Jeskai is a GOOD bolt snap bolt deck, and Jeskai Queller embodies a tempo creature in modern.
If it is a good deck that stands on its own, then why should it be threatened by Twin? Same goes for GDS and Storm. Why is it impossible for Twin to coexist with these decks? It coexisted just fine with Grixis Control and Delver, back before those both disappeared.
If I come off as aggressive it's because I thoroughly do not understand this stance of Twin "invalidating" other URx decks. If those other decks are "invalidated" it's because they were bad decks, and it has nothing to do with Twin. If those decks are strong enough to stand on their own, then players will continue to play them. At least in numbers similar to what Jeskai is now (which is aggregating all those former Delver/Twin players and probably those jaded on GDS).
Introducing new (or returning old) options should never be a bad thing, especially if that option promotes good gameplay. If that results in a reduction of other decks, it means people either didn't actually like those other decks or they were not good enough on their own compared to all the T1 decks.
Brennan's article in a nutshell: I hate modern because I can't try to get a deck with a 60% winrate against the entire field. Screw pros. I don't want that elitist class dictating the game.
I read that article and was annoyed. I was even more annoyed to see him in the top 8 for player of the year on SCG.
He's basically saying he dislikes that there aren't 4 decks to meta against and linear nature of modern.
Luckily it was a garbage article in the free section. His articles are rarely interesting and full of fluff pieces.
Personally? I'm also opposed to pro points earning GP byes solely to reduce the odds of a pro facing a bad matchup with a rogue deck. Pros are not stars to me, the cards and decks are the stars. LSV, Reid Duke, EFRO in particular because he is a jackass with his "pro equity" concept, I have zero issue with their trying to make some money out of this, but WOTC is under this weird impression that certain individuals market the game when it is the mere existence of a pro circuit that does that. Hell I promised myself if I ever made top 8 at a Grand Prix I'd be cutting pro wrestling style promos. Would be entertaining considering most pro magic players talk about this game like it is something to be taken super seriously. League of Legends as an esport has energy, vitality, and hype, while MtG matches are called like its a golf tournament
Jeskai is a GOOD bolt snap bolt deck, and Jeskai Queller embodies a tempo creature in modern.
If it is a good deck that stands on its own, then why should it be threatened by Twin? Same goes for GDS and Storm. Why is it impossible for Twin to coexist with these decks? It coexisted just fine with Grixis Control and Delver, back before those both disappeared.
cus its good but not that good
also no it didn't here's a pie chart and some hard numbers, surprised this is news since u have been talking about twin on here for the last year
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Jeskai is a GOOD bolt snap bolt deck, and Jeskai Queller embodies a tempo creature in modern.
If it is a good deck that stands on its own, then why should it be threatened by Twin? Same goes for GDS and Storm. Why is it impossible for Twin to coexist with these decks? It coexisted just fine with Grixis Control and Delver, back before those both disappeared.
cus its good but not that good
Your article there was just as full of bias as your recent one, which is why I always referenced Sheridan's, and continually referenced the GP Pittsburgh breakdown. In fact your selective categorizations and biases rival mine in both intensity and stubbornness; it's just in the opposite direction. But I'm glad you agree that removing a deck doesn't make the remaining decks any better.
Jeskai is a GOOD bolt snap bolt deck, and Jeskai Queller embodies a tempo creature in modern.
If it is a good deck that stands on its own, then why should it be threatened by Twin? Same goes for GDS and Storm. Why is it impossible for Twin to coexist with these decks? It coexisted just fine with Grixis Control and Delver, back before those both disappeared.
If I come off as aggressive it's because I thoroughly do not understand this stance of Twin "invalidating" other URx decks. If those other decks are "invalidated" it's because they were bad decks, and it has nothing to do with Twin....
Either people didn't actually like those other decks or they were not good enough on their own compared to all the T1 decks.
The way you express this sentiment doesn't seem to recognize that there are no "good decks" or "bad decks" in isolation. When the meta changes--say for example by the unbanning of a card that was archetype- and format-defining when it was legal--then some decks are likely to become worse (or better) than before the change.
An easy example is Jund; it would be hard to argue against the observation that it used to be a good deck and now it is not very good. But the deck didn't change, or at least not much. Instead, the cards around the deck changed. Good or bad only exist in context.
An easy example is Jund; it would be hard to argue against the observation that it used to be a good deck and now it is not very good. But the deck didn't change, or at least not much. Instead, the cards around the deck changed. Good or bad only exist in context.
Using that same logic, would Twin even be that good today? If anything, it would make GDS better, since running 6-8 discard spells, 1 mana Negates, and 1 mana fatties that don't die to Bolt seem pretty good. Most played cards in the format are discard spells and creature removal. If it was banned for being "too good" in the old context, I'm curious why people think it would continue to be that way today.
it wouldnt be too good, and thats kind of the point, but it creates a metagame space that interactive decks capitalize upon without twin being a straight dog to interactive strategies.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
it wouldnt be too good, and thats kind of the point, but it creates a metagame space that interactive decks capitalize upon without twin being a straight dog to interactive strategies.
