Lantern matches should not be generally going to time.
Case where opponent refuses to concede unless you "produce a kill", in which you need to loop spellbomb or explain the opponent cannot succeed because you are selecting draws.
Case where the player (such as myself) is newish to the deck and takes too much time milling or searching and so on.
Case where the matchup is grindy. but that's really a corner case, since you might be playing UW but they can potentially get out from under bridge for a kill and so on.
"Unfun" does not really resonate with me as a reason to ban something. I like Lantern, one of my Modern-playing friends despises it. Another is confident he can't lose to it (UW player). It's a niche deck that is super skill-intensive. Let's not kill that? They could kill Opal but that seems a bit meh. Just leave the format alone for this cycle and see if the deck becomes oppressive. Twitter peeps (Twweeps) have suggested axing Whir, since it's an instant-to-field tutor...
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
The fact is, if WOTC chooses to ban a deck based on the lack of popularity and the "annoyingness" of playing against it, that will be the first time in Magic History that a deck was banned for those reasons and it's just not going to happen.
Not true, eggs was in a very similar boat.
If you look at the ban announcement for Second Sunrise, the reason Eggs got removed as a deck was because in most tournaments the players would not only go to time, but the final 5 turns of the game would take 15 minutes or more. This for larger events like a GP will cause the event to run hours later than it was initially scheduled to. As such, Eggs got the axe.
That's the excuse they used, but tournament logistics weren't suffering much at the time. It got banned because of Kiblers F5 on camera. That made for bad publicity. Lantern creates a very similar line of play, the only real difference is that you occasionally pass the turn. Rounds don't run late with Lantern, but it's still a bad deck to have running around in high numbers. Again, I think the deck is fine right now, but if it rises in metagame percent it won't be fine.
Alright, I need to address this due to the mountains of reports we're getting from here. The biggest issue on the table is Splinter Twin. We (the mods) are currently discussing it and will most likely have something up regarding it tonight (it's currently 1:44 PM EST, for reference's sake). Until then, we're just asking everyone to hold on a little bit. If we allow it abruptly, it contributes to mass confusion and clogs up the report system, which makes handling other parts of the Modern subforum difficult. Additionally, we don't have input from everyone on our section of staff yet. Please be patient with us while we try to keep this place running smoothly.
Now back to your regularly scheduled bantering.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
The closest to a sign of an unban might, MIGHT be that JTMS is already seeing another reprint after being reprinted two years ago. Then again, WOTC may just think they can cash in on legacy staples the way they have done with modern and commander. The argument has long been that standard is the money maker, but I'm not sure the gap is as wide now as it was five years ago. Personally, I think the format should be left alone. The fears that the pros would break modern were firmly eliminated. I get it, there are a half dozen cards that would improve some people's pet deck, or archetype. Some cards unbanned would reintroduce a particular fair deck, perhaps. Some cards may improve a color or color combination's involvement in modern. Modern Nexus has done a great job at analyzing some of these. However, we just saw a top eight with seven different decks. Even more decks posted 6+ wins, made day two. As diverse as modern is, it is a pipe dream to assume that every color, every color combination, and every traditional archetype needs to have a tier 1/2 rep. Despite the large pool of cards, the cream will rise to the top (not to mention change, the past few years have introduced several standard sets with modern playable cards, even introducing new decks).
The Second Sunrise ban indicates that WOTC is willing to ban a deck due to being considered wildly unfun by the majority of the community. I don't think lantern fits that bill, because I think lantern runs long only when the opponent doesn't understand that they are locked out. I acknowledge that I could be in the minority, though, so let's roll with the theorycrafting. WOTC also has stated that they would rather make bans that nerf decks into being less dominant than outright destroying them. I would imagine an ancient stirrings or mox opal ban to be the two targets. Definitely not both, unless the format is dominated by both lantern and the corresponding tier 1 decks in tron and affinity that share those two as staples.
Modern simultaneously proved pros wrong in that they couldn't find a best deck nor was it a miserable affair (Can Andrea Mengucci keep whining with a top 8 appearance?). Look at other formats...there's something to be said regarding the addage to not fix something that isn't broken.
