So do people want more mid range decks being good in modern? Still a little muddy on what people are looking for given claims of interaction.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Twin actually did kill diversity. There were zero URx decks besides twin, and a twin unban with a storm ban would lead to zero URx decks besides twin, as opposed to our current jeskai flash/grixis shadow/storm existence. Just a quick reminder that there are decks that beat storm, like those other two URx builds. Again, just because storm beats someone's preferred deck does not make storm a juggernaut. I maintain that its low price point is the main reason storm is very popular, and when you have a significant portion of the players joining modern to play a cheap, good deck, that high play volume will lead to more high results.
Interaction can be quite vague when people try to use it as problem this format has. I'll say this much, there are layers to interaction, but a lot of time it seems people are talking reactive, non-creature interaction (counterspells, removal, answers like graveyard or land hate ect.)
While I will agree battlefield interaction is another common one people don't talk about (attackers, blockers, and when choosing not to is beneficial). Yet this is just often ignored. Someone mentioning this form of interaction as weakpoint of modern pros from watching the Cincinatti SCG.
Still, there is a trend that counterspells, prison effects (most recently Chalice, Bridge being an earlier one) and the likes are unpopular, most people don't want to adapt to play around them.
This lack of wanting to adapt might account for why Twin and midrange players (Jund?) are all ruffled up.
Twin actually did kill diversity. There were zero URx decks besides twin, and a twin unban with a storm ban would lead to zero URx decks besides twin, as opposed to our current jeskai flash/grixis shadow/storm existence. Just a quick reminder that there are decks that beat storm, like those other two URx builds. Again, just because storm beats someone's preferred deck does not make storm a juggernaut. I maintain that its low price point is the main reason storm is very popular, and when you have a significant portion of the players joining modern to play a cheap, good deck, that high play volume will lead to more high results.
Well this is just not true. We had Jeskai control (the more classic hard control deck as opposed to tempo style we have today), various flavors of delver, storm existed (in it's old school ascension style), grixis control, and rug scapeshift were all around. Even blue moon popped up from time to time.
1. What new or old deck do people want to see make it in the top?
2. What card or cards can make this happen?
3. Do existing banned cards allow this deck to function?
4. Would a fixed version of those cards solve the number 2 question?
5. Is the original the only way to enable that deck?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Twin actually did kill diversity. There were zero URx decks besides twin, and a twin unban with a storm ban would lead to zero URx decks besides twin, as opposed to our current jeskai flash/grixis shadow/storm existence. Just a quick reminder that there are decks that beat storm, like those other two URx builds. Again, just because storm beats someone's preferred deck does not make storm a juggernaut. I maintain that its low price point is the main reason storm is very popular, and when you have a significant portion of the players joining modern to play a cheap, good deck, that high play volume will lead to more high results.
Well this is just not true. We had Jeskai control (the more classic hard control deck as opposed to tempo style we have today), various flavors of delver, storm existed (in it's old school ascension style), grixis control, and rug scapeshift were all around. Even blue moon popped up from time to time.
thank you for correcting him. You beat me to it. Twin was good, it was no monster.
I have to say that WOTC approach to the format would have to change in order for any card to be unbanned.
Right now Stoneforge Mystic, BBE, Jace and Splinter Twin all present conflicts with their last stated goals for Modern.
BBE puts the bar too high for Standard to make a spalsh in Modern. Can you envision such a broken 4 drop in Red and Green colors to make BBE questionable? I certainly don't, and i think Bloodbraid Elf would still be the best 4 drop creature this format can offer(Better than TKS even). Standard midrange cards would have a harder time making it into Modern if BBE returns.
Jace is pretty much the same, it's not broken in the current format, but you bet your money there won't be a better PW in Blue than Jace in a very long time.
Splinter Twin kills diversity and it would clearly make it to the top tier of the format overnight. This unban would be a "we want Twin to be the boogeyman of the format and we are ok with it being the best deck", doesn't seem likely considering there is no clear boogeyman in the current metagame and when there is one, it rapidly rotates to another one. This card is banned for the next couple of years AT LEAST.
Then there is Stoneforge Mystic. I'm willing to believe this card wouldn't break Modern and it would make the format even more interesting since no abusrd CoCo decks should abuse it. My problem with this card is, what decks are you targeting by unbanning this? Abzan seems just fine to be honest, it's another good option among good options. Vial decks are certainly not struggling, just look at the last SCG top 8.
Basically my point is, if they start making unbans(and the cards i listed above are pretty much the only ones you can consider right now), their vision of what they want for the format would have to change drastically. I'm still processing why they said they would look to unban a card.
Regarding Storm: As KTK said, the only ones who know if this deck violates the T4 rule is WOTC, so don't give much thought to this until the PT, where we will see how many Pros actually think the deck is utterly broken as some people say, or it's just a good Tier 1 amongst others. If the deck indeed breaks the T4 rule, i expect Grapeshot to be banned so this broken mechanic doesn't cause more problems.
Interaction can be quite vague when people try to use it as problem this format has. I'll say this much, there are layers to interaction, but a lot of time it seems people are talking reactive, non-creature interaction (counterspells, removal, answers like graveyard or land hate ect.)
While I will agree battlefield interaction is another common one people don't talk about (attackers, blockers, and when choosing not to is beneficial). Yet this is just often ignored. Someone mentioning this form of interaction as weakpoint of modern pros from watching the Cincinatti SCG.