I guess this is the difference of opinions then. I don't really want what we seem to have now: exaggerated, high-variance decks with exaggerated, high-variance matchups and huge dependence on narrow hate cards and silver bullets. When the best decks are ALL powerful/fast/linear/narrow decks, I think it's a horrible and toxic environment where variance matters more than skill. I would much rather there be multiple decks that had 60/40, 55/45, 50/50, etc kinds of matchups, where your decisions and play lines mattered more than your pairings board, dice roll, and opening hand. I thought it was absolutely wonderful when BGx and URx were top of the format because so many of the games with or against those decks were rich and engaging. None of them held an oppressive hold on the meta, broken/fast strategies existed but weren't out of control, there was huge, rich diversity among the spread of Tier 1 and 2 decks.
I think the two biggest causes for the state of things today are the removal of Twin and the printing of cheap Eldrazi.
my statement is in favor of twin, sorry if it wasnt clear. I might be biased as a blue player who had a fairly good matchup against twin though, and I do agree with you that rich and engaging lines of play deciding games was the highlight and pleasure of many modern games. To elaborate on what I meant is that twin isnt overpowered and thats exactly why it should be unbanned...because it fills the food chain with a predator and prey for different decks.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
I'm interested in seeing if they unban something this coming year. I've heard wizards mention they may be doing something like that this year and the only two cards I can think of that might happen with are Bloodbraid Elf and Deathrite Shaman. They could unban Jace, but I'm not sure he'd do much.
Did you mean to write something else? Putting Deathrite Shaman as one of the most plausible unbannings doesn't make sense. Or are you saying you think Deathrite might get banned in Legacy?
I'm actually serious about them unbanning DRS, and equally serious about the second part of my statement saying "for the love of all people, don't do it!"
Why? Every previous unbanning occurred with considerable consensus among the playerbase that it was safe, which isn't true for Deathrite Shaman. Heck, there's recurring discussions that it's broken in Legacy. There is essentially no reason whatsoever to expect an unbanning for the card. Heck, if we were to rank the likelihood of any unban (not necessarily how good an unban would be, just the likelihood), I think I'd legitimately put Deathrite Shaman second to last on the list, with only Skullclamp being less likely.
The most plausible cards for them to unban are Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Splinter Twin. I can't see anything other than those getting unbanned in the near future. Not to say any of them will be, just that they're the only plausible candidates right now (maybe also Preordain, but the strength of Death's Shadow and Storm make that less likely than before).
So why do you think Deathrite Shaman, would have any chance of an unban, particularly ahead of cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, and Splinter Twin that have considerably more support amongst the playerbase to be unbanned?
Jeskai is a GOOD bolt snap bolt deck, and Jeskai Queller embodies a tempo creature in modern.
If it is a good deck that stands on its own, then why should it be threatened by Twin? Same goes for GDS and Storm. Why is it impossible for Twin to coexist with these decks? It coexisted just fine with Grixis Control and Delver, back before those both disappeared.
If I come off as aggressive it's because I thoroughly do not understand this stance of Twin "invalidating" other URx decks. If those other decks are "invalidated" it's because they were bad decks, and it has nothing to do with Twin. If those decks are strong enough to stand on their own, then players will continue to play them. At least in numbers similar to what Jeskai is now (which is aggregating all those former Delver/Twin players and probably those jaded on GDS).
Introducing new (or returning old) options should never be a bad thing, especially if that option promotes good gameplay. If that results in a reduction of other decks, it means people either didn't actually like those other decks or they were not good enough on their own compared to all the T1 decks.
There is another element I haven't seen addressed yet, and that's perception. Whether it actually is or not, Twin is perceived by many to be the best URx shell; therefore the prevailing opinion becomes that if you're playing URx without Twin then you're doing it wrong. Especially now when we don't have access to much hard data, people's bias, experience, and perception of a deck will drive the success of it.
For an example, look at Eldrazi Tron right now. Players are running scared of this deck, yet upon looking at the little bit of hard data we do have from big events, it's failing to put up even decent numbers, let alone dominant. Despite it's poor performance on bigger stages, it still holds this reputation for being an unstoppable slog of Eldrazi creatures. It's perception doesn't line up with it's actual performance, and Splinter Twin produces a similar effect. Regardless of how it lines up against the field and against the top tier, the perception of what Twin can do will have an impact on players.
I agree with Cfusion that I don't think Twin would hog up the URx space in the meta anymore if it were unbanned. People would still play GDS, Gifts Storm, and Jeskai Queller. The problem with Twin taking up all the diversity of blue decks before was that there weren't any other blue decks that were actually good. It was never a problem with Twin, it was a problem with the other blue decks. That isn't so much the case anymore. GDS is a legit great deck, as is Storm. Because of the existence of GDS, blue control became viable again, which is why we see UW and Jeskai decks now. I'm also seeing a lot of people beginning to recognize how good Spell Queller is in Modern, so it would probably hold up a Jeskai shell just by itself. If you unban Twin, I don't think it takes much from those decks, and its existence would further improve the blue control decks, which is a win.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I agree with Cfusion that I don't think Twin would hog up the URx space in the meta anymore if it were unbanned. People would still play GDS, Gifts Storm, and Jeskai Queller. The problem with Twin taking up all the diversity of blue decks before was that there weren't any other blue decks that were actually good. It was never a problem with Twin, it was a problem with the other blue decks. That isn't so much the case anymore. GDS is a legit great deck, as is Storm. Because of the existence of GDS, blue control became viable again, which is why we see UW and Jeskai decks now. I'm also seeing a lot of people beginning to recognize how good Spell Queller is in Modern, so it would probably hold up a Jeskai shell just by itself. If you unban Twin, I don't think it takes much from those decks, and its existence would further improve the blue control decks, which is a win.
