I hope that people learn a lesson from this unban, and that's that cards don't exist in a vacuum, the context of the format makes a huge difference. I've been arguing with people on these threads and on reddit for years that Jace would most likely not be as good in Modern as he is in Legacy for the exact reasons that we're seeing that borne out to be the case: Modern is much more creature-centric; Jace is a card-advantage card, but Modern is much more about tempo; the decks he goes into are way worse in Modern; and he's a lot harder to protect without free counterspells. Jace proves that some cards can be better in Legacy than they are in Modern, so a card's performance in that format shouldn't be an argument against its existence in Modern.
With that said, I'm hoping we get some more of the fair cards coming off the banlist soon, although it probably won't be until next year after the PT. SFM, Splinter Twin, GSZ, and Pod should all be under serious consideration for unbanning. Anything that enables fast combo can stay away, but anything that encourages longer and more interactive games should get a chance.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
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POD should not be under serious consideration, stop. That card will forever be an issue as it only gets better.
Twin does absolutely nothing to further modern, it just pushes out a ton of tier 2 and tier 3 decks out of existence.
GSZ...doesn't have the same issue as Jace. It's amazing in every stage of the game, from turn 1 to turn 20. It also makes silver-bullet creatures devastating post-board.
I'm willing to give SFM a try, I'm a little worried about SFM AND Jace in one deck, but that's something I'd be willing to give a try. If Jace and SFM prove to be too much together, with the meta unable to adapt, then I guess you reban SFM.
As I said earlier, I really don't think there's any iteration of Modern where Wizards looks at it and says "You know what this format really needs? Twin!" Pod is also in that category. These types of polarizing, homogenizing cards are not coming back. GSZ and SFM definitely could come back in the right metagame. We can paint a picture in which those cards look okay. But Twin and Pod are just fundamentally better than a lot of stuff those color decks are doing now. I'm not even saying they are broken. I'm just saying it is super unlikely that Wizards simultaneously promotes Modern as the "diversity" format, and then decides the best step to keep promoting that diversity is unbanning Twin/Pod. That kind of R&D meeting and agreement is just super improbable.
As I said earlier, I really don't think there's any iteration of Modern where Wizards looks at it and says "You know what this format really needs? Twin!" Pod is also in that category. These types of polarizing, homogenizing cards are not coming back. GSZ and SFM definitely could come back in the right metagame. We can paint a picture in which those cards look okay. But Twin and Pod are just fundamentally better than a lot of stuff those color decks are doing now. I'm not even saying they are broken. I'm just saying it is super unlikely that Wizards simultaneously promotes Modern as the "diversity" format, and then decides the best step to keep promoting that diversity is unbanning Twin/Pod. That kind of R&D meeting and agreement is just super improbable.
Exactly this. If all URx decks would play Through the Breach + Emrakul, then TtB would get banned as well. It's all about diversity of color pie/deck styles vs homogenization. And a fair point is that this is all subjective, but at least we know what wizard's perspective is on the topic.
I never understood the fascination with unbanning green sun's zenith when green is pretty good in the format between rock-style midrange and various CoCo decks.
POD and Green Sun Zenith will never be unbanned IMO.
Birthing Pod will never be unbanned because it skews the meta.
There is literally no reason to play non-pod creature based decks if you unban it.
Green Sun's Zenith will never be unbanned because as other people have said it's good at every stage of the game.
Plus it acts as a one mana ramp spell. That's way too good for modern.
POD and Green Sun Zenith will never be unbanned IMO.
Birthing Pod will never be unbanned because it skews the meta.
There is literally no reason to play non-pod creature based decks if you unban it.
Green Sun's Zenith will never be unbanned because as other people have said it's good at every stage of the game.
Plus it acts as a one mana ramp spell. That's way too good for modern.
I suspect if pod was unbanned it wouldn't be played the same in the past. Key facts are:
1) when pod was banned, collected company didn't exist. They are not compatible. Both are great.
2) when pod was banned, kolaghan's command didn't exist. It may seem irrellevant, but it isn't.
3) when pod was banned, eldrazi didn't exist.
4) when pod was banned, tron decks weren't as popular as nowadays.
