IMO, tempo has really struggled in modern because most of the good tempo cards (force, daze, wasteland, brainstorm, nimble mongoose, cabal therapy, etc) that are defining in legacy aren't legal in modern.
Grixis shadow has started to popup as a similar deck, but IMO, I agree that tempo has been pretty absent in modern for a while.
@ccc1522, I am familiar with chess strategy. I'm an instructor for the local club. There are plenty of possible openings, but not 10,000 viable openings. The core strategies all revolve around a few core main principles (developing pieces in the opening, gaining control of the center of the board, being aware of piece value in trades, tempo, adequate protection of the king, tactics - which include pins, skewers, forks, etc., and so on). There is even a very key difference between white and black, as the pieces are not located on the board the same way. I am a bit into chess already - I teach chess, and that is part of why I have the opinion I do.
@Ym1r, That one sentence was key, as there were only a few, and most of them I agreed with. That one seemed to be coming from hyperbole, so I asked to clarify. Also, in Magic, we are, to some degree, equipped with the same tools. There is the question of how well each player can afford cards, but I'm guessing that's not the scope of the conversation here. As I pointed out in my response to ccc1522, chess does actually have variance in it's starting position, in that the black pieces are set up differently than the white pieces. As far as when we talk about the tools that each player has in Magic, time is a tool, too. Cards in each players decks are tools. If a deck denies an opponent the use of time, by simply working to complete a winning gamestate before the opponent can make use of their turns to cast cards or play additional lands, then they are directly denying a tool that a deck might need to accomplish its goal. They aren't ignoring it, they are denying it, even if the pilot is not aware of this concept. With cards like Chalice, Moon, Bridge, etc., they are doing the same. They are looking to pre-emptively deny the opponent necessary tools.
I think wizards is fairly loose on what defines modern as being healthy and they probably will keep loosening that definition for PR reasons as time goes on.
Also, I'm still a believer that wizards will likely try a new format as a reset button eventually.
If WOTC phases out modern in favor of a newer format, say starting at original Innistrad or Zendikar, that will have serious economic implications, and I'm not sure they want to do that. Perhaps more importantly, though, WOTC kinda tried this at the start of this year when they held Frontier side events at Grand Prix for the first what, three or four months of 2017? If people were knocking down the door for Frontier, we probably would have already gotten the announcement that they were going to introduce such events.
Frontier was a grass root movement that had a start point no one fully liked. Wizards will probably push top down. I'm also watching what they are reprinting in upcoming products and they are favoring more recent cards over older ones. The only exception has been masters products.
There is zero doubt in my mind they are going to do it. It's just when that no one knows.
Of course they'll do it eventually. It's just not very meaningful for our current discussion. You can keep repeating this and if Wizards made a new format ten years down the road, you would still be right. It just doesn't, and shouldn't, affect how we talk about Modern today.
Re: Storm and Twin
Not comparable. Twin was banned for diversity violations. Storm, if banned under the criterion people talk about, would be a T4 rule violator. There is no inconsistency between Storm's legality and Twin's ban. Amulet Bloom is a better comparison but unless someone has hard numbers, no one should entertain that comparison either.
I think wizards is fairly loose on what defines modern as being healthy and they probably will keep loosening that definition for PR reasons as time goes on.
Also, I'm still a believer that wizards will likely try a new format as a reset button eventually.
If WOTC phases out modern in favor of a newer format, say starting at original Innistrad or Zendikar, that will have serious economic implications, and I'm not sure they want to do that. Perhaps more importantly, though, WOTC kinda tried this at the start of this year when they held Frontier side events at Grand Prix for the first what, three or four months of 2017? If people were knocking down the door for Frontier, we probably would have already gotten the announcement that they were going to introduce such events.
Frontier was a grass root movement that had a start point no one fully liked. Wizards will probably push top down. I'm also watching what they are reprinting in upcoming products and they are favoring more recent cards over older ones. The only exception has been masters products.
There is zero doubt in my mind they are going to do it. It's just when that no one knows.
Of course they'll do it eventually. It's just not very meaningful for our current discussion. You can keep repeating this and if Wizards made a new format ten years down the road, you would still be right. It just doesn't, and shouldn't, affect how we talk about Modern today.