Modern is in a good place right now---it's more popular than ever and Wizards has endorsed its healthiness on record. So if Twin would indeed diversify the metagame, the onus is really on those clamoring for an unban to come up with any---and I mean any---evidence of that. Even testing Twin against decks like UR Storm, GDS, Jeskai, or something non-URx like Eldrazi, and then penning a writeup of the methods and results, would go a long way (although obviously not be totally comprehensive). As long as they're unwilling to do any work, though, I don't see how it's an argument or a discussion anyone here should entertain.
@Vissah and others sick of the constant, circular, and at this point frankly petty, Twin discussion: just ignore the perpetrators. They won't shut up, but they also won't then be sucking you into arguments you cannot win (because they refuse to participate constructively), and there will be less Twin content in the thread overall.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I'm interested in seeing if they unban something this coming year. I've heard wizards mention they may be doing something like that this year and the only two cards I can think of that might happen with are Bloodbraid Elf and Deathrite Shaman. They could unban Jace, but I'm not sure he'd do much.
Did you mean to write something else? Putting Deathrite Shaman as one of the most plausible unbannings doesn't make sense. Or are you saying you think Deathrite might get banned in Legacy?
I'm actually serious about them unbanning DRS, and equally serious about the second part of my statement saying "for the love of all people, don't do it!"
Why? Every previous unbanning occurred with considerable consensus among the playerbase that it was safe, which isn't true for Deathrite Shaman. Heck, there's recurring discussions that it's broken in Legacy. There is essentially no reason whatsoever to expect an unbanning for the card. Heck, if we were to rank the likelihood of any unban (not necessarily how good an unban would be, just the likelihood), I think I'd legitimately put Deathrite Shaman second to last on the list, with only Skullclamp being less likely.
The most plausible cards for them to unban are Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Splinter Twin. I can't see anything other than those getting unbanned in the near future. Not to say any of them will be, just that they're the only plausible candidates right now (maybe also Preordain, but the strength of Death's Shadow and Storm make that less likely than before).
So why do you think Deathrite Shaman, would have any chance of an unban, particularly ahead of cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, and Splinter Twin that have considerably more support amongst the playerbase to be unbanned?
Popularity more than anything else. It's definitely not the most likely to get unbanned if the group doing bans and unbans is taking some time to think about what cards could be more dangerous in modern than others, but that isn't necessarily the driving force behind an unban, that is the driving force behind banning something.
Look at this forum: When people are talking about unbanning SFM, for example, is there any data in modern to indicate that it is a safe unban or are people mostly just going after an unban because it is a card they desperately want to play with in the format? Even I have cards like that and one of them is SFM just so I can play my Death and Taxes list. What would be helpful for wizards is to have some kind of set up where they can get data on how games unfold with certain cards legal in the format. Probably an MTGO or MTG Arena event week where they have a special unbanned (or as I like to call, modern unglued/unhinged/Madcap modern), where people can play with previously banned cards. Maybe even throw the event at a GP once in a while. That way they can get to see cards work in the "modern format" and maybe make adjustments after a few bouts to the ban/restricted list.
But right now, my feeling is that they should never unban anything because they don't have any way to see how those older cards interact. The only way they can do that is to unban it in modern and then watch to see if some kind of natural disaster just got unleashed on everyone.
Why haven't they banned Collected Company still seems like a mystery, though. It is just going to keep "getting better" with time so they should ban it to maintain the precedent set by the Birthing Pod ban. I've got a feeling it's probably because doing it would be a final nail in the coffin for a lot of people, as I think the progression on that one went Birthing Pod -> Collected Company -> Hey we tried to make a fixed pod with Eldritch Evolution... never mind keep playing Collected Company, to now. They probably want to avoid the URx disaster.
To be frank, I'm more annoyed at bannings/unbannings as a casual modern player than people who probably play on a more regular basis.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I agree with Cfusion that I don't think Twin would hog up the URx space in the meta anymore if it were unbanned. People would still play GDS, Gifts Storm, and Jeskai Queller. The problem with Twin taking up all the diversity of blue decks before was that there weren't any other blue decks that were actually good. It was never a problem with Twin, it was a problem with the other blue decks. That isn't so much the case anymore. GDS is a legit great deck, as is Storm. Because of the existence of GDS, blue control became viable again, which is why we see UW and Jeskai decks now. I'm also seeing a lot of people beginning to recognize how good Spell Queller is in Modern, so it would probably hold up a Jeskai shell just by itself. If you unban Twin, I don't think it takes much from those decks, and its existence would further improve the blue control decks, which is a win.
Modern is in a good place right now---it's more popular than ever and Wizards has endorsed its healthiness on record.
Modern is in a "good" place, if you consider "good" being a bunch of high variance decks smashing into each other, usually ignoring the opponent, or playing past them or at them. It's defined by matchup lotteries and sideboard cards. It has gained popularity over the past year or so because of how unbelievably awful Standard was and players were looking for more things to do (and Legacy is prohibitively expensive). New players to Modern also probably like randomly getting free wins against much better players due to exactly the matchup and sideboard lotteries. It feels good to beat better players with a jank brew or some random T2/3 deck in a match they should have no business winning. Wizards says its healthy because they want to draw in more players by keeping the game more variance dependent and less skill dependent. You can play a lot of different decks and win with those decks. Not because of your skill, but just due to luck of the draw. If this is what the players want out of Modern as a whole, then I greatly disagree with the assessment of of health.
How is it possible that a tread about the meta always, and I mean always, ends up in a Twin discussion?
Don’t you people get tired of yourself always talking about the same stuff?
Twin is banned, the deck is dead!
Get over it and get on with you life!
Well, you can blame ashton here. He posted a link to his hugely biased article, knowing it would generate buzz, and then asked for peoples' thoughts. Then, has the audacity to say that the "perpetrators won't shut up about Twin" after knowingly instigating discussion.
As a side note, perhaps it comes up often (which it does on FB groups, big site articles, reddit, and other forums) because it was banned under bogus and and untrue premises, its removal helped foster some of the worst times in Modern's history, it was nuked from existence instead of just powered down, and would be completely fine in today's meta.
I think its time for an Umezawa's Jitte Unban, not for any specific serious reason, but to contrast all of you who think twin would be this absurd unsafe tool in the context of the metagame. I mean artifact and enchantment removal exists right?
Modern's power level is far from standard, as well as far from legacy and its banned list, with some of the cards on it (like splinter twin...jitte is just a personal wish), doesn't represent that power level.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Twin players...the crazy stalker girlfriend of MtG's modern format.
Says someone who wasn't even playing when it was legal.
For reference, I don't make comments about Pod or Treasure Cruise or anything before spring 2015 because I wasn't playing Modern before 2015. I make a few comments about BBE, only because I think it's laughably tame in today's meta.
Edit: Day 2 breakdown of SCG CIN:
Grixis Death’s Shadow – 7
Counters Company – 7
U/R Gifts Storm – 4
Elves – 4
Infect – 4
Five-Color Death’s Shadow – 3
Scapeshift – 3
Affinity – 3
Eldrazi Tron – 3
Burn – 3
Jund – 3
B/W Eldrazi Taxes – 3
Abzan – 2
Jeskai Control – 2
G/B Tron – 2
Ad Nauseam – 1
8-Rack – 1
Living End – 1
U/G Merfolk – 1
Bant Retreat – 1
Abzan Company – 1
Humans – 1
G/W Tron – 1
G/W Company – 1
G/R Ponza – 1
Bant Spirits – 1
U/W Control – 1
Grixis Delver – 1
Death and Taxes – 1
I think the most interesting thing is seeing four copies of Infect; a deck that got destroyed every time it was on camera. It's also not surprising to see ETron down a bit, since the top end is flooded with powerful, fast, linear decks. Another snapshot.
Did you mean to write something else? Putting Deathrite Shaman as one of the most plausible unbannings doesn't make sense. Or are you saying you think Deathrite might get banned in Legacy?
I'm actually serious about them unbanning DRS, and equally serious about the second part of my statement saying "for the love of all people, don't do it!"
Why? Every previous unbanning occurred with considerable consensus among the playerbase that it was safe, which isn't true for Deathrite Shaman. Heck, there's recurring discussions that it's broken in Legacy. There is essentially no reason whatsoever to expect an unbanning for the card. Heck, if we were to rank the likelihood of any unban (not necessarily how good an unban would be, just the likelihood), I think I'd legitimately put Deathrite Shaman second to last on the list, with only Skullclamp being less likely.
The most plausible cards for them to unban are Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Splinter Twin. I can't see anything other than those getting unbanned in the near future. Not to say any of them will be, just that they're the only plausible candidates right now (maybe also Preordain, but the strength of Death's Shadow and Storm make that less likely than before).
So why do you think Deathrite Shaman, would have any chance of an unban, particularly ahead of cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, and Splinter Twin that have considerably more support amongst the playerbase to be unbanned?
Popularity more than anything else. It's definitely not the most likely to get unbanned if the group doing bans and unbans is taking some time to think about what cards could be more dangerous in modern than others, but that isn't necessarily the driving force behind an unban, that is the driving force behind banning something.
But... there isn't popularity behind an unban for Deathrite Shaman. A quick look at the unbanning poll will demonstrate that. The other cards I listed all have much more support behind an unbanning. Even if you want to say "well, that's just this forum!" (which has in the past repeatedly demonstrated a correlation between cards that get unbanned and cards that there's support in the polls to get unbanned), all the other message boards I've seen have suggested Mystic/BBE/Jace/Twin as unbannings, but pretty much never Deathrite Shaman.
Look at this forum: When people are talking about unbanning SFM, for example, is there any data in modern to indicate that it is a safe unban or are people mostly just going after an unban because it is a card they desperately want to play with in the format?
The card never showed itself to be a problem in the format, does not seem to be at a power level problematic for the format, goes into no Tier 1 deck, and I do know some people tested it in the past and said they didn't think it was overpowered, not sure how recently that was though.
But right now, my feeling is that they should never unban anything because they don't have any way to see how those older cards interact. The only way they can do that is to unban it in modern and then watch to see if some kind of natural disaster just got unleashed on everyone.
That's an insane attitude. By that logic, everything previously banned would still be banned despite the fact that, GGT aside, they've all been shown to be perfectly fine.
Why haven't they banned Collected Company still seems like a mystery, though. It is just going to keep "getting better" with time so they should ban it to maintain the precedent set by the Birthing Pod ban.
The "precedent" they set with the Birthing Pod ban is that if a deck is about 30% of the format, it'll get banned (keeping with previous precedents). Collected Company, last I checked, isn't even 10%.
Did you mean to write something else? Putting Deathrite Shaman as one of the most plausible unbannings doesn't make sense. Or are you saying you think Deathrite might get banned in Legacy?
I'm actually serious about them unbanning DRS, and equally serious about the second part of my statement saying "for the love of all people, don't do it!"
Why? Every previous unbanning occurred with considerable consensus among the playerbase that it was safe, which isn't true for Deathrite Shaman. Heck, there's recurring discussions that it's broken in Legacy. There is essentially no reason whatsoever to expect an unbanning for the card. Heck, if we were to rank the likelihood of any unban (not necessarily how good an unban would be, just the likelihood), I think I'd legitimately put Deathrite Shaman second to last on the list, with only Skullclamp being less likely.
The most plausible cards for them to unban are Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Splinter Twin. I can't see anything other than those getting unbanned in the near future. Not to say any of them will be, just that they're the only plausible candidates right now (maybe also Preordain, but the strength of Death's Shadow and Storm make that less likely than before).
So why do you think Deathrite Shaman, would have any chance of an unban, particularly ahead of cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, and Splinter Twin that have considerably more support amongst the playerbase to be unbanned?
Popularity more than anything else. It's definitely not the most likely to get unbanned if the group doing bans and unbans is taking some time to think about what cards could be more dangerous in modern than others, but that isn't necessarily the driving force behind an unban, that is the driving force behind banning something.
But... there isn't popularity behind an unban for Deathrite Shaman. A quick look at the unbanning poll will demonstrate that. The other cards I listed all have much more support behind an unbanning. Even if you want to say "well, that's just this forum!" (which has in the past repeatedly demonstrated a correlation between cards that get unbanned and cards that there's support in the polls to get unbanned), all the other message boards I've seen have suggested Mystic/BBE/Jace/Twin as unbannings, but pretty much never Deathrite Shaman.
Look at this forum: When people are talking about unbanning SFM, for example, is there any data in modern to indicate that it is a safe unban or are people mostly just going after an unban because it is a card they desperately want to play with in the format?
The card never showed itself to be a problem in the format, does not seem to be at a power level problematic for the format, goes into no Tier 1 deck, and I do know some people tested it in the past and said they didn't think it was overpowered, not sure how recently that was though.
But right now, my feeling is that they should never unban anything because they don't have any way to see how those older cards interact. The only way they can do that is to unban it in modern and then watch to see if some kind of natural disaster just got unleashed on everyone.
That's an insane attitude. By that logic, everything previously banned would still be banned despite the fact that, GGT aside, they've all been shown to be perfectly fine.
Why haven't they banned Collected Company still seems like a mystery, though. It is just going to keep "getting better" with time so they should ban it to maintain the precedent set by the Birthing Pod ban.
The "precedent" they set with the Birthing Pod ban is that if a deck is about 30% of the format, it'll get banned (keeping with previous precedents). Collected Company, last I checked, isn't even 10%.
There's nothing insane about not unbanning anything given the only evidence that anything is actually safe is from a few people running a few games and them saying that it is safe. Wizards bans cards based on getting gameplay information via MTGO, the Pro Tour (most likely), and possibly other sources. It's not hard to say they probably have more information on what cards should be or shouldn't be banned than any small group or gameplay run. Also, on Birthing Pod, the reasons that were given when looking at the original article are mentioned in the January 19, 2015 article. (Posting it here for easy reference, though)
Over the past year, Birthing Pod decks have won significantly more Grand Prix than any other Modern decks and compose the largest percentage of the field. Each year, new powerful options are printed, most recently Siege Rhino. Over time, this creates a growing gap between the strength of the Pod deck and other creature decks. Pod won five of the twelve Grand Prix over the past year, including winning the last two. The high percentage of the field playing Pod suppresses decks, especially other creature decks, that have an unfavorable matchup. In the interest of supporting a diverse format, Birthing Pod is banned.
The part highlighted in bold is the part of interest. Really, the only reason I can think of why they haven't banned collected company is that Birthing Pod hits creatures at all CMC, while collected company is limited to 3 and below. The fact that the field isn't 30% Collected Company decks is sort of pointless misdirection because that is just a result, not a reason. It does bring up the question of how they may handle a banning if, for example, they printed something powerful at 3 cmc that pushed Coco over the edge. Do they ban the 3 cmc creature in that case, or would they ban Collected Company itself? My guess is that it all depends on how the people at wizards feel about the two cards. Did the creature go above the acceptable limit like Deathrite Shaman, or is it that they printed a pushed creature and now Collected Company, being the known mistake it was, finally reached a point where it isn't safe to play in modern?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
I'm actually serious about them unbanning DRS, and equally serious about the second part of my statement saying "for the love of all people, don't do it!"
Why? Every previous unbanning occurred with considerable consensus among the playerbase that it was safe, which isn't true for Deathrite Shaman. Heck, there's recurring discussions that it's broken in Legacy. There is essentially no reason whatsoever to expect an unbanning for the card. Heck, if we were to rank the likelihood of any unban (not necessarily how good an unban would be, just the likelihood), I think I'd legitimately put Deathrite Shaman second to last on the list, with only Skullclamp being less likely.
The most plausible cards for them to unban are Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Splinter Twin. I can't see anything other than those getting unbanned in the near future. Not to say any of them will be, just that they're the only plausible candidates right now (maybe also Preordain, but the strength of Death's Shadow and Storm make that less likely than before).