It may hurt your ears (or eyes), you can view my past opinions on jace, but birthing pod would be completely fine in modern.
But you made no arguments here except some factual statements. So what if all of these are true? It is also true that stronger creatures have been printed since pod was banned. Also new creature-based combos have been introduced to the format (devoted druid infinite mana). These are all more relevant and point to why Pod should not be unbanned. Any card that homogenizes decks and limits design space is a no-go for modern and Pod does both.
POD and Green Sun Zenith will never be unbanned IMO.
Birthing Pod will never be unbanned because it skews the meta.
There is literally no reason to play non-pod creature based decks if you unban it.
Green Sun's Zenith will never be unbanned because as other people have said it's good at every stage of the game.
Plus it acts as a one mana ramp spell. That's way too good for modern.
I suspect if pod was unbanned it wouldn't be played the same in the past. Key facts are:
1) when pod was banned, collected company didn't exist. They are not compatible. Both are great.
2) when pod was banned, kolaghan's command didn't exist. It may seem irrellevant, but it isn't.
3) when pod was banned, eldrazi didn't exist.
4) when pod was banned, tron decks weren't as popular as nowadays.
It may hurt your ears (or eyes), you can view my past opinions on jace, but birthing pod would be completely fine in modern.
1) Pod is arguably better then coco. It performs a similar function with none of the RNG. I don't think coco decks would survive with pod in the format (unless they also run pod).
2) Actually, that is largely irrelevant. Command does not stop pod from activating at least once. Plus pod decks play witness.
I don't even think command would be very good vs pod decks.
3) And? Pod would have easy game vs eldrazi. Especially with big game hunter (TKS wouldn't be able to actually keep them off threats with pod in play).
4) Again... and? The pod player can easily build his 75 to have a good tron matchup.
pod is just dangerous because of its continuous use. which means that the majority of the deck consists of silver bullets to answer/invalidate any strategy they choose.
one-and-done tutors are fine because it places a burden on the player to make the best use of a limited resource.
GSZ is a plausible unban because it is sorcery speed and can only hit green creatures, so their is a ceiling on what you can accomplish with it.
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pod is just dangerous because of its continuous use. which means that the majority of the deck consists of silver bullets to answer/invalidate any strategy they choose.
one-and-done tutors are fine because it places a burden on the player to make the best use of a limited resource.
GSZ is a plausible unban because it is sorcery speed and can only hit green creatures, so their is a ceiling on what you can accomplish with it.
My problem with green-sun is it scales way too efficiently. If a mana-dork also had an ability that turned it into any threat later in the game, it too would be potentially too good.
Ugh, I have to roll my eyes when people say k command would be enough to answer it
No, no it wouldn't. Pod was banned at the top of its peak, multiple gp wins, 20 percent meta shares
Every creature deck would become pod, it's laughable that company was even compared to this card. This is multiple uses with all upside and no rng. Silver bullets aren't reduced to just 3 mana or less. Multiple combo pieces and value.
This card would singlehandedly destroy every form of zoo, company, gbx deck. It'd get so bad people would root for tron to be tier 1.
Still a hard no on gsz, it's amazing at every turn, and it poses a risk to being too powerful for combo decks.
Sfm feels like the only realistic unban now. Suggestions like twin and dig through time are a joke
Ugh, I have to roll my eyes when people say k command would be enough to answer it
No, no it wouldn't. Pod was banned at the top of its peak, multiple gp wins, 20 percent meta shares
Every creature deck would become pod, it's laughable that company was even compared to this card. This is multiple uses with all upside and no rng. Silver bullets aren't reduced to just 3 mana or less. Multiple combo pieces and value.
This card would singlehandedly destroy every form of zoo, company, gbx deck. It'd get so bad people would root for tron to be tier 1.
Still a hard no on gsz, it's amazing at every turn, and it poses a risk to being too powerful for combo decks.
Sfm feels like the only realistic unban now. Suggestions like twin and dig through time are a joke
I don't even think SFM is unbanable. Turn 3/4 sword has potential to punish fair decks hard.