Still, there is a trend that counterspells, prison effects (most recently Chalice, Bridge being an earlier one) and the likes are unpopular, most people don't want to adapt to play around them.
This lack of wanting to adapt might account for why Twin and midrange players (Jund?) are all ruffled up.
While a lot of Twin players are still vocal and angry I haven't seen anyone who I recognize as a Jund player complaining about the metagame on here for a long, long, time - From what I'm seeing that's mainly coming from people fed up of the current metagame and preferred an older metagame where Jund was present. I hate the rhetoric that Jund players are whining about the format. For the most part, Jund players are either building interesting Jund builds or playing Death's Shadow builds. Or is everyone who wants BBE unbanned a salty "Jund player" now?
I don't think that. I see a lot of people wanting there to be a good midrange, but being vague on what that is. That plus not being to see people's banners/decks, due to most of my posts being on mobile, means I don't have that info to work with.
Personally, wouldn't mind seeing BBE given a chance. I'm mostly puzzled at what people want from a good midrange deck, and what possible motivation is behind it. Jund being one of the more popular ones is the reason I thought some people complaining being former Jund players.
BBE puts the bar too high for Standard to make a spalsh in Modern. Can you envision such a broken 4 drop in Red and Green colors to make BBE questionable? I certainly don't, and i think Bloodbraid Elf would still be the best 4 drop creature this format can offer(Better than TKS even). Standard midrange cards would have a harder time making it into Modern if BBE returns.
4 Drops have a hard time in Modern because they are 4 drops. Not because some false double standard argument. The best 4 drop this format has is unquestionably Cryptic Command. Bloodbraid Elf is one of the few cards that can compete against such a monster which is why most people propose for it's unbanning.
Well my reason for bringing up chalice is that it is usually played to counter 1 cmc spells and it usually stops those spells indefinitely by turn 2. However if instead of chalice tron only had MM thy would have to be smarter with how to play and bait removal and think more critically on what to counter to save their creatures. Bc From what i know chalice is mainly there to stop removal.
The fact that it can be played turn 0 doesnt mean much to me bc when a player turn 1 thoughtseizes it is pretty back breaking for some decks and I have seen turn 1 thougtseizes really hinder some decks during a game.
So why not have a way to answer. And it would be nice is both players did have MM that way they can both have the opportunity to say "hmm maybe i should use it now.."
I think that MM would actually be helpful bc if we can ALL run it i dont see why it is so powerful.
I think cards like thoughtseize and path are far more powerful because only decks in those colors can run them.
But thats just a speculation and opinion. And i will add i am not a tournament player im just a casual player but i play by modern rules and keep up with tournaments and stuff so maybe my opinion is a little on the uneducated side but i think what i am saying has some merit and truth to it
I am okay with unbanning a card if the best argument is that newer standard cards might not ever best it. People complain about TKS all the time for reasons I fail to understand in a format with Vendilion Clique.
I agree with LEH in that many of these opinions are just over what type of deck is "supposed" to be the best in the format, a fast aggro deck, powerful ramp, linear combo, or grindy midrange. Our limited data hints that no deck is dominant in terms of meta %. I hate jund, and would prefer to see it gone completely but am okay with just not running into it twice per FNM. I get that some people feel that way about storm, but hell six months ago people were calling for shadow bans until we all adjusted. Perhaps more people need to stop complaining and start adjusting.
BBE puts the bar too high for Standard to make a spalsh in Modern. Can you envision such a broken 4 drop in Red and Green colors to make BBE questionable? I certainly don't, and i think Bloodbraid Elf would still be the best 4 drop creature this format can offer(Better than TKS even). Standard midrange cards would have a harder time making it into Modern if BBE returns.
4 Drops have a hard time in Modern because they are 4 drops. Not because some false double standard argument. The best 4 drop this format has is unquestionably Cryptic Command. Bloodbraid Elf is one of the few cards that can compete against such a monster which is why most people propose for it's unbanning.
It's not about what you want or any player here wants, it's about what WOTC wants and it has always been that way.
Also, i said Bloodbraid Elf would be the best 4-drop CREATURE in Modern, which Cryptic Command does not qualify for. If you want to talk about general 4 Drops in Modern, i have TKS and Collected Company very well above Command and it's not even close. The gap between CoCo and TKS is close because both can be accelerated but that's trivial in this arguement.
Why do people always feel the need to insult "whiny jund players?" Between here, reddit and Facebook, I don't see them crying for unbans, meta changes or anything to that magnitude
They're either
Jamming Jund
shoving in Blood Moon and Rabble Master
Playing Junk
Playing Shadow
or moved to other decks completely
I certainly don't like seeing jund dropping to tier 3, but it is what it is. The deck isn't really playable, but there's certainly people happy enough to shove a side event result in my face, or allude to Tyler Lutes deck which made top 8 not too long ago. Unless the new Humans deck promotes creature aggro, Jund is a bad deck held down by Eldrazi Tron and ramp combo.
I've been playing Jeskai Geist, mono white DnT and Eldrazi Tron. Just bought into affinity again.
Instead of people writing out the same arguments going on a year now, find a new deck to play, or just leave, and stop posting an absurd amount of posts and time dedicated to how bad modern has become.
One of moderns inherent issues is that they have cards printed that were not designed to interact with new ideas they had later. Doubling season, while not heavily played in modern, was designed before they released and probably worked on planeswalkers, and that is a relatively harmless example.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Why do people always feel the need to insult "whiny jund players?" Between here, reddit and Facebook, I don't see them crying for unbans, meta changes or anything to that magnitude.