Re: Storm and Twin
Not comparable. Twin was banned for diversity violations. Storm, if banned under the criterion people talk about, would be a T4 rule violator. There is no inconsistency between Storm's legality and Twin's ban. Amulet Bloom is a better comparison but unless someone has hard numbers, no one should entertain that comparison either.
My concern is more about wizards definition of a healthy format than anything else. I do think that there is a disconnect between the community definition of what constitutes a healthy format vs what wizards thinks is a healthy format. People want more out of Modern than what they are getting, with the proof being this very thread, and it is hard to argue with some posters on the nature of interaction being very go for the throat. At the same time, I don't think the top 8 really looks super bad.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
What are we coming to when people talk about unbanning Shoal and still talk about banning the Tron lands??? That's like unbanning Glimpse and having a problem with Goyf. The Tron lands are fine, if something needs to go, a TKS ban and a promise about future Eldrazi cmc would be better, or a Temple ban if absolutely needed.
Regardless, Shoal can never, EVER come off. It's not capable of being part of a healthy deck, it can only really be used for a t4 violator, it would require specific answers. It's not that it absolutely destroy the format, we might be able to handle it, but best case it's an unban for shock value that won't do anything but will keep the cantrips banned and be one new card away from a second Eldrazi Winter.
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What are we coming to when people talk about unbanning Shoal and still talk about banning the Tron lands??? That's like unbanning Glimpse and having a problem with Goyf. The Tron lands are fine, if something needs to go, a TKS ban and a promise about future Eldrazi cmc would be better, or a Temple ban if absolutely needed.
Regardless, Shoal can never, EVER come off. It's not capable of being part of a healthy deck, it can only really be used for a t4 violator, it would require specific answers. It's not that it absolutely destroy the format, we might be able to handle it, but best case it's an unban for shock value that won't do anything but will keep the cantrips banned and be one new card away from a second Eldrazi Winter.
One person suggested it, another answered "hell no," and then I chimed in my 2 cents. Even if some card has been discussed before, some people here may not have seen it, so I feel compelled to give a somewhat solid, yet naturally biased opinion on that card. Many have seen it before; I'm not shy to give reasoning for even stuff like Mental Misstep or Skullclamp - stuff that is just silly broken.
As people may know already, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to unbans. I think Wizards needs to go a long way down the unban list to have a format that is amazing in my eyes. But, like you said, there literally is no reason to take a chance and unban Blazing Shoal. If Wizards keeps going down the ban road and it gets extreme, I can literally see most of the Shoals being banned. The Cycle by definition does something that many Modern players don't like.
*On another note, I think it would be pretty sweet if Modern started over with no ban list. Then Wizards handled bans as they came up. With the announcement being much more often, at worst, this can give some players a chance to play their Spirit Animal card that they miss so much at least for a short while. Then there won't be a reason to argue that cards never had their due in Modern as well. I mean, maybe they could start with a ban list of Eye of Ugin, Mental Misstep, and Skullclamp?
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
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Well, there's suggesting a possible unban as a thought provoking exercise and then there is the position to ask for an unban because of wanting to be able to play a certain style of deck. The trouble with the latter is that the deck in question can't be parasitic or only answerable with a very limited subset of cards. Case in point, Eldrazi before the banning of Eye.
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3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Chrome Mox enables a Belcher deck, it's not safe at all. Besides, who wants to get turn 1 Chaliced by E-Tron?
As for Blazing Shoal, it's a cost/benefit question. I look at it kind of like the GGT unban. It probably wouldn't do anything right now, but it's an inherently broken card that runs a real risk of creating another T4 violator in the future. So whatever benefit there is to unbanning it, which is only really the desire to keep the banlist as short as possible, is outweighed by the potential risks of it causing problems down the road.
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What are we coming to when people talk about unbanning Shoal and still talk about banning the Tron lands??? That's like unbanning Glimpse and having a problem with Goyf. The Tron lands are fine, if something needs to go, a TKS ban and a promise about future Eldrazi cmc would be better, or a Temple ban if absolutely needed.
Regardless, Shoal can never, EVER come off. It's not capable of being part of a healthy deck, it can only really be used for a t4 violator, it would require specific answers. It's not that it absolutely destroy the format, we might be able to handle it, but best case it's an unban for shock value that won't do anything but will keep the cantrips banned and be one new card away from a second Eldrazi Winter.
