The problem with SFM is not that the card itself is broken. The problem is that it is only really good against other fair decks. Its inclusion would easily lead to a reduced diversity of fair decks, and the meta would descend to "SFM fair decks vs unfair decks vs "fair" decks."
Sure, Affinity, Storm and Dredge seem more degenerate than SFM decks, and I don't disagree. The problem is SFM pushes out more fair interactive decks than linear ones. FFS, did you all buy fifty copies and are pushing for a spike? What is the fascination with this one card being reintroduced into a format with a ton of diversity?
What Fair decks exactly? Look at the top 2 tiers, there are maybe 2 decks in there that are 'fair'.
The problem with SFM is not that the card itself is broken. The problem is that it is only really good against other fair decks. Its inclusion would easily lead to a reduced diversity of fair decks, and the meta would descend to "SFM fair decks vs unfair decks vs "fair" decks."
Sure, Affinity, Storm and Dredge seem more degenerate than SFM decks, and I don't disagree. The problem is SFM pushes out more fair interactive decks than linear ones. FFS, did you all buy fifty copies and are pushing for a spike? What is the fascination with this one card being reintroduced into a format with a ton of diversity?
Likely players who have the card and want to play it? No need to assume ill motives on this one. Lots of cards are better against fair decks than unfair ones, but that is no reason to have a card on the banned list.
What is your fascination with keeping it banned? Why do you care so much if a group of players that like a card on the banlist are advocating for its return? Isn't it reasonable for the people who have the card rotting in their binder to advocate for its return when opponents regularly pack even more powerful cards? I mean I'm just sitting over here with my SFM in my binder, and you're casting Death's Shadow, Karn Liberated and reanimating multiple Prized Amalgams before I can even get a batterskull into play! Not to mention that against the top decks you'll run into Thoughtseize, Kolaghan's Command, Fatal Push, Lightning bolt, etc.
Once you put some thought into how it's real lines of play interact with other decks (or you know, test the card) it's hard to see it as worthy of a ban. Wanting SFM unbanned is simply consistent with my other views - such as no cards presently need to be banned.
I'm just gonna throw this out there. The Modern PT is a great way to shake up the format in ways the don't effect the community at large. For example: "For the Modern PT, Stoneforge Mystic will be legal to use in deck creation." or they could ban something for the tournament instead.
I believe said tournament-only ban or unban would shake up the format enough to get people to want to watch without making a portion of the playerbase cry about something being banned or unbanned. And if after the PT they decide the change is a good one, then they make it official.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
And then end up re-banning it after the pro tour shows how busted it is, which is what would happen.
Are you saying that [cards]Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Preordain, Stoneforge Mystic, and Green Sun's Zenith[cards] are way more busted than anything that's going on in the current Modern? I can see you saying this about some of these, but all? Maybe Preordain is much better than a turn 3 B, 8/8. I don't agree, but I get that. Is Bloodbraid Elf better than a turn 3 B, 8/8? I do not even like the card much, but I have to admit that it's pretty damn harmless and I trust my instinct to know if some Pro is going to "break" Bloodbraid Elf.
How does a Pro break Stoneforge Mystic in a way that we don't already know? We know the Swords, we know Batterskull. Maybe they put in Elbrus, the Binding Blade? I realize Pros can get a lot done in a shorter time than most people, but I honestly don't see what's so secret about these cards that the community hasn't always thought through. Remember, Wizards previously thought that Sword of the Meek would give Lantern Control a better win-con?
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm just gonna throw this out there. The Modern PT is a great way to shake up the format in ways the don't effect the community at large. For example: "For the Modern PT, Stoneforge Mystic will be legal to use in deck creation." or they could ban something for the tournament instead.
I believe said tournament-only ban or unban would shake up the format enough to get people to want to watch without making a portion of the playerbase cry about something being banned or unbanned. And if after the PT they decide the change is a good one, then they make it official.
Remember that the goal of a 'shake-up ban' is to allow more room for standard cards to enter the format. Therefore, "shake-up unbans" are incoherent as they do not open space for standard-level cards, but rather tend to increase the bar for a card to enter the format.