That's the excuse they used, but tournament logistics weren't suffering much at the time. It got banned because of Kiblers F5 on camera. That made for bad publicity. Lantern creates a very similar line of play, the only real difference is that you occasionally pass the turn. Rounds don't run late with Lantern, but it's still a bad deck to have running around in high numbers. Again, I think the deck is fine right now, but if it rises in metagame percent it won't be fine.
How do you know tournament logistics weren't suffering? Are you a tournament organizer? If you look are reports from back then you can here people complaining about how it's taken 4-5 hours just for round 3 to start. That is ridiculous.
And if you are going to brush off the reasoning Wizard's gave for banning a card as, "the excuse the used" to ban it, don't then talk about how because Eggs was banned Wizards shows they don't like decks like Lantern.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
That's the excuse they used, but tournament logistics weren't suffering much at the time. It got banned because of Kiblers F5 on camera. That made for bad publicity. Lantern creates a very similar line of play, the only real difference is that you occasionally pass the turn. Rounds don't run late with Lantern, but it's still a bad deck to have running around in high numbers. Again, I think the deck is fine right now, but if it rises in metagame percent it won't be fine.
Um... no, tournament logistics were definitely suffering. Big tournaments were taking hours longer to finish. I talked to tournament organizers and judges, and they all hated Eggs because of how much longer tournaments took due to the deck. Actually, I once talked to a Level 2 judge to ask him if judges get any special information regarding bannings. He said they didn't, but that before the Eggs ban, Wizards of the Coast actually talked with a number of judges about their thoughts on the deck, which he said they hadn't done for any previous card that was banned.
Things like Kibler's F5 might have been contributing factors as well, but to claim tournament logistics weren't suffering much at the time is complete revisionist history.
I think we should be seriously talking about GSZ. Green is arguably as bad off as white in the format, and the pro tour results bear that out, though I would of course take them with a grain of salt. And GSZ unlike stoneforge actually does enforce green as the core.
The lack of any diversity in green midrange decks (they all play collected company) is boring. Titanshift is fine but beatable, and the card does not drop into it -- there're lots of arguments for summoner's pact being outright better build-wise. Perhaps they play it, but it isn't necessarily better.
Having the option to play green with GSZ but no company would, in my opinion, really open up the green deckbuilding.
You said all green decks play CoCo, then mention a green deck that doesn't play CoCo...
If you read the post you'd see I was talking about green midrange decks. Titanshift is not a midrange deck it's a combo deck (or a big mana deck if you must).
Green core midrange decks in modern all play collected company (abzan company, bant company, elves, bant spirits, etc. etc.).
I think we should be seriously talking about GSZ. Green is arguably as bad off as white in the format, and the pro tour results bear that out, though I would of course take them with a grain of salt. And GSZ unlike stoneforge actually does enforce green as the core.
The lack of any diversity in green midrange decks (they all play collected company) is boring. Titanshift is fine but beatable, and the card does not drop into it -- there're lots of arguments for summoner's pact being outright better build-wise. Perhaps they play it, but it isn't necessarily better.
Having the option to play green with GSZ but no company would, in my opinion, really open up the green deckbuilding.
You said all green decks play CoCo, then mention a green deck that doesn't play CoCo...
If you read the post you'd see I was talking about green midrange decks. Titanshift is not a midrange deck it's a combo deck (or a big mana deck if you must).
Green core midrange decks in modern all play collected company (abzan company, bant company, elves, bant spirits, etc. etc.).
Ried duke just top 8’d with a midrange green deck that didn’t run coco so...
I'm just going to go on record now in predicting no bans next week. Especially no Lantern bans. There was a great reddit post today about IDs at the PT and how Lantern was barely a factor. Although this doesn't fully eliminate the logistical issues for Lantern, it definitely diminishes them. The deck isn't remotely violating any other rules of the format and hasn't even affected event viewership; it remained high during the PT, went up going into the finals, and evidently even increases during SCG showings of the deck. It's just not offensive by any published Wizards standard. The recent cry for bans is merely an extreme example of ban mania aimed at a winning deck that vocal people dislike and, importantly, I believe Wizards knows this. See the Forsythe Tweets as further examples of this. All of these reasons point to Lantern likely being very safe from bans.
Ried duke just top 8’d with a midrange green deck that didn’t run coco so...