One person suggested it, another answered "hell no," and then I chimed in my 2 cents. Even if some card has been discussed before, some people here may not have seen it, so I feel compelled to give a somewhat solid, yet naturally biased opinion on that card. Many have seen it before; I'm not shy to give reasoning for even stuff like Mental Misstep or Skullclamp - stuff that is just silly broken.
As people may know already, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to unbans. I think Wizards needs to go a long way down the unban list to have a format that is amazing in my eyes. But, like you said, there literally is no reason to take a chance and unban Blazing Shoal. If Wizards keeps going down the ban road and it gets extreme, I can literally see most of the Shoals being banned. The Cycle by definition does something that many Modern players don't like.
*On another note, I think it would be pretty sweet if Modern started over with no ban list. Then Wizards handled bans as they came up. With the announcement being much more often, at worst, this can give some players a chance to play their Spirit Animal card that they miss so much at least for a short while. Then there won't be a reason to argue that cards never had their due in Modern as well. I mean, maybe they could start with a ban list of Eye of Ugin, Mental Misstep, and Skullclamp?
I like that general idea, but I don't think Eye would be on that short of an initial list. That would be saying it is one of the top 3 offenders of the banned cards, and I am not sold that in that format, Winter Eldrazi would even be strong enough to see play
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The problem with being very liberal with unbans is the history behind some of them. Eldrazi winter was brutal: I along with many other players had to live through that disaster and to call it anything less than a disaster is giving a complete disservice to just how bad that point in modern was. The eldrazi decks of the time caused the entirety of modern to warp around their presence and forced competitive players to spring for anything they could find to counter the decks if they weren't playing eldrazi. Worship and even Painter's servant were being considered a lot of the time. Even if there is a chance that Eye of Ugin could exist in some kind of no-ban modern environment, no one is going to be too fond of the idea to unban that card.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Chrome Mox enables a Belcher deck, it's not safe at all. Besides, who wants to get turn 1 Chaliced by E-Tron?
As for Blazing Shoal, it's a cost/benefit question. I look at it kind of like the GGT unban. It probably wouldn't do anything right now, but it's an inherently broken card that runs a real risk of creating another T4 violator in the future. So whatever benefit there is to unbanning it, which is only really the desire to keep the banlist as short as possible, is outweighed by the potential risks of it causing problems down the road.
Eldrazi Tron as it currently stands cannot actually play this card
Didn't know it couldn't tap for colorless mana. Still, the fact that it enables Belcher to be a deck in Modern is enough of a reason to keep it banned.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
The problem with being very liberal with unbans is the history behind some of them. Eldrazi winter was brutal: I along with many other players had to live through that disaster and to call it anything less than a disaster is giving a complete disservice to just how bad that point in modern was. The eldrazi decks of the time caused the entirety of modern to warp around their presence and forced competitive players to spring for anything they could find to counter the decks if they weren't playing eldrazi. Worship and even Painter's servant were being considered a lot of the time. Even if there is a chance that Eye of Ugin could exist in some kind of no-ban modern environment, no one is going to be too fond of the idea to unban that card.
Mtggoldfish had a video of 12 post vs Eldrazi winter deck. 12 post stomped. Obviously just one data point but I don't believe eldrazi would be the most powerful thing in no ban modern. Regardless, no ban sounds silly without more powerful answers to things like FOW, Wasteland, etc. There's a reason why permission based decks in legacy all play old permission.
Regardless, without better land destruction, banning eye of ugin was the right call.
Anyways, does anyone else think Storm will be healthy for the format and cause people to run more interaction? Or will people just keep their heads down and try to win before storm can?
IMO, a combo deck that consistently killed turn 3 undisrupted, but was very prone to disruption of any type, would probably improve the format.
Most decks couldn't just race it (it would be consistently faster) but it would be weak to pretty much anything tryiing to interact.
The problem is that storm in its current form is pretty good against some of the interactive decks, and isn't as consistently killing turn 3.
As it is, I think in a couple months, we'll (or wizards, atleast) have data on how fast storm is killing turn 3. If it turns out its almost always faster than whatever else you could be doing, then we might see people trying to interact with it, but I kind of doubt it will cause a big change.
Its not likely to be fast enough in the regard, and its not weak enough against decks like jund or UW control to make them incredibly tempting.
When one of my local shops ran a no banlist Modern tournament, the top four decks were Jund (with DRS and GSZ), Affinity, Twin with the entire blue banned suite, and Storm.
Zoo did okay (Skullclamp did work). Any deck that could abuse Mental Misstep did. Dredge, Hypergenesis, and Eld-Tron barely existed. Glimpse Elves was a solid deck.
Honestly, the scariest cards on the banlist are Jitte, Mental Misstep, and Glimpse of Nature.
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You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
Can someone explain to me why mental misstep in a world where thoughtseize and inquisitions exist would be so bad?
I dont understand what about that card makes it so powerful? Is it the phyrexian mana?
If it cost 1 blue instead would it be banned?
The problem is that EVERY deck would start with 4. takes care of the best remoal in the format, stops discard cold, shuts down a lot of aggro creatures, and it counters itself, so decks that wouldn't otherwise run them do so to deal with them from the other player. Phyrexian mana definitely hurts, if it cost U, you couldn't have a war of them Turn 1-2. it would be in every deck, it deals with too much, too cheap, too early. It is actually crazy, because it it the only card that is a counter and only a counter that I would not want in Modern, I can't even dream up another that COULD see print. I would love to see FoW, but not MM
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Can someone explain to me why mental misstep in a world where thoughtseize and inquisitions exist would be so bad?
I dont understand what about that card makes it so powerful? Is it the phyrexian mana?
If it cost 1 blue instead would it be banned?
The problem is that EVERY deck would start with 4. takes care of the best remoal in the format, stops discard cold, shuts down a lot of aggro creatures, and it counters itself, so decks that wouldn't otherwise run them do so to deal with them from the other player. Phyrexian mana definitely hurts, if it cost U, you couldn't have a war of them Turn 1-2. it would be in every deck, it deals with too much, too cheap, too early. It is actually crazy, because it it the only card that is a counter and only a counter that I would not want in Modern, I can't even dream up another that COULD see print. I would love to see FoW, but not MM
Yeah MM is one of those cards that I couldn't believe made it through wizards r&d. The closest comparison I can think of is Daze, and as much as I love it, I think that card would be a bit too strong for Modern. It hurts to say that, especially when it slots into my two favorite decks so well, but it's also one of those cards that's so strong it demands that players prepare for it.
The way I'd explain why Mental Misstep is such a problematic card, both for Modern, and in terms of design in general, is to reflect that in any competitive game, when the best - or even the only - way to feasibly deal with something is by using it yourself, you've got something that is either overpowered or terribly designed.
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Well, I can saw a woman in two, but you won't wanna look in the box when I'm through.
IMO, tempo has really struggled in modern because most of the good tempo cards (force, daze, wasteland, brainstorm, nimble mongoose, cabal therapy, etc) that are defining in legacy aren't legal in modern.
Grixis shadow has started to popup as a similar deck, but IMO, I agree that tempo has been pretty absent in modern for a while.
Tempo decks have historically struggled in Modern because ours is a tempo-centric format. Such formats feature plenty of aggro and midrange, which give tempo decks a hard time. These decks tend to perform better in card advantage-centric formats (i.e. Legacy), which are in turn heavier on combo and control for tempo decks prey on.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Can someone explain to me why mental misstep in a world where thoughtseize and inquisitions exist would be so bad?
I dont understand what about that card makes it so powerful? Is it the phyrexian mana?
If it cost 1 blue instead would it be banned?
MM at just U would be fine. It would still disproportionately benefit decks like GDS, but it would be fairer. At Phyrexian U it's busted. Any deck can play it, it answers itself, and it's free and lets you cheat a curve. It was also demonstrably busted in basically every format where it was legal except like, Scars block. This is an easy never-unban for Wizards.
But if all decks can run it.. why would it be so broken.. i mean isnt that better than some of these cards that only some decks can run?
If it answers itself then that would be more fair than say a thoughseize where you cant do anything at all..
I still dont understand it. It would make for more interesting gameplay and would make you think twice before you just blatantly path a creature no questions asked.
Also wouldnt mental misstep be better then say chalice of the void. Where chalice stops you indeffinitely, mm can only stop 4 spells at best.
Hmm perhaps i have to see gameplay. But i read a tcg article where the author discusses the possibility of it being unbanned as well as how its not as terrible a choice as people think.
It would also help slow down some decks like affinity so midrange decks could have more of a chance.
I dont know..it just seems like it would pretty interesting unban though i see your guys points i think that if all decks have it then that kind of evens the field..
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But if all decks can run it.. why would it be so broken.. i mean isnt that better than some of these cards that only some decks can run?
If it answers itself then that would be more fair than say a thoughseize where you cant do anything at all..
I still dont understand it. It would make for more interesting gameplay and would make you think twice before you just blatantly path a creature no questions asked.
Also wouldnt mental misstep be better then say chalice of the void. Where chalice stops you indeffinitely, mm can only stop 4 spells at best.
Hmm perhaps i have to see gameplay. But i read a tcg article where the author discusses the possibility of it being unbanned as well as how its not as terrible a choice as people think.
It would also help slow down some decks like affinity so midrange decks could have more of a chance.
I dont know..it just seems like it would pretty interesting unban though i see your guys points i think that if all decks have it then that kind of evens the field..
MM would become an auto 4-of in every deck, and several games would come down to "who drew the most copies of it." Competitive diversity is a goal for modern, and mistep directly opposes that goal.
But if all decks can run it.. why would it be so broken.. i mean isnt that better than some of these cards that only some decks can run?
If it answers itself then that would be more fair than say a thoughseize where you cant do anything at all..
I still dont understand it. It would make for more interesting gameplay and would make you think twice before you just blatantly path a creature no questions asked.
Also wouldnt mental misstep be better then say chalice of the void. Where chalice stops you indeffinitely, mm can only stop 4 spells at best.
Hmm perhaps i have to see gameplay. But i read a tcg article where the author discusses the possibility of it being unbanned as well as how its not as terrible a choice as people think.
It would also help slow down some decks like affinity so midrange decks could have more of a chance.
I dont know..it just seems like it would pretty interesting unban though i see your guys points i think that if all decks have it then that kind of evens the field..
First of all, Affinity isn’t really a problem in the format and MM does little to them anyways. MM isn’t the answer that suddenly makes midrange more relevant again, since E-Tron is the main reason that Midrange (outside of GDS) struggles at the moment. E-Tron does midrange better by casting creatures the resist interaction and has a classic Tron end game if the game drags on too long.
Second of all, you’re comparing a lock piece (Chalice of the Void) that costs 2 mana to counter spells at CMC=1, to a spell that essentially costs zero, that can be played on turn zero with no further deckbuilding constraints. To play Chalice, one has to make deckbuilding restrictions to either get it out early by devoting slots to Simian Spirit Guide, or wait until turn 2 to cast on normal curve. Then, it further has to be built to be able to operate under it, which means no 1 CMC spells.
Mental Misstep just requires that you place 4 of them in the deck. That’s it.
I’m not saying that Chalice is any more healthy for the format or anything, but just that it requires deckbuilding restrictions to play with it. On a personal level, I certainly don’t want to see Mental Mistep running rampant in the format, since the format already focuses so hard turn 1 and 2 plays, making MM that much more devastating to the format.
Of course, E-Tron could give a flying fig about MM. It just hits Map and Basilisk Collar. No need to make that deck even better by forcing everyone to sling MM at each other.
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Grixis shadow has started to popup as a similar deck, but IMO, I agree that tempo has been pretty absent in modern for a while.
@Ym1r, That one sentence was key, as there were only a few, and most of them I agreed with. That one seemed to be coming from hyperbole, so I asked to clarify. Also, in Magic, we are, to some degree, equipped with the same tools. There is the question of how well each player can afford cards, but I'm guessing that's not the scope of the conversation here. As I pointed out in my response to ccc1522, chess does actually have variance in it's starting position, in that the black pieces are set up differently than the white pieces. As far as when we talk about the tools that each player has in Magic, time is a tool, too. Cards in each players decks are tools. If a deck denies an opponent the use of time, by simply working to complete a winning gamestate before the opponent can make use of their turns to cast cards or play additional lands, then they are directly denying a tool that a deck might need to accomplish its goal. They aren't ignoring it, they are denying it, even if the pilot is not aware of this concept. With cards like Chalice, Moon, Bridge, etc., they are doing the same. They are looking to pre-emptively deny the opponent necessary tools.