As a massive Twin fan, I'm surprised anyone who plays Blue Control-Combo or Control period, cannot see just how 'next level' Twin is.
In nearly every game I lose, I can easily see where Twin would have had a better shot at winning. Nearly every game. Now, does UWR Control (not Queller) win? Yes it does. Would Twin win more? Yes it would. Its not even an argument.
People only accepted it, because it was around for so long, because you know what is almost exactly like Twin that tilts people to no end? Turns.
EoT 4 - Dictate
Turn 5 - Combo
Turn 5 + X = You die from a Waterfall punching you in the face 3 times, bonus points if its an Infect 7/7 Flying Waterfall.
And people hate it.
There is no world in which Twin comes off, unless Wizards wants to kill the format off. This isnt Jace where some people proclaimed that it would 'end the format, he's too good, and omg he's too expensive'. This is Twin, a deck we know all too well, and can easily draw a line between what people are doing now (UR Breach for example, or the more post-board Control version's of Blue decks) to what we used to be able to do.
Nobody who plays blue is being honest with themselves if they think Twin would be 'fine' for the format. Not saying busted, but 'fine' in terms of the displayed goals, preferences, and play patterns which Wizards have promoted.
EDIT: In fact I remember some Pod players making the same kind of statements I have made about Twin.
"I never felt out of the game, I always had a chance." Thats the hallmark of a deck that is probably too good.
As a massive Twin fan, I'm surprised anyone who plays Blue Control-Combo or Control period, cannot see just how 'next level' Twin is.
In nearly every game I lose, I can easily see where Twin would have had a better shot at winning. Nearly every game. Now, does UWR Control (not Queller) win? Yes it does. Would Twin win more? Yes it would. Its not even an argument.
People only accepted it, because it was around for so long, because you know what is almost exactly like Twin that tilts people to no end? Turns.
EoT 4 - Dictate
Turn 5 - Combo
Turn 5 + X = You die from a Waterfall punching you in the face 3 times, bonus points if its an Infect 7/7 Flying Waterfall.
And people hate it.
There is no world in which Twin comes off, unless Wizards wants to kill the format off. This isnt Jace where some people proclaimed that it would 'end the format, he's too good, and omg he's too expensive'. This is Twin, a deck we know all too well, and can easily draw a line between what people are doing now (UR Breach for example, or the more post-board Control version's of Blue decks) to what we used to be able to do.
Nobody who plays blue is being honest with themselves if they think Twin would be 'fine' for the format. Not saying busted, but 'fine' in terms of the displayed goals, preferences, and play patterns which Wizards have promoted.
EDIT: In fact I remember some Pod players making the same kind of statements I have made about Twin.
"I never felt out of the game, I always had a chance." Thats the hallmark of a deck that is probably too good.
Honestly, twin was never too good. People hate turns because you can't react to it and it's subject to high RNG (a turn 3 dictate could be game over... but it could also do nothing).
Twin never needed to be be banned. The "reasoning" behind the twin ban was faulty at best. They never attained what they hoped to achieve by banning it except for effectively killing control (at the time).
Now I don't think twin will ever be unbanned... at least not for another year or two.
If wizard can continue to print cards that push control decks, twin is unnecessary.
A year ago, I would have fully agreed with you, but I just cannot see it now.
Note: I said I don't think twin ever needed to be banned... not that I think it would be unbanned.
I think if it was unbanned the format would be fine and still relatively diverse. But I also think twin would be a higher risk unban then JTMS.
Just because something could be unbanned... doesn't mean you should do it.
As a massive Twin fan, I'm surprised anyone who plays Blue Control-Combo or Control period, cannot see just how 'next level' Twin is.
In nearly every game I lose, I can easily see where Twin would have had a better shot at winning. Nearly every game. Now, does UWR Control (not Queller) win? Yes it does. Would Twin win more? Yes it would. Its not even an argument.
People only accepted it, because it was around for so long, because you know what is almost exactly like Twin that tilts people to no end? Turns.
EoT 4 - Dictate
Turn 5 - Combo
Turn 5 + X = You die from a Waterfall punching you in the face 3 times, bonus points if its an Infect 7/7 Flying Waterfall.
And people hate it.