Again, please try to follow the discussion. Abzan is a black midrange deck splashing green and white. It has a heavy green splash but as we have seen by all the different discard decks (mardu, abzan, jund, GB, and even BR demigod and BR eldrazi and WB eldrazi and B eldrazi) over the years the core is a bunch of painless black lands and 6-8 discard spells, combined with black removal spells.
Abzan company and elves are green decks that splash other colors. You can tell largely by the one drops. Titanshift also a green deck (search for tomorrow being the premier green 1-drop).
I don't know where the comment about bans comes from, but this modern is the healthiest it's been in a long time and the only painful part is that because WoTC is restricting information places like MTG Goldfish can't even show the changes accurately. Lantern Control won for goodness sakes. Winning with that deck is like winning a race while dragging several tires with you on a rope given how hard that deck is to play.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Why do people think lantern is extremely hard to play? A lock is a lock it’s not that hard to know what you need now that you can tutor it up quickly. I think the deck is beatable but it’s not difficult to pilot by any means imo.
Why do people think lantern is extremely hard to play? A lock is a lock it’s not that hard to know what you need now that you can tutor it up quickly. I think the deck is beatable but it’s not difficult to pilot by any means imo.
If you believe that I legitimately want you to pilot it and they come to a wonderfully rude awakening
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Why do people think lantern is extremely hard to play? A lock is a lock it’s not that hard to know what you need now that you can tutor it up quickly. I think the deck is beatable but it’s not difficult to pilot by any means imo.
If you believe that I legitimately want you to pilot it and they come to a wonderfully rude awakening
I pilot it often as well as many other modern decks. Decisions playing ds decks are much harder imo.
Why do people think lantern is extremely hard to play? A lock is a lock it’s not that hard to know what you need now that you can tutor it up quickly. I think the deck is beatable but it’s not difficult to pilot by any means imo.
If you believe that I legitimately want you to pilot it and they come to a wonderfully rude awakening
I've been playing heavily for 10 years now in several competitive formats so I consider myself a decent player or at least well experienced. I played lantern a few games before whir of invention was printed and I wanted to pull my hair out. Those were very sharp lines of play with great consequences for misplays. It was much less forgiving than any other deck I have played. Even just deciding what was a good opening hand was hard because you need all the peices for the lock but on there own only the ensnaring bridge is very useful. Whir does make it look easier now, but I still have much respect for these pilots.
Why do people think lantern is extremely hard to play? A lock is a lock it’s not that hard to know what you need now that you can tutor it up quickly. I think the deck is beatable but it’s not difficult to pilot by any means imo.
If you believe that I legitimately want you to pilot it and they come to a wonderfully rude awakening
I've been playing heavily for 10 years now in several competitive formats so I consider myself a decent player or at least well experienced. I played lantern a few games before whir of invention was printed and I wanted to pull my hair out. Those were very sharp lines of play with great consequences for misplays. It was much less forgiving than any other deck I have played. Even just deciding what was a good opening hand was hard because you need all the peices for the lock but on there own only the ensnaring bridge is very useful. Whir does make it look easier now, but I still have much respect for these pilots.
Whir makes it much easier. You can wait to go get what you need at instant speed when you need it. If anything goes I definitely think it’ll be whir.
Really? I don't think the deck looked equipped to beat Lantern at all.
On another note, did anyone see Saffron test out Jace and SFM v BBE and DRS?
BBE really didn't look that amazing. BBE didn't look that amazing when Nelson v Stevens occurred.
I just don't get it. People say the meta is healthy, don't change it! ...But we certainly aren't going to unban things when the meta is a mess, right? If not, then when?
Jund is literally .18 on Mttgoldfish right now. BBE probably only propels Jund into tier 2 at this point. The deck has literally become fringe, it's barely clinging onto tier 3.
Really? I don't think the deck looked equipped to beat Lantern at all.
On another note, did anyone see Saffron test out Jace and SFM v BBE and DRS?
BBE really didn't look that amazing. BBE didn't look that amazing when Nelson v Stevens occurred.
I just don't get it. People say the meta is healthy, don't change it! ...But we certainly aren't going to unban things when the meta is a mess, right? If not, then when?
Jund is literally .18 on Mttgoldfish right now. BBE probably only propels Jund into tier 2 at this point. The deck has literally become fringe, it's barely clinging onto tier 3.
I don't agree. BBE looked amazing, just not amazing in the face of Jace. If on the other side there was anything else but Jace, I think Jund would have taken all matches.
