's -1 card advantage, and it must be a blue card, which means there's some deck building constraints. FoW is only really good in tempo decks or against combo decks. Because Modern doesn't have to defend against turn 1 or 2 kills, FoW becomes worse. In midrange matchups, for example, FoW would probably be boarded out. Imagine mulliganing to 6 on the play, and being forced to use FoW, then getting Thoughtsiezed the next turn. I think that FoW or a card like it, is not the card Blue Control needs or wants
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what is your reasoning that lead you to the conclusion that blue would become dominant?
FoW is bad in fair matchups because it is card disadvantage, requires a deckbuilding cost of having a sufficient number of blue cards, has the opportunity cost of taking slots that would otherwise be used by other spells, and requires a lot of mana if you ever want to use it normally.
this means its primary purpose would be confined to combating the exceptionally explosive draws that other decks can present. why is it that other decks are allowed to have this sort of advantage, but when blue control players can defend themselves its suddenly unfair?
control decks as a function of how they operate can never present a type of draw that rolls over the opponent in the first few turns. so the way i see things FoW is just leveling the playing field.
is a hollow one deck dropping 8 power on turn 1, or an infect player with a turn 2 kill that can play over the top of a removal spell somehow more deserving of the win? then a blue control player stopping them, which mind you doesnt even mean they win, is somehow crossing some line?
i realize that this conversation doesnt mean much because the likelihood of FoW entering the format is basically zero. rather i just want to illustrate the systemic issue that plagues control decks in modern. there is just no way to configure your deck with the tools available to play against all of the insane things other decks are bringing to the table.
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GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)It is also not the case that FoW is really good in tempo decks or against combo decks. Legacy Miracles is not a tempo deck but it constantly runs 3-4 FoWs. You also often see FoW in variants of 4 color control decks or grixis control decks. Combo decks like Sneak and Show or Omnitell also run 4x FoWs. FoW is not only good against combo but it is also great in combo decks.
Can you imagine modern storm, a U based deck, having access to FoW? All of a sudden you can't stop it mid-combo with Surgicals. You also can't counter the start of the combo if they tap out. They have free protection for their Baral/Electromancer.
Of course there are cases where FoW is bad. This is the case with literally EVERY card. But the power FoW brings on the table is so overwhelming that just sometimes it being bad is not enough. I am a dedicated control player, if I had access to FoW, I would mainboard that thing without even blinking.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Its not that the drawback is insignificant, its that the pros outweigh the cons in Legacy. But, like you said, and I believe too, that FoW will probably buff non-Blue based control more than it would help them like in your example with FoW protecting a combo deck.
My comment about it being really good in tempo decks is that I believe that is where FoW shines the most pretty much by itself. In the other decks like 4 color control decks or Grixis control decks, Legacy has much better ways in generating card advantage like with Predict or Hymn to Tourach that Modern simply doesnt have that incentives these decks to play 3-4 FoWs on top of the necessity to protect against the super fast combo decks of Legacy. That's why FoW is really not the card Blue based decks want, and why it wouldn't make them super dominate if it was legal in Modern
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
So, they would have two fewer cards to go off? (-1 for FoW, -1 for the card pitched to it. And that only works if that card is blue.) I'm pretty sure storm could not start comboíng off on its usual turn in these conditions. It's not a clear win for the deck. (Otherwise they'd already run the superior (in context) pact of negation main as a 3-of.)
at this point people should be realizing that there is no good solution. the moment you give control decks the means to reasonably fight against everything going on in the format it jumps ahead as the best thing to be doing. be it cheaper or free counterspells, or better consistency and digging tools like ponder.
this leaves the only option to make up the gap in power as incorporating degenerate elements of your own.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Bingo.