There is no world in which Twin comes off, unless Wizards wants to kill the format off. This isnt Jace where some people proclaimed that it would 'end the format, he's too good, and omg he's too expensive'. This is Twin, a deck we know all too well, and can easily draw a line between what people are doing now (UR Breach for example, or the more post-board Control version's of Blue decks) to what we used to be able to do.
Nobody who plays blue is being honest with themselves if they think Twin would be 'fine' for the format. Not saying busted, but 'fine' in terms of the displayed goals, preferences, and play patterns which Wizards have promoted.
EDIT: In fact I remember some Pod players making the same kind of statements I have made about Twin.
"I never felt out of the game, I always had a chance." Thats the hallmark of a deck that is probably too good.
Honestly, twin was never too good. People hate turns because you can't react to it and it's subject to high RNG (a turn 3 dictate could be game over... but it could also do nothing).
Twin never needed to be be banned. The "reasoning" behind the twin ban was faulty at best. They never attained what they hoped to achieve by banning it except for effectively killing control (at the time).
Now I don't think twin will ever be unbanned... at least not for another year or two.
If wizard can continue to print cards that push control decks, twin is unnecessary.
On the same day Wizards releases the competitive league 5-0 list showing 15 distinct Jace the Mind Sculptor decks, saying wizards hasn't achieved "competitive diversity" among blue decks is a very hard position to take.
As a massive Twin fan, I'm surprised anyone who plays Blue Control-Combo or Control period, cannot see just how 'next level' Twin is.
In nearly every game I lose, I can easily see where Twin would have had a better shot at winning. Nearly every game. Now, does UWR Control (not Queller) win? Yes it does. Would Twin win more? Yes it would. Its not even an argument.
People only accepted it, because it was around for so long, because you know what is almost exactly like Twin that tilts people to no end? Turns.
EoT 4 - Dictate
Turn 5 - Combo
Turn 5 + X = You die from a Waterfall punching you in the face 3 times, bonus points if its an Infect 7/7 Flying Waterfall.
And people hate it.
There is no world in which Twin comes off, unless Wizards wants to kill the format off. This isnt Jace where some people proclaimed that it would 'end the format, he's too good, and omg he's too expensive'. This is Twin, a deck we know all too well, and can easily draw a line between what people are doing now (UR Breach for example, or the more post-board Control version's of Blue decks) to what we used to be able to do.
Nobody who plays blue is being honest with themselves if they think Twin would be 'fine' for the format. Not saying busted, but 'fine' in terms of the displayed goals, preferences, and play patterns which Wizards have promoted.
EDIT: In fact I remember some Pod players making the same kind of statements I have made about Twin.
"I never felt out of the game, I always had a chance." Thats the hallmark of a deck that is probably too good.
Honestly, twin was never too good. People hate turns because you can't react to it and it's subject to high RNG (a turn 3 dictate could be game over... but it could also do nothing).
Twin never needed to be be banned. The "reasoning" behind the twin ban was faulty at best. They never attained what they hoped to achieve by banning it except for effectively killing control (at the time).
Now I don't think twin will ever be unbanned... at least not for another year or two.
If wizard can continue to print cards that push control decks, twin is unnecessary.
On the same day Wizards releases the competitive league 5-0 list showing 15 distinct Jace the Mind Sculptor decks, saying wizards hasn't achieved "competitive diversity" among blue decks is a very hard position to take.
JTMS was unbanned when twin was banned? That's news to me.... (arguably they should have, but that's a different debate :P)
Wizards has increased the diversity of blue decks. But that was through new cards being added to the modern pool and unbans which took years to implement. The diversity in modern we have today had very little to do with the twin ban. (at most an indirect correlation)
Ah yes, I'm sure people would have played UR Pyromancer or Kiki Combo in blue if only those cards had been printed when Twin was still legal...
Those decks are still not good... and see barley any play.
So I gues you are right... sub-par decks see more play because there are less other better options? Not sure that's a positive...
Also - kiki only started seeing more play with Jace/search. Hence my comment the diversity had very little to do with Twin ban.