I know I have probably said something like this before, so for that, I'm sorry. I actually believe that the format is pretty good when Jund is Tier 1 or Tier 2. I didn't like it when it had Deathrite Shaman, but other than that, I've never had a problem with goodstuff.dec. I actually enjoyed playing against Jund a lot at the beginning of Modern. I came into Modern having been a UB player moving to UW and battling my archnemesis in Jund. Those matches were very fun and very 50/50. I won't say that play skill was a super major factor in those matches, but it was much, much more so than it is today. Sorry, that's just my personal feeling.
@Colt - I don't necessarily want the format to change all that much, but I feel that unbans of fair cards that don't warp the meta (like Ancestral Vision/Sword of the Meek didn't) should get a "fair" chance. I would love to play these cards that I played in Standard before again. I would love my opponents to play these cards. I'm not sure it would influence the meta all that much, but any change is good in the more "interactive matches" direction. It certainly can't hurt.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I don't see the issue with those numbers. Sure, twin had the highest meta share of urx decks (although I would be willing to bet some of that was because it was an easy choice. Not an easy deck to play properly, but that if you didn't know what to bring to a given event, twin was a safe choice but that's just conjecture on my part) but clearly there were plenty of ur decks you could play and do well. The jeskai and grixis control had good matchups vs twin and gbx decks of the field at the time, and once twin was banned, they dropped off the map for a long time. The new jeskai is a very different deck (which is totally fine), but right now what do we have for ur? death's shadow, storm, and jeskai. That seems like much worse diversity in ur than during twin's time. I love twin, I'd love to see it come back, but I've accepted that it's not coming back any time soon. I just wish people would a) accept that wizard's reasons were fairly silly, and b) stop pretending that it was not this absurdly busted deck that just steamrolled everything in it's path. It all comes back to twin never getting a good replacement as a play style (although shadow can scratch that itch even if I never found it to my liking) which is why twin fans tend to be pretty vocal in their complaints.
That said, I definitely would like to see some unbans (BBE, Jace, SFM) but Gustavito makes a good point that I haven't thought of before: that WOTC doesn't want the power level to reach a point that standard cards can't break in to modern. I don't agree with this as a thought process, and as a format gets older and older, it's just the nature that newer cards have a harder time breaking in, but I at least can see the reasoning there, even if I disagree with it. WOTC doesn't look at modern like a competitive format, they look it as a format to market and want to make money off of it, otherwise there's not much incentive to keep it alive.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Why do people always feel the need to insult "whiny jund players?" Between here, reddit and Facebook, I don't see them crying for unbans, meta changes or anything to that magnitude.
I know I have probably said something like this before, so for that, I'm sorry. I actually believe that the format is pretty good when Jund is Tier 1 or Tier 2. I didn't like it when it had Deathrite Shaman, but other than that, I've never had a problem with goodstuff.dec. I actually enjoyed playing against Jund a lot at the beginning of Modern. I came into Modern having been a UB player moving to UW and battling my archnemesis in Jund. Those matches were very fun and very 50/50. I won't say that play skill was a super major factor in those matches, but it was much, much more so than it is today. Sorry, that's just my personal feeling.
@Colt - I don't necessarily want the format to change all that much, but I feel that unbans of fair cards that don't warp the meta (like Ancestral Vision/Sword of the Meek didn't) should get a "fair" chance. I would love to play these cards that I played in Standard before again. I would love my opponents to play these cards. I'm not sure it would influence the meta all that much, but any change is good in the more "interactive matches" direction. It certainly can't hurt.
Haha, don't worry about that, none of that was directed towards you
I don't always agree with you on things, but you usually bring an interesting perspective on things since you're a combo player st heart and that's perfectly ok. You seem to enjoy the game even if you aren't always 100 percent on board with everything.
I'm definitely sad jund isn't very viable but i have started to come around that you need to be proactive in modern to do well. I can't bring myself to play combo yet but I did etron, affinity and DnT because I don't want to sit there reacting. DNT is just a meta call.
I'm going to a 1k this weekend in an unknown meta and can't decide on whether to go with etron, jeskai or mono taxes
Twin actually did kill diversity. There were zero URx decks besides twin, and a twin unban with a storm ban would lead to zero URx decks besides twin, as opposed to our current jeskai flash/grixis shadow/storm existence.
There were absolutely URx decks while Twin was around, so I don't know where this is coming from. Control decks were a thing, as was Delver, for example. Maybe not Tier 1, but the idea there weren't any is either a lie or a massive mistake on your part.
But if we decide to exclude all Tier 1 decks, I have a question: Did Twin's banning actually improve the situation? No. After its banning (and the removal of Eldrazi Temple), we'd tend to have 0-1 decks that were URx and Tier 1, usually 0. Obviously, if there are zero, that means the banning of Twin decreased their diversity, and if there's one, then it's no better than when Twin was around. And it's worth noting that the decks that did rise up mostly did so due to new cards entering the format. UWR Control got good (for a while), but ascribing that to Twin doesn't make sense because a huge part of its rise was the printing of Nahiri, which wasn't in the format while Twin was.
It's only recently that we've gotten stable, Tier 1 URx decks. Since this happened so long after the Splinter Twin banning (i.e. a whole lot of other things happened to affect the format), it doesn't make much sense to say its banning was the reason for it and that therefore an unban would remove the new decks from the format.