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Of course they'll do it eventually. It's just not very meaningful for our current discussion. You can keep repeating this and if Wizards made a new format ten years down the road, you would still be right. It just doesn't, and shouldn't, affect how we talk about Modern today.
Re: Storm and Twin
Not comparable. Twin was banned for diversity violations. Storm, if banned under the criterion people talk about, would be a T4 rule violator. There is no inconsistency between Storm's legality and Twin's ban. Amulet Bloom is a better comparison but unless someone has hard numbers, no one should entertain that comparison either.
My concern is more about wizards definition of a healthy format than anything else. I do think that there is a disconnect between the community definition of what constitutes a healthy format vs what wizards thinks is a healthy format. People want more out of Modern than what they are getting, with the proof being this very thread, and it is hard to argue with some posters on the nature of interaction being very go for the throat. At the same time, I don't think the top 8 really looks super bad.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Regardless, Shoal can never, EVER come off. It's not capable of being part of a healthy deck, it can only really be used for a t4 violator, it would require specific answers. It's not that it absolutely destroy the format, we might be able to handle it, but best case it's an unban for shock value that won't do anything but will keep the cantrips banned and be one new card away from a second Eldrazi Winter.
One person suggested it, another answered "hell no," and then I chimed in my 2 cents. Even if some card has been discussed before, some people here may not have seen it, so I feel compelled to give a somewhat solid, yet naturally biased opinion on that card. Many have seen it before; I'm not shy to give reasoning for even stuff like Mental Misstep or Skullclamp - stuff that is just silly broken.
As people may know already, I'm pretty liberal when it comes to unbans. I think Wizards needs to go a long way down the unban list to have a format that is amazing in my eyes. But, like you said, there literally is no reason to take a chance and unban Blazing Shoal. If Wizards keeps going down the ban road and it gets extreme, I can literally see most of the Shoals being banned. The Cycle by definition does something that many Modern players don't like.
*On another note, I think it would be pretty sweet if Modern started over with no ban list. Then Wizards handled bans as they came up. With the announcement being much more often, at worst, this can give some players a chance to play their Spirit Animal card that they miss so much at least for a short while. Then there won't be a reason to argue that cards never had their due in Modern as well. I mean, maybe they could start with a ban list of Eye of Ugin, Mental Misstep, and Skullclamp?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
As for Blazing Shoal, it's a cost/benefit question. I look at it kind of like the GGT unban. It probably wouldn't do anything right now, but it's an inherently broken card that runs a real risk of creating another T4 violator in the future. So whatever benefit there is to unbanning it, which is only really the desire to keep the banlist as short as possible, is outweighed by the potential risks of it causing problems down the road.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I like that general idea, but I don't think Eye would be on that short of an initial list. That would be saying it is one of the top 3 offenders of the banned cards, and I am not sold that in that format, Winter Eldrazi would even be strong enough to see play
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Check the text on Chrome Mox.
Eldrazi Tron as it currently stands cannot actually play this card
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Mtggoldfish had a video of 12 post vs Eldrazi winter deck. 12 post stomped. Obviously just one data point but I don't believe eldrazi would be the most powerful thing in no ban modern. Regardless, no ban sounds silly without more powerful answers to things like FOW, Wasteland, etc. There's a reason why permission based decks in legacy all play old permission.
Regardless, without better land destruction, banning eye of ugin was the right call.
Anyways, does anyone else think Storm will be healthy for the format and cause people to run more interaction? Or will people just keep their heads down and try to win before storm can?
Take what he says with a grain of salt.
JITTE would ruin aggro creature decks, or at best it becomes, "who landed JITTE first, because they win then".
It would promote awful gameplay.
JITTE is up there with skull-clamp, DRS and POD on the ban list to me. No thanks.
Most decks couldn't just race it (it would be consistently faster) but it would be weak to pretty much anything tryiing to interact.
The problem is that storm in its current form is pretty good against some of the interactive decks, and isn't as consistently killing turn 3.