Spirits
some people occasionally bring up the idea that the format is too diverse, and that it is a problem. tbh im not entirely sure if that is true or not, or whether it is good or bad. however you can observe the side effects.
when there are so many strategies that attack from different angles, and the format is chaotic, there is one thing that is always a constant. mana. everybody needs mana.
so instead of trying to fight the strategies you attack the resource system. look at the two better performing control shells - UW and UR. one is using spreading seas and field of ruin, the other is using blood moon.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Also, honestly I find it hard to believe that with 4-5 weeks with JTMS people are willing to say it's just "not that good," as if optimized decks have already been made. Hell it took Death's Shadow like four years for people to figure out.
Spirits
yeah there is still some space left to be explored, but it wouldnt be surprising in the least if nobody finds anything. jace is a known quantity. death shadow on the other hand was a huge unknown, growing from some cute tech in a beatdown zoo list to a creature combat combo and finally just a good standalone threat that doesnt take much to enable.
its not like you gotta jump through hoops to get jace to work, you just sorta stick the card wherever and it does the same thing.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I have to assume there is a reason Counter Top was a thing, and it was more than the Miracles. Lets pretend you have Jace, against an open field, nothing in play, and you can fate seal. Well do you have answers in hand? If not, it means literally nothing. You see they would draw gas, and you put it to the bottom, they STILL may draw gas.
So you have to brainstorm, and hope you draw an answer. 'Hope' is not exactly how you want things to go.
Jace is not going to be broken without new cards to enable it to be so, because what he does, can be answered simply due to the explosiveness of the format.
This is why we saw Delver die. This is why we saw Grixis, in the hands of even 'career' Grixis players, stumble, and lose. I remember the commentators laughing at Corey one Open/GP. "Well he's put Visions on Suspend, he's going to die inside 4 turns" and it happened, several times, even on camera. I think it had to go to one of the last rounds, before he actually was on camera and putting Visions on suspend did not result in his death.
Jace is the same. He cannot be broken, because what he does is fundamentally not broken.
You see one card, and hope its a land to feed them nothing.
You net 1 card, and hope to have a way to shuffle away what you dont want.
You unsummon a creature, and hope to stall one more turn.
Very impressive.
Spirits
Spirits
i think people incorrectly look at jace as some amazing card advantage engine. when in reality he is more of a consistency engine. 1 card a turn is nothing to scoff at, but continuous brainstorming with shuffle effects lets you see so many cards and choose between them. so its quality over quantity.
its funny because if you look at the legacy miracles deck pre-banning, which i think is safe to say is the most dominant control deck in the history of the game, there are almost no sources of raw card advantage; which is one of the things most often attributed to a good control deck.
it was all consistency. predict wasnt really being played, and some people played stoneforge and others didnt. it was all top, brainstorm, and ponder; with the only real ways to pull ahead in cards was counterbalance countering multiple things and jace being active for multiple turns.
you dont need a grip full of cards when you always have the 1 that is best.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Well it did have Jace, and that is card advantage. But it also had Counterbalance and Top, which is pretty much a universal answer to anything, something that Modern doesn't have thats good. When you have something as Powerful as Counterbalance + Top, you don't need an insane card advantage engine. However, Counterbalance + Top is pretty much an insane card advantage engine lol
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Speaking of drawbacks, how far would people be willing to go? 3 life is already cited as too much when referring to Anguished Unmaking
Modern - Cheeri0s (building), Belcher (building), Lantern (building), UW Control (building)
RIP Magic Duels. Wizards will regret what they did to you.
It would be like if we added Jace to Twin. 'OMG JACE IS SO BROKEN'.
No, Twin is. Just like Counter Top was. Thats what it takes to 'break Jace'. A deck that would already be good to great, that you can just slot him into.
Spirits
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Before the banning, Predict was being played, mostly to have another angle of attack against the BUG/4C decks fighting with Hymn to Tourach and Abrupt Decay. Though your general point is mostly correct -- card selection was more important than card quality. But this is partly because the individual cards you could find did provide card advantage -- most notably, Terminus, Counterbalance, Entreat the Angels, and Monastery Mentor.