So basically, your argument doesn't hold up at all under scrutiny. Not only is your assertion that there were "zero URx decks besides twin" false, the actual history of the format further provides proof against the idea that any increase in URx diversity should be ascribed to things that occurred well after the Splinter Twin ban.
BBE puts the bar too high for Standard to make a spalsh in Modern. Can you envision such a broken 4 drop in Red and Green colors to make BBE questionable? I certainly don't, and i think Bloodbraid Elf would still be the best 4 drop creature this format can offer(Better than TKS even). Standard midrange cards would have a harder time making it into Modern if BBE returns.
And how many recent 4-drops in Red and Green colors are seeing much play now? I seriously can't think of a one; best is Huntmaster of the Fells but it doesn't see that much play and it was printed back in 2012. You can't say Bloodbraid Elf is keeping all of those cards out when those cards aren't seeing play without Bloodbraid Elf. If we remove the color restriction, I can think of a few 4-drops that see play (Siege Rhino, Kalitas, Olivia) but they're not played that much outside of a few copies except Siege Rhino, which doesn't compete with Bloodbraid Elf because they aren't played in the same deck.
Jace is pretty much the same, it's not broken in the current format, but you bet your money there won't be a better PW in Blue than Jace in a very long time.
Same argument applies: What 4-drop planeswalkers have made a big splash in Modern in the meantime? Jace, Architect of Thought sees a little play, but not much, and that card was printed years ago anyway. New planeswalkers aren't making an impact in Modern as is, so what's the issue with Jace?
Splinter Twin kills diversity and it would clearly make it to the top tier of the format overnight. This unban would be a "we want Twin to be the boogeyman of the format and we are ok with it being the best deck", doesn't seem likely considering there is no clear boogeyman in the current metagame and when there is one, it rapidly rotates to another one. This card is banned for the next couple of years AT LEAST.
As I explained in a previous post, there is very little evidence that Splinter Twin was an actual threat to diversity. But let's suppose the problem is it becoming top tier (despite no one having a problem with it being top tier as consistently as Affinity until after its banning, when people retroactively started claiming it was an issue). The problem is, Splinter Twin has more things to worry about than before. Fatal Push wasn't around when it was legal, nor was Warping Wail. Okay, in fairness, Eldrazi is the only deck that could run Warping Wail, but Warping Wail gives Tron decks that normally would be weak against Twin a considerable edge as it's quite maindeckable.
Then there is Stoneforge Mystic. I'm willing to believe this card wouldn't break Modern and it would make the format even more interesting since no abusrd CoCo decks should abuse it. My problem with this card is, what decks are you targeting by unbanning this? Abzan seems just fine to be honest, it's another good option among good options. Vial decks are certainly not struggling, just look at the last SCG top 8.
If a card isn't too good in the format, it should be unbanned simply on principle.
18MAY2015-18JUL2015:
70 Twin
18 Grixis Control
7 Storm
4 Delver (2 Grixis, 2 RUG)
3 Scapeshift
2 Blue Moon
Do either of you have another source that you think has more data? It seems that what BlueTronFTW said seems to be actually true.
No one will deny Twin's prevalence in numbers. But check which decks were winning. During all of 2015 Delver had half as many wins(!) with fewer decks(!) in number, Grixis Control and Jeskai Control (listed under UWx midrange) did put up decent result between the two, nearly as many top 8 appearances as twin combined.
It wasn't just the "highest meta share". It was that you would have to combine nearly all of the other URx decks during each time period together to get over half the metashare that Twin had. That's not just high, that's absurdly high. If we compare that to the current metagame:
25SEP2017-25OCT2017:
45 Storm
27 Grixis Shadow
16 Jeskai Control
11 Jeskai (UWr) Midrange
6 Jeskai Tempo
6 Blue Moon
3 Scapeshift (RUGx)
3 Twinless Exarch
3 Grixis Control
3 4/5 Color Goodstuff
2 Jeskai Nahiri
2 Patriot Geist
2 Jeskai Cats
1 RUG Aggro
1 Jeskai Aggro
1 UR Control
We have two archetypes that are above 50% of the highest URx deck metashare, whereas this did not happen in the four 2-month intervals that I shared in my previous post.EDIT: For clarity of data, I went through everything that was grouped into "UWx Midrange" and divided it up accordingly, to try to keep the data cleaner. This drops it so that we have one archetype that is above 50% of the highest URx deck metashare, rather than two. Additionally, there are more unique URx decks in the meta (16, as opposed to 8 at the peak in the data I shared above). Thus, banning Twin does seem to have increased the diversity of the format. EDIT: After dividing up the "UWx Midrange" lists, this increases the number from 13 to 16. So either we have better metashare numbers with a more diverse URx metagame, or slightly better metashare numbers with twice the URx metagame. Either way, we have a more diverse metashare and a more diverse URx metagame.
EDIT: @Shockwave07, all of the data I listed was from winning decklists. So it was those decks in the data I presented that were winning. For all of 2015, we have 13 winning Delver lists that were URx, vs. 305 winning (top 8) Twin lists. MTGTop8 does have a small sample of 9-32 lists in the mix, but it seems that sample size is relatively insignificant. I went through and subtracted the 16 Twin lists this applies to (original number that came up was 321).