So why do you think Deathrite Shaman, would have any chance of an unban, particularly ahead of cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, and Splinter Twin that have considerably more support amongst the playerbase to be unbanned?
Popularity more than anything else. It's definitely not the most likely to get unbanned if the group doing bans and unbans is taking some time to think about what cards could be more dangerous in modern than others, but that isn't necessarily the driving force behind an unban, that is the driving force behind banning something.
But... there isn't popularity behind an unban for Deathrite Shaman. A quick look at the unbanning poll will demonstrate that. The other cards I listed all have much more support behind an unbanning. Even if you want to say "well, that's just this forum!" (which has in the past repeatedly demonstrated a correlation between cards that get unbanned and cards that there's support in the polls to get unbanned), all the other message boards I've seen have suggested Mystic/BBE/Jace/Twin as unbannings, but pretty much never Deathrite Shaman.
Look at this forum: When people are talking about unbanning SFM, for example, is there any data in modern to indicate that it is a safe unban or are people mostly just going after an unban because it is a card they desperately want to play with in the format?
The card never showed itself to be a problem in the format, does not seem to be at a power level problematic for the format, goes into no Tier 1 deck, and I do know some people tested it in the past and said they didn't think it was overpowered, not sure how recently that was though.
But right now, my feeling is that they should never unban anything because they don't have any way to see how those older cards interact. The only way they can do that is to unban it in modern and then watch to see if some kind of natural disaster just got unleashed on everyone.
That's an insane attitude. By that logic, everything previously banned would still be banned despite the fact that, GGT aside, they've all been shown to be perfectly fine.
Why haven't they banned Collected Company still seems like a mystery, though. It is just going to keep "getting better" with time so they should ban it to maintain the precedent set by the Birthing Pod ban.
The "precedent" they set with the Birthing Pod ban is that if a deck is about 30% of the format, it'll get banned (keeping with previous precedents). Collected Company, last I checked, isn't even 10%.
There's nothing insane about not unbanning anything given the only evidence that anything is actually safe is from a few people running a few games and them saying that it is safe. Wizards bans cards based on getting gameplay information via MTGO, the Pro Tour (most likely), and possibly other sources. It's not hard to say they probably have more information on what cards should be or shouldn't be banned than any small group or gameplay run. Also, on Birthing Pod, the reasons that were given when looking at the original article are mentioned in the January 19, 2015 article. (Posting it here for easy reference, though)
Over the past year, Birthing Pod decks have won significantly more Grand Prix than any other Modern decks and compose the largest percentage of the field. Each year, new powerful options are printed, most recently Siege Rhino. Over time, this creates a growing gap between the strength of the Pod deck and other creature decks. Pod won five of the twelve Grand Prix over the past year, including winning the last two. The high percentage of the field playing Pod suppresses decks, especially other creature decks, that have an unfavorable matchup. In the interest of supporting a diverse format, Birthing Pod is banned.
The part highlighted in bold is the part of interest. Really, the only reason I can think of why they haven't banned collected company is that Birthing Pod hits creatures at all CMC, while collected company is limited to 3 and below. The fact that the field isn't 30% Collected Company decks is sort of pointless misdirection because that is just a result, not a reason.
There are a lot of cards that just get better as more creatures are printed. Birthing Pod took better advantage than most, but there's no reason to ban Eldritch Evolution, Quicksilver Amulet, Collected Company, Goryo's Vengeance just because creatures will become more powerful. If the individual cards start to saturate modern then their assumed further dominance would be a reason to ban them.
So Top8 looks like:
2 Death and Taxes (1 normal, 1 Eldrazi Taxes)
1 Infect
1 Storm
1 Affinity
1 Merfolk
1 Humans
1 Counters Company
Well...
Thank god i was watching Legacy at the Eternal weekend most of the time.
I think this shows a really healthy highly diverse meta game.
With that said, I notice no goyfs decks. No death's shadows. No primeval titans. No tron. Anyone worried about upcoming bans should be able to rest easy looking at results like this.
Next, anyone worried that a BBE unban would be to much for the format can't point to any results from this tournament to back that up.
While I agree that it is a diverse Top 8 in a currently diverse Modern meta, it is very noninteractive. None of those decks are trying to interact - Merfolk and Counters probably the most of the top 8.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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If it is a good deck that stands on its own, then why should it be threatened by Twin? Same goes for GDS and Storm. Why is it impossible for Twin to coexist with these decks? It coexisted just fine with Grixis Control and Delver, back before those both disappeared.
If I come off as aggressive it's because I thoroughly do not understand this stance of Twin "invalidating" other URx decks. If those other decks are "invalidated" it's because they were bad decks, and it has nothing to do with Twin. If those decks are strong enough to stand on their own, then players will continue to play them. At least in numbers similar to what Jeskai is now (which is aggregating all those former Delver/Twin players and probably those jaded on GDS).