A 'shake-up unban' should have the opposite effect to a 'shake-up ban', and therefore be undesirable to WotC.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I'm just gonna throw this out there. The Modern PT is a great way to shake up the format in ways the don't effect the community at large. For example: "For the Modern PT, Stoneforge Mystic will be legal to use in deck creation." or they could ban something for the tournament instead.
I believe said tournament-only ban or unban would shake up the format enough to get people to want to watch without making a portion of the playerbase cry about something being banned or unbanned. And if after the PT they decide the change is a good one, then they make it official.
Remember that the goal of a 'shake-up ban' is to allow more room for standard cards to enter the format. Therefore, "shake-up unbans" are incoherent as they do not open space for standard-level cards, but rather tend to increase the bar for a card to enter the format.
A 'shake-up unban' should have the opposite effect to a 'shake-up ban', and therefore be undesirable to WotC.
This is a good point. The bottom line is selling Standard cards (which equates to packs that someone has to open), not a format that makes them no money, outside of GPs and other events.
Unbanning Bloodbraid Elf, a card that would see no competitive play, just doesn't help sell Standard cards.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
This is a good point. The bottom line is selling Standard cards (which equates to packs that someone has to open), not a format that makes them no money, outside of GPs and other events.
Unbanning Bloodbraid Elf, a card that would see no competitive play, just doesn't help sell Standard cards.
As said above, that is why they have Draft. Not to mention that WotC (or at least MaRo) has mentioned before that the PT is NOT the Promotional Tour, but the Professional Tour. At the very least at the PT's core it suppose to be (at least from what they tell us) about a big fancy tournament for the best players in the game. That they get to showcase new cards is just icing on the cake.
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Wizards is just continuing the train ride of interesting decisions the past few years...
- "New Eldrazi creatures would be cool with Eye and Temple!"
- Remove Modern PT
- Change block/set structure
- Remove core sets
- Heavily push cards/characters for sake of story
- Reduce impact of spells and answers
- Change rotation timing
- Change rotation timing back
- Double timing of ban announcement
- Unprecedented Standard bannings (5 cards across 3 announcements in 6 months)
- Unprecedented emergency Standard ban 2 days after "all clear"
- Roll back speed of ban announcements
- Bring back core sets
- Remove FNM promos
- Remove and obfuscate MTGO data
- Bring back Modern PT
Did I forget anything?
Now, it seems they have also taken some steps in the right direction, like with the formation of the Play Design team, but confidence in Wizards' ability to create and manage their own game seems to be at an all time low. What this seems to mean for at least the next year or two, is we have to slosh through lots and lots of more mistakes, walk-backs, and strange decisions before things smooth themselves out. The past few years seem like a truly awful time to be a Magic player, which is a shame to have things so bad after the explosive awesomeness that was the previous several years (which personally brought me back to the game after 17 years in Summer 2014).
The result of them screwing up Standard for two+ years has meant Modern has been left out to rot (no unbans or support from new cards). Which wouldn't be so bad if they didn't keep printing broken things that we don't have answers for. Now with the replacement of the PT, we're right back to being under the microscope and will likely go back to excessive and unnecessary bans in order to artificially shake up their precious Pro Tour.
Wizards has a LOT of problems, most of which are self-inflicted. And their solutions seem highly questionable. It's extremely worrisome for someone who has literally thousands of dollars tied up in the game.
To bring it back a bit more positive, I would like to note that WotC has mentioned the importance of iterating models to improve upon them (ex: patches in video games). This necessarily means making mistakes in order to gather data on the outcome of a specific policy/framework. Each time they make a change, in part due to their willingness to revert negative changes, they are finding ways to improve the game. The improvements require experimentation with negative outcomes in order to discover the changes with positive outcomes.
We're blundering from change to change looking for the best way for MTG to function. Seems kinda blundering when you're in it, but overall the game-play certainly doesn't seem (to me) to be getting worse. If anything, the game-play is as strong or stronger than it has ever been.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Oh yeah, all that stuff is better than what we got right now. What 4 mana gold card is better than BBE? I can't think of any blue cards in the current meta better than Jace and Preordain. What white card is better than SFM? GSZ has much bigger upsides than the other green creature tutors we have right now. I don't see how you could argue they're worse than what we have.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
You could probably add the "pay the pros" debacle and the walking back of the Gatewatch.
I think WotC might have actually been stoned for the last couple of years.
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In play: Jund Death Shadow, Grixis Control, Eldrazi Stompy, Ponza
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
I have zero issue with WOTC undoing decisions. That's, in my opinion, how a person or organization should handle the decision making process: change something, see its effects, then reevaluate and decide whether to press onward or go back to the old way. A little instability will help with card prices at the very least. Increased risk will decrease price.
Ugh, modern pro tour has me worried about shadows and temples getting banned.
Affinity seems pretty safe from pro tour results, due to having to win 2 post-board matchups, pretty difficult against decks if they don't ignore artifact hate.
The problem with SFM is not that the card itself is broken. The problem is that it is only really good against other fair decks. Its inclusion would easily lead to a reduced diversity of fair decks, and the meta would descend to "SFM fair decks vs unfair decks vs "fair" decks."
Sure, Affinity, Storm and Dredge seem more degenerate than SFM decks, and I don't disagree. The problem is SFM pushes out more fair interactive decks than linear ones. FFS, did you all buy fifty copies and are pushing for a spike? What is the fascination with this one card being reintroduced into a format with a ton of diversity?
Because it's the consensus least-potentially-harmful and most likely to be unbanned. Also, it's a cool card, as are the equipment that it enables.
The problem with SFM is not that the card itself is broken. The problem is that it is only really good against other fair decks. Its inclusion would easily lead to a reduced diversity of fair decks, and the meta would descend to "SFM fair decks vs unfair decks vs "fair" decks."
Sure, Affinity, Storm and Dredge seem more degenerate than SFM decks, and I don't disagree. The problem is SFM pushes out more fair interactive decks than linear ones. FFS, did you all buy fifty copies and are pushing for a spike? What is the fascination with this one card being reintroduced into a format with a ton of diversity?
I've seen this argument a few times, but isn't it just untrue? Take UW Control, a deck that would likely incorporate SFM to some degree. That deck struggles against strategies like Burn since it can't close the game in a reasonable time frame. SFM solves this issue by giving them a passable clock, especially combined with GotT.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Oh yeah, all that stuff is better than what we got right now. What 4 mana gold card is better than BBE? I can't think of any blue cards in the current meta better than Jace and Preordain. What white card is better than SFM? GSZ has much bigger upsides than the other green creature tutors we have right now. I don't see how you could argue they're worse than what we have.
So you're essentially saying that Black and Colorless should have all the toys? Obviously that's better than what we have now in those colors. It's kind of why it's tough to play competitively without Black or Colorless. P.S. - Snapcaster Mage is better than both of those Blue cards, but then it's also the one that is used to flashback Black spells primarily.
And I will say it again. Bloodbraid Elf would see no play in competitive decks. It would see a lot of play for a while because players like new toys, but once they realize that their toys gets smushed by Shadow and E Tron, they'd either keep playing and losing or adapt, switching decks. If you want an analogy, Bloodbraid Elf would see the same play as Sword of the Meek both post-ban and beyond.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Oh yeah, all that stuff is better than what we got right now. What 4 mana gold card is better than BBE? I can't think of any blue cards in the current meta better than Jace and Preordain. What white card is better than SFM? GSZ has much bigger upsides than the other green creature tutors we have right now. I don't see how you could argue they're worse than what we have.
I think these comparisons are a little off base. I agree that BBE, Jace, Preordain, GSZ and SFM should stay on the ban list ( although Ithink SFM is probably the safest unban on the entire list), but I really don't agree with your reasoning.
Is SFM better than Tarmogoyf? How about Snapcaster Mage? Snaps and SFM are probably about on equal terms of power level. As for Preordain? Is that better than Ancient Stirrings? Is it better than Traverse the Ulvenwald? Parallels between Jace and Nahiri could also be drawn, both being 4 drop walkers that protect themselves and end the game in a matter of a few turns. I think it's better to compare power level cross colors. Arguing that white shouldn't get SFM because white doesn't have a creature as powerful as SFM already, but other colors are allowed that level of power doesn't serve the idea of having color balance.