If you only want to count decks that placed 1st, we have 2 URx Delver lists vs. 72 Twin lists. Where did you get your numbers for your claim about it having half as many wins with fewer decks?
It wasn't just the "highest meta share". It was that you would have to combine nearly all of the other URx decks during each time period together to get over half the metashare that Twin had. That's not just high, that's absurdly high. If we compare that to the current metagame:
25SEP2017-25OCT2017:
45 Storm
32 UWx Midrange (includes Jeskai Control, Midrange, Geist...)
27 Grixis Shadow
17 Jeskai Control
6 Blue Moon
3 Scapeshift (RUGx)
3 Twinless Exarch
3 Grixis Control
3 4/5 Color Goodstuff
2 Jeskai Nahiri
1 RUG Aggro
1 Jeskai Aggro
1 UR Control
We have two archetypes that are above 50% of the highest URx deck metashare, whereas this did not happen in the four 2-month intervals that I shared in my previous post. Additionally, there are more unique URx decks in the meta (13, as opposed to 8 at the peak in the data I shared above). Thus, banning Twin does seem to have increased the diversity of the format.
EDIT: @Shockwave07, all of the data I listed was from winning decklists. So it was those decks in the data I presented that were winning. For all of 2015, we have 13 winning Delver lists that were URx, vs. 305 winning (top 8) Twin lists.
If you only want to count decks that placed 1st, we have 2 URx Delver lists vs. 72 Twin lists.
This is exactly why I never use MTG Top 8 as a reference for anything. Their classifications for decks are so wildly random that it makes categorization almost completely useless. First, "Jeskai Midrange" is listed with (Jeskai Control, Midrange, Geist, etc). Then later, "Jeskai Control" is, for some reason, listed separately. Further down, Jeskai Nahiri is also listed; all basically same deck, except for a handful of cards. Second, how is UR Control different from Blue Moon? Or is there some UR control list NOT running Blood Moon? If so, why in the world are you running those colors? They are terrible without Blood Moon. (Second and a half: could probably lump Twinless Exarch with Blue Moon/UR Control. Basically same deck with 6 cards swapped for different win conditions). Third, why in the world is 4/5-color goodstuff lumped with URx? That's laughable.
Lord Seth hit the nail on the head: "despite no one having a problem with it being top tier as consistently as Affinity until after its banning, when people retroactively started claiming it was an issue"
Nobody had a problem with Twin when it was around, and it was regularly praised as the posterchild of Modern, a staple pillar of the format, and essential for good format health. Kind of like keeping it from being mindlessly overrun by fast linear decks... which is exactly what happened in 2016... and keeping big-mana decks from being overpowering it.... which is exactly what was happening in 2017. But hey, at least you can play 50 different kinds of fast aggro, big mana, and glass canon decks nowadays!
@thnkr That many decklists does not mean that many deck wins. You can click on an Archtype and get a list of events won and when. That said Twin was the most successful URx deck. But given the number and hype, not to surprised. Either way will break down the list you gave above as well.
Edit: Going to have to go through and filter through the Death's Shadow decks... 26 pages and URx and Jund versions combined...
@cfusionpm, I edited my post to pick apart the various versions. You could choose to combine them, in which case when we compare it to the Twin metagame, our current metagame has a more balanced share among the top URx decks, or you could separate them, in which case we currently have a strictly more diverse URx metagame.
@Shockwave07, You may notice those decks are listed with their respective place in the top 8, etc. I actually went and edited my post comparing the current metagame to not include lists that didn't make top 8 (you may see the edit, I pointed it out in bold).
I also already filtered the Death's Shadow decks. I filtered the search to include lists that ran Steam Vents, which helps with that. No need to go through 26 pages of individual lists with the search function.
EDIT:
Nobody had a problem with Twin when it was around, and it was regularly praised as the posterchild of Modern, a staple pillar of the format, and essential for good format health. Kind of like keeping it from being mindlessly overrun by fast linear decks... which is exactly what happened in 2016... and keeping big-mana decks from being overpowering it.... which is exactly what was happening in 2017. But hey, at least you can play 50 different kinds of fast aggro, big mana, and glass canon decks nowadays!
I would disagree that "nobody" had a problem. I was a bit put off by it, expecting to face it about 50 percent of the time in my matches, but that's just my anecdotal evidence and my metagame. As for the "50 different kinds of fast aggro, big mana, and class cannon decks", that seems to be a bit off. You can go and look at the metagame statistics on the left side of the page at MTGTop8. There are currently ~20 "aggro" decks (decks like Jund being included in that), which made up 48% of the metagame, 17 "control" decks, which make up 25% of the metagame - 4% Tron overall, and 26% combo decks. We can compare that to the 2015 metagame, which had the numbers at 50% aggro (so it was actually more aggro then - but you complain about "everything is aggro now"?), 19% control (with Tron at 6%, 33% more than it is now!), and combo at 32%.
I understand that you have your opinions on this issue, but I'm curious at which point you are willing to consider looking at numbers and evidence to ensure those opinions are informed.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
While I will agree battlefield interaction is another common one people don't talk about (attackers, blockers, and when choosing not to is beneficial). Yet this is just often ignored. Someone mentioning this form of interaction as weakpoint of modern pros from watching the Cincinatti SCG.
Still, there is a trend that counterspells, prison effects (most recently Chalice, Bridge being an earlier one) and the likes are unpopular, most people don't want to adapt to play around them.