I honestly think GSZ is fine for the format. At 4 mana I would almost always rather cast a coco to get more value unless I'm digging for a sideboard card. The thing is the format doesn't have many "silver bullets" but it has speed bumps. Kataki isn't an auto scoop for affinity, dredge has tons of removal for all sorts of GY interaction (ravenous trap on the stack, rip is an enchantment, relic is an artifact, yixid jailer is a creature - dredge can beat ALL of them post board), tron can still cast spells even with a bloodmoon out. Boggles doesn't scoop to lili. Yeah sometimes you lose the game before you loosen the lock piece holding down your plan, but they aren't auto hardlocks unless you choose to ignore sideboards all together.
So what if GSZ ramps you. There are a handful of decks that would even care about that anyway. As a creature tutor it's powerful, but it's only green creatures.
As for pod, while I agree it does get progressively better, I tend to feel like people overevaluate strategy hosing cards. It does get better with every creature printed, but doesn't Jace get better as more control cards get printed? Why is this an argument for pod being banned but not for unbanning Jace? The issue with Jace is if a handful of cards like search for azcanta pop up, Jace CAN be very difficult to play against and he CAN be oppressive. He isn't now, I agree, but I don't think it'll be that way forever. If a control deck is able to create a scenario that is similar to the vaccum example, Jace is better then almost any other 4 drop in the format.
I honestly think GSZ is fine for the format. At 4 mana I would almost always rather cast a coco to get more value unless I'm digging for a sideboard card. The thing is the format doesn't have many "silver bullets" but it has speed bumps. Kataki isn't an auto scoop for affinity, dredge has tons of removal for all sorts of GY interaction (ravenous trap on the stack, rip is an enchantment, relic is an artifact, yixid jailer is a creature - dredge can beat ALL of them post board), tron can still cast spells even with a bloodmoon out. Boggles doesn't scoop to lili. Yeah sometimes you lose the game before you loosen the lock piece holding down your plan, but they aren't auto hardlocks unless you choose to ignore sideboards all together.
So what if GSZ ramps you. There are a handful of decks that would even care about that anyway. As a creature tutor it's powerful, but it's only green creatures.
As for pod, while I agree it does get progressively better, I tend to feel like people overevaluate strategy hosing cards. It does get better with every creature printed, but doesn't Jace get better as more control cards get printed? Why is this an argument for pod being banned but not for unbanning Jace? The issue with Jace is if a handful of cards like search for azcanta pop up, Jace CAN be very difficult to play against and he CAN be oppressive. He isn't now, I agree, but I don't think it'll be that way forever. If a control deck is able to create a scenario that is similar to the vaccum example, Jace is better then almost any other 4 drop in the format.
Because Jace doesn't necessarily get better with every new control card... I can't believe someone just made that argument.
Jace can be difficulty to play against and can be oppressive... if the Jace player is already ahead. Jace does nothing when you are behind. Absolutly nothing. Better control cards doesn't change that fact.
POD on the other hand can help when you are behind by finding the exact creature you need to stabilize. The more creatures that are added to the format... the stronger that becomes truth.
As a massive Twin fan, I'm surprised anyone who plays Blue Control-Combo or Control period, cannot see just how 'next level' Twin is.
In nearly every game I lose, I can easily see where Twin would have had a better shot at winning. Nearly every game. Now, does UWR Control (not Queller) win? Yes it does. Would Twin win more? Yes it would. Its not even an argument.
People only accepted it, because it was around for so long, because you know what is almost exactly like Twin that tilts people to no end? Turns.
EoT 4 - Dictate
Turn 5 - Combo
Turn 5 + X = You die from a Waterfall punching you in the face 3 times, bonus points if its an Infect 7/7 Flying Waterfall.
And people hate it.
There is no world in which Twin comes off, unless Wizards wants to kill the format off. This isnt Jace where some people proclaimed that it would 'end the format, he's too good, and omg he's too expensive'. This is Twin, a deck we know all too well, and can easily draw a line between what people are doing now (UR Breach for example, or the more post-board Control version's of Blue decks) to what we used to be able to do.
Nobody who plays blue is being honest with themselves if they think Twin would be 'fine' for the format. Not saying busted, but 'fine' in terms of the displayed goals, preferences, and play patterns which Wizards have promoted.