I still don't think any of those cards need to come off the list, aside front potentially SFM. Even then, I don't really care either way. I'm pretty happy with Modern is currently.
I find it hilarious that you think SFM is more worthy of an unban than BBE. The power level differences in those cards is STAGGERING. And the one with the higher power level is 100% not the multicoloured card
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Modern Decks: UBG Lantern Control GBU BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
I think BBE is more powerful, but higher variance. SFM's most broken lines of play are get a Batterskull or a Sword and invest 2 turns into playing both. BBE is drop it and roll the dice, which is much harder to interact with.
It's interesting that so many think BBE and SFM are too slow to be powerful nowadays. Changing the subject a bit, what cards do people feel are responsible for speeding up the Modern format?
What Fair decks exactly? Look at the top 2 tiers, there are maybe 2 decks in there that are 'fair'.
Spirits
What is your fascination with keeping it banned? Why do you care so much if a group of players that like a card on the banlist are advocating for its return? Isn't it reasonable for the people who have the card rotting in their binder to advocate for its return when opponents regularly pack even more powerful cards? I mean I'm just sitting over here with my SFM in my binder, and you're casting Death's Shadow, Karn Liberated and reanimating multiple Prized Amalgams before I can even get a batterskull into play! Not to mention that against the top decks you'll run into Thoughtseize, Kolaghan's Command, Fatal Push, Lightning bolt, etc.
Once you put some thought into how it's real lines of play interact with other decks (or you know, test the card) it's hard to see it as worthy of a ban. Wanting SFM unbanned is simply consistent with my other views - such as no cards presently need to be banned.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I believe said tournament-only ban or unban would shake up the format enough to get people to want to watch without making a portion of the playerbase cry about something being banned or unbanned. And if after the PT they decide the change is a good one, then they make it official.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Are you saying that [cards]Bloodbraid Elf, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Preordain, Stoneforge Mystic, and Green Sun's Zenith[cards] are way more busted than anything that's going on in the current Modern? I can see you saying this about some of these, but all? Maybe Preordain is much better than a turn 3 B, 8/8. I don't agree, but I get that. Is Bloodbraid Elf better than a turn 3 B, 8/8? I do not even like the card much, but I have to admit that it's pretty damn harmless and I trust my instinct to know if some Pro is going to "break" Bloodbraid Elf.
How does a Pro break Stoneforge Mystic in a way that we don't already know? We know the Swords, we know Batterskull. Maybe they put in Elbrus, the Binding Blade? I realize Pros can get a lot done in a shorter time than most people, but I honestly don't see what's so secret about these cards that the community hasn't always thought through. Remember, Wizards previously thought that Sword of the Meek would give Lantern Control a better win-con?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)A 'shake-up unban' should have the opposite effect to a 'shake-up ban', and therefore be undesirable to WotC.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
This is a good point. The bottom line is selling Standard cards (which equates to packs that someone has to open), not a format that makes them no money, outside of GPs and other events.
Unbanning Bloodbraid Elf, a card that would see no competitive play, just doesn't help sell Standard cards.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Spirits
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
As said above, that is why they have Draft. Not to mention that WotC (or at least MaRo) has mentioned before that the PT is NOT the Promotional Tour, but the Professional Tour. At the very least at the PT's core it suppose to be (at least from what they tell us) about a big fancy tournament for the best players in the game. That they get to showcase new cards is just icing on the cake.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
- "New Eldrazi creatures would be cool with Eye and Temple!"
- Remove Modern PT
- Change block/set structure
- Remove core sets
- Heavily push cards/characters for sake of story
- Reduce impact of spells and answers
- Change rotation timing
- Change rotation timing back
- Double timing of ban announcement
- Unprecedented Standard bannings (5 cards across 3 announcements in 6 months)
- Unprecedented emergency Standard ban 2 days after "all clear"
- Roll back speed of ban announcements
- Bring back core sets
- Remove FNM promos
- Remove and obfuscate MTGO data
- Bring back Modern PT
Did I forget anything?