This lack of wanting to adapt might account for why Twin and midrange players (Jund?) are all ruffled up.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
Well this is just not true. We had Jeskai control (the more classic hard control deck as opposed to tempo style we have today), various flavors of delver, storm existed (in it's old school ascension style), grixis control, and rug scapeshift were all around. Even blue moon popped up from time to time.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
1. What new or old deck do people want to see make it in the top?
2. What card or cards can make this happen?
3. Do existing banned cards allow this deck to function?
4. Would a fixed version of those cards solve the number 2 question?
5. Is the original the only way to enable that deck?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Right now Stoneforge Mystic, BBE, Jace and Splinter Twin all present conflicts with their last stated goals for Modern.
BBE puts the bar too high for Standard to make a spalsh in Modern. Can you envision such a broken 4 drop in Red and Green colors to make BBE questionable? I certainly don't, and i think Bloodbraid Elf would still be the best 4 drop creature this format can offer(Better than TKS even). Standard midrange cards would have a harder time making it into Modern if BBE returns.
Jace is pretty much the same, it's not broken in the current format, but you bet your money there won't be a better PW in Blue than Jace in a very long time.
Splinter Twin kills diversity and it would clearly make it to the top tier of the format overnight. This unban would be a "we want Twin to be the boogeyman of the format and we are ok with it being the best deck", doesn't seem likely considering there is no clear boogeyman in the current metagame and when there is one, it rapidly rotates to another one. This card is banned for the next couple of years AT LEAST.
Then there is Stoneforge Mystic. I'm willing to believe this card wouldn't break Modern and it would make the format even more interesting since no abusrd CoCo decks should abuse it. My problem with this card is, what decks are you targeting by unbanning this? Abzan seems just fine to be honest, it's another good option among good options. Vial decks are certainly not struggling, just look at the last SCG top 8.
Basically my point is, if they start making unbans(and the cards i listed above are pretty much the only ones you can consider right now), their vision of what they want for the format would have to change drastically. I'm still processing why they said they would look to unban a card.
Regarding Storm: As KTK said, the only ones who know if this deck violates the T4 rule is WOTC, so don't give much thought to this until the PT, where we will see how many Pros actually think the deck is utterly broken as some people say, or it's just a good Tier 1 amongst others. If the deck indeed breaks the T4 rule, i expect Grapeshot to be banned so this broken mechanic doesn't cause more problems.
Personally, wouldn't mind seeing BBE given a chance. I'm mostly puzzled at what people want from a good midrange deck, and what possible motivation is behind it. Jund being one of the more popular ones is the reason I thought some people complaining being former Jund players.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
4 Drops have a hard time in Modern because they are 4 drops. Not because some false double standard argument. The best 4 drop this format has is unquestionably Cryptic Command. Bloodbraid Elf is one of the few cards that can compete against such a monster which is why most people propose for it's unbanning.
Well my reason for bringing up chalice is that it is usually played to counter 1 cmc spells and it usually stops those spells indefinitely by turn 2. However if instead of chalice tron only had MM thy would have to be smarter with how to play and bait removal and think more critically on what to counter to save their creatures. Bc From what i know chalice is mainly there to stop removal.
The fact that it can be played turn 0 doesnt mean much to me bc when a player turn 1 thoughtseizes it is pretty back breaking for some decks and I have seen turn 1 thougtseizes really hinder some decks during a game.
So why not have a way to answer. And it would be nice is both players did have MM that way they can both have the opportunity to say "hmm maybe i should use it now.."
I think that MM would actually be helpful bc if we can ALL run it i dont see why it is so powerful.
I think cards like thoughtseize and path are far more powerful because only decks in those colors can run them.
But thats just a speculation and opinion. And i will add i am not a tournament player im just a casual player but i play by modern rules and keep up with tournaments and stuff so maybe my opinion is a little on the uneducated side but i think what i am saying has some merit and truth to it
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
I agree with LEH in that many of these opinions are just over what type of deck is "supposed" to be the best in the format, a fast aggro deck, powerful ramp, linear combo, or grindy midrange. Our limited data hints that no deck is dominant in terms of meta %. I hate jund, and would prefer to see it gone completely but am okay with just not running into it twice per FNM. I get that some people feel that way about storm, but hell six months ago people were calling for shadow bans until we all adjusted. Perhaps more people need to stop complaining and start adjusting.
It's not about what you want or any player here wants, it's about what WOTC wants and it has always been that way.
Also, i said Bloodbraid Elf would be the best 4-drop CREATURE in Modern, which Cryptic Command does not qualify for. If you want to talk about general 4 Drops in Modern, i have TKS and Collected Company very well above Command and it's not even close. The gap between CoCo and TKS is close because both can be accelerated but that's trivial in this arguement.
They're either
Jamming Jund
shoving in Blood Moon and Rabble Master
Playing Junk
Playing Shadow
or moved to other decks completely
I certainly don't like seeing jund dropping to tier 3, but it is what it is. The deck isn't really playable, but there's certainly people happy enough to shove a side event result in my face, or allude to Tyler Lutes deck which made top 8 not too long ago. Unless the new Humans deck promotes creature aggro, Jund is a bad deck held down by Eldrazi Tron and ramp combo.
I've been playing Jeskai Geist, mono white DnT and Eldrazi Tron. Just bought into affinity again.
Instead of people writing out the same arguments going on a year now, find a new deck to play, or just leave, and stop posting an absurd amount of posts and time dedicated to how bad modern has become.