EDIT: In fact I remember some Pod players making the same kind of statements I have made about Twin.
"I never felt out of the game, I always had a chance." Thats the hallmark of a deck that is probably too good.
Honestly, twin was never too good. People hate turns because you can't react to it and it's subject to high RNG (a turn 3 dictate could be game over... but it could also do nothing).
Twin never needed to be be banned. The "reasoning" behind the twin ban was faulty at best. They never attained what they hoped to achieve by banning it except for effectively killing control (at the time).
Now I don't think twin will ever be unbanned... at least not for another year or two.
If wizard can continue to print cards that push control decks, twin is unnecessary.
On the same day Wizards releases the competitive league 5-0 list showing 15 distinct Jace the Mind Sculptor decks, saying wizards hasn't achieved "competitive diversity" among blue decks is a very hard position to take.
As a massive Twin fan, I'm surprised anyone who plays Blue Control-Combo or Control period, cannot see just how 'next level' Twin is.
In nearly every game I lose, I can easily see where Twin would have had a better shot at winning. Nearly every game. Now, does UWR Control (not Queller) win? Yes it does. Would Twin win more? Yes it would. Its not even an argument.
People only accepted it, because it was around for so long, because you know what is almost exactly like Twin that tilts people to no end? Turns.
EoT 4 - Dictate
Turn 5 - Combo
Turn 5 + X = You die from a Waterfall punching you in the face 3 times, bonus points if its an Infect 7/7 Flying Waterfall.
And people hate it.
There is no world in which Twin comes off, unless Wizards wants to kill the format off. This isnt Jace where some people proclaimed that it would 'end the format, he's too good, and omg he's too expensive'. This is Twin, a deck we know all too well, and can easily draw a line between what people are doing now (UR Breach for example, or the more post-board Control version's of Blue decks) to what we used to be able to do.
Nobody who plays blue is being honest with themselves if they think Twin would be 'fine' for the format. Not saying busted, but 'fine' in terms of the displayed goals, preferences, and play patterns which Wizards have promoted.
EDIT: In fact I remember some Pod players making the same kind of statements I have made about Twin.
"I never felt out of the game, I always had a chance." Thats the hallmark of a deck that is probably too good.
Honestly, twin was never too good. People hate turns because you can't react to it and it's subject to high RNG (a turn 3 dictate could be game over... but it could also do nothing).
Twin never needed to be be banned. The "reasoning" behind the twin ban was faulty at best. They never attained what they hoped to achieve by banning it except for effectively killing control (at the time).
Now I don't think twin will ever be unbanned... at least not for another year or two.
If wizard can continue to print cards that push control decks, twin is unnecessary.
On the same day Wizards releases the competitive league 5-0 list showing 15 distinct Jace the Mind Sculptor decks, saying wizards hasn't achieved "competitive diversity" among blue decks is a very hard position to take.
Jace is not a deck. Jace, is a blue engine.
I totally agree with this. I don't think Jace is a problem now, obviously look at his lack of results. My argument for others who don't think he is - what cards can end up seeing print that all of a sudden create that vaccum of t4+ Jace into an empty board and he just takes over from there. I like chandra, torch of defiance so much better from a design standpoint because she had advantage/removal/and a highly punishing ult. Jace just does all of that better in a vaccum if the Creature he's dealing with doesn't have a relevant ETB/LTB trigger and haste. At least after Chandra removes a dude the shields are down for a turn or two usually if your creature doesn't have haste it's not as punishing.
That aside, I'm kind of worried the format is going to devolve into colorless sideboards eventually. You have artifacts that stop GY/library ETB (grafdiggers cage), mess with the number of spells and lands now (damping sphere), exile GYs (relic), shutdown activated abilities (pitching needle and phyrexian revoker), removal (dismember if you pay life, or guy shot for that matter), targeted spells and abilities (spellskite), tax spells (trinnisphere), etc. in fact all 5 colors have access to some pretty strong stuff to handle a variety of zones/strats now that I think about it.