Now, it seems they have also taken some steps in the right direction, like with the formation of the Play Design team, but confidence in Wizards' ability to create and manage their own game seems to be at an all time low. What this seems to mean for at least the next year or two, is we have to slosh through lots and lots of more mistakes, walk-backs, and strange decisions before things smooth themselves out. The past few years seem like a truly awful time to be a Magic player, which is a shame to have things so bad after the explosive awesomeness that was the previous several years (which personally brought me back to the game after 17 years in Summer 2014).
The result of them screwing up Standard for two+ years has meant Modern has been left out to rot (no unbans or support from new cards). Which wouldn't be so bad if they didn't keep printing broken things that we don't have answers for. Now with the replacement of the PT, we're right back to being under the microscope and will likely go back to excessive and unnecessary bans in order to artificially shake up their precious Pro Tour.
Wizards has a LOT of problems, most of which are self-inflicted. And their solutions seem highly questionable. It's extremely worrisome for someone who has literally thousands of dollars tied up in the game.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
We're blundering from change to change looking for the best way for MTG to function. Seems kinda blundering when you're in it, but overall the game-play certainly doesn't seem (to me) to be getting worse. If anything, the game-play is as strong or stronger than it has ever been.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Oh yeah, all that stuff is better than what we got right now. What 4 mana gold card is better than BBE? I can't think of any blue cards in the current meta better than Jace and Preordain. What white card is better than SFM? GSZ has much bigger upsides than the other green creature tutors we have right now. I don't see how you could argue they're worse than what we have.
I think WotC might have actually been stoned for the last couple of years.
In the yard: RUG Delver, Kiki-Chord, Grixis Twin, Mardu Control, Smallpox, Jeskai Control, Jeskai Delver, Assault Loam, Elves, Deathcloud, Eggs, Storm
Serum vs Thoughtseize or Preordain vs Thoughtseize?
Spirits
Affinity seems pretty safe from pro tour results, due to having to win 2 post-board matchups, pretty difficult against decks if they don't ignore artifact hate.
Because it's the consensus least-potentially-harmful and most likely to be unbanned. Also, it's a cool card, as are the equipment that it enables.
Right, Preordain would just replace Serum Visions in decks that run it.
decks playing:
none
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
So you're essentially saying that Black and Colorless should have all the toys? Obviously that's better than what we have now in those colors. It's kind of why it's tough to play competitively without Black or Colorless. P.S. - Snapcaster Mage is better than both of those Blue cards, but then it's also the one that is used to flashback Black spells primarily.
And I will say it again. Bloodbraid Elf would see no play in competitive decks. It would see a lot of play for a while because players like new toys, but once they realize that their toys gets smushed by Shadow and E Tron, they'd either keep playing and losing or adapt, switching decks. If you want an analogy, Bloodbraid Elf would see the same play as Sword of the Meek both post-ban and beyond.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I think these comparisons are a little off base. I agree that BBE, Jace, Preordain, GSZ and SFM should stay on the ban list ( although Ithink SFM is probably the safest unban on the entire list), but I really don't agree with your reasoning.
Is SFM better than Tarmogoyf? How about Snapcaster Mage? Snaps and SFM are probably about on equal terms of power level. As for Preordain? Is that better than Ancient Stirrings? Is it better than Traverse the Ulvenwald? Parallels between Jace and Nahiri could also be drawn, both being 4 drop walkers that protect themselves and end the game in a matter of a few turns. I think it's better to compare power level cross colors. Arguing that white shouldn't get SFM because white doesn't have a creature as powerful as SFM already, but other colors are allowed that level of power doesn't serve the idea of having color balance.
I still don't think any of those cards need to come off the list, aside front potentially SFM. Even then, I don't really care either way. I'm pretty happy with Modern is currently.
Modern Decks:
UBG Lantern Control GBU
BRG Bridge-Vine GRB
Commander Decks
UBG Muldrotha, Value Elemental GBU
BRG Windgrace Real-Estate Ltd. GRB
#PayThePros
Goblin Guide?
Street Wraith?
Eldrazi Temple?
Chord of Calling?