As it is, I think in a couple months, we'll (or wizards, atleast) have data on how fast storm is killing turn 3. If it turns out its almost always faster than whatever else you could be doing, then we might see people trying to interact with it, but I kind of doubt it will cause a big change.
Its not likely to be fast enough in the regard, and its not weak enough against decks like jund or UW control to make them incredibly tempting.
Zoo did okay (Skullclamp did work). Any deck that could abuse Mental Misstep did. Dredge, Hypergenesis, and Eld-Tron barely existed. Glimpse Elves was a solid deck.
Honestly, the scariest cards on the banlist are Jitte, Mental Misstep, and Glimpse of Nature.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
I dont understand what about that card makes it so powerful? Is it the phyrexian mana?
If it cost 1 blue instead would it be banned?
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
The problem is that EVERY deck would start with 4. takes care of the best remoal in the format, stops discard cold, shuts down a lot of aggro creatures, and it counters itself, so decks that wouldn't otherwise run them do so to deal with them from the other player. Phyrexian mana definitely hurts, if it cost U, you couldn't have a war of them Turn 1-2. it would be in every deck, it deals with too much, too cheap, too early. It is actually crazy, because it it the only card that is a counter and only a counter that I would not want in Modern, I can't even dream up another that COULD see print. I would love to see FoW, but not MM
Yeah MM is one of those cards that I couldn't believe made it through wizards r&d. The closest comparison I can think of is Daze, and as much as I love it, I think that card would be a bit too strong for Modern. It hurts to say that, especially when it slots into my two favorite decks so well, but it's also one of those cards that's so strong it demands that players prepare for it.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
MM at just U would be fine. It would still disproportionately benefit decks like GDS, but it would be fairer. At Phyrexian U it's busted. Any deck can play it, it answers itself, and it's free and lets you cheat a curve. It was also demonstrably busted in basically every format where it was legal except like, Scars block. This is an easy never-unban for Wizards.
If it answers itself then that would be more fair than say a thoughseize where you cant do anything at all..
I still dont understand it. It would make for more interesting gameplay and would make you think twice before you just blatantly path a creature no questions asked.
Also wouldnt mental misstep be better then say chalice of the void. Where chalice stops you indeffinitely, mm can only stop 4 spells at best.
Hmm perhaps i have to see gameplay. But i read a tcg article where the author discusses the possibility of it being unbanned as well as how its not as terrible a choice as people think.
It would also help slow down some decks like affinity so midrange decks could have more of a chance.
I dont know..it just seems like it would pretty interesting unban though i see your guys points i think that if all decks have it then that kind of evens the field..
RUAffinityUR
GMono Green StompyG
CEldrazi TronC
URWJeskai GeistWRU
WRBoros BurnRW
BRWMardu PyromancerWRB
MM would become an auto 4-of in every deck, and several games would come down to "who drew the most copies of it." Competitive diversity is a goal for modern, and mistep directly opposes that goal.
First of all, Affinity isn’t really a problem in the format and MM does little to them anyways. MM isn’t the answer that suddenly makes midrange more relevant again, since E-Tron is the main reason that Midrange (outside of GDS) struggles at the moment. E-Tron does midrange better by casting creatures the resist interaction and has a classic Tron end game if the game drags on too long.
Second of all, you’re comparing a lock piece (Chalice of the Void) that costs 2 mana to counter spells at CMC=1, to a spell that essentially costs zero, that can be played on turn zero with no further deckbuilding constraints. To play Chalice, one has to make deckbuilding restrictions to either get it out early by devoting slots to Simian Spirit Guide, or wait until turn 2 to cast on normal curve. Then, it further has to be built to be able to operate under it, which means no 1 CMC spells.
Mental Misstep just requires that you place 4 of them in the deck. That’s it.
I’m not saying that Chalice is any more healthy for the format or anything, but just that it requires deckbuilding restrictions to play with it. On a personal level, I certainly don’t want to see Mental Mistep running rampant in the format, since the format already focuses so hard turn 1 and 2 plays, making MM that much more devastating to the format.
Of course, E-Tron could give a flying fig about MM. It just hits Map and Basilisk Collar. No need to make that deck even better by forcing everyone to sling MM at each other.