I would say that Jace is better in Legacy than Modern because: (1) Control decks playing Jace have access to Force of Will which lets them deal with new threats being played to the board without taking down the shields to protect a resolved Jace; (2) Legacy's premier aggressive deck (Delver) plays fewer threats at a time than Modern's aggressive decks, which (once again) make it easier to protect a resolved Jace; (3) Legacy decks often have more 'critical'/'payoff' cards (Infernal Tutor, Deathrite Shaman, True-Name Nemesis, Punishing Fire, etc.), which makes Jace's +2 more powerful than in Modern, where decks are more often composed of redundant threats; and (4) Legacy's metagame is much more settled, which means that it's easier to build a deck (+ sideboard) where resolving and protecting Jace is a feasible -- and winning -- gameplan.
The general principles still apply, I think. Which means that if Jace is going to find a home in Modern, it needs to be in a shell that can effectively protect him with spot removal and sweepers -- and the metagame needs to be right for such a deck to exist.
I think it's similar to Nahiri in Jeskai. When the metagame was right, Nahiri was very powerful -- she could protect herself, provided card selection/advantage, and could win the game (quite quickly). But when the metagame shifted, the deck lost its footing, and ultimately had to ditch Nahiri to find success again. Jace is an improvement in that he doesn't require a dead draw (Emrakul) to be able to win the game, and can be played as 1- or 2-of, but a successful Jace deck still needs to have the right place in the meta for Jace to be good in the first place.
Historically, reactive control decks have a hard time dealing with very wide-open metagames. Jeskai Queller Tempo was successful in part due to its proactivity -- it didn't need to have a fully settled metagame because Queller and Geist are such proactive cards. But if you want to play defense for 75% of the game and then win after resolving Jace and/or getting to turn 15, then it helps to be able to know what you're going to be facing, and build your deck with that meta in mind. Right now, the Modern meta is so varied that it's difficult to do this effectively. How does one combat Jund, Humans, Colorless Eldrazi, Tron, Ponza, and Burn with a reactive control deck? It's pretty difficult.
Commander: UBR Jeleva/Kess Storm, UR Mizzix Combo, U Rayne/Azami Wizards
An appallingly dull fellow, unimaginative, timid, lacking in initiative, spineless, easily dominated, no sense of humour, tedious company, and irrepressibly drab and awful.
mana denial/disruption, and powerful plays that can win on the spot. which is pretty much what we see going on at the moment.
in think vanilla control will find its stride once things settle down, but its an important reminder that jace didnt really fix a whole lot. frankly i dont think there is anything that can fix the type of issues we are talking about. any power upgrades in the permission spell or consistency/digging department would just immediately be snatched up by other decks - leaving us in the same position if not worse.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I actually meant for reactive control decks, but yes, I think that's right.
Edit: Maybe you meant that as well, actually (Spreading Seas, etc.).
Commander: UBR Jeleva/Kess Storm, UR Mizzix Combo, U Rayne/Azami Wizards
An appallingly dull fellow, unimaginative, timid, lacking in initiative, spineless, easily dominated, no sense of humour, tedious company, and irrepressibly drab and awful.
I still think it's very good, but otherwise I've been playing a lot of Combo decks, so the consistency is nice to have from time to time. It's nice to make opponents discard their best cards and see if they can recover. I will admit that certain matchups are VERY tough to master. Right now, I cannot for the life of me find out how to beat Humans. I am about to give up, but I feel like I'm nearly there. It's just SO many different cards they can top deck to get there - Reflector Mage, Mantis Rider, Thalia's Lieutenant, blah blah blah.
On another point, Humans, that's a damn good deck and even though I thought so for the longest time, I actually think it may be in a Tier by itself (if ever so slightly). Tons of 50/50 matchups across the board.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)humans are probably the deepest tribe in the game, in terms of card effects. a deck that can see the opponents hand AND run 4 main deck meddling mages?
ill admit that im slightly bitter that it basically gets to freeroll so many rainbow lands. its like cmon...at least make them have to make SOME choices. any human in any color from current sets to future ones - they can just swap it in without a second thought.
cavern of souls just continues to get better and better as time goes on.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Or ThopterDepths, if you count it as control.