Case where opponent refuses to concede unless you "produce a kill", in which you need to loop spellbomb or explain the opponent cannot succeed because you are selecting draws.
Case where the player (such as myself) is newish to the deck and takes too much time milling or searching and so on.
Case where the matchup is grindy. but that's really a corner case, since you might be playing UW but they can potentially get out from under bridge for a kill and so on.
"Unfun" does not really resonate with me as a reason to ban something. I like Lantern, one of my Modern-playing friends despises it. Another is confident he can't lose to it (UW player). It's a niche deck that is super skill-intensive. Let's not kill that? They could kill Opal but that seems a bit meh. Just leave the format alone for this cycle and see if the deck becomes oppressive. Twitter peeps (Twweeps) have suggested axing Whir, since it's an instant-to-field tutor...
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
That's the excuse they used, but tournament logistics weren't suffering much at the time. It got banned because of Kiblers F5 on camera. That made for bad publicity. Lantern creates a very similar line of play, the only real difference is that you occasionally pass the turn. Rounds don't run late with Lantern, but it's still a bad deck to have running around in high numbers. Again, I think the deck is fine right now, but if it rises in metagame percent it won't be fine.
Now back to your regularly scheduled bantering.
The Second Sunrise ban indicates that WOTC is willing to ban a deck due to being considered wildly unfun by the majority of the community. I don't think lantern fits that bill, because I think lantern runs long only when the opponent doesn't understand that they are locked out. I acknowledge that I could be in the minority, though, so let's roll with the theorycrafting. WOTC also has stated that they would rather make bans that nerf decks into being less dominant than outright destroying them. I would imagine an ancient stirrings or mox opal ban to be the two targets. Definitely not both, unless the format is dominated by both lantern and the corresponding tier 1 decks in tron and affinity that share those two as staples.
Modern simultaneously proved pros wrong in that they couldn't find a best deck nor was it a miserable affair (Can Andrea Mengucci keep whining with a top 8 appearance?). Look at other formats...there's something to be said regarding the addage to not fix something that isn't broken.
How do you know tournament logistics weren't suffering? Are you a tournament organizer? If you look are reports from back then you can here people complaining about how it's taken 4-5 hours just for round 3 to start. That is ridiculous.
And if you are going to brush off the reasoning Wizard's gave for banning a card as, "the excuse the used" to ban it, don't then talk about how because Eggs was banned Wizards shows they don't like decks like Lantern.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm really certain they would play 2x and possibly jam Last Hope in there, if possible
Things like Kibler's F5 might have been contributing factors as well, but to claim tournament logistics weren't suffering much at the time is complete revisionist history.
If you read the post you'd see I was talking about green midrange decks. Titanshift is not a midrange deck it's a combo deck (or a big mana deck if you must).
Green core midrange decks in modern all play collected company (abzan company, bant company, elves, bant spirits, etc. etc.).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Ried duke just top 8’d with a midrange green deck that didn’t run coco so...
Again, please try to follow the discussion. Abzan is a black midrange deck splashing green and white. It has a heavy green splash but as we have seen by all the different discard decks (mardu, abzan, jund, GB, and even BR demigod and BR eldrazi and WB eldrazi and B eldrazi) over the years the core is a bunch of painless black lands and 6-8 discard spells, combined with black removal spells.
Abzan company and elves are green decks that splash other colors. You can tell largely by the one drops. Titanshift also a green deck (search for tomorrow being the premier green 1-drop).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
If you believe that I legitimately want you to pilot it and they come to a wonderfully rude awakening
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I pilot it often as well as many other modern decks. Decisions playing ds decks are much harder imo.
Whir makes it much easier. You can wait to go get what you need at instant speed when you need it. If anything goes I definitely think it’ll be whir.
It wasn't very effective on Sunday......
On another note, did anyone see Saffron test out Jace and SFM v BBE and DRS?
BBE really didn't look that amazing. BBE didn't look that amazing when Nelson v Stevens occurred.
I just don't get it. People say the meta is healthy, don't change it! ...But we certainly aren't going to unban things when the meta is a mess, right? If not, then when?
Jund is literally .18 on Mttgoldfish right now. BBE probably only propels Jund into tier 2 at this point. The deck has literally become fringe, it's barely clinging onto tier 3.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past