Introducing new (or returning old) options should never be a bad thing, especially if that option promotes good gameplay. If that results in a reduction of other decks, it means people either didn't actually like those other decks or they were not good enough on their own compared to all the T1 decks.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Personally? I'm also opposed to pro points earning GP byes solely to reduce the odds of a pro facing a bad matchup with a rogue deck. Pros are not stars to me, the cards and decks are the stars. LSV, Reid Duke, EFRO in particular because he is a jackass with his "pro equity" concept, I have zero issue with their trying to make some money out of this, but WOTC is under this weird impression that certain individuals market the game when it is the mere existence of a pro circuit that does that. Hell I promised myself if I ever made top 8 at a Grand Prix I'd be cutting pro wrestling style promos. Would be entertaining considering most pro magic players talk about this game like it is something to be taken super seriously. League of Legends as an esport has energy, vitality, and hype, while MtG matches are called like its a golf tournament
-Rant Over
also no it didn't here's a pie chart and some hard numbers, surprised this is news since u have been talking about twin on here for the last year
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Your article there was just as full of bias as your recent one, which is why I always referenced Sheridan's, and continually referenced the GP Pittsburgh breakdown. In fact your selective categorizations and biases rival mine in both intensity and stubbornness; it's just in the opposite direction. But I'm glad you agree that removing a deck doesn't make the remaining decks any better.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
An easy example is Jund; it would be hard to argue against the observation that it used to be a good deck and now it is not very good. But the deck didn't change, or at least not much. Instead, the cards around the deck changed. Good or bad only exist in context.
Using that same logic, would Twin even be that good today? If anything, it would make GDS better, since running 6-8 discard spells, 1 mana Negates, and 1 mana fatties that don't die to Bolt seem pretty good. Most played cards in the format are discard spells and creature removal. If it was banned for being "too good" in the old context, I'm curious why people think it would continue to be that way today.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I guess this is the difference of opinions then. I don't really want what we seem to have now: exaggerated, high-variance decks with exaggerated, high-variance matchups and huge dependence on narrow hate cards and silver bullets. When the best decks are ALL powerful/fast/linear/narrow decks, I think it's a horrible and toxic environment where variance matters more than skill. I would much rather there be multiple decks that had 60/40, 55/45, 50/50, etc kinds of matchups, where your decisions and play lines mattered more than your pairings board, dice roll, and opening hand. I thought it was absolutely wonderful when BGx and URx were top of the format because so many of the games with or against those decks were rich and engaging. None of them held an oppressive hold on the meta, broken/fast strategies existed but weren't out of control, there was huge, rich diversity among the spread of Tier 1 and 2 decks.
I think the two biggest causes for the state of things today are the removal of Twin and the printing of cheap Eldrazi.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
The most plausible cards for them to unban are Bloodbraid Elf, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Splinter Twin. I can't see anything other than those getting unbanned in the near future. Not to say any of them will be, just that they're the only plausible candidates right now (maybe also Preordain, but the strength of Death's Shadow and Storm make that less likely than before).
So why do you think Deathrite Shaman, would have any chance of an unban, particularly ahead of cards like Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, and Splinter Twin that have considerably more support amongst the playerbase to be unbanned?
There is another element I haven't seen addressed yet, and that's perception. Whether it actually is or not, Twin is perceived by many to be the best URx shell; therefore the prevailing opinion becomes that if you're playing URx without Twin then you're doing it wrong. Especially now when we don't have access to much hard data, people's bias, experience, and perception of a deck will drive the success of it.
For an example, look at Eldrazi Tron right now. Players are running scared of this deck, yet upon looking at the little bit of hard data we do have from big events, it's failing to put up even decent numbers, let alone dominant. Despite it's poor performance on bigger stages, it still holds this reputation for being an unstoppable slog of Eldrazi creatures. It's perception doesn't line up with it's actual performance, and Splinter Twin produces a similar effect. Regardless of how it lines up against the field and against the top tier, the perception of what Twin can do will have an impact on players.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Don’t you people get tired of yourself always talking about the same stuff?
Twin is banned, the deck is dead!
Get over it and get on with you life!
Modern - Burn
EDH - Neheb the Eternal
@Vissah and others sick of the constant, circular, and at this point frankly petty, Twin discussion: just ignore the perpetrators. They won't shut up, but they also won't then be sucking you into arguments you cannot win (because they refuse to participate constructively), and there will be less Twin content in the thread overall.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Popularity more than anything else. It's definitely not the most likely to get unbanned if the group doing bans and unbans is taking some time to think about what cards could be more dangerous in modern than others, but that isn't necessarily the driving force behind an unban, that is the driving force behind banning something.
Look at this forum: When people are talking about unbanning SFM, for example, is there any data in modern to indicate that it is a safe unban or are people mostly just going after an unban because it is a card they desperately want to play with in the format? Even I have cards like that and one of them is SFM just so I can play my Death and Taxes list. What would be helpful for wizards is to have some kind of set up where they can get data on how games unfold with certain cards legal in the format. Probably an MTGO or MTG Arena event week where they have a special unbanned (or as I like to call, modern unglued/unhinged/Madcap modern), where people can play with previously banned cards. Maybe even throw the event at a GP once in a while. That way they can get to see cards work in the "modern format" and maybe make adjustments after a few bouts to the ban/restricted list.
But right now, my feeling is that they should never unban anything because they don't have any way to see how those older cards interact. The only way they can do that is to unban it in modern and then watch to see if some kind of natural disaster just got unleashed on everyone.
Why haven't they banned Collected Company still seems like a mystery, though. It is just going to keep "getting better" with time so they should ban it to maintain the precedent set by the Birthing Pod ban. I've got a feeling it's probably because doing it would be a final nail in the coffin for a lot of people, as I think the progression on that one went Birthing Pod -> Collected Company -> Hey we tried to make a fixed pod with Eldritch Evolution... never mind keep playing Collected Company, to now. They probably want to avoid the URx disaster.
To be frank, I'm more annoyed at bannings/unbannings as a casual modern player than people who probably play on a more regular basis.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Modern is in a "good" place, if you consider "good" being a bunch of high variance decks smashing into each other, usually ignoring the opponent, or playing past them or at them. It's defined by matchup lotteries and sideboard cards. It has gained popularity over the past year or so because of how unbelievably awful Standard was and players were looking for more things to do (and Legacy is prohibitively expensive). New players to Modern also probably like randomly getting free wins against much better players due to exactly the matchup and sideboard lotteries. It feels good to beat better players with a jank brew or some random T2/3 deck in a match they should have no business winning. Wizards says its healthy because they want to draw in more players by keeping the game more variance dependent and less skill dependent. You can play a lot of different decks and win with those decks. Not because of your skill, but just due to luck of the draw. If this is what the players want out of Modern as a whole, then I greatly disagree with the assessment of of health.
Well, you can blame ashton here. He posted a link to his hugely biased article, knowing it would generate buzz, and then asked for peoples' thoughts. Then, has the audacity to say that the "perpetrators won't shut up about Twin" after knowingly instigating discussion.
As a side note, perhaps it comes up often (which it does on FB groups, big site articles, reddit, and other forums) because it was banned under bogus and and untrue premises, its removal helped foster some of the worst times in Modern's history, it was nuked from existence instead of just powered down, and would be completely fine in today's meta.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Modern's power level is far from standard, as well as far from legacy and its banned list, with some of the cards on it (like splinter twin...jitte is just a personal wish), doesn't represent that power level.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Says someone who wasn't even playing when it was legal.
For reference, I don't make comments about Pod or Treasure Cruise or anything before spring 2015 because I wasn't playing Modern before 2015. I make a few comments about BBE, only because I think it's laughably tame in today's meta.
Edit: Day 2 breakdown of SCG CIN:
Grixis Death’s Shadow – 7
Counters Company – 7
U/R Gifts Storm – 4
Elves – 4
Infect – 4
Five-Color Death’s Shadow – 3
Scapeshift – 3
Affinity – 3
Eldrazi Tron – 3
Burn – 3
Jund – 3
B/W Eldrazi Taxes – 3
Abzan – 2
Jeskai Control – 2
G/B Tron – 2
Ad Nauseam – 1
8-Rack – 1
Living End – 1
U/G Merfolk – 1
Bant Retreat – 1
Abzan Company – 1
Humans – 1
G/W Tron – 1
G/W Company – 1
G/R Ponza – 1
Bant Spirits – 1
U/W Control – 1
Grixis Delver – 1
Death and Taxes – 1
I think the most interesting thing is seeing four copies of Infect; a deck that got destroyed every time it was on camera. It's also not surprising to see ETron down a bit, since the top end is flooded with powerful, fast, linear decks. Another snapshot.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
The card never showed itself to be a problem in the format, does not seem to be at a power level problematic for the format, goes into no Tier 1 deck, and I do know some people tested it in the past and said they didn't think it was overpowered, not sure how recently that was though.
That's an insane attitude. By that logic, everything previously banned would still be banned despite the fact that, GGT aside, they've all been shown to be perfectly fine.
The "precedent" they set with the Birthing Pod ban is that if a deck is about 30% of the format, it'll get banned (keeping with previous precedents). Collected Company, last I checked, isn't even 10%.
There's nothing insane about not unbanning anything given the only evidence that anything is actually safe is from a few people running a few games and them saying that it is safe. Wizards bans cards based on getting gameplay information via MTGO, the Pro Tour (most likely), and possibly other sources. It's not hard to say they probably have more information on what cards should be or shouldn't be banned than any small group or gameplay run. Also, on Birthing Pod, the reasons that were given when looking at the original article are mentioned in the January 19, 2015 article. (Posting it here for easy reference, though)
The part highlighted in bold is the part of interest. Really, the only reason I can think of why they haven't banned collected company is that Birthing Pod hits creatures at all CMC, while collected company is limited to 3 and below. The fact that the field isn't 30% Collected Company decks is sort of pointless misdirection because that is just a result, not a reason. It does bring up the question of how they may handle a banning if, for example, they printed something powerful at 3 cmc that pushed Coco over the edge. Do they ban the 3 cmc creature in that case, or would they ban Collected Company itself? My guess is that it all depends on how the people at wizards feel about the two cards. Did the creature go above the acceptable limit like Deathrite Shaman, or is it that they printed a pushed creature and now Collected Company, being the known mistake it was, finally reached a point where it isn't safe to play in modern?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
There are a lot of cards that just get better as more creatures are printed. Birthing Pod took better advantage than most, but there's no reason to ban Eldritch Evolution, Quicksilver Amulet, Collected Company, Goryo's Vengeance just because creatures will become more powerful. If the individual cards start to saturate modern then their assumed further dominance would be a reason to ban them.
seems like a pretty diverse top 8 to me. Shows that "no changes" for modern was the correct decision
With that said, I notice no goyfs decks. No death's shadows. No primeval titans. No tron. Anyone worried about upcoming bans should be able to rest easy looking at results like this.
Next, anyone worried that a BBE unban would be to much for the format can't point to any results from this tournament to back that up.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)