I normally get mine from MTGTop8, as it includes more data overall it seems. Here is what I've got (from most recent and going backwards):
18NOV2015-18JAN2016:
63 Twin
13 Grixis Control
6 RUG Scapeshift
4 Storm
1 BtL Scapeshift
1 Jeskai Control
1 Grixis Delver
1 Blue Moon
18SEP2015-18NOV2015:
25 Twin
10 Scapeshift
7 Grixis Control
3 Storm
2 Delver (1 Grixis, 1 RUG)
1 Jeskai Control
18JUL2015-18SEP2015:
59 Twin
21 Grixis Control
14 Scapeshift
3 Storm
2 Delver (1 Grixis, 1 UR)
18MAY2015-18JUL2015:
70 Twin
18 Grixis Control
7 Storm
4 Delver (2 Grixis, 2 RUG)
3 Scapeshift
2 Blue Moon
Do either of you have another source that you think has more data? It seems that what BlueTronFTW said seems to be actually true.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I know I have probably said something like this before, so for that, I'm sorry. I actually believe that the format is pretty good when Jund is Tier 1 or Tier 2. I didn't like it when it had Deathrite Shaman, but other than that, I've never had a problem with goodstuff.dec. I actually enjoyed playing against Jund a lot at the beginning of Modern. I came into Modern having been a UB player moving to UW and battling my archnemesis in Jund. Those matches were very fun and very 50/50. I won't say that play skill was a super major factor in those matches, but it was much, much more so than it is today. Sorry, that's just my personal feeling.
@Colt - I don't necessarily want the format to change all that much, but I feel that unbans of fair cards that don't warp the meta (like Ancestral Vision/Sword of the Meek didn't) should get a "fair" chance. I would love to play these cards that I played in Standard before again. I would love my opponents to play these cards. I'm not sure it would influence the meta all that much, but any change is good in the more "interactive matches" direction. It certainly can't hurt.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I don't see the issue with those numbers. Sure, twin had the highest meta share of urx decks (although I would be willing to bet some of that was because it was an easy choice. Not an easy deck to play properly, but that if you didn't know what to bring to a given event, twin was a safe choice but that's just conjecture on my part) but clearly there were plenty of ur decks you could play and do well. The jeskai and grixis control had good matchups vs twin and gbx decks of the field at the time, and once twin was banned, they dropped off the map for a long time. The new jeskai is a very different deck (which is totally fine), but right now what do we have for ur? death's shadow, storm, and jeskai. That seems like much worse diversity in ur than during twin's time. I love twin, I'd love to see it come back, but I've accepted that it's not coming back any time soon. I just wish people would a) accept that wizard's reasons were fairly silly, and b) stop pretending that it was not this absurdly busted deck that just steamrolled everything in it's path. It all comes back to twin never getting a good replacement as a play style (although shadow can scratch that itch even if I never found it to my liking) which is why twin fans tend to be pretty vocal in their complaints.
That said, I definitely would like to see some unbans (BBE, Jace, SFM) but Gustavito makes a good point that I haven't thought of before: that WOTC doesn't want the power level to reach a point that standard cards can't break in to modern. I don't agree with this as a thought process, and as a format gets older and older, it's just the nature that newer cards have a harder time breaking in, but I at least can see the reasoning there, even if I disagree with it. WOTC doesn't look at modern like a competitive format, they look it as a format to market and want to make money off of it, otherwise there's not much incentive to keep it alive.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Haha, don't worry about that, none of that was directed towards you
I don't always agree with you on things, but you usually bring an interesting perspective on things since you're a combo player st heart and that's perfectly ok. You seem to enjoy the game even if you aren't always 100 percent on board with everything.
I'm definitely sad jund isn't very viable but i have started to come around that you need to be proactive in modern to do well. I can't bring myself to play combo yet but I did etron, affinity and DnT because I don't want to sit there reacting. DNT is just a meta call.
I'm going to a 1k this weekend in an unknown meta and can't decide on whether to go with etron, jeskai or mono taxes
But if we decide to exclude all Tier 1 decks, I have a question: Did Twin's banning actually improve the situation? No. After its banning (and the removal of Eldrazi Temple), we'd tend to have 0-1 decks that were URx and Tier 1, usually 0. Obviously, if there are zero, that means the banning of Twin decreased their diversity, and if there's one, then it's no better than when Twin was around. And it's worth noting that the decks that did rise up mostly did so due to new cards entering the format. UWR Control got good (for a while), but ascribing that to Twin doesn't make sense because a huge part of its rise was the printing of Nahiri, which wasn't in the format while Twin was.
It's only recently that we've gotten stable, Tier 1 URx decks. Since this happened so long after the Splinter Twin banning (i.e. a whole lot of other things happened to affect the format), it doesn't make much sense to say its banning was the reason for it and that therefore an unban would remove the new decks from the format.
So basically, your argument doesn't hold up at all under scrutiny. Not only is your assertion that there were "zero URx decks besides twin" false, the actual history of the format further provides proof against the idea that any increase in URx diversity should be ascribed to things that occurred well after the Splinter Twin ban.
Same argument applies: What 4-drop planeswalkers have made a big splash in Modern in the meantime? Jace, Architect of Thought sees a little play, but not much, and that card was printed years ago anyway. New planeswalkers aren't making an impact in Modern as is, so what's the issue with Jace?