I think artifact removal is just going to be at a premium soon and eventually these types of cards could homogenize sideboards to a degree. Not 100% but we already see it for some decks splashing white sometimes.
Even with Jace not putting up results and I've beat the card so far; I'm never thrilled to play against it. It slows the game down to a crawl and just interacts too much for one card imho.
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With that said, I'm hoping we get some more of the fair cards coming off the banlist soon, although it probably won't be until next year after the PT. SFM, Splinter Twin, GSZ, and Pod should all be under serious consideration for unbanning. Anything that enables fast combo can stay away, but anything that encourages longer and more interactive games should get a chance.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Twin does absolutely nothing to further modern, it just pushes out a ton of tier 2 and tier 3 decks out of existence.
GSZ...doesn't have the same issue as Jace. It's amazing in every stage of the game, from turn 1 to turn 20. It also makes silver-bullet creatures devastating post-board.
I'm willing to give SFM a try, I'm a little worried about SFM AND Jace in one deck, but that's something I'd be willing to give a try. If Jace and SFM prove to be too much together, with the meta unable to adapt, then I guess you reban SFM.
might want to rethink your approach
UWGSnow-Bant Control
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UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
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BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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Birthing Pod will never be unbanned because it skews the meta.
There is literally no reason to play non-pod creature based decks if you unban it.
Green Sun's Zenith will never be unbanned because as other people have said it's good at every stage of the game.
Plus it acts as a one mana ramp spell. That's way too good for modern.
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BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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1) Pod is arguably better then coco. It performs a similar function with none of the RNG. I don't think coco decks would survive with pod in the format (unless they also run pod).
2) Actually, that is largely irrelevant. Command does not stop pod from activating at least once. Plus pod decks play witness.
I don't even think command would be very good vs pod decks.
3) And? Pod would have easy game vs eldrazi. Especially with big game hunter (TKS wouldn't be able to actually keep them off threats with pod in play).
4) Again... and? The pod player can easily build his 75 to have a good tron matchup.
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
one-and-done tutors are fine because it places a burden on the player to make the best use of a limited resource.
GSZ is a plausible unban because it is sorcery speed and can only hit green creatures, so their is a ceiling on what you can accomplish with it.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)My problem with green-sun is it scales way too efficiently. If a mana-dork also had an ability that turned it into any threat later in the game, it too would be potentially too good.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
No, no it wouldn't. Pod was banned at the top of its peak, multiple gp wins, 20 percent meta shares
Every creature deck would become pod, it's laughable that company was even compared to this card. This is multiple uses with all upside and no rng. Silver bullets aren't reduced to just 3 mana or less. Multiple combo pieces and value.
This card would singlehandedly destroy every form of zoo, company, gbx deck. It'd get so bad people would root for tron to be tier 1.
Still a hard no on gsz, it's amazing at every turn, and it poses a risk to being too powerful for combo decks.
Sfm feels like the only realistic unban now. Suggestions like twin and dig through time are a joke
I don't even think SFM is unbanable. Turn 3/4 sword has potential to punish fair decks hard.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
In nearly every game I lose, I can easily see where Twin would have had a better shot at winning. Nearly every game. Now, does UWR Control (not Queller) win? Yes it does. Would Twin win more? Yes it would. Its not even an argument.
People only accepted it, because it was around for so long, because you know what is almost exactly like Twin that tilts people to no end? Turns.
EoT 4 - Dictate
Turn 5 - Combo
Turn 5 + X = You die from a Waterfall punching you in the face 3 times, bonus points if its an Infect 7/7 Flying Waterfall.
And people hate it.
There is no world in which Twin comes off, unless Wizards wants to kill the format off. This isnt Jace where some people proclaimed that it would 'end the format, he's too good, and omg he's too expensive'. This is Twin, a deck we know all too well, and can easily draw a line between what people are doing now (UR Breach for example, or the more post-board Control version's of Blue decks) to what we used to be able to do.
Nobody who plays blue is being honest with themselves if they think Twin would be 'fine' for the format. Not saying busted, but 'fine' in terms of the displayed goals, preferences, and play patterns which Wizards have promoted.
EDIT: In fact I remember some Pod players making the same kind of statements I have made about Twin.
"I never felt out of the game, I always had a chance." Thats the hallmark of a deck that is probably too good.
Spirits
Honestly, twin was never too good. People hate turns because you can't react to it and it's subject to high RNG (a turn 3 dictate could be game over... but it could also do nothing).
Twin never needed to be be banned. The "reasoning" behind the twin ban was faulty at best. They never attained what they hoped to achieve by banning it except for effectively killing control (at the time).
Now I don't think twin will ever be unbanned... at least not for another year or two.
If wizard can continue to print cards that push control decks, twin is unnecessary.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Spirits
Note: I said I don't think twin ever needed to be banned... not that I think it would be unbanned.
I think if it was unbanned the format would be fine and still relatively diverse. But I also think twin would be a higher risk unban then JTMS.
Just because something could be unbanned... doesn't mean you should do it.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
On the same day Wizards releases the competitive league 5-0 list showing 15 distinct Jace the Mind Sculptor decks, saying wizards hasn't achieved "competitive diversity" among blue decks is a very hard position to take.
JTMS was unbanned when twin was banned? That's news to me.... (arguably they should have, but that's a different debate :P)
Wizards has increased the diversity of blue decks. But that was through new cards being added to the modern pool and unbans which took years to implement. The diversity in modern we have today had very little to do with the twin ban. (at most an indirect correlation)
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Those decks are still not good... and see barley any play.
So I gues you are right... sub-par decks see more play because there are less other better options? Not sure that's a positive...
Also - kiki only started seeing more play with Jace/search. Hence my comment the diversity had very little to do with Twin ban.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
So what if GSZ ramps you. There are a handful of decks that would even care about that anyway. As a creature tutor it's powerful, but it's only green creatures.
As for pod, while I agree it does get progressively better, I tend to feel like people overevaluate strategy hosing cards. It does get better with every creature printed, but doesn't Jace get better as more control cards get printed? Why is this an argument for pod being banned but not for unbanning Jace? The issue with Jace is if a handful of cards like search for azcanta pop up, Jace CAN be very difficult to play against and he CAN be oppressive. He isn't now, I agree, but I don't think it'll be that way forever. If a control deck is able to create a scenario that is similar to the vaccum example, Jace is better then almost any other 4 drop in the format.
Because Jace doesn't necessarily get better with every new control card... I can't believe someone just made that argument.
Jace can be difficulty to play against and can be oppressive... if the Jace player is already ahead. Jace does nothing when you are behind. Absolutly nothing. Better control cards doesn't change that fact.
POD on the other hand can help when you are behind by finding the exact creature you need to stabilize. The more creatures that are added to the format... the stronger that becomes truth.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Jace is not a deck. Jace, is a blue engine.
Spirits
I totally agree with this. I don't think Jace is a problem now, obviously look at his lack of results. My argument for others who don't think he is - what cards can end up seeing print that all of a sudden create that vaccum of t4+ Jace into an empty board and he just takes over from there. I like chandra, torch of defiance so much better from a design standpoint because she had advantage/removal/and a highly punishing ult. Jace just does all of that better in a vaccum if the Creature he's dealing with doesn't have a relevant ETB/LTB trigger and haste. At least after Chandra removes a dude the shields are down for a turn or two usually if your creature doesn't have haste it's not as punishing.
That aside, I'm kind of worried the format is going to devolve into colorless sideboards eventually. You have artifacts that stop GY/library ETB (grafdiggers cage), mess with the number of spells and lands now (damping sphere), exile GYs (relic), shutdown activated abilities (pitching needle and phyrexian revoker), removal (dismember if you pay life, or guy shot for that matter), targeted spells and abilities (spellskite), tax spells (trinnisphere), etc. in fact all 5 colors have access to some pretty strong stuff to handle a variety of zones/strats now that I think about it.
I think artifact removal is just going to be at a premium soon and eventually these types of cards could homogenize sideboards to a degree. Not 100% but we already see it for some decks splashing white sometimes.
Even with Jace not putting up results and I've beat the card so far; I'm never thrilled to play against it. It slows the game down to a crawl and just interacts too much for one card imho.