As I explained in a previous post, there is very little evidence that Splinter Twin was an actual threat to diversity. But let's suppose the problem is it becoming top tier (despite no one having a problem with it being top tier as consistently as Affinity until after its banning, when people retroactively started claiming it was an issue). The problem is, Splinter Twin has more things to worry about than before. Fatal Push wasn't around when it was legal, nor was Warping Wail. Okay, in fairness, Eldrazi is the only deck that could run Warping Wail, but Warping Wail gives Tron decks that normally would be weak against Twin a considerable edge as it's quite maindeckable.
If a card isn't too good in the format, it should be unbanned simply on principle.
Not as convincing when looked at this way.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
25SEP2017-25OCT2017:
45 Storm
27 Grixis Shadow
16 Jeskai Control
11 Jeskai (UWr) Midrange
6 Jeskai Tempo
6 Blue Moon
3 Scapeshift (RUGx)
3 Twinless Exarch
3 Grixis Control
3 4/5 Color Goodstuff
2 Jeskai Nahiri
2 Patriot Geist
2 Jeskai Cats
1 RUG Aggro
1 Jeskai Aggro
1 UR Control
We have two archetypes that are above 50% of the highest URx deck metashare, whereas this did not happen in the four 2-month intervals that I shared in my previous post.EDIT: For clarity of data, I went through everything that was grouped into "UWx Midrange" and divided it up accordingly, to try to keep the data cleaner. This drops it so that we have one archetype that is above 50% of the highest URx deck metashare, rather than two. Additionally, there are more unique URx decks in the meta (16, as opposed to 8 at the peak in the data I shared above). Thus, banning Twin does seem to have increased the diversity of the format. EDIT: After dividing up the "UWx Midrange" lists, this increases the number from 13 to 16. So either we have better metashare numbers with a more diverse URx metagame, or slightly better metashare numbers with twice the URx metagame. Either way, we have a more diverse metashare and a more diverse URx metagame.EDIT: @Shockwave07, all of the data I listed was from winning decklists. So it was those decks in the data I presented that were winning. For all of 2015, we have 13 winning Delver lists that were URx, vs. 305 winning (top 8) Twin lists. MTGTop8 does have a small sample of 9-32 lists in the mix, but it seems that sample size is relatively insignificant. I went through and subtracted the 16 Twin lists this applies to (original number that came up was 321).
If you only want to count decks that placed 1st, we have 2 URx Delver lists vs. 72 Twin lists. Where did you get your numbers for your claim about it having half as many wins with fewer decks?
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
This is exactly why I never use MTG Top 8 as a reference for anything. Their classifications for decks are so wildly random that it makes categorization almost completely useless. First, "Jeskai Midrange" is listed with (Jeskai Control, Midrange, Geist, etc). Then later, "Jeskai Control" is, for some reason, listed separately. Further down, Jeskai Nahiri is also listed; all basically same deck, except for a handful of cards. Second, how is UR Control different from Blue Moon? Or is there some UR control list NOT running Blood Moon? If so, why in the world are you running those colors? They are terrible without Blood Moon. (Second and a half: could probably lump Twinless Exarch with Blue Moon/UR Control. Basically same deck with 6 cards swapped for different win conditions). Third, why in the world is 4/5-color goodstuff lumped with URx? That's laughable.
Lord Seth hit the nail on the head: "despite no one having a problem with it being top tier as consistently as Affinity until after its banning, when people retroactively started claiming it was an issue"
Nobody had a problem with Twin when it was around, and it was regularly praised as the posterchild of Modern, a staple pillar of the format, and essential for good format health. Kind of like keeping it from being mindlessly overrun by fast linear decks... which is exactly what happened in 2016... and keeping big-mana decks from being overpowering it.... which is exactly what was happening in 2017. But hey, at least you can play 50 different kinds of fast aggro, big mana, and glass canon decks nowadays!
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Edit: Going to have to go through and filter through the Death's Shadow decks... 26 pages and URx and Jund versions combined...
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the sigpic.
Spider-Man Mafia 3 (Off-Site: NGA)
Metroid Mafia (Off-Site: Mafia Universe)
@Shockwave07, You may notice those decks are listed with their respective place in the top 8, etc. I actually went and edited my post comparing the current metagame to not include lists that didn't make top 8 (you may see the edit, I pointed it out in bold).
I also already filtered the Death's Shadow decks. I filtered the search to include lists that ran Steam Vents, which helps with that. No need to go through 26 pages of individual lists with the search function.
EDIT:
I would disagree that "nobody" had a problem. I was a bit put off by it, expecting to face it about 50 percent of the time in my matches, but that's just my anecdotal evidence and my metagame. As for the "50 different kinds of fast aggro, big mana, and class cannon decks", that seems to be a bit off. You can go and look at the metagame statistics on the left side of the page at MTGTop8. There are currently ~20 "aggro" decks (decks like Jund being included in that), which made up 48% of the metagame, 17 "control" decks, which make up 25% of the metagame - 4% Tron overall, and 26% combo decks. We can compare that to the 2015 metagame, which had the numbers at 50% aggro (so it was actually more aggro then - but you complain about "everything is aggro now"?), 19% control (with Tron at 6%, 33% more than it is now!), and combo at 32%.
I understand that you have your opinions on this issue, but I'm curious at which point you are willing to consider looking at numbers and evidence to ensure those opinions are informed.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan